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.270 Win or .30-06 #260843 01/20/09 04:46 AM
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reconseed Offline OP
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I am getting ready to buy a very nice hunting rifle. I have decided on the rifle and its just over $1,000.00 MSRP.

I have decided to get the Remington Model 700 XCR (Xtreme conditions rifle). Its rated as the most tough and durable model 700 on the market, non-custom. The steel and coating these use on all parts of this rifle are beyond belief. I held one the other day at the store and I fell in love.

I am trying to decide if I want to go with a .270 or a .30-06. I like the longer distance advantage of the .270 because its a flatter shooting round in terms of trajectory but the .30-06 is one of the most popular rounds in the world and arguably the best all around high powered rifle cartridge in the world. You can hunt anything from coyote to grizzly bear with this rifle all by changing your loads.

If you were me, what would you get? This XCR rifle will last me the rest of my life so I want to make sure I get one that I will love and can shoot forever.


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260844 01/20/09 05:33 AM
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Since you will be hunting with it, the .30-06. I used to be concerned about recoil but it's really no biggie. I have a .25-06(which I love) and its good for coyote to whitetail, but for anything bigger the .30-06 is standard. Ammo availability is huge and you can't go wrong with that caliber. Plus, you probably won't be pushing distances that will require such a flat trajectory if you are hunting appropriately.


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Art] #260845 01/20/09 06:31 AM
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I chose 7mm to split the difference between 270 & 30-06 (7mm Rem Mag & 7mm-08). But that's me.

I'd pick the 270 over the 30-06 since I tend to prefer a flatter shooting cartridge but realistically both are great choices.

I'm sure many bears have been taken with 30-06 but if I was going after Grizzly I'd want more gun than a 30-06.

Enjoy your new rifle. Don't forget to budget for a good scope...they're spendy.


F5 like you mean it! JYD #15
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Kraz] #260846 01/20/09 11:26 AM
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The issue of flatter shooting is something easily resolved by getting a laser range finder if you are going to be shooting at very long ranges for certain types of quarry. Distance usually gives you time....but equally the wind drift can be just as important at distance. A shot taken at long range needs to be "composed" for these reasons and error margins favour for me the 30-06 as you have a far greater wealth of bullets to choose from in .30 calibre which have a higher BC rating than those in .270....but equally using this range of bullets well depends on the twist rate of your rifle.

The most important thing you need to consider is "will I be reloading" for the rifle or shooting factory ammo? You have far greater "Match Factory Ammo" in .30-06 if you don't re-load and want to shoot and hunt at distance. Nearly all distance hunting involves Match bullets because of the better BC.

However, most hunting is probably 100 yards or less, and here flatter trajectory does'nt enter into it...but bullet choice would depending on what you were hunting...so again the 30-06 is the winner.

Another point to mention is whether the magazine in the rifle will be long enough to take bullets ( on the presumption you elect to try re-loading ) which are seated far enough out of the case so that they are tucked in neatly to the lands of the rifle when loaded. Nothing improves accuracy on a factory gun more than seating bullets into the lands of the rifling. Factory ammo has them "jumping" into the barrel. If seated into the lands you reduce the "variables" on your group when the bullet jumps and the group shrinks dramatically.

If your local store has a 30-06 in stock ask the salesman if he would let you measure the distance to the lands. The quickest and easiest way is to get a none primed 30-06 case and the bullet you would like to use...it needs to be a HPBT as these seat out the longest as they are very pointy...use a 200g Sierra Match King HPBT for a 30-06...you have a 24 inch barrel with a 1-10 twist so it should stabilise these...and loosely fit it in the end of the case and holding the rifle vertical so when you open the bolt the round does'nt drop out onto the floor...close the bolt to seat the bullet...open the bolt and covering the ejection port gently let the round come into your hand. If the round can then still fit into the magazine and be able to be compressed down so other rounds can be loaded on top so you can use the magazine with rounds seated into the lands...you will have the best ability to develop the rifle to be a tack driver which can be re-loaded from the magazine. If this does'nt work...you will need to single load your rounds which group best for long range shooting.

No big deal on this though...I single load all my rounds when shooting at long range...it focus's the mind on "one shot...one kill". But a quick follow up is handy sometimes...you just need to practise this if single loading.

Nice choice of rifle as well...there are more accessories made for the Rem 700 than any other rifle...no matter what level you want to shoot at...that rifle can form the basis for doing it.Ask how much the pro trigger option is and whether it comes on this rifle calibre combo...a good trigger is a real blessing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260847 01/20/09 02:45 PM
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I chose the '06 because you can go from the low 120's to 220 gr bullets. The '06 is one of the most versatile calibers in the world and ammo can be found just about anywhere.


Men you can't trust, women you can't trust, beasts you can't trust, but Bussekin steel you can trust
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: sumoj275] #260848 01/20/09 04:18 PM
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You sound like a very serious marksman, Steel Fan...

Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: sumoj275] #260849 01/20/09 05:38 PM
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reconseed Offline OP
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I chose the '06 because you can go from the low 120's to 220 gr bullets. The '06 is one of the most versatile calibers in the world and ammo can be found just about anywhere.

This is why I think Im going to go with th3e .30-06


Steelfan - be honest, you really work at Bass Pro in the gun department. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


thanks for the help fellas.


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260850 01/20/09 07:48 PM
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A real good question is what are you going to use it for?

Also a 1000 dollar rifle deserves a nice scope. Think Gold Ring 4.5x14 50mm or something similar. Leupold has a great Scrap Yard like warranty and the clarity of the scopes is great as is return to zero etc. Also, a nice rifle deserves an excellent HARD CASE. It will protect your investment. Pelican again has a great SYKC warranty.

Match grade ammo can easily shrink you group size from 2 inches to .5 inches or less. Federal Premium is hard to beat, also most hunters will never shoot a high power rifle more than a few hundred times in their entire life. SO if you had a thousand rounds of good ammo you and you kids would be set.


My dad and bros all shoot 700s and they are all nice accurate rifles. I too am big on synthetic for many reasons. It won't change you point of impact when it is humid/wet like a wood stocked rifle can. Scratches are not the end of the world, less to maintain etc.

The 06 is a great one gun arsenal. Many of the armed forces snipers are equipped with 700s in 308. By design it is more accurate, something about the length/width ratio. Look at the 1000 yard contest at Camp Perry. 308 with 168 grain Sierra Match King Boat Tail Hollow Points almost always wins. A 308 should be able to work well for almost all North American game. Furthermore, there is more data on the 308 than any ther cartridge(thank you US military).

I love the 308 and ask shooter and some of the other guys on the SRKW Forum and they will agree.

But you can't go wrong in 06, 270 is a heck of a caliber too.


Join the NRA JYD #69 If a 6 turned out to be 9 Join the NRA
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: imaginefj] #260851 01/20/09 08:00 PM
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I'd go with the 30-06. It is truly an Americon icon. Like you said you can hunt anything with it, and with the right match ammo it will be a real tack driver on the range. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


If you are going through Hell.....Keep going! Winston Churchill.
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: REM762] #260852 01/20/09 10:23 PM
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\\
No question between the two....30-06... here's a sample of similar projectile, I even list the .270 with a higher B.C. rating to help it out. still not enough to justify a choice over the performance and available uses the 30-06 has over it.

Numbers are listed in order starting with range, FPS, energy, bullet path and M.O.A. numbers are starting factory loads. since I don't know if you reload.



Trajectory for Federal Cartridge .277 dia. 270 Win. 150 gr. Nosler Partition at 2850 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.466 0.466 0.466 0.466 0.466
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2280 2280 2280 2280
Wind Direction is: 3.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 2.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 2.0 Vertical: 0.0
The Firing Point speed of sound is: 1120.27 fps
The bullet does not drop below the speed within the max range specified.
Altitude: 4500 Feet Humidity: 70 Percent Pressure: 29.53 in/Hg
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range(Yards),Velocity(Ft/Sec),Energy(Ft/Lbs),Bullet Path(inches),Bullet Path(1 MoA),Wind Drift(inches),Wind Drift(1 MoA),Time of Flight(Seconds)
0,2850.0,2704.9,-2.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0000
100,2680.6,2392.8,1.42,1.4,0.12,0.1,0.1085
200,2517.5,2110.5,0.0,0.0,0.48,0.2,0.2240
300,2360.0,1854.7,-6.91,-2.2,1.1,0.4,0.3471
400,2208.2,1623.8,-20.07,-4.8,2.02,0.5,0.4785
500,2062.0,1415.9,-40.36,-7.7,3.27,0.6,0.6191
600,1921.6,1229.6,-68.84,-11.0,4.87,0.8,0.7699
700,1787.4,1063.9,-106.75,-14.6,6.86,0.9,0.9318
800,1660.1,917.8,-155.55,-18.6,9.29,1.1,1.1060
900,1540.6,790.4,-216.98,-23.0,12.19,1.3,1.2936
1000,1429.9,680.9,-293.09,-28.0,15.6,1.5,1.4959


Trajectory for Federal Cartridge .308 dia. 30-06 150 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip at 2910 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.434 0.434 0.434 0.434 0.434
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2328 2328 2328 2328
Wind Direction is: 3.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 2.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 2.0 Vertical: 0.0
The Firing Point speed of sound is: 1120.27 fps
The bullet does not drop below the speed within the max range specified.
Altitude: 4500 Feet Humidity: 70 Percent Pressure: 29.53 in/Hg
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range(Yards),Velocity(Ft/Sec),Energy(Ft/Lbs),Bullet Path(inches),Bullet Path(1 MoA),Wind Drift(inches),Wind Drift(1 MoA),Time of Flight(Seconds)
0,2910.0,2820.0,-2.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0000
100,2725.9,2474.4,1.34,1.3,0.12,0.1,0.1065
200,2549.2,2164.0,0.0,0.0,0.5,0.2,0.2203
300,2379.2,1885.0,-6.7,-2.1,1.16,0.4,0.3422
400,2215.7,1634.8,-19.54,-4.7,2.13,0.5,0.4728
500,2058.6,1411.2,-39.48,-7.5,3.44,0.7,0.6133
600,1908.2,1212.6,-67.63,-10.8,5.14,0.8,0.7647
700,1765.1,1037.5,-105.34,-14.4,7.27,1.0,0.9282
800,1630.1,884.8,-154.23,-18.4,9.87,1.2,1.1051
900,1504.3,753.6,-216.22,-22.9,12.99,1.4,1.2968
1000,1389.1,642.6,-293.61,-28.0,16.67,1.6,1.5044


JYD #98
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: fastcamo] #260853 01/21/09 01:27 AM
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Momaw Offline
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If your program displays those as tables, you can preserve the columns by using the forum tag "code". Like so:

[[color:"blue"]code[/color]]
lots of data
[[color:"blue"]/code[/color]]

Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Momaw] #260854 01/21/09 02:08 AM
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The three most common calibers I fire are:

6.5 x 55 (Roughly equivalent to a .243)
30-30 (Fired from my fave bush gun, the Marlin 336 lever, with iron sights)
30-06

The 30-06 is my fave for nice, all around firing. I've got a Browning A-bolt, X-bolt, and a Tikka Hunter in 30-06, and love them all (Can you tell I love my bolt actions.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). Personally, I've never been a fan of Remington for anything but their shotties. I've had nothing but bad luck with their rifles. If you do get the 700 XCR, I hope you don't have the same experience I've had. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

P.S. -For nice scopes, look into the Burris line. Not many of the guys have tried them out, but I find that some of their scopes are almost as good as a Leupold, without the equivalent cost. That's just my opinion anyway. Maybe someone else can suggest better.

