Post deleted by Private Klink

But does anyone else feel a little... dirty, choosing Swamp Rat's alloy over the Yard's?

yes. it feels wrong. i haven't voted yet. i will usually pick edge retention over toughness so i'm finding it hard to vote. i've been questioning the superiority of INFI over SR101, outside of maintenance. all these steels are excessively tough.

..... but isn't "sharpened crowbar" part of SYKCO's soul?

I say, it's the Scrap Yard, so there is no one steel for use. If there were a pile of excess INFI around, you can bet Dan would use it. But given a choice of steels between SR77 and SR101, I pick SR101. If you want one with micarta handles, get a Swamp Rat. I want the best steel Dan can get at the best possible price. Having used both steels in choppers and smaller blades, I prefer the SR101.

You can't use the original DM price as an accurate guide for 5" SR77 blades. It used "left over" Busse handles or it would have cost more. Also, using prices of anything from two years ago is not valid, as most everything has gone up, petroleum products, energy, and steel all cost more today. Wait until you get to use that Scrapper 5. The performance for a $100 knife will at the top in the industry.

Unfortunately, the poll is already biased.

I recall the DFLE being $70 less than the M9LE. anyone recall the prices of the HC and MPLE?

Okay, before KG takes away my right to vote <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> - let me clarify...

I have never used either steel but I came here thinking that what differentiated SY, SR and Busse were the steels. As a person who likes choice, and given the restrictions of the poll (If SY could only use one steel) I would choose SR-77 because I can get 101 at SR. If SR and SY only used 101 then I could never get 77 at all. Make sense?

Release price for the HCLE was $138.95 (nearly the price of a DF CG); MPLEs were $79.95 (and BDLEs were $89.95)

on another note, i think the massive love affair with SR101 is due to its lack of appearance in the past few years and its resurfacing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> SR77 aint going nowhere, so i can sleep good at night <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

easy, the choice is 101....you would have to literally be trying to break the knife to tell the difference in toughness between 101 and 77, where as the edge retention most everyone will notice

Thanks for bringing this up. But remember, the price difference had nothing to do with the steel and everything to do with the handle material between the SY and SR offerings. To me it seems like the real question is not which steel but which handle material (as it seems that SR101 and SR77 are pretty close in price and INFI is way out there).

When broken down as the above post shows, how many would prefer micarta or G10 over res-c for an upcharge of almost 50%?! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I should also add. If one MUST rely on ones knife like I do at times. SR-77 is a much stronger & more dependable steel IMO, that's according to some tests I have conducted. But that's MO of course.

Unfortunately, the poll is already biased.

Rather than everyone voting for the steel they think is best, some (at least 3) are voting for SR-77 for reasons other than what they feel is best or without having experience with both.


Maybe some more "defining" parameters needed to be set? Or phrased in such a way to help eliminate biase.

Maybe the question should have just been simply:

"If BOTH Swamp Rat and Scrap Yard were to ONLY use one steel type out of SR-101 and SR-77 and you could still have ANY handle material from either Swamp Rat or Scrap Yard, what steel would you prefer? SR-101 or SR-77?"



With 3 Options:

1) Experienced with Both: I prefer SR-101
2) Experienced with Both: I prefer SR-77

3) Not experience with BOTH: So, I can't vote until I am, but looking forward to the results.

.

You can't use the original DM price as an accurate guide for 5" SR77 blades. It used "left over" Busse handles or it would have cost more. Also, using prices of anything from two years ago is not valid, as most everything has gone up, petroleum products, energy, and steel all cost more today. Wait until you get to use that Scrapper 5. The performance for a $100 knife will at the top in the industry.

if you've conducted tests then it's not an opinion, it's data. i'd love to see it and will retract my previous posts if it's conclusive.

it's that simple. this post should be read twice by anyone who disagrees.

lack of appearance? what? recent years? aren't you new to these knives?

