I know this is a Bussekin forum, but since they won't make a bombproof folder (Rat Trap doesn't count since I've only seen pictures of one)....I thought this would be okay. Tom / Randy if I'm violating a rule ... nuke the thread and shame me publicly. I like tar and feathers.

What's the verdict on ZT folders?

I don't think it will be Verboten, but I still like the tar and feather idea. I guess it is just the allure of something you don't get to do every day.

Oh I forgot to say that almost everyone that I have heard has a ZT, really likes them.

They make a folder that suits about every purpose in such a blade. I have a couple (301, 350 and 550) but for a long time they have been rare and expensive here (thanks to the new repealed import regulations from 2011) so they were not economical. Some will like the styling, some will not, such is the way of the world. They are however well made from quality material with an excellent warranty. If you find one that you like in hand then I think you can't go wrong. For the record my favourite is the 350.

I like some more than others and have had...about 5 or so and have 1 now, the 0452. It's a beauty...but big for me.

The 0770 is a great folder, more lightly built compared to most other ZTs, but plenty tough and is a great cutter. Most of the other ZTs I've had are are to thick/hard use for my needs. I tend to prefer better cutters/slicers for my folders.

Thanks for the replies (and offer to T&F me).

I had a 700 I bought on clearance several years ago, but the funky design didn't work for me.

I'm thinking about adding one for "neighborhood walks" but have read they're typically very heavy / bulky. I recently acquired a nice gentlemen's folder through the extreme generosity of a friend and it caused me to rethink my cheap Spyderco folders (Delica4 and Endura4).

ZT seems to be in that sweet spot between "cheap" and "overly expensive".

On paper I like: 301, 350, 550, 561.

Andy said he likes the 350 (most cost effective on my list). Rich likes the 770 which I hadn't researched. I'll have to look into that model.

BTW I ordered a 350 with black blade, but am thinking about a higher end model too.

Yes, the 301 has a great "presence" but the 350 is my practical choice.

Mine has the Tiger Stripe blade, it certainly also looks the business...

Thought was finally going to make the step up from the Kershaw Blur to a ZT 350. A week or so ago they where on sale for $80 (pre-order) on Amazon. But, I fell asleep before placing the order. When I woke up I they where back in stock and regular price .

Stinking OT means you have the money but never the time!

But, I love my Blur and have always wanted to step up to the ZT knives. The price is just a little too steep for me to make the jump. And after a guy dropped my favorite Blur in a reservoir it's a bit harder for me to see edcing a $150-$350 knife.

I paid substantially more for my 350 than $80. Report to follow upon arrival.

I held a 566 at Smokey Mountain Knife Works back in May last year and ALMOST bought it. BUT considering how much that vacation cost us I had to pass. We didn't want to start using the Credit card again.

I bought a 566 a couple of years ago when Midway put em on sale for $100. I exist in an urban environment so a folder is the only EDC option for me. I wanted something in Elmax to upgrade from a Kershaw S30V folder (though it's also been a great knife). I clip it to my hip everyday and I've been happy with it. It's kept its edge well, though I admit I haven't abused it.

Spock,
You prefer ELMAX over S30V? Have you used S35VN?

Gary, butting in here, but my Chris Reeve knives are S35VN and I like it. Mine takes and holds a REALLY good edge.

You're not butting in. I've been looking at various ZTs and it seems like they feature S30V, S35VN, and ELMAX. I know very little about these materials.

The 350 being delivered today is S30V, but it seems like ZT's choice of material is rather arbitrary. Their "flagship" 300 series has S30V, but "less expensive" options have more expensive ELMAX.

Perhaps the material selection isn't arbitrary...maybe its knife design/mission driven?

I had a 0780 that I really liked despite the fact that it had thumb studs and a liner lock, which I don't like. It was a nice little knife. ZT discontinued it before they ever finished the first production run because they wanted to move in a different direction. Very few were ever made.

Adam,
I googled the 780. It is a fair departure from ZT's norm. The 700 I had was much the same. I didn't care for that one.

Well, I have the 350 in hand. My impressions to follow.

Zero Tolerance 0350 First Impressions

PROS

Assisted Opening - this knife opens easily with the flipper!

Sharp - this knife is scary sharp!

Jimping - strong but not sharp (surprisingly pleasant)


NEUTRAL

Blade Size - It seems a little "deep" for its "length". Can't decide what I think yet. Time will tell.

Handle Size - Being small makes it easier to carry, but it feels a little cramped.


CONS

Thumb Stud Opening - Impossible.

Pocket Clip - the clip is so tight/strong I'm afraid it'll tear the pocket of denim trousers!