Last edited by tyger75; 01/21/09 02:10 AM.

JYD#70 Warning! There are more than just dogs in this yard!
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: tyger75] #260855 01/21/09 04:09 AM
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Optics Talk has several suggestions for scopes. After much research I went with the Zeiss conquest and it kicks butt. The Leupold's are great also but just check out a Zeiss and you will see a slight advantage. I got mine at SWFA and they do a price match thing so I got mine for 390$ shipped. You could probably get the Bushnell 4200 Elite for 250$ shipped if you call and give them a competitors web site with a price in that range. (Outdoor Superstore has it @ 255$)


JYD #66 Endure to the End Long live the Brotherhood of the Yard
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260856 01/21/09 01:22 PM
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I chose the '06 because you can go from the low 120's to 220 gr bullets. The '06 is one of the most versatile calibers in the world and ammo can be found just about anywhere.

This is why I think Im going to go with th3e .30-06


Steelfan - be honest, you really work at Bass Pro in the gun department. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


thanks for the help fellas.

LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The way you guys have been buying up all the stock in these stores of late....I wish I did work there on commission!! Hope you enjoy the 30-06...if that's what you go for....in fairness both calibres are good ones <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260857 01/21/09 04:00 PM
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I got my Burris 3-9x40 for $100 Canadian; that's roughly $80 USD. I love it, and recommend it to anyone who wants to try a really nice, inexpensive scope.


JYD#70 Warning! There are more than just dogs in this yard!
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: tyger75] #260858 01/21/09 06:08 PM
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I think I am just going to wait and get the Remington 700 XCR in 30-06. it might take the store a while to get it but oh well. I can wait I guess.


I saw a Russian SKS today at the store for $00 cash. I almost bought that instead - what do ya think????


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260859 01/21/09 07:26 PM
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Well, if it is free I would certainly fill out the paper work.

Really, I might pic up the semi auto and high cap stuff while you can. I think it will be a little longer before "they" start with the non-semi auto stuff.


Join the NRA JYD #69 If a 6 turned out to be 9 Join the NRA
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260860 01/21/09 07:53 PM
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I think I am just going to wait and get the Remington 700 XCR in 30-06. it might take the store a while to get it but oh well. I can wait I guess.


I saw a Russian SKS today at the store for $00 cash. I almost bought that instead - what do ya think????

My two cents would be to pass on the SKS....given what you do for a living semi/full auto stuff can easily drop into your lap...just give it time...I would cover the bases on the stuff that you won't trip over...a good hunting rifle and scope is something that fits the bill...if you get invited to go hunting you need the tools. I would have a good pistol,shotgun and hunting rifle and then spend money on getting really good with them and enjoying myself.

On that note I need to start thinning my stuff out....it is so easy to have too much. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/footinmouth.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260861 01/21/09 08:19 PM
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I can't argue with Steel Fan, I have my other bases covered so for me maybe semi auto stuff would be good to stock up on.

But, if I had to take just one a trusted long range hunting rifle would be my go to. SFan is also right in the fact you never know when you might be asked to go hunting so having the capability is good. A SOD, Glock, 870 and the 700 and you would be really set.


Join the NRA JYD #69 If a 6 turned out to be 9 Join the NRA
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260862 01/21/09 10:31 PM
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Reconseed good choice on waiting for the 06. It will be worth the wait!


If you are going through Hell.....Keep going! Winston Churchill.
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: REM762] #260863 01/21/09 10:33 PM
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Skip the SKS. There are way better alternatives out there. Plus your gonna need alot of ammo and accesories for that 06! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


If you are going through Hell.....Keep going! Winston Churchill.
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: REM762] #260864 01/22/09 12:50 AM
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I would go for either as for most hunting situations neither you or the game will know the difference.
Find the gun that "feels" right and go for it.

Having said that if moose, elk or grizzly hunting is in your future then the nod would go to the 30/06. This is where the heavier bullets shine.

I personally prefer a 308 over a 30/06 but that is only because I was able to get a smaller, lighter rifle in 308 then 30/06

You may want to also look at the 300 wsm if you plan on hunting larger game


The stripes of a tiger don't wash away. Be a man of steel not clay JYD #102
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: coyotebc] #260865 01/22/09 12:57 AM
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Im pretty set on the .06 or the 7mm round. But the scope and rifle and rings and case are going to run me around $1700 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260866 01/22/09 01:24 AM
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YIKES! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

So buy the Browning X-bolt or the Tikka Hunter in 30-06 instead. Both are nice rifles for under $700 easily. Add on some nice rings and scope for about $300 tops. A nice soft case is $75 max. All in all, you should be able to get it for under $1200.

Anyone else on here play with these two bolt actions? If so, back me up here.


JYD#70 Warning! There are more than just dogs in this yard!
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: tyger75] #260867 01/22/09 02:01 AM
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Tikka is very nice.


Join the NRA JYD #69 If a 6 turned out to be 9 Join the NRA
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: imaginefj] #260868 01/22/09 11:47 PM
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I'm not a pro like Steel Fan but I will chime in since I shoot a Rem 700 in .270.
You don't need a 1200 yard rifle in .338 for hunting, you don't even need to pay extra for the XCR upgrade.
I am going to work and save up over the summer to get a Remington 700 XCR 308 Tactical Long Range Rifle and a Leupold Mark 4 Tactical LR/T because I want to get better and to get better I need to be able to shoot longer.

I love my Remington 700, it was bought by a army man 20 years ago and has had major work on the trigger.
I bought it for a good price and all together with optics, rings, base I spent alittle over 1k.
The Mauser action is classic and proven in every war in the last 100 years.
Today R700 have alittle less fit and finish and are sent out with very heavy trigger pulls for legal reasons.

I have only shot my R700 at 300 yards of my atv but the bullet drops a foot at that range with 130gr Federal.
I'm just a dumb kid with a rifle and to little money trying to teach myself everything about long range shooting. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

For hunting give my my 870 wingmaster anyday, you don't need anymore.


JYD#49
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260869 01/23/09 12:36 AM
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Mac! whats up man, where have ya been! Thanks for your post. Still trying to convince myself to spend the $. Its ALOT. But as you say the 700 's action is the best made.


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260870 01/23/09 12:51 AM
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How you been bro!
Hows the army treating you?
I'm counting down the days untill I enlist. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yes, it is based on the Mauser action used in almost every hunting rifle and bolt action military sniping rifle and old military rifles such as the Springfield 1903 and Kar 98.
Almost every bolt action sniping system used by the US military is built off the Remington 700, like the M40 and M24.
With alittle work you could make a store bought Remington 700 a 1/2 moa shooting scalpel, there are thousands of different modifications you can buy and hundreds of smiths that work on Rem 700's.

If the price is to much you can buy a savage 110 for quite abit less then the Rem 700.


JYD#49
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260871 01/23/09 01:59 AM
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True, on the SAvage as opposed to the 700, but man, I have my heart set on the model 700. As you said, nothing compares. I wouldnt be satisfied if i went with anything else.

Im out man, goodnight. PT in the am at 0600.


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260872 01/23/09 03:30 PM
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I was thinking about getting a 770 just to goof around with? Not really wanting to drop major coin on the 700 I want. I have to wait a while as I just got some pistols and a 930spx


JYD #73 Chance favors the prepared mind.
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Gambit] #260873 01/24/09 02:08 AM
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770 is junk. period. avoid it at all costs. the savage for $399 is a better action than the 770, believe it or not.


i have decided, i am going to get a 30-06 or 7mm mag. the .270 winchester is out of the picture now. so, 30-06 or 7mm mag?


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260874 01/24/09 02:21 AM
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770 is junk. period. avoid it at all costs. the savage for $399 is a better action than the 770, believe it or not.


i have decided, i am going to get a 30-06 or 7mm mag. the .270 winchester is out of the picture now. so, 30-06 or 7mm mag?

Stick with the .30 cal. Way more options on ammo and especially if you reload. If you really want a belted magnum just buy a .300 win mag. You can put together rounds as tame as .30-06 or you can load up some full tilt boogie stuff for the 400yd Elk shot.

I have a rifle chambered in just about every caliber you can imagine, including wildcats, and the most versatle all arounders are the .30s. Doesm't matter whether you're talking belted magnims or not. I personally love the .308 Win for just about anything you would ever hunt in North America except big bears. It's also probably the most inherently accurate round ever offered to the general public!

Another note: To truly get the best out of any rifle in both the accuracy and versatility departments, you need to get involved in handloading. It will open up a whole new world for you.


"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Tolly] #260875 01/24/09 02:28 AM
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thanks Tolly, I am probably going to end up going with the 30-06. If Carlos Hathcock can kill 93 viet cong in Nam with an old Model 70 (a variant of the 700), at very far distances, I say that the 30-06 is a caliber to be reckoned with. I went by Dick's Sporting Goods today and they said they would call and see about ordering me one on Monday. I am really looking forward to getting the 700 xcr.

edited: at Mod's request. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by reconseed; 01/27/09 08:26 PM.

JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260876 01/24/09 02:51 AM
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thanks Tolly, I am probably going to end up going with the 30-06. If Carlos Hathcock can kill 93 gooks in Nam with an old Model 70 (a variant of the 700), at very far distances, I say that the 30-06 is a caliber to be reckoned with. I went by Dick's Sporting Goods today and they said they would call and see about ordering me one on Monday. I am really looking forward to getting the 700 xcr.

Well, Mr.Hathcock was a hell of a shot, and the Remington Model 700 is an excellent rifle, but it's not a variant of the Model 70 Winchester. No more so than them both being bolt actions anyway.

When you start talking Model 70s you are talking my game brother. They are my first love even before knives. The original Model 70s have a 3-position safety and are what is referred to as "controlled round feed". They have a claw extractor that controls the round from the time it picks it up to the time it is ejected. That is why almost ALL dangerous game rifles you will ever see are built on Model 70 actions or other controlled round feed actions and not push feed actions like the Rem 700.

Now, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Rem 700, and some folks(especially benchrest shooters) will tell you that the Rem 700 will make for a more accurate rifle for a few reasons that I won't get into here unless asked about. That is not really tru though. As you noted Mr. Hathcock did pretty well with his Model 70.

To make things even more confusing, not all Model 70s are "CRF". There were many years that Winchester made the Model 70 as a push feed action. They lost a lot of customers so they reintroduced the "CRF" Model 70 calling it a Model 70 Classic. If you buy a Winchester (which I always recommend <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) you want to find either a Pre 64' Model 70, a Super Grade, or a Model 70 Classic. If you ever operate a "CRF" Model 70 you will never want anything else. They are smooth as silk and they function very well when dirty too.

Once more I want to make it clear that the Rem 700 is an excellent action as well.