"love affair." i have had one rat until now and sold it. the swarden. i have no devotion to sr101 and i did not purchase an S5. the M9 is the first rat i both own and love. coulda been SR77. coulda been infi. it happens to be sr101. the designs the clan produces are the deciding factor for me, never the steel. i'll taking any of them, including 154CM.

now lets be clear about why people like the SR77 knives. it's not the "superior steel." it's the price or the respirene-c handle. i will question, even challenge, any data i see (i haven't) that indicates the superiority of SR77 to SR101 or infi.

wonder if the same defect in the same knife made of SR77 would have caused the same failure.

Remember RS, sr101 has more strength than sr77.

yea magnum, you read it correctly the first time... LACK OF APPEARANCE. there havent been ANY knives put out at the swamp in what 2 years, M9LE aside..

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Hairy Carry came out late last summer, did it not? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/paperbag.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Granted, one release a year is pretty slow, but that's still one a year instead of none in a year.

tyger, im not sure when the hairy carry came out but what you have failed to actually realize is that the hairy carry was NOT made of sr101.. it was made from 154CM. so my claim stands. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Mag,


338 Stalker had the "ONE" broken tip on SR-101 that I have ever seen in about 5 years on Rat Chat, Bladeforums and 2.5 years or so here on Scrap Yard forums.

There are pretty fair indications there was a defect in the steel. But, I don't know.

I don't think 338 sent the Chopweiler back to Busse/Eric to give them a fair opportunity to inspect it for reasons for failure (???????)

Chopweiler Tip Failure


Considering, this is the only "legitimate" significant failure in SR-101 I have seen or know of and considering how many other SR-101 blades I have seen take a LOT more, I am willing to chalk up one case to defect.

I "Think" I remember having read (???????????????????) Jerry to have said he has about 1 in 1000 pieces of INFI break as defects.

I "Know" I have seen 4-5 INFI knives break worse than the Chopweiler tip. So, I Know I have seen more INFI break than SR-101.
Yet, I still concede INFI to be tougher.
However, SR-101 has an INCREDIBLE track record for NOT failing.

338's Chopweiler was unfortunate. Also unfortunate that Eric/Busse didn't get a fair chance to analyze for what may have caused the defect. Eric repeatedly offered to replace it if 338 sent it back. Again, I could be wrong, but I don't have time to research all the posts, but I don't think 338 sent it back.

Defects happen in steel and it is very hard to inspect for certain defects and you just don't know till they fail.

Considering I HAVE seen more pieces of INFI break than SR-101 and considering the ABUSE I have seen given to SR-101, I am still VERY good with the toughness level of SR-101 and will consider 338's CW as a 1 in MANY thousands defect.

.

For the record. I did send back that broken CW to SR but I'm not sure about the outcome.

If I could change my vote, I would. I voted for sr101 but I would have to agree that I want Swamp Rat to continue to prosper. I too would like to have both companies maintain their current steel choice.

Just trying to make heads and tails of it all. How do strength, toughness, edge-holding ability and hardness all relate to one another?

Believe it or not, I think I understand both your points. So if I put two pictures side my side, one picture showing a bar of steel breaking at 90 degrees and another bar of steel breaking at, say, 135 degrees, can I infer anything at all about which bar possesses more lateral strength if I don't know how much force was applied to either bar?

As I understand them...

Toughness - resistance to breaking, chipping, etc. - Softer steel = tougher steel - Less Carbon

Strength - usually this is the term to explain edge holding ability. - Harder steel = stronger steel. Usually, this means that the steel contains more carbon - carbon makes steels harder/stronger. This means the steel won't bend or give as much as softer steels.

Hardness - The Rockwell scale measures this and it is determined by how far a diamond tipped instrument can be pushed into the steel under a specific (high)pressure load. The depth of the penetration is measured and a Rockwell hardness number is given to the steel based on that measurement.

