constructive advice on Scrapper 5

Okay, my Scrapper 5 made it through customs and arrived yesterday. I was very much surprised at how light this knife feels in the hand and really appreciate that in a belt knife. The muddy grip feels great in the hand and the ergo's of the handle are superb. I think I like the SOD handle a touch better but the more I hold onto the muddy handle, the more I appreciate it. I also like the contours in profile on the handle. I often don't like aggressive handle contours as I find if they don't fit perfectly they detract rather than add to comfort. The S5's are shallow but defined enough to improve grip and feel great.

One small disappointment was that the length of the cutting edge is 4 5/8" not 5", with some of the real estate being taken up by the choil. I should have known this was the case as the SOD was spec'd the same. Still, I was expecting 5" cutting edge and would have preferred that over the slightly smaller one.

The other thing I'm not so fond of is the thumb ramp. Because of the handle size and my handsize, my thumb naturally wants to rest on top of rather than behind the thumb ramp. While not pointy, the top of the ramp ends up in the middle of my thumb and that detracts from comfort where if it was gone it would be a superb fit. To orient my thumb onto the thumb ramp properly, I need to grip the knife further back on the handle. This increases the distance of my hand from the cutting edge and will decrease power. Not to get over carried away but on this issue but when using the choil to choke up on the blade, my thumb rests forward of the ramp wants to slide down the ramp. This creates the opposite effect of the ramp's function and decreases security of grip.

Back to the positives. This knife came extremely sharp. I will eventually convex it, but because the edge is so nicely tuned at present, I'll probably keep it this way until it needs sharpening. I absolutely love the shape of the blade and the subtle drop point. The point is beautifully sharp. One thing I get annoyed at is a flat point on a knife and the S5 certainly has a pointy and highly usable point.

Thickness looks somewhere between 3/16" and 5/32" but its hard to tell with the coating. Balance is great. I really like the square choils also having gotten used to the one on my SOD.

So overall I'm very happy with this knife. My only real negative is the ramp and I wanted to post my thoughts as constructive feedback to Dan. Afterall, there is a slight chance that he might choose to grind it off in the LE-version. If he did that, I wouldn't hesitate to buy the LE version. Unlike all the infi rumours out there, I'd just love to see this blade in the same steel with a flat grind and lacking the ramp. Everything else is a winner.

Great job on this one Dan.

I like the ramp.

I'm sure it fits some peoples hands better than mine. I like everything else about the S5 though. Debating about having a knife maker friend just grind it off before getting it fitted to kydex.

I'm the opposite - I like the thumb ramp, and dislike the square choil.

I like both...I think it just depends on hand size, etc...But the S5 feels great in my hand. The thumb ramp makes the grip that much more stable.

MM- I wonder how hard it would be to round out the choil? Do you customize any of your knives?

When I choke up one the choil, I sometimes place my hands in front of the ramp. Feels just as comfortable to me.

The most customization I do is convexing edges. I don't think I'll be rounding the choil out.


Honestly, I rarely use choils on knives this small - I'd rather have the sharp part come all the way up to the guard.

I gotta admit that I like having a small choil on my knives; it makes sharpening them a lot easier on the belt sander.

That being said, yeah, the S5 choil is pretty large; I'd rather see it be about 1/3 to 1/4 that size, but it's not gonna keep me from buying it, that's for sure! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm in the no-ramp camp but still love the knife. Would love to see a full flat on the LE.

Pink: I thought Bark river said that was the way that the thumb ramp was intended to be used? ..at least on their knives.
btw: nice color combo.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yeah I've heard that too. I guess it really depends on the knife and person, whatever is more comfortable. When I use the thumb ramp, it's mainly for light cutting (like peeling fruit skins), my thumb acts as a control for the angle. For most heavy duty cutting, I mostly only grip the handle.
Thanks!

+1

In all fairness, choils and thumb ramps are two common knife features that are hard to get any sort of unanimous preference for a given design.

*** Yet another reason why I feel satin is "Better" and personally prefer satin: I can make certain modifications without spoiling the paint. Satin mods on satin finish blend in a LOT better than satin mods on paint.