Liner Lock Ease of Use - the design makes folding the knife less than ideal.

Weight - this knife is a beast. Definitely not the lightweight Benchmade currently clipped in the dress trousers I'm wearing.

The other Ken Onion ZT designs make the 350 look downright small and meek.

The pivot on the larger KO designs are my favorite of any folding knife. Heavy duty!

Howdy Architect,

Apologies, "upgrade" was a poor choice of words on my part. I didn't have any Elmax knives at all, so the 566 was my first (and still only). Prior to that I'd been carrying a Kershaw Avalanche S30V that I bought for $50. For me, the edge on the 566 has held up better (less sharpening needed) than the Avalanche did when I carried it, but who knows, YMMV. I try to save my abusive tasks for my SR101 Bussekin. Maybe S30V is tougher and can withstand more abuse than Elmax?

No experience with S35VN.

Spock, thanks for the reply.

I went ahead and bought a few more ZT to see what I thought of them....

301 (S30V)
350 (S30V)
550 (S35VN)
561 (ELMAX)

These seem to be the most popular / recommended of the lot. This will allow me to test different blade materials, and opening types.

The 550 is a Gen3.

Now THAT's a purchase!

Who needs to retire?

You know now that I look at your list and think about it again, my Chris Reeve knives MIGHT be S30V. I'm not sure when he switched to S35VN but I have had my knives for quite a few years now.

I'm still undecided on what role the 350 fills. I like the knife, but the weight makes me wonder..."why not step up to the next size"?

I've never used S30V or S35VN ... or ELMAX. This will be interesting.

.... I went the other way, I love the 301, great blade, but for carry on gear or in field pants etc. I got the 350 as it is easily carried in jeans etc.

Ah SWEET, man!!! I'm looking forward to reading your takes on the various alloys I really like the Elmax. It's why I was so disappointed that SY never offered the Scrapmaxes for sale on the website. I'da loved to have a thin Elmax fixed blade for the kitchen.

Spyderco Delica4 for size comparison:

The one on the left has my favorite pivot. I think the Emerson ZT collabs have it too. Now if they would just put it on a knife I like.

NICE knives Gary. I've heard nothing but good about ZT knives. I have a question thought, does the spiderco have liners or are they just the resin scales?

That spiderco reminds me of the Para 2. A knife I might one day buy just cause I like it's size and the way it looks.

I think the delicas and enduras have nested skeletonized steel liners. I hope Gary doesn't mind me answering.

I don't figure he will Adam. And thanks. Was just wondering. I have a couple of "look alike" (sorta) benchmades and they don't have liners.

Gary, check out the Kizer4416 knives (compares to the big ZT you got with the tiger striped blade). I have one and IT IS NICE.

The Spyderco Pacific Salt I had had frn handles without liners. I liked that knife, but it grew legs and left me.

Interesting Spidy. It probably got to lusting for saltier waters and headed back to the Pacific. I've heard they are good knives. It is the one that won't rust, right?

I am one click away from ordering the Kizer 3416A2.

Most of the ZT knives are nice for sure, but most of them just don't do all that much for me, at least the ones I've actually seen.

Adam, no worries at all - saves me from typing out answers on my iPhone!

Randy, I currently have 4 Soydercos and they all have stainless liners nested into the resin handles.

Randy, I like the look of the Kizer and the price seems reasonable.

Quick review of the ZTs:

301 = beast! This feels GREAT and as if it'll take any abuse you'd give it. It is, however, a BIG knife. It's also heavy. I'm worried sharpening a recurve edge will be difficult. LOVE the assisted opening.

350 = my least favorite for "feel". It is lighter and smaller than the 301, but not enough to justify the weight. Feels "cheaper" too. Recurve and assisted opening same as the 301.

550 = HARD TO OPEN! It's tight and no flipper. I opened it about 100 times and it's smoothing out to feel like it's on bearings. Super quality knife. If it had a flipper I'd rate this very highly.

561 = Surprisingly light for its size. Feels great in the hand. A little hard to open (will it smooth out / wear in)? Nice blade size and profile, but this is a BIG pocket knife.

At this time all I've done is handle them. Based upon initial impressions, my order of preference (favorite to least favorite):

301
561
350
550

I'm going to handle them more, and figure out where they fit into my life. I've never been a folder person, and still feel a fixed blade is better...but these are so brutally stout I have confidence they'd not let me down. It's now a matter of deciding what I need out of a folder and which two best fill the role.

I know one of these will end up in my wife's purse. She carries a few survival essentials (lighter, water purification tablets, flashlight and knife). One of these ZT will be much better in this role than the Spyderco Endura 4 she currently has. She's already approved the extra weight.