"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260877 01/24/09 02:54 AM
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Recon, Wal-Mart can order rifles as well and if you can find a store that will order them for you their prices can't be beat. Let me know what price you can get the VX for.


Join the NRA JYD #69 If a 6 turned out to be 9 Join the NRA
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Tolly] #260878 01/24/09 02:55 AM
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I stand corrected, I thought the 70 was the preface to the 700. Again, this is obviously YOUR game as you seem to know what you are talking about far more than I. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have been shooting my entire life, but then again, I am 24. I am sure you have far more years in "the game," so Im all ears. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The 700 is claimed to be the best action and rifle ever built though. This is claimed by Remington and many shooters around the world. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: imaginefj] #260879 01/24/09 02:56 AM
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Recon, Wal-Mart can order rifles as well and if you can find a store that will order them for you their prices can't be beat. Let me know what price you can get the VX for.

2 stores have priced me the VX II @ $299.99. Bass Pro and H&S Hunting both.


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260880 01/24/09 03:01 AM
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That is a fair price on the scope, what are they quoting you on the rifle? An option is to buy one on GunBroker and have it shipped to your FFL. If they charged 25 bucks to receive it and it was 30 to ship it you would still save by not having to pay taxes.

My only other thought at the moment is to get a good hard case and lens covers.


Join the NRA JYD #69 If a 6 turned out to be 9 Join the NRA
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260881 01/24/09 03:05 AM
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I stand corrected, I thought the 70 was the preface to the 700. Again, this is obviously YOUR game as you seem to know what you are talking about far more than I. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have been shooting my entire life, but then again, I am 24. I am sure you have far more years in "the game," so Im all ears. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The 700 is claimed to be the best action and rifle ever built though. This is claimed by Remington and many shooters around the world. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Reconseed, I meant no disrespect to you, only wanted to point out that the Win Model 70 is not a variant of the Rem 700.

I believe I stated more than once that the Rem 700 was an excellent rifle. I own several of them and I have three benchrest rifle built on 700 actions. I have also used the Rem 40X as a Sniper rifle platform in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The Model 70 is the most legendary rifle on the planet, partly because it has been around way longer than the Rem 700, and partly because it is an amazing rifle. It also won the "Rifle of the Century" honors. I would say that's pretty high praise.

Didn;t mean to upset you, I was only trying to help. You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder, I apologize if I knocked it off.


"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Tolly] #260882 01/24/09 03:13 AM
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I stand corrected, I thought the 70 was the preface to the 700. Again, this is obviously YOUR game as you seem to know what you are talking about far more than I. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have been shooting my entire life, but then again, I am 24. I am sure you have far more years in "the game," so Im all ears. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The 700 is claimed to be the best action and rifle ever built though. This is claimed by Remington and many shooters around the world. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Reconseed, I meant no disrespect to you, only wanted to point out that the Win Model 70 is not a variant of the Rem 700.

I believe I stated more than once that the Rem 700 was an excellent rifle. I own several of them and I have three benchrest rifle built on 700 actions. I have also used the Rem 40X as a Sniper rifle platform in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The Model 70 is the most legendary rifle on the planet, partly because it has been around way longer than the Rem 700, and partly because it is an amazing rifle. It also won the "Rifle of the Century" honors. I would say that's pretty high praise.

Didn;t mean to upset you, I was only trying to help. You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder, I apologize if I knocked it off.
Hey Tolly- I must say that my old buddy Rex Applegate would totaly agree with you if he was still with us. Just dropped in on the thread and sounds interesting for sure.


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Tolly] #260883 01/24/09 04:29 AM
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I stand corrected, I thought the 70 was the preface to the 700. Again, this is obviously YOUR game as you seem to know what you are talking about far more than I. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have been shooting my entire life, but then again, I am 24. I am sure you have far more years in "the game," so Im all ears. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The 700 is claimed to be the best action and rifle ever built though. This is claimed by Remington and many shooters around the world. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Reconseed, I meant no disrespect to you, only wanted to point out that the Win Model 70 is not a variant of the Rem 700.

I believe I stated more than once that the Rem 700 was an excellent rifle. I own several of them and I have three benchrest rifle built on 700 actions. I have also used the Rem 40X as a Sniper rifle platform in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The Model 70 is the most legendary rifle on the planet, partly because it has been around way longer than the Rem 700, and partly because it is an amazing rifle. It also won the "Rifle of the Century" honors. I would say that's pretty high praise.

Didn;t mean to upset you, I was only trying to help. You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder, I apologize if I knocked it off.


Tolly, you didnt upset me or anything man <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I was incorrect on something and ya set it straight <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> all is good good sir <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260884 01/24/09 05:51 AM
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Well so far it all seems a bit up in the air, and when its like that, that means versatility is a high point.. stick with the .30 cal, there's way to many options, from tossing out 224 sabot rounds from it, to the heavy 200+ grain projectiles. If you want magnum, bypass that 7mm, the 300 can do everything it can only better. as far as models go, thats a tough one, I'd personally favor the Win Mod 70, I just bought another Rem 700, but the win's action just seems nicer, always has to me, its a coin toss though and ya can't go wrong either way.


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: fastcamo] #260885 01/24/09 02:11 PM
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im going with the 700 XCR for sure. Im not unsure about the model, just the caliber. But I have pretty much decided on the 30.06


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260886 01/24/09 05:55 PM
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The Model 70 is a fantastic rifle but they may be alittle hard to find.
A fellow I know pretty well has been collecting Winchesters for over 30 years and always has some pretty toys to bring down to hunting camp.

Hate to throw this in there too but the Mall Ninja in me has been loving this, looks alittle ungainly though.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/12/21/savages-new-sniper-rifle-model-10-bas/
Its a new rifle for 2009 and was just released at the shot show, interested to hear what shooters think of it when it comes out.
I don't like pistol grips because they cause you to squeeze the trigger with your whole hand instead of just with your finger, I don't know I probly would get used to it.


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260887 01/24/09 05:59 PM
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Lot better pictures of the BAS here.
http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/200...actical-rifles/
Looks cool, big rifle.


JYD#49
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260888 01/24/09 06:20 PM
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yea that thing looks cool. savage makes a decent firearm too. had a .243 back in the day from savage.


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260889 01/24/09 06:39 PM
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Check this out.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/01/20/ipod-touch-mounted-on-m110-sniper-rifle/

I want to get a ipod touch now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260890 01/24/09 08:43 PM
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A lot of people underestimate the Savage bolt actions and that is a mistake. They kind of remind me of ScrapYard knives. You get a lot of "Bang"(pun intended) for the buck. I have a Savage 10FP and a 110FP that shoot ridiculously well right out of the box. As a matter of fact, the 10FP in .308 shoots better with factory ammo right out of the box than just about any non custom rifle I have ever seen. They are serious shooters.


"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Tolly] #260891 01/24/09 10:34 PM
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Yeah, I agree.
Savage makes some great bolt guns for how much they cost.
I almost bought a Savage 110 in .308 when I bought my Rem 700, kinda wish I bought the savage because it was already set up and GTG for a young guy like me.
Although I enjoyed mounting my scope and sighting it in my self.


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260892 01/25/09 01:32 PM
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cool link mac. that is pretty neat. well i ended up getting the 30.06 last night in pigeon forge at the bass pro shop with my girlfriend. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

didnt buy a scope yet, instead, i went with a $229.99 PELICAN case <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> i look at it this way, i wont ever have to buy another hunting rifle, OR case, as long as i live. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> this rifle and case kinda remind me of my SOD, if i wanted to, i could go the rest of my life, and not have to buy another rifle, knife, and case, and all 3 would be as good in 50 years as they are today. i plan on giving all my weapons proper maintenance, mind you.


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260893 01/25/09 02:21 PM
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i look at it this way, i wont ever have to buy another hunting rifle, OR case, as long as i live.

What's the fun in that? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

You've only just started. Now you gotta get yourself a nice lever action, say in 30-30, and a good semi .22, and everyone has to have at least one varmint rifle, preferably in 22-250...... The addiction is merely begun! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


JYD#70 Warning! There are more than just dogs in this yard!
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: tyger75] #260894 01/25/09 06:28 PM
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Excellent choice on the Pelican! Congrats on the rest as well. When we hunt dust, mud and getting bounced/slammed around in the bed of the truck are common place. I can rest assured my rifle will be protected and will still shoot true knowing it rests in the best case money can buy.

I used box knives and an exectric carving knife and cut the shape of the rifle out from the middle layer of foam after I carefully traced it. The flush fit is so clean and snug. The wheels are a big plus too. They are ATA? rated too incase you ever fly with it.


Join the NRA JYD #69 If a 6 turned out to be 9 Join the NRA
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: imaginefj] #260895 01/25/09 07:54 PM
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I kinda botched the cutting of the foam. Its not necessarily "snug" and kinda jagged in areas, but it appears to be secure when i close it up and lock the snaps down. You really think its the best case $ can buy? wow. i didnt know that. i knew pelican was pretty good but the best.... man, im happy now! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> got me a pelican case, a R700 XCR, and a SOD from scrap yard. I HAVE THE BEST <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260896 01/25/09 09:36 PM
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Congrats on the rifle reconseed!


"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Tolly] #260897 01/25/09 10:24 PM
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thanks tolly!


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260898 01/25/09 10:27 PM
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You really think its the best case $ can buy?

I have tried SKB, Cabelas and some other high dollar stainless cases and was never impressed with any of them compared to the Pelican. You read the warranty card right? You break it Pelican will fix it or get you another. Just like the Yard.


Join the NRA JYD #69 If a 6 turned out to be 9 Join the NRA
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260899 01/26/09 02:26 AM
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You really think its the best case $ can buy?

They are! The Canadian military uses them for packing pretty much anything. Our new barrack boxes are pelicans. Anything that we want to make sure is secure is packed in them. When I went to Afghanistan, I had to co-work with your Marines on a few projects, and they had their gear stowed in Pelicans. So, if it's good enough for the CF and the Marines, then I guess its' good enough for putting your rifle into, eh? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


JYD#70 Warning! There are more than just dogs in this yard!
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: tyger75] #260900 01/26/09 07:39 PM
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very good points men. when i read pelican's warranty, i kinda thought of my beloved YARD <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ............ in terms of warranty <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> hell, i can throw my SOD in the new sheath that will be here soon courteousy of Jeff, and throw it inside the pelican case with my rifle when i am moving to another Post and rest assured nothing will get to my beloved SOD <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


i wish i had bought another black SOD <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> but then again, why would i need 2 - this one aint going nowhere and aint going to fail me or break! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260901 01/26/09 10:47 PM
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Good deal on the '06. Pelican case is nice too. Now, when you go to get your scope remember to buy quality bases and rings--a lot of the people under-value the importance of a good set-up. Have you decided what power magnification you are going with? I have a Leupold Vari=X III 3.5-10x50mm objective and I love it. I have had the scope for about 6 yrs and it has never let me down.


Men you can't trust, women you can't trust, beasts you can't trust, but Bussekin steel you can trust
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Art] #260902 01/27/09 12:11 AM
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Since you will be hunting with it, the .30-06. I used to be concerned about recoil but it's really no biggie. I have a .25-06(which I love) and its good for coyote to whitetail, but for anything bigger the .30-06 is standard. Ammo availability is huge and you can't go wrong with that caliber. Plus, you probably won't be pushing distances that will require such a flat trajectory if you are hunting appropriately.