Hope this helps. And, If I am incorrect on anything - please don't hesitate to let me know. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Believe it or not, I think I understand both your points. So if I put two pictures side my side, one picture showing a bar of steel breaking at 90 degrees and another bar of steel breaking at, say, 135 degrees, can I infer anything at all about which bar possesses more lateral strength if I don't know how much force was applied to either bar?

knotslip, I don't think the two are really "inversely proportional"
take INFI for example...
unless of course you just mean within one knife...
in that case, yes I believe that's generally how it works... but I believe Mike Stewart once told me that most steels kind of have a "sweet spot" where the toughness to strength ratio are highest.

paraphrasing def. but I believe what he was basically telling me was along those lines.

That also brings up the fact that SR's are differentially hardened.
Then it gets pretty confusing.

sr101 holds an edge better. but in terms of brute force and smashing, etc, sr77 would be better... right?

Yes, you can infer that one bar is more flexible. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

not really that simple...
because the sr77 may deform more than the sr101... which has a STRONGER edge.
(though it may get some chips?)

also, when knotslip say's hard and soft... some steels can just act "harder" or "softer" depending on their strength and toughness.

INFI has BOTH qualities... and that's what makes it so amazing.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

By inversely proportional, I mean that given any particular knife or steel - as you make it stronger - it will become less tough. Or if you make a steel tougher you are making it less strong (You cannot increase one without decreasing the other). It is impossible to have both at maximum - that would be the perfect steel. Infi is great and it is strong and tough but to go along with what I'm saying - if they tried to make it tougher - it would invariably lose strength. And, if they tried to make it stronger it would lose toughness...make sense?

OK, let's see if I've got this at all.

Strength is a measure of how much gradually increasing weight can be applied to a bar of steel before it breaks.
Toughness is a measure of how much instantaneous force a bar of steel can absorb before it breaks.

Am I on the right track?

Right. So noss's tests have merit except for just one thing. He doesn't measure anything. We have no idea how much force he's applying with each blow. He's just wailing away with his 3 pound sledge. So his tests aren't objective enough to be scientific. But they're fun to watch anyway! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

OK ... I see what you meant in that other post now.
so laterally... there is no such thing as toughness...
basically?

Well there you go.

Let's go back to SR77 and SR101.

If I've got this right, SR77 is STRONGER than SR101 and SR101 is TOUGHER than SR77. So SR77 will accept more gradually applied weight before it breaks than SR101 will but SR101 can bounce bigger, faster-moving bullets off it than SR77 can.

Do we agree with this statement?

Mike, yes.

KnotSlip, got it! I AM on the right track. Except I think the terms got turned around again. Isn't bending ability "strength" and impact resistance "toughness"?

Where did I put that Advil! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Hang tough, Recon. I think we're getting closer.

Uhhh no Bruce - the other way around...SR-77 is tougher (softer/more deformable) and SR-101 is stronger (harder/less deformable). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

ohhhhhhhhhh now i see the picture in your head. annealed, i don't think there will be a difference in toughness or strength between the steels. hardened to 59hrc, i can see your picture working. after that, i think we go back to either steel failing under the same conditions.

are we only considering 'sweet spot' scenarios?

stop comparing different steels, you're makin this harder on everyone!!!!!!!!!!

Toughness is defined as the ability of a metal to absorb energy and deform plastically before fracturing.

deform plastically. bend.

Title of thread: Scrap Yard SR77 vs SR101

but IM THE ONE confusing people? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/loopy.gif" alt="" />

forgive me, i was referring to the strength vs toughness debate being complicated.

Here is basically what I am trying to get across...

Lets say I have a piece of SR-77 - By HT'ing it I can make it stronger (more heat) or tougher (less heat) - but as I increase one - the other is going to be compromised. But you have to think of this with one steel- not comparing 2 steels like 77 to 101.

Correct. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OK. Now let's go back to the inevitable comparison that is at the very heart of this thread. To use your definitions, based on the current heat treatment Jerry applies to his alloys, SR77 will bend more than SR101 will. So SR77 is TOUGHER than SR101. But SR101 will hold an edge longer than SR77 will, so SR101 is STRONGER than SR77. Right?