Luckily, I just received my two S5Cg’s (literally – as I was writing this. – So, I have changed a bit of my post before even posting)

I think thumb ramps especially are just one of those knife features that polarize many users because of different hand sizes and different preferences. Some will like and others won't.
You can try moving a ramp a bit this way or that ….. and still: some will like and others won't.

Personally, I have modified many Busse and kin ramps over the years. The RMD is one of the VERY few ramps that works decent for me. And I don't know if it is just me, but for me the ramp actually fits with my thumb on the front side of the ramp in the normal grip. Even the RMD's ramp could be a bit more refined for my preferences - slightly rounded at the edges and slightly reduced in size by grinding "backwards".

The Busse Hell Razor might be the only other Busse and kin ramp that doesn't bother me.

My list of ramps that I have slightly to significantly modified or just completely removed over the years is quite long.

.... and for the record, the Bark River Bravo1's ramp bothers me as well. – Maybe I just have LONG thumbs along with big hands and long fingers. But, SAME problem: The peak of the Bravo1's ramp is RIGHT smack in the middle of my thumb. I can pull (cramp) my thumb back, but it doesn't feel natural. It feels cramped and pulled back.
I can reach my thumb forward of the ramp, but from the natural grip, reaching that far forward changes the dynamics of the knife a LOT and the ramp still pokes my thumb as opposed to feeling like it fits comfortably. I have heard Mike say the jimping is there for the fire-sticks - not for the thumb. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> - ... whatever. The seems silly to me. I actually like the jimping "FOR" my thumb and NOT for fire-sticks, but to each their own.
As with MANY Busse and kin knives and even on the Bark River, I sort of wish the ramp were forward more and a bit lower.

***** HOWEVER, I received my S5CG’s today and I am HAPPY to say the ramp is pretty decent for me!!!!

Over-all, I think the S5CG has a LOT of GREAT potential. But, I am seeing a couple of minor “tweaks” that might make it VERY highly suited for being one of my favorite knives of it’s size.

I have been seriously considering modifying my RMD to make the RMD’s blade shaped more like the S5CG’s. I had designed a concept a long time ago combining the RMD’s handle with a smaller blade shaped like the SJTAC’s blade. For my RMD, I also had wanted to remove the handle and drill out some holes in the tang to lighten the handle and over-all weight of my RMD.
But, then Dan came out with the S5CG and I had not yet made my RMD mods.


I had seen where sumoj275 mentioned he felt the S5CG to be a tad blade heavy. I actually have to concur, but only by being VERY picky.
In the natural grip, I find the thumb ramp well placed and well angled. But, there is something about the balance that makes me want to choke up about ¼” – 3/8” and wrap my index finger around the forward nub of Res-C behind the guard. The S5CG seems to fit my large hands and balance very nicely there, but the nub is more wide and square than it needs to be to fit comfortably. So, I am seriously considering doing a Res-C modification to that front nub.

Anyway, here is how I modified some of my Scrap Yard ramps to feel better for me and still allow a bit of a ramp - when the peak of the ramp from the factory falls right under the middle of my thumb - which it seems to VERY often do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

If I keep some of the ramp vs. just completely removing it, I have ground the ramp "Forward" which lowers the ramp a bit, increases room for my thumb in the normal grip behind the ramp - while still allowing for a bit of an index on the forward side of the ramp when choked up.

I had already started making mods to Blan's pic as I didn’t really expect my S5CG’s to show up today and Blan’s pic was a good pic for showing mods:

Ultimately, there is a pretty reasonable chance, I will just prefer the ramp completely ground off of mine. We'll see. So, I showed the ramp completely ground off on the bottom pic.




The above is just to show some ideas of what “Could” be done and some possible options to consider trying before just completely grinding off the ramp. Some might want a ramp still.
To be conservative, in some cases, I like to try to save the ramp first by grinding it forward to see if I can salvage the ramp. If it works, great. If not, I can "Then" just completely remove it. But, by trying save it, I allow myself more options to consider. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


-------------------------

But, then I received my S5CG today. As I mentioned, I find the ramp works very well for me in the natural grip. But, I also find myself wanting to choke up that extra ¼” – 3/8” behind the guard.