This is just my opinion and experience.
Back in 1972 I travelled to Sydney by train to buy a good rifle, scope and reloading gear. My mate always swore by the .270, so I had that in mind for my purchase.

The major gun shop had a large selection to pick from, but it came down to a Steyr Mannlicher-Schoenauer in .270 or a Mauser 3000 in 3006.

They were both high end rifles, but I chose the 06 as the salesman explained the benefits of the wide selection of projectiles. This rifle was intended to last me a lifetime. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I scoped it with a Kharles Scope in 2.5 to 7 variable.

Over the years I shot two barrels out of it and was well into the third when I finally sold it not so long ago.

Australia is probably different in its terrain and game than the US, but here I couldn’t have wished for a better all round one rifle caliber.

Recoil was never a problem, but then it was rarely used over a bench rest, freehand you would never really notice recoil.
Over the years I had shot everything from Rabbits to Water Buffalo before I finally sold it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I experimented with different projectiles, some loads good, and some not so good. I finally settled on 150gn as a good all rounder.

Over the years I shot thousands of cattle with it for butchering for the stations meat supply's, but pulled of some really nice long distance shots on Kangaroos, relatively simple game to kill if going for chest shots.

Water Buffalo is a different matter altogether though, but I would back the 06 any day on them if you managed to place the bullet where it should be.
My vote is for the 06. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

These days I have and use the .308, as I like the benefits of being able to use a shorter action.

Btw, my new rifle is the Mannlicher in .308 and I couldn’t be more happier with it.
[Linked Image from i7.photobucket.com]

Go for the 06 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Ian.


I told my wife I wanted to be cremated. She made me an appointment for tomorrow afternoon. grin
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260903 01/27/09 12:28 AM
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macgregor Offline
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cool link mac. that is pretty neat. well i ended up getting the 30.06 last night in pigeon forge at the bass pro shop with my girlfriend. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

didnt buy a scope yet, instead, i went with a $229.99 PELICAN case <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> i look at it this way, i wont ever have to buy another hunting rifle, OR case, as long as i live. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> this rifle and case kinda remind me of my SOD, if i wanted to, i could go the rest of my life, and not have to buy another rifle, knife, and case, and all 3 would be as good in 50 years as they are today. i plan on giving all my weapons proper maintenance, mind you.

Well now you just need a S & B scope, Leupold rings and bases, Harris Bipod......


JYD#49
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260904 01/27/09 03:07 AM
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This is turning into a great thread....just to try and help on some points...Mac mentioned he was considering saving up for another Rem 700 in .308...what is useful to know is that the Bolt Face for the .270 is the same size as for a .308 so what you can do is simply get a custom barrel done for the .270 in .308 and save yourself the money on a whole new rifle. The .270 is on a long action and one of the benefits here is that a long action can always be used for short action bullets but not the other way round. You will need a few other tools...an action wrench and barrel clamp but the gunsmith you choose to re-barrel the rifle will show you how to swap out the barrels if that is the way you choose to go. However there is nothing wrong with the .270 and before buying other barrels or rifles I would go more for a learning curve with the .270. I would certainly try and learn re-loading so you can shoot cheaper than using factory ammo and with that skill base you can develop loads specifically for your rifle which will be much more accurate and satisfying.

Recon was thinking about a 7mm Rem Magnum....my advice is avoid belted magnum cases...if you start to learn reloading you will learn about the benefits of fire forming your cases so they perfectly fit the chamber on your rifle and the ability to re-load by using a neck sizing die with the further improvement in accurate load development for your specific rifle. When fireformed a normal none belted case will be able to be seated in the chamber using the shoulder of the case and you will get a very consistant seating of your rounds....a belted magnum case seats off the belt and is quite tricky to get them to seat on the shoulder. These are small points but they are relevant to getting the rifle to perform at it's very best.

Learning these skills saves money on ammo and enables you to shoot more and with much better ammo. Hunting rifles have light barrels which with the heat created by multiple rounds will open up in group when the barrel is "hot"...but they will deliver good 3 shot groups. The secret is to let the barrel cool if load developing and wanting to shoot a number of rounds at one sitting.

Scopes and rings and bases are expensive and for this reason alone I would master one rifle before buying another....a 30-06 or a .270 both have high round counts on barrels before they are "shot out"...so you will have a good ability to develop skill without worrying that the barrel might not last.

One of the best things in my view when looking at a telescopic sight is to look at one with external sniper or "target" turrets which encourage you to dial in corrective changes on the scope rather than aim off because you have a hunting scope with dust covers which restrict your ability to correct for distance and wind conditions. As a "first" scope this may seem an unusual suggestion...but it makes all the difference on developing skill...people who say you might have the knobs move forget that if you are trained properly you can check for this when taking the rifle out of the case...it is totally easy to do. Before buying a scope consider reading a bit...the best book for my money is "ultimate sniper" by Maj Plaster...a great reference book for basic skills through to advanced skills...it covers it all.

Value for money on scopes Leupold do some nice ones with their Mk IV turrets which are good target/sniper turrets...their warranty is good as well...my favourite though is NightForce...either their Benchrest Models or the NXS...although I probably spend crazy money on scopes...as I have US Optics custom scopes and custom Zeiss, S&B and March scopes which I now use for my competition shooting...but I have won more comps with Night Force scopes than anything else. After trying them all...NF is for me the best money/performance mix. Do not be put off spending more on your scope than your rifle...but at the same time...go with what makes sense for you...I am probably too much into this sort of thing for most people's needs/wants and am possibly suggesting equipment far too expensive for what most would consider spending.


JYD #75
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260905 01/28/09 12:07 AM
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I am sticking with the .270 right now as its what I got.
I brought rebarreling the action up with my "gun guys" down at camp and they didn't think it was worth it, although they are more about acquiring rifles then shooting them.
I like the idea of building my own gun but I think having a separate hunting gun and long range shooting gun would be nice.
I plan on saving and buying top notch rings, scope, and bases along with a more suitable rifle in a year or so all at the same time.
A Mark 4 is actually the scope I have been looking at but I will probly ask you a boat load of questions be for I take the plunge.
My local eyeglass store sells Zeiss scopes believe it or not, discovered that when I was in there one day.
I don't need glasses BTW, I'm 20/15.

The way I am shooting now is rather spartan, but I am learning alot being that my rifle is actually mine and I don't have to borrow someone's gun just to go shoot.
No doubt my rifle in a hunting gun, and that I am making it do things no other hunter would have it do if they had bought it.
My rings and base are cheap, the rings are nice and have nothing that will shake lose but the base it a two piece which I don't like.
My scope is a Nikon hunting scope with the dust covers and a duplex reticle and horribly thick crosshairs, 1/4 click.
I didn't get to pick my stuff out, my dad basiclly said get this or get none even though it was my own money.
He is all about pretty guns and I am all about function, it leads to some friction at gun shows and stores. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I am not afraid to adjust my scope because I can always sight it in later, although I do usually just eyeball it which I geuss is a bad habit.
I havent tried windage because I shoot in a valley which is dead still, something to learn though.
I don't know if there is a way to slap a pair of turrets on my scope but I would be interested if there was.
A plus with my rifle is its trigger, which is fantastic. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Reloading is another mountain I have to climb. shocked
Something I will have to learn though.

Anyways, I keep on learning and soaking up info and trying to not be a total fng.

I'll check out that book.


JYD#49
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260906 01/28/09 08:08 AM
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i myself prefer the .270, it dosint kill your shoulder after four shots, just my 2 cents


Logan JYD#51
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: itxploded] #260907 01/28/09 04:44 PM
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macgregor Offline
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That really depends on the weight of the rifle and if there is a pad on the stock.


JYD#49
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: itxploded] #260908 01/28/09 05:17 PM
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Hi Mac,

Well a nice old Rem 700 is worth keeping....as they say...they don't make them like they used to...as for re-barreling....forget that for now. Your .270 as a calibre is plenty accurate...all we need to do is check the rifle over.

The first thing is to check out the scope...there are accessories you can buy to transform hunting turrets to target turrets but before doing so and spending money you need to ensure that the scope works properly.

You need to check the reticle movement both for sticking and for accuracy of the quarter minute clicks. To do so immobilise the rifle so you can turn the turrets and get them to come back to a fixed point. You also want to check it for parallax error. The handy thing with that book I suggested is that this covers how to do all these things and has targets/charts in the appendix which assist in checking these things off. The book is published by Paladin and I will post a link to it. I will also post some links for the relevant bits and pieces you might benefit from.

Here is a link to the book and where to buy it...

http://www.ultimatesniper.com/catalog_pa...p;ProductCode=2

The book is'nt cheap but the knowledge is priceless...

Plaster does'nt cover reloading...so here is another good book...Lymans 49th Edition Reloading Manual...they have good guides at the beginning as to basic techniques...and some good load info for the .270....a book like this is always useful.

https://www.midwayusa.com/Lyman

One tip for reloading...never keep all your powder bottles on the reloading bench...only the one that is in the powder dispenser...so you always know which powder you are using...especially if you reload for pistols and rifles....pistol powder in a rifle case loaded in error can be a fatal error...and this system has worked well for me. Pistol powder is much faster than rifle powder and can cause a rifle to blow up if loaded in a rifle case. Like anything to do with shooting...if you are careful...there are no problems.

Think of it like the danger of loading a 20 guage shotgun shell into a 12 guage gun...the case will drop down the barrel and get stuck...load another 12 guage shell in and shoot and the barrel will blow up...for this reason I stick with 12 guage shotguns...I don't own a 20 guage and 12 guage at the same time and I never borrow another mans cartridge bag if I run out. This last one is more common as a mistake and it nearly happened to me ....on a pheasant drive...I borrowed some cases as my peg was very busy...and a 20 guage had got in with the other shooters 12 guage cases...thankfully I noticed it drop into the barrel.

Anyway...those two tips are good ones...but don't let them put you off...

Edited to further add...Mac here is a link to the type of accessory target turrets which used to be available....

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=899510

However from doing a bit of searching it seems Stoney Point no longer do them and that most manufacturers have altered their coin slot adjustment rings on hunting scopes to possibly prevent these accessories costing them sales on people upgrading to a target turret model??

Midway USA though do have some less helpful accessories which enable faster turning of scope turrets...like a ratchet handle affair but I did'nt see them for Nikon.


Last edited by Steel Fan; 01/28/09 06:38 PM.

JYD #75
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260909 01/29/09 01:58 PM
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i guess


Logan JYD#51
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260910 01/29/09 08:46 PM
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Hi Mac,

Well a nice old Rem 700 is worth keeping....as they say...they don't make them like they used to...as for re-barreling....forget that for now. Your .270 as a calibre is plenty accurate...all we need to do is check the rifle over.

The first thing is to check out the scope...there are accessories you can buy to transform hunting turrets to target turrets but before doing so and spending money you need to ensure that the scope works properly.