Another will end up being my "causal wear" knife. I already have a gentlemen's folder for work so the ZT will be my "other times" carry knife. My work life is tame and doesn't necessarily need a stout folder (have a small survival kit in my briefcase that MIGHT get a ZT instead of a Swamp Warden). The rest of the time I feel under equipped with a light duty knife. This is where I think a ZT excels - as long as I can stand carrying a 7 ounce folder!

Gary. Kizer also makes a Mini version, called the KI3416 with a 2.5 inch blade that is .120 inch thick. Here it is


Kizer Cutlery, 3416A2, 2.5 in S35VN Drop Point Blade, Linerlock, Green Handle Folder

This knife is one of the smaller folders made by Kizer, which makes it perfect for your everyday carry.
The satin finished S35VN blade is a drop point style that measures 2.5 inches.
The nicely green textured G-10 handle scales are curved and have a finger groove so that it fits perfect in your hand.
The end of the handle has a lanyard hole and a tip-up titanium pocket clip so you can change up the way you carry it.
The lock mechanism on this mini Kizer is a liner lock that is made
of Rainbow anodized 64I4V Titanium to insure that when opened it is secure in even the toughest jobs.
The blade opens smoothly using the ambidextrous thumb studs.

Specifications:
Overall: 6.125"
Blade Length: 2.50"
Blade Thickness: .12"
Blade Material: CPM-S35VN
Blade Finish: Satin
Blade Type: Plain Edge
Blade Style: Drop Point
Handle Length: 3.625"
Handle Material: Green Textured G-10
Open: Thumb Stud - ambidextrous
Lock Mechanism: Linerlock
Pocket Clip: Titanium Tip up
Weight: 2.9 oz.

Country of Origin : China
IF you are interested I can PM you a link to the cheapest price I've found for it.

I have carried the full size version for a few weeks and although it is a large knife, I think that it carries nicely. And when it opens up, that 3/16 inch thick blade combined with the liner lock gives you a great sense that it will handle anything.

For you Randy:

OK, Thanks Gary.

I think I like the looks of the Tan handled ZT the best.

Randy,
I'm a big fan of FRN Soyderco knives. Over the past 8-9 years I've had about 10 of them. They're light, lock open SOLIDLY, and are super slicers. They weigh so little you forget you're carrying one. The trade off is strength - these are SUPER LIGHT DUTY knives. They have very little lateral strength, and the VG10 blades are easy to chip / roll. However, VG10 sharpens out easily. Ironically, my current batch of Sypdercos haven't been used to cut a thing! I used the previous knives enough to determine their purpose.

My wife liked using a Ladybug in our garden and Pocket EDC another Endura 4 on the farm for 4 years.

If you accept their limitation - you'd love the festherweight.

I'm going to put a Kizer (full size) on my shopping list.

Randy, I agree the 561 is the best looking knife. It's a Hinderer.

BTW: the purple Endura is my wife's purse knife (to be replaced by a ZT).

That's ONE of my problems. I tend to be abusive at times to my knives. That is why I am looking at the Kizer. I almost lost the point on the Christmas Kershaw the "Grand Kids" got me and had inscribed with PaPaw. I wouldn't take a million dollars for that blade and figure I should put it up and only carry it sparingly.

Then FRN Spydercos are not for you. They won't take abuse.

I figured that was your I AM THE KING blade. Purple is the color of Royalty in the Bible.

I'm curious to test ELMAX. Cutting paper that 301 performed much better than the ELMAX 561.

Well, I figured my attempt at fooling you would be foiled.

Haha, well since we are confessing, I DO have a Bible that is covered in Purple (medium light purple) leather. Hey, it was on sale.

Well I ordered the Small Kizer. Now I will have the full size (on my GHB) and the small in my pocket.

Excellent! Let me know what you think of the small Kizer when it comes in.

I sure will. I hope it will be "Just the thing".

My 550 is the same Gary, annoyingly hard to open, you seem to have to find just the right spot or angle to push on the stud to get the blade out. It feels (to me) the stud is located too close to the pivot. When you find the spot it is nice. For this reason the 550 has had much less use then I would have thought, I even had a custom scale made for it in Black and Tan G10. It is also a Gen1 that cost over $400 here when the customs regulations made them MUCH harder to get.

Well, if that group of ZTs don't do it for you GRy, you could always flip them all and pick up a 0777...that folder is the sweetness!

If you like your spydies, might be worth trying a military. I love mine and plenty tough. The southard is capable too...and very high quality.

Andy,
They should have added a flipper to the 550! It feels "Luger smooth" when it finally starts to open, but you're 100% correct - you have to find that sweet spot and it's really close to the scales.