The Res-C feel just fine and near perfection on my SS4, Bog Dog and others. But, I think the S5's more foward blade, blade balance and guard/choil layout seems to make me want to hold the handle a bit more forward and have a bit more handle room. So, I am considering modding the Res-C.

I was planning on waiting for the LE. But, I doubt I can. I want to see this dude satin and how good it can be. So,....:

First, I might shave the Res-C forward a bit, then because of the boxy width of that part of the Res-C, I “MIGHT” trim the width of the Res-C Guard down just a bit. But, I will check feel as I go and go slowly. That width feels fine if holding behind the handle normally, but it might need narrowed a tad if I grind the Res-C guard forward a bit. We’ll see.

To compare what I envision the handle mod to be more like, I overlaid my RMD on the S5CG’s Res-C handle.




You have to be careful when cutting the Res-C forward. You don’t want to make the Res-C too thin.

**** And the reality is that I doubt Busse ever intended for the Res-C to be made thinner there at the belly of the handle behind the guard. It isn't very thick as is. So, CARE and consideration should be taken for such mods.

I have overlaid an old X-ray of the SS4’s tang over the Res-C mudder grip to compare curvature of the tang and know where it is. The tang tapers slowly and there isn’t much Res-C that can be removed.:





**** So, I hereby post my: WARNING and DISCLAIMER against others screwing up your Res-C and I can’t be responsible for anyone screwing up their handles if they try to make mods. I am only suggesting this as what I think and will probably try. But, such mods might not be for everyone and if you do something wrong, you could ruin your knife or handle. Care should be taken.
Further, I am sure such mods void “Handle” related warranty from Busse. – Or at least, "I" think they should void the "Handle" warranty. I don't think these mods should void the knife's warranty against failure. But, that's not my call and just my opinion. So, consider.

After I cut the Res-C forward a bit, I think the ramp won’t be quite right anymore. So, I will likely have to grind it a bit more forward.

In regards to round vs. flat choil. I am sure I prefer a bit more round. And I also prefer the choil cut up into the ricasso just a bit more.

So, here are the changes I am considering:

From this:



To this:




.... and as I mentioned, I might just completely remove the ramp like the SS4. We'll see.


---------------

As is, I think the S5CG is AWESOME. And I really believe most people will be VERY good with it as is. But, I am being picky. Because I really see this S5CG as being VERY worthy for serious use and carry. And for me, I likely prefer some minor mods to better suit my hand and preferences. YMMV.

Most people don't want to change a knife. I like to personalize my users to fit my preferences as close as possible.



---------------------


The S5 has my FAVORITE all-round use blade shape!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

For the record, I weighed my S5CG at 6.75 ounces. What a LOT of knife for the weight!!!


For comparison:


SS4................. = 5.5 ounces; .200" thick ; 4.25" blade; 9" oal

S5CG................. = 6.75 ounces; .185” thick; 5.125” blade; 10.125” oal

Ratmandu (micarta)....= 10.0 ounces; .189" thick; 5.3125" blade; 10.5" oal


Picking a favorite is getting SO HARD!!!


.

See, that's all you gotta do MM. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Awesome post Knifeguy - thanks for that. I'm going to muddle on the ramp mod for a few weeks yet. Been handling it all day and am coming to grips with it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Thing is, gripping the handle without my thumb on the spine just feels perfect to me.

Lots of folks talk about it being blade heavy, which it is to a small degree. But then again this is such a light knife that I find the balance really doesn't come into play. Its not like the SOD where you have to excert energy to counterbalance the weight forward tendency of the knife during non-chopping chores. You are still doing that with the S5, but it is so little energy the only way you realize it is by releasing you grip and watching where the blade swings.

I agree that the S5 is a fine knife and truly worthy of belt carry. Good luck on your prospective mods!

Well.... whatever works best for you.

Personally, I almost always have my thumb on the spine of my smaller chore/task type knives for control. So, thumb placement, feel, comfort, ergos, etc. on spines for such knives is important to me. But, that is me. Heck, I am so picky, I modified the ramp on my Yard Guard and many other larger knives. Actually, if a knife is a PURE chopper like the DFLE, the ramp doesn't mean much to me. But, if the knife starts falling into some all-round functions like a Yard Guard and smaller, even if I don't always have my thumb on the ramp, I want it to fit my preferences for when I do use it.