You need to check the reticle movement both for sticking and for accuracy of the quarter minute clicks. To do so immobilise the rifle so you can turn the turrets and get them to come back to a fixed point. You also want to check it for parallax error. The handy thing with that book I suggested is that this covers how to do all these things and has targets/charts in the appendix which assist in checking these things off. The book is published by Paladin and I will post a link to it. I will also post some links for the relevant bits and pieces you might benefit from.

Here is a link to the book and where to buy it...

http://www.ultimatesniper.com/catalog_pa...p;ProductCode=2

The book is'nt cheap but the knowledge is priceless...

Plaster does'nt cover reloading...so here is another good book...Lymans 49th Edition Reloading Manual...they have good guides at the beginning as to basic techniques...and some good load info for the .270....a book like this is always useful.

https://www.midwayusa.com/Lyman

One tip for reloading...never keep all your powder bottles on the reloading bench...only the one that is in the powder dispenser...so you always know which powder you are using...especially if you reload for pistols and rifles....pistol powder in a rifle case loaded in error can be a fatal error...and this system has worked well for me. Pistol powder is much faster than rifle powder and can cause a rifle to blow up if loaded in a rifle case. Like anything to do with shooting...if you are careful...there are no problems.

Think of it like the danger of loading a 20 guage shotgun shell into a 12 guage gun...the case will drop down the barrel and get stuck...load another 12 guage shell in and shoot and the barrel will blow up...for this reason I stick with 12 guage shotguns...I don't own a 20 guage and 12 guage at the same time and I never borrow another mans cartridge bag if I run out. This last one is more common as a mistake and it nearly happened to me ....on a pheasant drive...I borrowed some cases as my peg was very busy...and a 20 guage had got in with the other shooters 12 guage cases...thankfully I noticed it drop into the barrel.

Anyway...those two tips are good ones...but don't let them put you off...

Edited to further add...Mac here is a link to the type of accessory target turrets which used to be available....

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=899510

However from doing a bit of searching it seems Stoney Point no longer do them and that most manufacturers have altered their coin slot adjustment rings on hunting scopes to possibly prevent these accessories costing them sales on people upgrading to a target turret model??

Midway USA though do have some less helpful accessories which enable faster turning of scope turrets...like a ratchet handle affair but I did'nt see them for Nikon.


Man you speak gun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Looks like I have some homework to do.

My scope doesn't have parallax compensation, I'm going to go out on a limb and geuss that Nikon set the parallax at 100yds.
I'll have to wait on checking the clicks since I need something with a grid to aim at(right?).
I haven't had any problems zeroing it though.

I'll buy both books, hopefully they will help me.
The second one looks like a good thing for me to jump into reloading with.

I found what I was looking for thanks to your link.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=139903
Hopefully that will fit the bill.

Incedentally I had a eye check today with my mom.
I asked the optician about the scopes I notice he had before and it turns out he is a long range shootist with some very nice rifles.
He carries not only Zeiss but S & B and Nightforce.
Looks like I might be able to get a floor model or lightly used scope for big bucks off. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />
Wonder if he can teach me to reload.

Thanks SteelFan, the knowledge is much needed and appreciated.


JYD#49
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260911 01/29/09 09:23 PM
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Another advantage of the 06 is the availability and cost savings on the military ammo.
I used to often buy the bulk lots and grind the tips down until they were starting to show lead.

There was no significant loss of accuracy and gave them the ability to work well on soft skinned game, instead of punching through and loosing them.

They were also dynamite on pigs as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


I told my wife I wanted to be cremated. She made me an appointment for tomorrow afternoon. grin
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Trumby] #260912 01/30/09 12:01 AM
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i bought the remington 700 XCR in 30.06 and i know i made the best choice. thanks for all the help guys and im glad mac and steelfan got some good in depth talk going <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260913 01/30/09 01:09 AM
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Nahh, lets keep the shooting talk going.

This is fun and good practice for dialing in dope.
http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemohi.html


JYD#49
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260914 01/30/09 04:23 PM
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i bought the remington 700 XCR in 30.06 and i know i made the best choice. thanks for all the help guys and im glad mac and steelfan got some good in depth talk going <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Congrats RCS on your new rifle!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Hopefully what I have suggested for Mac will be of interest for you as well. Those books are good for anyone shooting a rifle...I got my Plaster book in 1993 and I still refer to it now some 16 years later....it is a great book...he was way ahead of his time. In 1993 he gave good info on the .338 Lapua Magnum and it was just introduced as our new Sniping rifle last year. I might well get the new updated version myself just to see what's new.

I have just got a .375 Chey Tac barrel put on a custom BAT action by Barney Lawton...one of your better long range custom gunsmiths...I need to get this pillar bedded to my McMillan stock and get some custom work done for a special bi-pod. This is just a "project" for me....but the cartridge has the longest range shooting ability of any on the market at present. It is capable of sustaining supersonic flight on the bullets for 2200 to 2500 yards...more at higher altitude....speaking to Lutz Moeller who has designed a new monolithic solid bullet for it. Lutz is the best long range bullet designer we have over here in Europe...but it will be interesting to see how this works out. It may be the next "future" calibre....improving the .50 Cal ability....we will see...but it is a fascinating "project" whichever way it goes.

Enjoy the 30-06 and let us know how you get on. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


JYD #75
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260915 01/30/09 07:14 PM
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Nahh, lets keep the shooting talk going.

This is fun and good practice for dialing in dope.
http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemohi.html

Hi Mac, looks like you have had a good break with your Optician...if he is into long range shooting he should be into re-loading. The best way to learn is with someone showing you. If you want any help just PM me...I will send you my e-mail details by a private message.

Checking out the scope can be done with any square sheet of paper which you know the dimensions of...10 inch by 10 inch and the scope should track the width and height using 10 MOA at 100 yards...use bigger paper if the range is bigger...cut the paper accoring to the scope specs for windage and vertical...have a central dot which represents your 100 yard zero...after tracking around the paper bring it back to the middle 100 yard setting...to do so you need to count the clicks when moving out from the zero setting...so this is a slow steady job checking the whole range without target turrets to help...but it can be done. The rifle reticle should move around the paper edge if the rifle is kept still enough. When back at the setting it was at take a shot and see if the zero has returned...shoot either into the wind or with it at your back...a cross wind will move the POI...but a tail wind or head wind at 100 yards should be fine.

Of the three brands this guy stocks on scopes....they are all good but here are some pointers on the different models.

The S&B PMII scopes best feature for me is that the total windage available is done on a single rotation of the large windage dial. You don't have to do more than one revolution like you do on other scopes and therefore you should never get confused how much windage you have on your turrets. With other scopes you need to look at the white stadia lines below the turret to determine the number of revolutions used...just like the Mk IV windage turrets shown on the Mil Dot trainer you have posted a link to.

However the magnification power on their scopes...at least those with a Mil Dot reticle...tops out at 25X. They do have a new 50X scope but it does not have an illuminated reticle and uses a target reticle with thin lines and a single dot centre aim point. It also only comes in .25 MOA clicks. The 5-25 X 50 PMII comes with the illuminated reticle and a choice of .25 MOA clicks or 1cm at 100m clicks. If you want to use Mil Dot's for ranging the handy thing with the 1cm at 100m clicks is that there are 10 clicks at 100m between each mil dot if you go for the first focal plane version and if you go for the second focal plane reticle it is on the ranging power which I believe is 25X. This is too high a mag power to range on in sitting positions or kneeling due to wobble...and it is too high for low light conditions. Therefore on the S&B always go for the first focal plane versions so you can maximise your exit pupil ability at 7mm which on the 5-25 x 50 model is at 7-8 power on the scope. This makes the most of the scopes light gathering ability at low light and is a low enough power to range in free hand shooting positions without wobble.

These models though are VERY expensive...and VERY hard to find as they are committed to a lot of military orders...these are what we use now on the AI .338 LM. The handy thing with first focal plane scopes is that the mil dot is always a Mil at any power...but you need the "fine" reticle for the best performance at higher powers as thick reticles obscure your point of aim image.

You do have smaller power ranges on these scopes and they are cheaper but not by much and you will benefit from 25X when shooting at 100 yards as you can see your bullet holes when checking zero and when testing ammo as the scope can work like a spotting scope. If you are spending S&B money...try and get the best scope that lasts you for the rest of your life. I like the version I suggested but like I said....rare as hens teeth on the domestic market.

Zeiss do two scopes I like in their Victory Diavari range of scopes - the 6-24 x 56 and the 6-24 x 72. Both are available with Mil Dot reticles and both are illuminated. The only difference is the objective lens. I went for the 72 objective for low light gathering at dusk and dawn although both are excellent.
These scopes have second focal plane reticles only and range at a Mil at 12X which on the 72 objective gives you a very close 6mm exit pupil ratio to the optimum of 7mm ( to work out the exit pupil ratio you divide the objective lens diameter by the magnification ). You can range very well on 12X....it gives more precision than ranging at 7X or 8X but is still low enough to use freehand and not suffer wobble. Again when using a Mil Dot reticle I suggest using the metric clicks....most military ranging is now done in metres...your marines are using metric click scopes...as they work a lot easier with mil dots...these scopes are much better than the S&B 1 cm clicks as they click in 0.5cm clicks so you can subdivide the space between the mil dot to 20th's for ranging and clicking adjustment.

Plus at 1000m a 1cm click moves point of aim by 10cm's or 4 inches which for me is very "coarse" for competition shooting as the central "bull" is 5 inches and you need to be able to keep in this as best you can to win at international level...a 5cm/2inch click is much better for me as an option for using the scope in F Class but to be fair I find the power too low for 1000 yards and use other scopes....but at up to 400 yards I can see my bullet holes on a white background with the 72mm objective Zeiss as it is crystal clear and therefore I use this scope for my tactical comps where I have to "range" unknown distances and where I need a lot of medium range precision. It is a great scope but again is VERY expensive and not in my view...and the same can be said for a S&B...good value for money.

Then there are Night Forces....much better value for money but you need to consider carefully reticle choices and "click" choices. Starting on "clicks"...NF have brought out a 1cm click version but again I believe it is hard to get for civilian use as military contracts soak up availability. Therefore if you want a Mil Dot reticle you will be forced to range in mils and convert to MOA clicks...I have done this for years but you need a good head for maths. The distance between each Mil Dot is approx 3.6 MOA at the ranging power. On NF scopes this varies according to the scope power band. Personally though if you cannot get a scope with the mil radian turrets I would avoid the Mil Dot and MLR reticles on NF scopes....because they do some great reticles which enable you to range in MOA and in Yards. This is why I like these scopes so much!!

In Europe nearly all ranges are built and laid out in Metres and I have scopes in Mils and cm clicks for this and for our Military use. But in the USA and here in England most ranges are laid out in yards and it is much easier for me to think in yards and inches and MOA and the NF reticles available really make this very easy to either range unknown distances in yards or determine the windage or elevation changes in MOA. Plus nearly all the ballistic drop charts are done in yards although these days with the ability to use hand held electronic note books loaded with a good ballistics programme which can move between metric and imperial this last point does'nt matter so much. However I am now "old school" and think in yards and inches so the NF scopes work best for me in their other reticles. Given your age Mac you might prefer to start in Mils and Mil Radian clicks as if you go into the military this is what you will encounter. However whether you go for mil radian turrets and reticles or MOA turrets and reticles....for your .270 and for just about any other hunting weight rifle I really love the NF 3.5-15 X 50 NXS. The reasons I like this scope so much are ...