"i'm with you. there are complications that come from grain structure, both tightness and length, inclusion of impurities (such as undissolved carbon), carbide fracture, and the tempering of the hardened blade that can change things."

"hypothetically, two annealed blades of the same mythical super steel, say M420V, are heated to austenitic temperature. the iron forms a new lattice structure in which the carbon content becomes soluble and you now have a tight, uniform, rigid grain structure without impurities (not realistic). the pieces are quenched differently. piece F is given a fast quench, maintaining a very rigid structure in the martensite and then tempered repeatedly to achieve a hardness of 56HRC. piece S is quenched a little slower, without tempering and achieves the same hardness with a more relaxed grain (hypothetical!). it's slightly normalized rather than tempered. now we've got the same hardness from the same steel, but they're gonna behave differently. "

OK. Now let's go back to the inevitable comparison that is at the very heart of this thread. To use your definitions, based on the current heat treatment Jerry applies to his alloys, SR77 will bend more than SR101 will. So SR77 is TOUGHER than SR101. But SR101 will hold an edge longer than SR77 will, so SR101 is STRONGER than SR77. Right?

i think you have it man... im tracking with you at least.

Again True, but you're just using quenching to adjust strength and toughness and as one increases the other decreases. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SR-77 IS Scrap Yard steel,always has been,always will be. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" />

Jackhammers use it without Dans heat treat and they last through some of the worlds hardest materials.
My Scrappers in SR-77 have ALWAYS been more than adequate for heavy use that I dish out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Let the Swamp keep their 101,they need something to call their own. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Scrap Yard calls SR-77 its own and it should continue to. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" />

I need to get a buffer and several pads so I can put a mirror polish on my Dog Father. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


SR-77 for Scrappers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" />


Peace.

Wear resistance/edge retention is basically strength. When they talk about blade steels and their strength they are referring to edge retention/wear resistance. That is my understanding of it. Tougher/softer steels will wear faster than stronger/harder steels.

the size and concentration of the carbides plays a huge role in this and you can have carbides of different size in the same steel and carbides of the same size in different steels.

As steel gets tougher (softer) it gets weaker and as you make steel stronger (harder) it gets more brittle (less tough).

Toughness - resistance to breaking, chipping, etc. - Softer steel = tougher steel - Less Carbon

Strength - usually this is the term to explain edge holding ability. - Harder steel = stronger steel. Usually, this means that the steel contains more carbon - carbon makes steels harder/stronger. This means the steel won't bend or give as much as softer steels.


Hope this helps. And, If I am incorrect on anything - please don't hesitate to let me know. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Mag-

There are many many factors here to consider but the thing to keep in mind is that the laws and relationships of these parameters still interact the same. HT, Quenching, alloy make-up, carbide concentrations and grain sizes all make a difference but they don't change the laws or behaviors between these attributes.

If it were possible- we would have a supersteel that could never be broken and could hold an edge indefinitely. Why? Because we could increase strength and toughness continually and simultaneously. the result would be a super-tough and super-strong steel. Infi is maybe the closest thing to this currently but the same laws still apply. Thoughts?

Harder steel = stronger steel.

For the record. I did send back that broken CW to SR but I'm not sure about the outcome.

while you guys figure this out, I'll be outside beating my SOD. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

There is nothing wrong with SR-77's edge retention, that I can insure you! Is SR101 better, very slightly, but not enough to write home about. It is stronger, no way.
I can chop up 2 deer & make many fires with SR-77 without a re-sharpen. This IMO is all that is needed for any survival/serious hunting knife.
I also personally think Scrap Yard knives with it's superbly heat treated SR-77 is the best in the world when you add all the features for what one gets for their money$. I will even stick my neck out & say I prefer their ideas/designs etc over Busse, even with the incredible INFI steel. INFI is GREAT <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> but so is SR-77 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />.
SR-77 is all that is really needed & SYKC will always be my No. 1 Bussekin choice <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Joe Talmadge's Steel FAQ is the acknowledged and most oft-quoted FAQ for the knife industry, Recon. If there's a discrepancy between Joe's definitions and anyone else's definitions, Joe's definitions prevail.

