Ok, this isn't a post about what kind of tent I would need for winter camping.

Most on the forum know that at this time, I'm unemployed, and can't afford a
new tent for winter camping so I have to make due with what I have.
What I have is a 2 season tent, that I'm going to try to use this winter.

I have a budget of about $0.00, but I have a couple of heavy duty tarps.
Right now, I'm thinking of putting one tarp under the tent, and using the other
as a kind of fly for the tent. Both tarps are big enough to do this.
As well, I have foam pads, and two of those air mattress type of pads for inside
the tent so I won't be sleeping directly on the floor of the tent.

My tent is a small hexagonal type dome tent. I have a rain fly, but don't
think it will help much.

The camping is going to be car camping so I don't have to worry about packing
the tent and tarps too far.

The question is what else would I do to winterize the tent?
Would I pack snow up against the side of the tent to help insulate it?
The tent stands only a couple of feet high, and is about 6 or 7 feet on
each of the six sides.

I also have a roll of 6 mil poly that I used for a vapor barrier when I
re-insulated my ceiling this summer. That could be used as well.

Any suggestions from the seasoned winter campers as to how I could set a camp
up for maximum warmth given the assets that I have?

Oh, camping conditions would be 3-4 feet of snow, fairly sheltered camping
area, temperatures in the 0F to -25F range.

Thanks
Cheers

If you use a vapor barrier on the top of the tent you will prevent it from breathing. This may cause considerable moisture (condensation)inside at night. I've used the poly paint covers that you get at Lowes etc. to pitch my tent on. I don't know if a tarp will give you any more insulation. A tarp above the tent should help prevent heat loss. Using a candle lantern inside can bring the temperature up. Rigging a tarp as a wind barrier also helps.

The general design of 2-season tents is that the mesh goes almost to the floor of the tent, with a rainfly that's held away from the mesh by a few inches, so there is lots of room for air to move through.

On a winter tent, the idea is to let much less air move through, but be able to have some air movement, to prevent condensation and frost. So, to best make your 2 season into a 4 season, you want to cut down on the air movement. To me, the simplest way to do this seems like cutting up that 6 mil poly so it fits over the large mesh openings, and turn them into small mesh openings. You could tape the plastic over the mesh, so it blocks most of the opening, but still leaves some space for air movement. You will likely have to play with this a bit, to find a good balance between keeping your warmed up air trapped in the tent, and letting enough air circulate to prevent condensation.


Another hint is to use a chimney effect to help air circulate - a small vent near the bottom of the tent, and another near the top, will allow warm, moist air to move out of the top, while cool air is drawn in through the bottom. You obviously don't want a lot of cool air to come in, but you want to let enough of the moist air out to prevent getting soaking wet from condensation. If you wake up in the middle of the night with a lot of condensation, peel away some of the plastic, to let more air flow, and that should help.


Good luck!

The two tarps that I have are quite large.
One is 50' X 50' and the other is about 25' X 25'

I wonder if it would be better if I set them up as a lean-to?
Using some logs and long cut poles, I can get up off the ground, and could set
one of the tarps up so that it had 3 sides and a roof, with the open side
facing a back reflected fire.

Something like this, only with a reflector behind the fire and a log bed to get
off the ground

DotD
I have used a summer tent while hunting. Last year at 100 mile it was -15.
The biggest problem was the wind.
I used a tarp to cover the tent and it worked. I have a -20 sleeping bag and I wear a hat when sleeping.
You can use a a lantern to warm up your tent for 15 or 20 minutes before you go to bed

This is what I was thinking about doing. My sleeping bag is good to about
0 degrees Celsius, but I have a large bivy bag that I can stuff it in to augment
it.

Thanks Coyote

DotD
I also have used wool blankets or a down comforter to supplement the sleeping bag.
I am a round guy that just can't stand mummy bags, I also can't wear touques to sleep. What I found that worked well to keep my head warm at night was a $15 hardhat liner. You can get them at Mark's

http://www.lawlorsafety.ca/products/head-protection/hard-hat-liners-10
Here are a few examples
My kids call mine my dork hat

Before going to sleep I always put on a pair of clean(fresh)socks on, wool preferably. That and a hat, previously mentioned will help to keep warm a lot.

Thanks guys.
I've got a wool balaclava like the first one in your link Coyote, and am pretty
comfortable wearing that.
Silverback, got lots of wool socks, and will be doing that.
I'm not too comfortable with mummy bags, but have a light one that I could
put inside my larger sleeping bag for added warmth if needed.

In the winter camping vein, there is a snow shelter contest going on over at
Bladeforums that I've decided to enter. You go and build an "all natural"
survival shelter, and spend the night in it.
Good test I think. I've already started on my shelter, will be finishing it
up either this week before Christmas, or next week, and am hoping to spend the
night in it next week sometime.