The 50mm objective enables a low mounting set of rings and bases and keeps your cheek weld nicely on the stock...you don't need an adjustable cheek piece...and for hunting rifles or light military sniper rifles the scope is the right size and balance to make the rifle feel right. If you lay the rifle down side ways the 50mm lens is not so wide that the objective is taking all the weight of the rifle and it is a robust scope for that reason. My 72mm Zeiss I have mounted with three rings....one extra one on the front...because the width of the objective makes the scope the central point of contact if the rifle is laid on it's side or if the rifle takes a sideways knock. It is a trade off but the optical light gathering of the 3.5-15 x 50 is excellent at 7X which maximises the light gathering for human exit pupil abilities at 7mm....if you dial the power down to 3.5 the field of view is excellent for scanning in deep woodland for deer....too high a power here and you cannot make out the background easily and find the deer you easily saw with your natural eyesight...it makes a fast target aquisition power for close up work which from a high seat/stand is often the case....and you can track and hit moving targets very easily on this power as well. At 15X you are able to use the scope perfectly adequately at long range albeit you might need a spotting scope for target competitions....but in the US a spotting scope is a necessity anyway for such comps because of the ability/need to read mirage. You don't want to keep zooming your rifle scope in and out for this....so as a combination you can do very well shooting at 15X with this scope. It also has 110MOA vertical adjustment which enables the scope to get your rifle "on" at ranges way beyond 1000 yards without the need for inclined scope rails...and it has 80MOA adjustment for windage....enough to click adjustment in any conditions at any range.

Use this with a NP-R2 or NP-R1 reticle and you can range easily in yards and MOA aim corrections are a doddle...it ranges on 15X which is a bit high for free hand steadiness but is still do able and gives great precision and if need be you can drop to 7X and then double the reticle spacing ( so 2MOA spaces are 4 MOA etc )....I like the R2 option because the lines on the reticle are slightly less frequent and "less busy" on the eye so you have a better target picture and for me easier calculations. Too many lines and you start to lose the plot when assessing a point of aim correction. Plus compared to the Zeiss and S&B it is much cheaper and really is just as good. The turrets have 10MOA available per complete turn and it is fairly easy to know exactly where you are on windage corrections....5MOA each way is quite a good range...you should hardly ever be turning more than one complete turn on windage. Plus the scope can be ordered with a zero stop which enables coming back to your 100 yard zero easy to do without needing to remember your zero setting. All told this is what I would buy if I wanted to put a scope on your .270 or RCS's 30-06...it works well on these type rifles. Check them out at www.NightforceOptics.com


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260916 01/31/09 02:42 AM
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Andy Wayne Offline
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I thought you guys might like these sites for free printable targets. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

MYTARGETS.COM Free Targets That Print In PDF Format

Targets Collection

Printable Rifle & Pistol Targets

If anyone knows of any other similar sites, please post them so I can add them to my collection. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Andy Wayne] #260917 01/31/09 09:52 AM
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Brilliant links Andy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> Thanks very much....some of those targets are totally new for me and look great fun! I like the dart board one and might role that one out for a Xmas fun shoot....C/F scoped and bi-pod, C/F open sights hunting in Big Game, and Combat Shotgun with Slugs...would make a great three gun combo shoot! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260918 02/01/09 01:34 AM
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thanks Wayne, good links!


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260919 02/01/09 03:46 AM
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Great info, my head is still spinning from reading all that gun talk. Love it, keep it up. Btw, I used those sites to print some up and they work great, thanks Andy.


JYD #66 Endure to the End Long live the Brotherhood of the Yard
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Art] #260920 02/01/09 04:47 AM
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this thread really has shown some amazing intellect amongst the members of the Yard.


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260921 02/01/09 05:33 AM
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You're welcome guys. I've enjoyed using those myself. A lot easier if you run out of targets, don't have to go to the store to buy more. Also, if you want to be really cheap and don't mind the lack of color, you can print one "master copy" and bring it to the copy store and make a bunch of copies cheap. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Andy Wayne] #260922 02/02/09 11:37 PM
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Thanks for the free target sights Andy.
I have a surplus of paper because everytime I go to my local shop to buy something they always through in a free pack of targets.

SteelFan, thanks much mate for that above large post on optics.
I'm not going to rescope my .270 since I already have the Nikon on there and thats good enough for a hunting rifle and will do as I hone my skills within 300yds.
I'm gona keep shooting that rifle until I can afford my new set of kit at the end of summer.
I will probly buy a Nightforce for my next rifle since the more I look at them the more I like.
I didn't know the Marines switched to meters, I didn't think they would.
I do plan on enlisting in the army and I want to be as accurate as I can before hand.

So tell me about .375 Chey Tac.


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260923 02/03/09 04:54 AM
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I am planing on getting the Leuopold VX-2 scope for my XCR pretty soon when I get some more money. I would have already bought it and had her on the xcr but i bought a brand new S6!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> so i will have to wait a few weeks and then get it! but when i get it and site her in, i will definitely throw some pictures on the internet for you guys!


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260924 02/03/09 01:33 PM
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Anyone on here a fan of the 22-250 caliber? Up here in Canada, it's very popular for one reason; it's the largest caliber you can legally use for hunting varmints year round (Depending upon the regs for your wildlife zone, of course!)
When I say varmints, I'm referring to anything from gophers up to wolves. Anything larger is considered a round used potentially for poaching deer and other wildlife out of season, so the 22-250 is very popular with those who hunt wolves, coyotes, foxes, etc. etc.

So, anyone else in the yard a lover of the 22-250?


JYD#70 Warning! There are more than just dogs in this yard!
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: tyger75] #260925 02/03/09 02:32 PM
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im not familiar with that caliber. in the united states, we use big calibers for big game. is this a smaller caliber? any pictures?


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260926 02/03/09 02:47 PM
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the 22-250 is slightly smaller in diameter than the .223
[Linked Image from neconos.com]
Here is a lineup of some popular calibers to give you an idea of the size of the 22-250. #5 from the left is a .223, and #7 is a 22-250; notice the difference?
[Linked Image from varmintal.com]
17 Ackley Hornet -- 20 gr. Berger MEF Moly
17 Mach IV -- 20 gr. Berger Moly
17 Rem -- 25 gr. Hornady
22 K-Hornet -- 40 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip
223 Rem -- 33 gr. Hornady V-Max Moly
23/40 -- 40 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip Moly
22-250 Imp/40° -- 40 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip Moly
243 Win -- 95 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip Moly
243 Ackley Improved -- 60 gr. Sierra HP
7mm Rem Mag -- 150 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip


JYD#70 Warning! There are more than just dogs in this yard!
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: tyger75] #260927 02/03/09 06:57 PM
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22-250 is a classic varmit round.
I'm surprised you never heard of it if your such a big shooter Clark.


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260928 02/03/09 07:52 PM
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Hi All,

Mac...yes stick with the Nikon...if it works...it works <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> Out to 300 yards is a great distance to develop skill...wind drift is negligible and you can practise positional shooting well...nearly all sniping comps for LEO/military do this far out and not much further...our McQueens comps at Bisley and around the country do stages at 200 yards and 300 yards on head shots. You have a Wall with windows and a "Hun's Head" target on a stick...you get timed exposures in any of a number of window's so you need to have the Mag power covering the whole wall...it's a great way to practise and develop skill...was developed back in WWI to train Snipers for the trenches.

Google the .375 Chey Tac...it would be another "mega" post to give you the skinny on it....basically it is a knecked down .408 Chey Tac Round designed to give further supersonic flight than anything ever done before. Google Barney Lawton and check out his "rifles" gallery...mine will be similar to those there.
I will do some posts on my rifles when I get the chance and you will enjoy that!

Tyger...yes I have used the 22-250...I had a Sako 75 Varmint chambered in it...and it is a great round. It is a bit "hot" for barrel life as it burns the throat of the barrel being slightly "over bored" in terms of powder volume to chamber bore...but is very flat shooting. If .22 centre fire bullets are the Max diameter for Varmint's it is a good choice...one of the fastest .22 CF's out there...I have a friend though who goes one further with a .22 Middlestead which effectively is a .243 necked down to a .22 calibre...barrel life is about 1000 rounds...I use a 6ppc for this type of work or a .243 and .243 Ackley...slightly heavier bullets...again I will post some pics of my rifles as soon as....

The calibre you shoot that I really like though is the 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser.
One of the very best calibres for all round use. I have had a number of these...and love them...one of the best/most accurate calibres for little recoil.

Recon...looking forward to seeing your rifle...go steady shooting and cleaning to break in the barrel...if you want any tips on cleaning kit just ask. Get a good cleaning rod rather than a pull through snake and always use a bore guide and "never" pull a "jag" back through after it has exited...it can damage the crown on the barrel...brushes are OK but even then I always just go the "one way" and unscrew and pull the rod back...keeps the rifle barrel "perfect" for much longer...a pain...but I have seen guys ruin barrels more through bad cleaning habits than from "shooting". Good Luck with it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260929 02/03/09 08:24 PM
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Thanks SteelFan, thats what I'm working on.
After all, the fundamentals of 1000yd shooting can be taught at 100yds.

.375 Chey Tac sounds nice, I look forward to a range report.
I like the extra long bolt handles on those Barney Lawton guns.


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260930 02/03/09 10:27 PM
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Quote

Recon...looking forward to seeing your rifle...go steady shooting and cleaning to break in the barrel...if you want any tips on cleaning kit just ask. Get a good cleaning rod rather than a pull through snake and always use a bore guide and "never" pull a "jag" back through after it has exited...it can damage the crown on the barrel...brushes are OK but even then I always just go the "one way" and unscrew and pull the rod back...keeps the rifle barrel "perfect" for much longer...a pain...but I have seen guys ruin barrels more through bad cleaning habits than from "shooting". Good Luck with it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Very good advice; anyone that has served in a military will agree with this info. Never use a bore snake, as any grit/filings/unwanted sediment from your first use, will potentially get left in the barrel with continual use of it. Good point on that one, SF. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I go one step further for my beloved firearms, like my Lee Enfield .303s, Browning 30-06, Husqvarna 6.5x55, and my heavy-barreled .22 Marlin rimfire... all bolt action.

I remove the bolt, and push the cloth through (one way), with a wooden dowel that is just slightly smaller in diameter than the barrel. I do this to prevent any unnecessary metal on metal contact with my rifling. Some have accused me of being a little too paranoid, but just see it as taking all the care I can to ensure my rifles last me my lifetime, and maybe longer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


JYD#70 Warning! There are more than just dogs in this yard!
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: tyger75] #260931 02/03/09 10:36 PM
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thanks again steel fan!!!!!!