RS,

I appreciate your faith and I hate to dissappoint. But, what I know about steels is a scratch on the surface compared to the pros who work with it, heat treat it and forge it.

I can name qualities I have experienced and read about in regards to use. I can discuss some technical info that I have picked up from more knowledgeable people than myself.
But, I can NOT say I know the MOST about this subject. Sorry.

Some of what "I" believe is JUST "My" opinion based on use experience and LOTS of feedback by others. - I try very hard to make sure I put value in the feedback I take to be worthy.
Obviously, I don't agree with everybody and not everybody is going to agree with my opinions. In spite of my efforts, I have come to conclude that not everybody is going to agree with me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And I have also (sometimes) been able to come to terms with the "Fact" that maybe it is O.K. ( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ) if not everybody sees things my way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


"I" like SR-101's edge properties.... a LOT!
"I" think SR-101 is PLENTY tough for "My" uses! - Obviously, some think they need tougher. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
"I" don't love the fact that SR-101 will rust, but I have learned to deal with it and find dealing with it VERY worthwhile and NOT that hard to deal with. And SR-101 is NOT the worst at corroding. Some VERY highly regarded steels are worse at corroding (like: 1095, 5160, O1, and others) and some VERY highly regarded knife-makers often use those steels because: in spite of being prone to rust, they offer so many EXCELLENT knife qualities: toughness, edge retention and ease of sharpening.

"I" believe SR-77 is AMAZINGLY tough. But, I find SR-101 to be PLENTY tough for me.
"I" can get SR-77 sharp and for certain big choppers, I find SR-77 to have "Sufficient" edge qualities and significantly better than most any machetes or similar tools I am used to dealing with. But, I prefer SR-101's edge qualities quite easily.

Considering combining toughness and edge qualities, I still choose my BR over my DFLE and my CT over the SOD. I did not buy the SOD because I believed my CT is sufficient for my needs and finances are tight. I would not have replaced my CT with the SOD and it would have only served as a back-up.
For those who don't have a CT and can't buy one on the secondary market, the SOD is a GREAT option. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> - But, I didn't need it.

I have my own limits and values when it comes to price.

I might think INFI to be the BEST all-around steel and honestly, I have quite a few pieces of INFI. But, I OFTEN can't justify the price of INFI.

If I had a lot more money, my "Value" system might be different.
If I felt my life were going to ABSOLUTELY depend on a given knife, I would lean towards INFI and make sure it is a knife design I will ALWAYS have around.

Right now, I would LOVE to own a Porsche Cayman. But, I can't even come close to affording or justifying that right now. But, if I had a LOT more money, I would love a Ferrari 430. But, that is just me and "MY" values. Everybody is different.

Knives are NOT that much different.

What one person considers excessive, another considers minimum and vice versa.

MOST people I know consider $40 - $50 a LOT of money for ANY knife.

.... I will just leave it at that. Different values for different people.....


For me, while I might consider INFI the BEST if price is not a concern, I find SR-101 to be one of the BEST values and VERY good at actually doing most everything I want a knife steel to do. For me, INFI might have a higher toughness than SR-101 and better corrosion resistance, but I don't find I need the extra level of toughness and the cost for the improved corrosion resistance is just a bit too high for me in many cases.

..... plus, it often "Does" come down to design for me.

I am STILL not going to get over Talon Holes and non-usable choils on most ANY smaller Busse knife. The SAR4, Meaner, AD and similar just don't work for me. Luckily, for me, on smaller knives, I am even LESS prone to feel I need INFI.

So, SR-101, A2, 3V are ALL VERY good with other designs to be had.

For me, INFI is a BEST value in the mid-sized knives that I might abuse. SARSquatch, SJTAC, FSH, NMSFNO are some of my personal FAVORITE justifications for INFI.

I like the SAR5 a LOT, but I need to do a fair amount of moddifying to it's handle to reduce handle weight and size.