Cheers

You can fill a Nalgene bottle with boiling water, then put it in the bottom of your sleeping bag to keep warm.

Tarps are fine in any temp, essentially all tents are is tarps stitched together.

I spent MANY a night is 30-40 below or more in nothing but a tarp and ground sheet.

The key is insulate the ground under with spruce boughs at least foot or more thick.

String the tarp like a teepee with the centre strung up. Pin the sides down tight and seal with snow or logs.

Condensation will form and freeze, not a big deal to scrape off in the morning.

You need a large tarp to do the teeppee style setup but the key is limit the interior space to a minimum thus less airspace to heat up. A candle lantern does well to keep the chill out.

Keeping wind out 100% and ground insulation is the goal as it dont matter what your bag rating if those 2 arent taken care of.

Hound

Funny story here
Last year I was up past 100 mile house hunting moose.
I was in the summer weight tent mentioned above that I had put a tarp over to keep the wind out. Its a dome tent about 7 feet in diameter and about 5 feet high at the center.
My youngest brother was in his 3 season dome tent with a propane heater.
My nephew and one of his friends were in a large cabin tent probably 12x12 or so.
The first night it reached -15 to -20 celcius, my nephew was freezing.
Before he went to bed he lit 100 tea candles and put them on a stand in the tent trying to warm it. I felt sorry for him so I gave him 5 wool blankets to use as well.
Without saying anything he decides to go Jeremiah Johnson on us and takes a couple of rocks out of the fire and puts in the foot of his bed. He then goes to bed, about 45 minutes or so latter we hear him yelling at the top of his lungs.
The blanket he wrapped the rocks in (polyester blanket) had caught fire. He managed to put it out right away, but his blanket was ruined.
He wasn't hurt but man it was funny, the only bad thing was he ruined two of my wool blankets.

Coyote, that sounds like something I would do...hehe...

Little bugger didn't tell me about my blankets, he just packed them up in my rubbermaid container.
Found them later when i went to wash them.
The secret is, you can put them in a container like a pot, or you can wrap them
LOOSELY in natural fiber blankets. Do not do what he did and tightly wrap them in a polyester scooby do blanket.
For the record he turns 22 next month

On Bladeforums, there is a snow / winter shelter contest, and I've decided to
enter it to see how I do. The premise is that you can only use natural
materials, but I'm going to take a tarp just in case.
For the contest, I'll have to spend the night in the shelter.

The shelter is going to be underneath a low branch of a standing tree that has
been crossed by a fallen tree. The top end of the tree has broken over the
branch, and forms part of the back wall of the shelter.
I still have to fill in the left side of the back wall, which is what I'm going
to be doing this week.


There's a lot of long grass in the vicinity, so I'm going to use that for the
base. The grass is about 2-3 feet long, and I'm going to be making a thick
layer, probably about 6 to 10 inches deep.


This picture shows how I'm going to be laying the grass. The back part that I
still have to fill in is on the left


Do you have a picture of how this is set up?

I saw a candle lantern in the surplus store the other day. Was wondering if
if would be of any use. Looks like I'm going to have to go and pick one up,
or even better, as it's really close to Christmas, I'm going to drop a strong
hint to my brother...hehe...


That's what I'm going to have the most problems with in this shelter I think.
It's quite windy where the setup is. The shelter faces north, and the valley
has strong west to east winds at this time of year. I'm going to have to stuff
a lot of grass in all the little nooks and crannies to make this work.

Thanks for the advice Hound!!!

If worse comes to worse just put a candle inside a mason jar.

That's a good idea coyote!

Thanks.

Just got back from camping with the Scouts in cheapo 2/3-season tents. Went down to 5 degrees.

For car camping...bring a second bag. Can't hurt to have it. You can always put it under you. Having good ground insulation is key.

Change ALL of the clothes that you will be wearing to bed. Everying - top, bottom, socks, hat, gloves... This helps alot.

Next day, weather permitting, open up your tent and hang your open sleeping bag on a line to remove the night's moisture.

I have one of those ground pads that are self-inflating. Roll them out and
open the valve. In about 15 minutes, they are inflated and provide about 1 1/2
to 2 inches of air inflated space between me and the ground.

Nice idea about the second bag. I have two that are roughly the same size,
and was thinking that I could stick one inside the other. That would increase
the insulation factor.

What do you think Javadog?

Good thinking about the clothes as well. I hadn't thought of changing the
clothes, but see the sense in it. If you've been in the other clothes all
day, the inner layers will most likely be damp from the day's sweat.
Good idea to put on dry clothing before bedding down for the night.