Rich,
I might have to try a 777. I really like the cutting ability of my Spydercos, but fear their flimsiness. If the Military and Southard are similar but more stout I'll have to look for a real.

Anyone able to tell me the difference between a "military" and "para military 2"?

I carried the 301 in my jeans pocket today, and didn't even notice it. My walk about town load today consisted of:

S&W Shield
Spare Mag
ZT 301
Lighter
Leatherman Serac3 Light
Keys
Wallet
Phone
Money Clip

This is my usual off-work set up. The extra few ounces offered by the ZT didn't really have any impact on my comfort. Used it to open a box. Cuts cleanly.

Easy on the para 2 and military- size and compression lock vs. Liner lock. Both are great folders though. Loved my para, but after I got the military, I let the para go. Both are really as tough as I expect from a folder. My military is a in case of deployment folder...for the weak side. One of the last folders I would sell.

I love my ZT0560 although not as much as my Hinderer xm18 3.5

I really like my 561 (same as your 560 except tan) but it's a little hard to open. The assisted opening models are very handy.

I wore the 301 on a five mile walk very late last night. Also carried my Leatherman Serac3, Glock 19 with TLR , Safariland ALS lightbearing holster, spare mag, keys, etc.

Didn't notice the weight of the 301 at all.

The 560s do brake in a bit but yeah they take determination to open.

I was just in Florida, and took my Rodent 6 and ZT 0301 along. The 0301's durable construction was a comfort while kayaking in 'gator infested waters.

I tested the R6 against the 301 on some fresh cut Palm "branches". First off, if you haven't tried to cut a branch off a Palm tree you can't appreciate how strong that material is! I was really surprised. Unfortunately, I didn't take any photos, but the tests included:

* Hacking (301) / Chopping (R6)
* Slicing
* Feathering
* Notching

I started with the 301, and was impressed by its performance against TOUGH palm. It would bite deep (hacking and slicing) but would hit a wall and stop cold regardless of the pressure I exerted.

Next I tested the R6 (which needed its edge touched up BEFORE the tests). It made the 301's performance look weak. The R6 could bite deeper, slice longer, and felt overall better.

This isn't a surprise (testing a 6.5" fixed blade against a 3.75" folder). Overall, I'm very impressed by the ZT. Its now my non-work EDC folder.

As a side note: I didn't see a single 'gator the entire time I was in Florida. It does, however, make me feel more manly to envision a Crocodile Dundee incident....

Gators are like Puppies compared to an Estuarine Crocodiles... That said...I don't want to be nibbled on by a Puppy either...

ANYTHING that can poison or eat me or even trample me to death I want to avoid, or IF I can't avoid them I want a BIG gun!

If I'm will you Skunk, and we get chased by future belts/wallets/handbags, I too want you to have the BIG gun...and no shoes.

That was my thinking in Africa....I only need to outrun ONE other person......

Yeah yeah, make fun of the old fat guy. But remember, all I have to do is wing you!

I have some great pics of the Croc warnings here !!! Only place I have actually seen a croc eating someone was in Mozambique though...

There's something I could live fine w/out seeing 1st hand.

You and me both.. but it does serve as a not so friendly reminder that we humans are NOT always at the top of the pecking order.

I have photographed one croc out here that did go on to take a human (well one that was known).

Humans have fragile bodies and inflated views of their position in nature. All things in nature are in constant movement, and this is often diametrically opposed to what we want or need. I've heard a lot of outdoors-people say "mother nature is always trying to kill you". I disagree. Nature (weather, water, elements, whatever) doesn't care about you.

Wild animals view you either as a threat or (tasty) treat.

I'd rather not end up finding my way through an animal's digestive system.

Gary, you are SO right. Nature doesn't care one way or the other about us. Nature is what it is and always will be.

YUP, we ARE fragile, no matter what we think. If you were to put us "In the wild" like the animals are,with only our wits and what God naturally gave us, most of us would die within a month.

I was about to say humans are top of the food chain in New England, then remembered the new and large population of Great Whites that has been established around Cape Cod.

"tastes like chicken"

Actually I have heard we taste like Pork

Randy,
Gross.

I was talking about 'gator and 'croc.

In all (disgusting and distasteful...you'll get the pun shortly) seriousness:

I've read several survival novels wherein people are referred to as "long pork".

Yep....Long Pork is the given term, does not seem to develop the nice crackling that a hog does though... getting good fava beans and a decent chianti is often the most difficult part...

A pic I took in 2008 of the Estuarine Crocodile know as "Michael Jackson"...