I am and have been interested in owning a Fusion Battle Mistress. But, I love the Res-C on my BR and DFLE for a chopper that even though I consider micarta nicer, I like Res-C for Feel and Function quite a bit on some knives. While I might be proud to own a FBM, I believe when I need it, I would reach for my BR. So, I have not justified a FBM. I did justify a NMFBM (really just a knee-jerk purchase... ), but I got what I expected, a VERY heavy knife that I don't expect to use. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> -
The NMFBM is nice and impressive, but there is NO DOUBT when I need a chopper sized knife, I will still reach for my BR and not the VERY heavy and cumbersom NMFBM.
For that amount of weight and size, I will reach for a WAY cheaper axe over such a high priced knife. I assume there is a good chance I will have to sell my NMFBM some day. For now, it is a queen.

In regards to the "technical" aspects of certain steels, I understand a fair amount, but even I have a LOT to learn and a lot yet I don't understand about hardening, tempering, quenching, annealing, normalizing, decarburizing, Austempering, Austenite, bainite, pearlite, martensite, marquenching, etc. etc. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I may understand many of the terms to a point, but with SO many different steels and SO many different variables among the chemstries of the different steel and what the "intended functional goals" of a given steel might be, and how to actually achieve these processes and end results..... I am "BELOW" novice/amature. Sorry. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

As a user, some of that is just WAY more simple to be left to the makers. And for us users to decide and compare by testing the end results.

If I were to become a knife maker and consider myself "worthy" of knowing ALL about knives, I would feel compelled to learn as much as I could about heat-treating and forging.

But, quite honestly, I think there are a LOT of worthy knife-makers who can make GOOD to GREAT knives and still not have to even get all caught up in that. Sometimes, it is easier to just design, grind, shape and build the knives from well-known quality steels made by respected steel forgers (such as Crucible) and let some other master of heat-treating do the heat-treating.

I am certain Busse does not forge their own steels, but rather has their steels forged for them. Still, I am sure Jerry is VERY knowledgeable about the forging process and how to get what he wants. I am certain he doesn't simply rely on what a forger recommends to him. With years of experience and "MAKING" thousands of knives, you can get there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
But, Jerry obviously heat-treats his steel. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> And I am certain he has "MASTERED" multiple techniques with multiple types of steel for maximum performance. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> And yet, I assure you, even Jerry would tell you there is always some way to make something better. But, better "MUST" be defined by intended use if nothing else.

I have done some of my own field testing. But, I honestly don't do tests like Noss.

I have read a bunch. But, most of what I read compares existing steels. Not about how to work with all or even some of the many types of steels to get certain end results. The book of info would probably fill all the forum pages we have typed over the last 2.5 years! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

I will have to refrain from attempting to learn that, let alone explain it. Sorry.

However, I do know that different steels are better suited for different types of hardening processes.

I assume there are MANY variables on how to perform the different heat-treatments as well.

Some steels are water, oil, salt quench hardened.

Some steels are air hardened. - in A2, the A stands for air-hardened.

If air-hardened, I don't know of a way to differentially heat treat or create a temper line/hamon.... although, it seems possible that there might be a way and some day somebody might (?????)

Hamons and temper lines go way back historically with the Samurai swords.

I think SF has done a very worthy job of outlining some of those techniques. So, for simplicity and since I have been typing a bunch today, I won't try to add too much.

The folding of the steel is not directly related to the temper or hamon. But, more to compliment the temper process and "add" another step of combining desirable end results. The folding can help in toughness and distribution of Various steel properties through the blade. Research San Mai steels and get a sufficient feel for the benefits. However, folding and San Mai is a combining of qualities. Sometimes these qualities are contrasting compromises with the intent of gaining best of both worlds. Depending on alternatives, this can and often has provided the end result being best of both worlds.

Also, INFI is VERY unique in using Nitrogen in the hardening process. The only other steel I know that uses something along this line is H1. But, considering how many different steels are used for MANY industrial uses beyond knives that I am not familiar with, I would assume there might be other options (??????).