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260932 02/04/09 12:48 AM
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Recon...have a look at Dewey Cleaning Rods...with a 30-06 get a .30 calibre cleaning rod...the Dewey's have a rubber covering...as this protects the rifling which is or should be sharp...if the bore guide is loose use electricians tape to wrap the end to keep it stiff in the chamber...like Tyger's safe guards this protects the rifling...then you have a rod which should stay clear of the barrel...get a good copper remover to clean with such as Shooters Choice Extra Strength...when the rifle comes new...clean the barrel incase there is copper from the proof round in the barrel...all rifles are checked/shot from the factory...shoot one round then clean....2 rounds and clean...3 then clean...go up to 10 rounds and clean and whatever rough edges/filings are there from the factory will be a lot smoother and cleaned out without copper acting as a "filler" to hide the imperfections.

This takes the best part of an afternoon at the range...use Pro Shot patches if you can get them...a much better quality of linen...

Don't bother to sight in the scope and go for groups until the 1-10 clean is done...it should be easy to keep them in the backstop...get a Harris Bi-pod which is the articulated "Bench Rest" model and buy a simple "scrunch" nylon back bag filled with polystyrene chips...the Bench Rest bi-pod is shorter and keeps the rifle closer to the ground/table which aids accuracy and the back bag is versatile if it is a simple "pillow" shape...laid flat should be enough with the Bench Rest Bi-Pod...the regular one has to have the bag vertical and this induces more error for me...but everyone is different so experiment as to what is comfortable...place a towel under the bi-pod legs to avoid bounce if shooting of a bench...as a tip get some surgical spirit to clean away the residue of the copper remover after the 1-10 as this neutralises the chemicals from the cleaner...then dry patch a few times and go for your zero and check for group. My experience with Remy's is that unlike custom barrels...they actually work a bit better "fouled"...so I would clean only with a wire brush if the rifle is to be regularly shot until it has done 50 rounds...100 rounds later in it's life...then at these stages remove copper...some copper is a good thing as it retains consistancy in the barrel but this is a different thing to "filling in" rough edges if there are any...which should be smoothed out at the start. If the rifle is to be stored a while...clean thoroughly and oil inside the barrel...but always remove this with the surgical spirit on patches and dry patch before shooting again.

The thing with shooting groups is your breathing...get the Plaster Book and it tells you how....in essence...breath deeply and oxygenate your lungs then breath half out and hold it...then take the shot...if the squeeze is such that it is a suprise when the rifle goes off...it should be a good shot...remember to stay in position after the shot...trying to check for a hit etc...stops the follow through...when it works well the groups will show this and you will know then if you have flinched...we all do...so no worries...just minimise it.

Hope these points help....main thing is have fun! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

If all or some of this is known....apologies for rabbiting on.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260933 02/04/09 01:21 AM
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Quote

The thing with shooting groups is your breathing...get the Plaster Book and it tells you how....in essence...breath deeply and oxygenate your lungs then breath half out and hold it...then take the shot...if the squeeze is such that it is a suprise when the rifle goes off...it should be a good shot...remember to stay in position after the shot...trying to check for a hit etc...stops the follow through...when it works well the groups will show this and you will know then if you have flinched...we all do...so no worries...just minimise it.

You know the funny thing, SteelFan? I was given this very same advice about 20 years ago, when I first started learning how to shoot..... from my mother! Seriously! She was the top shooter in our area for the longest time; she could put a group of 5 in a nice tight 3/4" circle at 200 yards without even trying. LOL! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Go ahead, I know somebody wants to make a wisecrack about now! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


JYD#70 Warning! There are more than just dogs in this yard!
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: tyger75] #260934 02/04/09 01:51 AM
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Well your mother was a very accomplished shot! Women who shoot are often able to analyse and get it right! ...Nancy Tomkins...Mid Tomkins wife is one of the best long range shots in the USA and she is an even better coach....although Mid is said to be even better...I look forward to seeing them at Bisley in July for the World Championships...hopefully on our home turf we can pull a result out of the bag...I hope!!!!


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260935 02/04/09 01:43 PM
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steel fan, i am book marking this thread and will reference back to it whenever i get my leuopold scope and begin shooting this baby <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> shes still sitting in the pelican BOMB case over here in the living room floor. you guys have helped me very much. thank you.


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260936 02/04/09 06:41 PM
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Yeah, great wealth of knowledge in this thread.


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260937 02/04/09 08:44 PM
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SteelFan, what do you think of .300 Win Mag?

Also, do you have any experience with this bit of kit.
http://www.arktisusa.com/MilitaryClothing/B220/
I feel like a mall ninja for wanting one but it looks nice.
DPM is the best camo for my area year round for both blending and breaking up the human shape, all or my kit is in DPM except for some nylon and a field jacket that is olive.
I wear the ripstop DPM Jacket Field regularly and I figure the arktis is a good upgrade, maybe something I can buy at the end of the summer if I have some money left over.
Of course shooting gear is probly a better idea, just wondering if you have used it.


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260938 02/06/09 10:58 AM
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Hi Mac,

The .300 Win Mag is a belted case and personally I prefer a none belted case...which when you learn re-loading you will see why...you get much better case life and accuracy from none belted cases if looked after properly...but this is accuracy at extreme ranges...after weighing and batching cases...testing them with water for inner volume capacity and wanting the re-loaded rounds to be "clones" of each other. For factory ammo...it makes no odds...but saying it simple...you can seat a round which is none belted off the shoulder...just use a neck die and fully re-sized die after say every 5 uses and use them 15 times max if they are good brass. A belted case needs the dies tweaking carefully if you need to fully re-size to still have the round seated off the shoulder and not off the belt. They are tricky for extreme range and are not used by the worlds top shooters for this reason...they were designed for safe re-loading on dangerous game...ideally in a double rifle...so it is "horses for courses"...you can get belted cases to extract well if they are the rimmed type of rounds for double rifle use. If you are using them in a bolt action follow Tolly's advice and get a Mauser Action with a controlled feed bolt. They dont work well in large cartridges with a push feed system.

If you are thinking of an option for a second rifle for long range shooting which you can use in F Class comps which can be shot economically...as the .338 LM is expensive and whilst legal as a calibre in the US for F Class is not legal for international use...I would look at a straight .284 Winchester...it is a 7mm case and you can shoot it cheap with Winchester brass or competitively using Lapua 6.5 x 284 brass necked up to 7mm. Use either Berger 180 grain HPBT's or the sierra 175 grain HPBT...Bergers are better but more expensive.
This round won the US Nationals in 2008...so nothing is better in my opinion.
It is a custom round and would take a custom barrel but the round count is good with this round and you will have a platform to build skill on right to the very top. Bartlein barrels are near you in Wisconsin or atleast are not at the other end of the country...Tracy there is the guy to speak to...Kelbly's is in Ohio from memory and they can do an action...the Stolle Panda is good...a BAT action is better...they are single shot bench rest actions...a rifle like this costs a bit but then it is there for the rest of your life...and you can have multiple barrel/calibre options by simply changing the barrel. Single shot is no disadvantage when you hit what you aim at.... A lighter profile varmint barrel is a great all rounder...you can carry it and still compete...26 inches would be my choice as an all rounder and a half inch at the mussle on a straight taper. Similar spec's to many sniping rifles. Hunting with it is fine as it is not too heavy...

The Arktis jacket is used by some of our Police guys in Black....not my choice...here is a link to a company which makes jackets in Ventile...I went for a triple layer Ventile jacket which was custom built in forest green...it is a version of their Artic Smock with a full length zip and whilst not cheap gives 25 years of use and not 2 to 5. You want press studs on the pockets not velcro as it is too noisy...and ask for some spare studs which can be fitted at home by anyone...they are the weakest issue...but velcro really "rips" when out hunting at dawn and dusk. Mine cost £245 but is well worth it...I got some inside pockets done and a shoulder pen pocket...if you're interested they will remember my order spec's.

http://www.west-winds.co.uk/ventilejackets.htm

The sallopettes in the same colour are also great...if you wear a rucksack/deer sack the sallopettes stop trousers falling down around your backside when carrying heavy weights or when crawling...particularly the latter...they also keep your kidneys warm and over the years prevent a "lower back" arthritic complaint...again they are'nt cheap but worth it.

Forget rear back pockets...a pain in a high seat and if wearing webbing...plus if you use them the slinging of your rifle is difficult as is using a drag bag for the rifle for range use with your gear in it as you cannot carry it like a ruck sack easily...use webbing for heavy gear if need be. I have belt webbing or a molle vest which I can attach a Ghillie cape to...and kit the belt kit/vest out to suit me....the vest can take a Camel Back for water and takes my shooting sticks and my other gear. But this set up is more military than hunting.

However here is the web site for getting a good Ghillie cape without the hours needed to make your own...this lite weight poncho is best but you need to cut away around the bottom at the front for leg movement...do little bits after testing but you will need a fair bit off this to be comfortable walking...check out the other capes for an idea of what I mean. It can fit over a small rucksack etc and can be quicly removed and put in the sack so you don't scare the sheeple...makes a cammo jacket look like a hi-visibility vest...I use this with my Ventile gear so I can take it off and go in the pub for a pint and leave my rucksack etc in the corner or in the car...go light weight on this stuff...the heavy is "heavy" when wet. Hood up and simply crouched down on one knee and I have had foxes and deer come within feet of me if I have the wind right and have called them in.

http://www.ghilliesuits.com/paintballghillieponcho-1.aspx


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260939 02/07/09 09:18 PM
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more great info from steel fan!


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260940 02/08/09 02:52 AM
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Hi Mac,

The .300 Win Mag is a belted case and personally I prefer a none belted case...which when you learn re-loading you will see why...you get much better case life and accuracy from none belted cases if looked after properly...but this is accuracy at extreme ranges...after weighing and batching cases...testing them with water for inner volume capacity and wanting the re-loaded rounds to be "clones" of each other. For factory ammo...it makes no odds...but saying it simple...you can seat a round which is none belted off the shoulder...just use a neck die and fully re-sized die after say every 5 uses and use them 15 times max if they are good brass. A belted case needs the dies tweaking carefully if you need to fully re-size to still have the round seated off the shoulder and not off the belt. They are tricky for extreme range and are not used by the worlds top shooters for this reason...they were designed for safe re-loading on dangerous game...ideally in a double rifle...so it is "horses for courses"...you can get belted cases to extract well if they are the rimmed type of rounds for double rifle use. If you are using them in a bolt action follow Tolly's advice and get a Mauser Action with a controlled feed bolt. They dont work well in large cartridges with a push feed system.

If you are thinking of an option for a second rifle for long range shooting which you can use in F Class comps which can be shot economically...as the .338 LM is expensive and whilst legal as a calibre in the US for F Class is not legal for international use...I would look at a straight .284 Winchester...it is a 7mm case and you can shoot it cheap with Winchester brass or competitively using Lapua 6.5 x 284 brass necked up to 7mm. Use either Berger 180 grain HPBT's or the sierra 175 grain HPBT...Bergers are better but more expensive.
This round won the US Nationals in 2008...so nothing is better in my opinion.
It is a custom round and would take a custom barrel but the round count is good with this round and you will have a platform to build skill on right to the very top. Bartlein barrels are near you in Wisconsin or atleast are not at the other end of the country...Tracy there is the guy to speak to...Kelbly's is in Ohio from memory and they can do an action...the Stolle Panda is good...a BAT action is better...they are single shot bench rest actions...a rifle like this costs a bit but then it is there for the rest of your life...and you can have multiple barrel/calibre options by simply changing the barrel. Single shot is no disadvantage when you hit what you aim at.... A lighter profile varmint barrel is a great all rounder...you can carry it and still compete...26 inches would be my choice as an all rounder and a half inch at the mussle on a straight taper. Similar spec's to many sniping rifles. Hunting with it is fine as it is not too heavy...