And a news story in which he is discussed in part...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-30/nt-croc-attack-inquests-bill-scott-and-lanh-van-tran/6899954

Disturbing.

OH, My bad.

YUP I have heard that numerous times as well.

I was teasing. My original comment was about people.

This thread has taken a turn for the decidedly disgusting. While I can speak extemporaneously regarding cannibalism in dire situations (Stalingrad anyone?) I found it to be a forbidden topic on most survival forums for obvious reasons. This, a family oriented forum, might also be inappropriate.

Anyone want to talk about knives?

NOTE: I neither condone or encourage the consumption of humans. My knowledge is related to deep research into human behavior while subjected to extreme survival circumstances. I conducted corresponding research into contemporary views regarding depravitity to gauge the likelihood of savage behavior in modern times. The topic generally enraged uninformed individuals who espoused a utopian vision of the end times wherein all people would join hands and sing kumbaya. This is in obvious contradiction to all historic evidence regarding human behavior in critical circumstances. The level of self delusion I encountered, ironically, reinforced my concerns about a canabalistic apocalyptic scenario as many in the now defunct "prepper movement" where woefully under prepared for the realities of a world without the rule of law. Therein these individuals would have participated (willingly or unwillingly) in the creation of the very environment they denied had existed.

We must all remember that our "first world" view of food has changed. Most individuals do not grasp the fragility of our food supply and distribution systems. Thus, they anticipate the never ending availability of Twinkies at Wal-Mart. Their cupboards are as bare as their knowledge of food production, food acquisition and preservation.

The "first world" has never been more susceptible to a food crisis than now.

I cannot buy a bell pepper made in the United States locally. GMO is also invading every corner of US agriculture. If you're uniformed about the potentially castrophic effect of GMO food ask a biologist what they think about people releasing invasive species into nature. They'll likely tell you about the havoc created by the apple snail and others. Short story: they destroy the indigenous species. Now, what happens when an organization creates "patented food" that cross breds with indigenous species? Monsanto sues the farmer for patent infringement. They have not been defeated in court. This is a serious issue on two fronts: heirloom seeds are disappearing (the only type of seed capable of producing the same plant from harvasted seeds) and one mega corporation is exerting increasing control over our food supply: they will literally sue you if their product falls out of a grain truck and sprouts on your property.

Thankfully it is largely a non issue for most folks.

YUP, Knives are a good subject. I think My GTI Folder (large) will be a good one for the PSP (personal survival Pouch) we've been talking about. BUT it would make for a good excuse to buy a new folder though.

Oh an almost any of the ZT folders would work because of their Bomb Proof Build.

If there was ever a thread that got off topic...this is it! Lol

GREAT minds often wander Rich, that's how we've come up with all the good stuff we have. ONE thought leads to another.

Rich is infinitely more qualified to speak of people's mental abilities, issues, etc than I would ever hope to be. My research was specific to one issue. I hope I didn't step on your clinical toes!

Back to ZT...

I sent my 301 and 561 back to ZT for a sharpening. I bought both "NIB" from individuals. The 301 seller claimed light use and it's edge reflected this. The 561 seller outright lied. The 561 was FAR from NIB with considerable edge issues.

After testing the 301 and finding it satisfactory I decided I wanted to test it and the 561 with a factory edge. $13 worth of shipping plus $7 KAI handling fees will yield factory edged ZTs.

I'll post a follow up with turn around time, edge quality and of course ... Testing!

Bummer you had to send them back Gary. MOST of my knives when I sharpen them I use a shallower angle than factory. Don't really know how this has came to be but I guess that over the last 50+ years of sharpening (or trying to) knives it is just what I automatically default to. MOST OF THE TIME it works for me, so why try to change it now.

It's just a minor annoyance. I'd like to test them with a factory edge or I'd sharpen both at home. I'm new to the blade material so I'd like to proceed with factory edges.

I suspect my gallows humour was lost in translation ergo the fava beans and wine (Dr Lecter to Agent Starling in Silence of the Lambs ).

Andy,
I could smell what you were cooking all the way over here!

Don't particularly like brains. Had Hog brains From time to time growing up, mainly with scrambled eggs. Now IF I put enough ketchup on it I could handle it OK, but it just wasn't my "Cup of Tea". Oh and it wasn't lost Andy, I just had to break for lunch.

Nope. Ain't gonna do it. I'll leave that line alone.

So we're back to that...

Didn't we use to have a barf emoge?

Do you mean this one?

Stopped at a Mennonite store yesterday to get some home made bread. They had Head Cheese and it made me think of this thread. (SOrry Gary)

I have head cheese every fall. It usually comes out in green clumps when I sneeze.