Jerry is VERY secretive about how he creates his steel for VERY ligitimate reasons. If certain people knew how to do what Jerry does, someone would likely try to duplicate what he does.

I could mention more technical terms like Gas and liquid carburising and nitriding and on and on. While some of these terms apply to "SOME" steels hardening processes, the truth is I don't know how Jerry does a lot of things to ANY of his steels. And these terms and processes may or may not apply and many combinations and variables of the processes may very well likely be used (??????) How Jerry heat-treats and creates his steel is a mystery for a reason. I could speculate. But, I don't think it is worth my efforts to speculate too much. I don't know and I would have to write pages with half of it being disclaimers and 95% being purely speculative optional scenarios.


It is my understanding that INFI is Air hardened. So, I assume this is one of the main reasons INFI does not have a temper line. With it's use of Nitrogen and it's amazing combination of properties: extreme toughness, excellent corrosion resistance, ease of sharpening and ability to hold incredibly sharp edges, INFI currently rains KING IMO of the BEST all around steel with the best combined properties.

Are some steel more corrosion resistant? - Yes

Are some steel capable of getting and holding a sharper edge? - I think I know of a few.

Are some steels tougher? - Not sure and not that I can say definitely. The only thing close is likely SR-77. But, toughness is a factor of hardness as well. So, I think it is ONLY fair to say tough at comparable hardness levels and with the ability to actually hold a functional sharpened edge. SR-77 is tough, but INFI has better edge properties.

I am getting carried away and need to leave it at that.

I have a bunch of other things I need to get to.

.

RS,

I wasn't trying to get on your case or give you a hard time or "Pin" you for your comments.

I appreciate that you have a LOVE, appreciation and desire for SR-77 and that you support SR-77 with "conviction".

I agree with Dan, I applaud your conviction! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

And I understand that you are not trying to bash SR-101 or say SR-101 is bad. But, sometimes you are SO enthuesiastic about how much you think SR-77 is better and how you discuss what you consider the values of SR-77 to be vs. SR-101 that it "sometimes" comes across poorly for SR-101 when you discuss SR-77 vs. SR-101. Sometimes, the way you word things might sound like you are saying SR-101 "Rusts like crazy" or SR-101 isn't NEARLY tough enough or in the same leaque of toughness as SR-77.

Other times, you are very good about clearly stating simple facts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

But, when it comes to "Facts", I just wanted to point out that YES, while SR-77 is more corrosion resistant and all tests we know of indicate that SR-77 is a bit tougher, these "Facts", while relevant, are only relevant in a small way compared to the big picture.

SR-77 may be tougher, but SR-101 is still PLENTY tough for most. A LOT of people have BEATEN the snot out of SR-101 AND pryed with SR-101 and they still hold.

Corrosion resistance may very well be a worthy factor to consider for some.
SR-77 may be more resistant to corrosion, but not by a huge difference. Both will rust and I think it is VERY fair to point out SR-101 is noticalby more corrosion resistant than MANY very popular knife steels. I just wanted to point that out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Some people like yourself obviously want to KNOW their knife is tougher or as tough as you can buy... even if they might not apparently need any tougher than SR-101. (Point in case: you own and use SR-101, but you haven't broken it either.)
But, if it comes down to just wanting to "Know" you own and use the "toughest", you are right. You are "Full within your rights" to have your preferences. I am fine with that.

I am just trying to make sure that for those who are here on the forums and don't yet know how to compare both steels, they have as accurate a comparison as we can provide.

Sometimes, "our" convictions (including my own) can be misleading - even if we don't intend to be misleading.

In the end, both steels are AT THE TOP of the knife steels in the industry in toughness. But, neither is stainless.

My attempt was just to be "More" clear and accurate as possible about the "Facts". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />





Well said. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />





<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

Strength = resistance to bending = advantage SR77. no! see, sr77 doesn't RESIST bending well.