Thanks for the ideas!

wool wool wool

I will throw my 2 cents worth in. As a scout master I tought winter wilderness survival for 30 years. I have slept in many igloos on My Rainier and Mt St. Helens. I have also slept in many three season tents in the snow on the mountains. To stay warm at night: 1. Insulate from the ground (no air matresses, Thermarest good), 2. Get a good mummy synthetic (hallowfill, etc). If there is any chance of getting wet then NO down. 3. Sleep with a stocking cap and in your underwear (not fully dressed). Let the sleeping bag work the way it is supposed. If you have a bad sleeping bag then sure sleep in every thing you have. There will be a themal point near 32 deg between your body heat (hopefully 98.6 deg) and the cold out side. The key to being warm is to get the 32 deg point to be outside your bag. If you have a good bag and sleep in warm clothes, the 32 degree point (or "cold" point) may end up inside your bag. The real key is to manange where the cold transision point is. When I lived in Chicago and took the scouts camping at -14 deg and they had BAD sleeping bags, we filled the tents full of straw. (over them and under them). Just be sure no one has hay fever.
Ron Athay

Next cold management concept. In some class I took they talked about the mongolian method in the high deserts. Build a small "tent" inside a big "tent". Live in the big tent, sleep in the small tent. Here you would set up a 12 x 12 tent then pitch a small dome tent inside. Same concept could work for a made shelter. Wind break tarps are a form of this concept.
Igloo lore. My first igloo was on Mt Rainier. Igloos are always 32 deg at the inside edge of the snow. In time they thicken or thin to maintain that temp.
When we wook up (good nights sleep), it was -5 degree outside and +42 deg in the center of the igloo.
Ron Athay

I was looking at a pair of army surplus wool pants in the surplus store the
other day, and they wanted $50.00 for second hand.
That's more money than I have available to spend right now.

For first layer, I'm looking at bamboo bike socks inside wool socks, long johns,
comfort fit work pants, t-shirt inside long sleeve merino wool sweater.
For second layer, I'm looking at Baffin snow boots (good to -70F), snowmobile
suit (bib overalls, and jacket), -40F two layer gloves / mitts (inner
thermalite gloves, and outer leather mitt. For headgear, I'm looking at a
wool balaclava that can be used as a toque as well. For windbreak on my head,
the snowmobile jacket has a hood.
I've worn this combination in -40C (also -40F) temps with 80km (50 mph) winds
when I was working on radio/television mountain top repeater sites.
A lot of the time, I would have to undo my jacket as I was getting too hot and
starting to sweat.

I have a mummy synthetic (summer use only though), two -4C normal bags, and a
Thermalite2 bivy bag from Adventure Medical Kits that one of my normal size -4C bags will fit into.
I was thinking of putting one of the -4C bags inside the bivy bag and putting
it on top of the Thermarest air filled ground pad with a 6 mil plastic sheet
underneath the Thermarest pad
Opinions?

This is going to take some experimenting to see if I get too hot inside the bag.


This I didn't know. Now definitely, I am going to have to practice.


I have a large tent and a smaller tent, and will check that out.
Right now, I have wind break tarps set up on my gazebo, so I think that
I'll set up my dome tent inside and see how that works.

Thanks guys!

One bag inside the other works well, especially if one is larger - like a mummy winter bag inside a rectangular lighter bag. You want to try to maintain the loft. Sometimes I put a wool or fleece blanket inside the bag for that reason. But, getting some good insulation under you is a must.

When I said to change clothes, I usually just put on a single base layer of poly tops and bottoms (never cotton), some wool socks and a new hat. I have a mid layer nearby if needed. These all become my next day wear, then get changed again at bed time.

Again, the great thing about car camping is that you can take more stuff than you need. I usually have a couple extra bags and blankets for any scouts who might need them.

Oh, if you want, get some hand and feet warmers. I know some troops that hand them out like candy. We don't but they are nice to have if really needed. You can also put one in a sock and stick it down the end of your sleeping bag.

Have fun!

Lots of things to try.
I've gotten a summer mummy bag, and also have 2 rectangular bags.
Going to get a surplus wool blanket this weekend and try putting it
between the inner and outer bags.

Thanks again JD !!!

When the temps.get below freezing,I wrap a disposable hand warmer in a sock and into my boots at night when I go to bed.Works great and there is nothing like warm boots in the morning.Helps to dry them out also.

be careful not to constrict the loft of the bag... i found a wool blanket was warmer under me before teh cold air pads.... and its loft is hard to squish out....

another idea is putting a heat sheat under you... it oddly works well ... maybe you can scrounge one or two... i also found you can use em as a fire reclector if you put em a couple feet away from the fire...

personaly i would build wind breaks and then build the tarp into the windbreaks. dig down and put my dome tent inside with the ground cloth etc. then use every one elses idea... as well.

its not easy campin that cold...... i would let ya use my portable electric blanket and jump battery if you were closer lol.