The Arktis jacket is used by some of our Police guys in Black....not my choice...here is a link to a company which makes jackets in Ventile...I went for a triple layer Ventile jacket which was custom built in forest green...it is a version of their Artic Smock with a full length zip and whilst not cheap gives 25 years of use and not 2 to 5. You want press studs on the pockets not velcro as it is too noisy...and ask for some spare studs which can be fitted at home by anyone...they are the weakest issue...but velcro really "rips" when out hunting at dawn and dusk. Mine cost £245 but is well worth it...I got some inside pockets done and a shoulder pen pocket...if you're interested they will remember my order spec's.

http://www.west-winds.co.uk/ventilejackets.htm

The sallopettes in the same colour are also great...if you wear a rucksack/deer sack the sallopettes stop trousers falling down around your backside when carrying heavy weights or when crawling...particularly the latter...they also keep your kidneys warm and over the years prevent a "lower back" arthritic complaint...again they are'nt cheap but worth it.

Forget rear back pockets...a pain in a high seat and if wearing webbing...plus if you use them the slinging of your rifle is difficult as is using a drag bag for the rifle for range use with your gear in it as you cannot carry it like a ruck sack easily...use webbing for heavy gear if need be. I have belt webbing or a molle vest which I can attach a Ghillie cape to...and kit the belt kit/vest out to suit me....the vest can take a Camel Back for water and takes my shooting sticks and my other gear. But this set up is more military than hunting.

However here is the web site for getting a good Ghillie cape without the hours needed to make your own...this lite weight poncho is best but you need to cut away around the bottom at the front for leg movement...do little bits after testing but you will need a fair bit off this to be comfortable walking...check out the other capes for an idea of what I mean. It can fit over a small rucksack etc and can be quicly removed and put in the sack so you don't scare the sheeple...makes a cammo jacket look like a hi-visibility vest...I use this with my Ventile gear so I can take it off and go in the pub for a pint and leave my rucksack etc in the corner or in the car...go light weight on this stuff...the heavy is "heavy" when wet. Hood up and simply crouched down on one knee and I have had foxes and deer come within feet of me if I have the wind right and have called them in.

http://www.ghilliesuits.com/paintballghillieponcho-1.aspx

Thanks SteelFan,

I'm going to stick with .308 for my next rifle then because its popular and common.

So does that west winds company have a custom shop then, did you just call them and tell them what you wanted?
They look like they make nice stuff.

I made my own ghille a couple years ago with a bdu base and used the rubber leaf neting with plenty of jute tied on.
My complaint about it is that its heavy and it can't be taken off because that my outer layer plus the one arm interferes when bow hunting.
I was going to throw some serious cash down and buy one of these.
http://www.tacticalconcealment.com/pd_ghillieskins.cfm
I didn't think of modifying a premade ghille though, I will go with that which is probly way more economical.


JYD#49
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260941 02/10/09 02:59 AM
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Yes Westwinds make all their Ventile Jackets to your order...so you can customise their standard range. E-mail would be better than calling them.

Good luck with the .308...there is plenty of info on this calibre so you should find the ability to learn with this easily done...Plaster's book is good with this calibre...but it is not an easy calibre to shoot well at long range. At 1000 yards a good .308 HPBT will move 1 MOA for every 1mph of full value cross wind...that is 10 inches...and it is hard to pick up wind changes in 3 mph increases when it is blowing...but at lower wind changes Mirage is your friend.

Good Luck...if you master the .308...the rest is easier...the .338 LM will seem much less troublesome to make wind calls with in comparison.


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260942 02/10/09 03:22 AM
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THis thread keeps on getting better


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260943 02/11/09 01:34 AM
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Yes Westwinds make all their Ventile Jackets to your order...so you can customise their standard range. E-mail would be better than calling them.

Good luck with the .308...there is plenty of info on this calibre so you should find the ability to learn with this easily done...Plaster's book is good with this calibre...but it is not an easy calibre to shoot well at long range. At 1000 yards a good .308 HPBT will move 1 MOA for every 1mph of full value cross wind...that is 10 inches...and it is hard to pick up wind changes in 3 mph increases when it is blowing...but at lower wind changes Mirage is your friend.

Good Luck...if you master the .308...the rest is easier...the .338 LM will seem much less troublesome to make wind calls with in comparison.

Thanks mate.

Speaking of wind, do you recommend any certain brand of wind meter?
Thinking of getting one someday, just wondering.

-Mac


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260944 02/11/09 11:50 AM
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The best windmeters are made by Kestrel. I started with their 3000 model and upgraded to their 4500NV.

[Linked Image from i343.photobucket.com]

They don't just read the wind...they are barometers, a compass, an altimeter and a thermometer. They can assimilate this information and give combined data...readings such as density altitude are relevant for shooting...but if mountaineering things like wind chill and Pressure Trend's are useful...one for a warmth assessment and the other for determining advancing bad weather. As far as shooting goes the information you need to take and understand is basically as follows....

Windspeed and direction comparative to the intended flight of the bullet. At a right angle to the bullet path it is "full value"...or for me I prefer to think in terms of "clock face" directions..."full value" is 9 o'clock or 3 o'clock then you have 2/3rds value at 8 and 2 or 10 and 4...and 1/3 value at 11 and 5 and 1 and 7 with a head wind at 12 and a tail wind at 6. The angles of the wind have differing effects on bullet movement in flight.

Altitude combined with Barometric pressure gives information as to the density of the air you are shooting in...thinner air at altitude provides less resistance on the bullets progress...in simple terms the bullet travels faster...this impacts on the elevation adjustment needed.

Direction of shot impacts at long range because of the coriolis effect of the earth spining and how this effects gravitational pull...coriolis is basically understood by which way water runs down a plug hole...this differs between the Northern and Southern hemispheres...combine this with the axis of the earth and you have the equivalent of g force or pull on the bullet when travelling through the air...this varies according to the direction you shoot in and according to a Northern or Southern hemisphere location. A complicated issue but made easier by modern ballistic programmes which if loaded on a multi function mobile phone or on a pocket note book enable you to work these out by simply adding the relevant data and it doing it for you.

Another issue which these programmes address is "spin drift" of the bullet. This is caused by the direction of the rifling in the barrel. Most rifling is a right hand twist meaning the twist of the rifle goes from right to left...rarely you could have a custom barrel done with left hand twist...I have never encountered this. In essence the bullet spining "clockwise" causes it to drift in direction to the "right" over distance. It is to do with air density and cutting a swathe through it by spinning in one direction. On average a right twist barrel causes bullet drift of 1 MOA or 10 inches right at 1000 yards...but again this varies on air density.

Then after this is "velocity" of the bullet...whilst the bullet is supersonic it progresses in a relatively uniform direction...when it enters a "transonic" velocity as it progresses towards subsonic velocity it starts to wobble and can destabilise...with a .308 at 1000 yards it is not uncommon to see bullets of certain design enter targets side ways...the bullet at that distance has tumbled due to velocity decreasing below the supersonic threshold of 1000 fps but there is good evidence that there are problems created in the band of 1100 fps to 1000 fps or the "transonic period".

Finally there is the design of the bullet itself...this is referred to as the BC or ballistic co-efficient of the bullet. Like the hull of a racing yacht some bullets have less drag going through the air as do hulls going through the sea. They also resist sideways drift from the wind better than other designs because they offer a more sleaker shape. Shooting a .308 you need to pay very careful attention to bullet choice at distance...a 155g HPBT/VLD bullet seems to be the best choice for 1000 yards but heavier bullets do retain momentum better and some have tried 175g HPBT/VLD designs...it can also be a "barrel" specific thing as to which shoots best as well...but all told...a .308 is right on the cusp of failing at 1000 yards and is a challenge to shoot it at that distance...because the lower the velocity at this distance the greater the wind movement of the bullet. To shoot this calibre well at distances like this you definately need a 30 inch barrel to maximise the velocity gained from the powder charge in the case. A stalking length barrel will struggle and really for sniping rifles at 24 or 26 inch barrels the maximum effective range is for most locations at Sea Level about 800 yards. You can do further in higher altitude/thinner air locations.

So aside from a wind meter you should consider a range finder as well. The bino's in the above photo are Lieca Geovids with a built in laser range finder good for 1200 yards...unknown distance shooting is made a lot easier with this method of "knowing" the distance.

To maximise your scope elevation movement you would need an incline rail for the action...the one pictured is inclined at 20 MOA downwards to give a 100 yard zero at the beginning of the scopes vertical travel of there abouts. It makes up for the alteration needed because of the height of the scope above the bore of the rifle.

Having covered scopes and rifle calibre choice once you have an inclined rail and good mounts and a wind meter and a range finder...the last thing you need is a ballistic programme. There are many out there...the ones I like are two matching products....one software programme works on your laptop and is called Precision Shooter's Workbench and the other works on a phone/note book and is called Feild Firing Solutions...both are made by Lex Talus and can be found by going to www.lextalus.com and ordered and downloaded on line. The benefit of these is in a nutshell...they allow for 3 different wind conditions prevelant on the bullet flight path...which at long range is often the case because of topography such as hills...valleys...etc...which the wind will deflect off or be sheltered from...and these programmes enable a true click value for your scope to be entered...the best you can do on a scope is have "consistancy" usually...and the true click value is often not exactly 1/4 MOA or whatever the click value...this induces error when clicking for a distance shot...so once you have calibrated your scope properly...ideally in a tunnel range...you can work out the true click value and add this into the programme.

So really there is quite a lot needed on top of your rifle and scope and bullets...but it is a challenging hobby to get to grips with...when you do and you get this base knowledge...then the learning curve starts on assessing the land features you are shooting over and how these will effect your shot as well as the wind. This is why a long range shot is "composed"....but there is tremendous satisfaction in hitting something in a different Zip Code to where you take the shot from...plus with bullet flight time you can take the shot...recover ... and then watch to see if it hits...but you need a highpowered Scope for this and in truth it is often a quick second shot taken aiming off from the first impact which gives you your "hit"...especially at over a mile. Let me know though how you get on....like you said earlier...building skills at 300 yards works for 1000 yard shooting.

Here is a good link to learn the basic effects of spin drift ( gyroscopic drift ) and coriolis effect for shooting in the USA...

http://bryanlitz.bravehost.com/GyroCor.html

Bryan is a good long distance shooter and designs aerodynamic aspects on missiles...so he has a brain much better than mine for getting this stuff "explained" easily. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Steel Fan; 02/11/09 05:19 PM.

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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260945 02/11/09 09:56 PM
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Thanks alot again SteelFan.
I borrow a laser rangefinder but I will buy one along with the Kestrel, probly will ask for the two for my birthday.
The coriolis effect, humidity, and spin-drift are more things I have to wrap my head around.
I have a good foundation on the effects of temperature though, having many pilots in the family.

Learnin.


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