Toughness = resistance to impact (edge-holding) = advantage SR101. sr101 will eventually chip out on hard impacts won't it? because it's strong and somewhat brittle. (though still very tough)

bruce i didnt want to interrupt yous alls concentration!

ive read tons of 77 vs 101 threads...and ive drawn my own conclusions.


so guys which one is BETTER?!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

For Noss, SR77. For the rest of us, SR101.

Whatever happened to the concept of comparing like materials! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I suspect steel is both stronger AND tougher than brass. But I'm no metallurgist. So I really don't know that for a fact.

So because brass is tougher, it would absorb impact better than steel and because steel is stronger, it would resist breaking under a gradually increasing load better than brass. Correct?

Nope. You just flipped them again, KS! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

Strength = resistance to bending = advantage SR77.
Toughness = resistance to impact (edge-holding) = advantage SR101.

If you want to disagree with someone, don't argue with me. Argue with Jerry Busse and Joe Talmadge. I'm using their definitions of "strength" and "toughness".

Strength = resistance to bending = advantage SR77.
Toughness = resistance to impact (edge-holding) = advantage SR101.

Thats it. End of thread! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Bruce you are right. I am with you, sorry Knotslip... Argue with BOSS H0G! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Bruce summed this thread up after 13 pages <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> with this sentence....

SR77 is STRONGER than SR101.
SR101 is TOUGHER than SR77.

Well, we're back at this thread again. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Some of you guys change your minds too easily <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I am not one to change my mind that easily and to change my view on this I will require some significant proof. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Toughness and hardness cannot both increase simultaneously.

We know that SR101 takes and holds an edge a bit better than SR77

My dear Slipknot friend,I couldn't agree more! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The end result is SR-77 is Scrap Yard steel and SR-101 is Swamp steel and they should keep it that way! That's what the poll was 15 pages ago! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Although I am looking forward to my new S-5's with more than eager anticipation. They could announce the closing sale day any day and I would then begin counting days to hawk the mailbox. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

All this fuss over a Scrap Yard knife in Swamp Rat steel. I LOVE IT! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

S-5 is going to be soooooo sweet eh? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Peace.

The more I think about SR101 the more I like it, the more I think about INFI the more I think it is overpriced...time for me to head for the bunker.

Compare the price of the M9LE and the NMSFNO LE.

SR101 may not have quite the performance of INFI, but it is still pretty high performance steel with the Busse heat treat, and the price makes it very attractive. Compare the price of the M9LE and the NMSFNO LE.

Wouldn't it be awesome if Dan re-released some of the old scrappers in SR101?
I vote yes!
I

An SR77 Khukuri with a Res-C handle is a no-brainer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

An SR77 Khukuri with a Res-C handle is a no-brainer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

My hope is that Jerry makes a ton of money on his INFI version of the Khuk and then lets Dan construct some out of SR77/Res-C so that ordinary folks can afford them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

I dunno, those Gurkha dudes seem to think the kukri is a pretty effective tool for a soldier... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


To me, a kukri is like an ultimate machete, and it tends to make sense in those situations where machetes make sense. In a desert, maybe not so much, but in thick brush I love my kukri for clearing a path or anything else that requires a lot of slashing and chopping.

A Khukri (sp) has as much practical purpose in modern warfare as [censored] on a boar. Now for camping nuts who arent going to combat, that like chopping weeds/wood/brush/etc, yea, its great. For modern soldiering, sorry, no cigar. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" />

That seems pretty disrespectful to a honorable fighting force with a long history of service to one of our closest allies, and a force which still uses those knives in modern soldiering. Say it doesn't fit your particular needs in the types of things you're trained in, but I see no reason to dump on the Gurkha's favorite tool.


I'm one of those inferior camp nuts, and I find lots of use for it - I certainly don't plan to ever use the thing in combat, but again I wonder if you've ever actually laid hands on a kukri (one of many accepted spellings, seeing as how it's a translation from another alphabet), or if you're parroting what someone told you in a class or you read from a book?