I am not sure I understand the relevant comparison between the SOD and S5 considering how differently I use them... especially in the part where you mention: "watching where the blade swings". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I don't see much "swinging" of the S5's blade. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> The S5 isn't a chopper. I can swing it. But, not enough size or weight to chop much of anything worth swinging it at. Smaller knives like the S5 will baton better if needed to cut certain thicknesses and even then, the S5 has limits - IMO.

But, I want to clarify that when I agreed about the blade being a "tad" heavy and blade forward balance, I was being pretty picky. The balance is NOT a big issue or problem on this S5. The improvement by gripping forward about 1/4" is noticable to me, but I believe the change in balance would not be considered significant to many people. Just a minor obvservation and "minor" preference on my part. As you stated: "the balance really doesn't come into play", I generally agree. For the most part, the slight change in balance by holding forward about 1/4" is mostly a preference in feel and not much a factor in function. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> But, I am that picky sometimes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/paperbag.gif" alt="" />







NO QUESTION!!!! I think most people have been VERY excited about this blade from original pics. No doubt there are MANY loving this knife even more once in hand.

For my part, I find the S5 nearing nirvana. With some minor tweaks, I might be there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


And yet, oddly, I am sure the quest will continue - even if no further need exists. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

.

My post is over-blown KS. Sorry. But, the reality is that with some basic tools the ramp could be modified faster and easier than the time and effort it took me to write the post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

The choils aren't hard to modify either for those looking to modify it.

Most belt sanders don't have a wheel small enough. However a Dremel with a sanding drum works pretty decent - even if a bit slow and tedious on hardened steel. Just be patient and don't let it over heat.

Personally, I have some sanding drums that chuck into my drill press. I prefer this as the speed is better than the high speed of the Dremel. Also, the larger drum sizes are better suited. And most importantly: with a drill press, I have both hands free to hold the knife! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

IDEALLY, I would have a belt sander with changeable smaller wheels. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> - Maybe someday.

I have actually been trying to come up with some sort of "Rig" to utilize my smaller 1" belts with my drill press.

The problem with the sanding drums is the drums wearing out and heat.

Belts last WAY longer and seem to stay cooler better.


The mods to the Res-C are potentially touchy for the simple reason of not wanting to go too thin. However, modding Res-C isn't that hard. You can cut it with a sharp blade and you can sand it as long as you don't let it heat up as it will start to melt.

A barrel cutter wheel on a Dremel would likely shape Res-C quite well too.

Some tips on modding Res-C:

Modifying & Reshaping Res-C


Good luck.

Regarding balance. I was trying to suggest that this knife is so light that balance really doesn't mean much to how it was used. I wouldn't really use this knife for chopping like the SOD. I simply meant that the only time I notice balance on this knife is when I check the balance point. When I'm holding it, the knife is simply too light for its balance to affect how I'm holding it or gripping it.

Like I say, on the ramp thing. I do use the spine for many types of bushcraft holds like when I'm push cutting. I'm going to play with it for a few weeks and see how it works out before I commit to the mod. I actually found a leather sheath from one of my customs that fits this knife well so this affords me a chance to evaluate before getting the kydex done.

Yep the blade shape is pretty awesome! Thanks for your response and your detailed post on your mods again.

Great info . Thanks

kgd,

I think we understand each other.

Your bottom line is very reasonable. Spend some time with the S5 and use it a bit to get a sure feel for what you want to do before doing it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Everybody is different with slightly different preferences. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Good luck.

Hey KG - I thought your post was great. I was just teasing MM because I mentioned to him about re-shaping the choil and he replied that he wasn't in to modding these things. I always enjoy reading your posts - they are very informative. Keep it up! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

i want a bottle opener in my choil on my SOD and S5's <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I don't think I could reshape any of my knives beyond a slight mod to the edges. It would be like admitting I bought a knife that wasn't for me. Besides. I wouldn't want to wreck my warranty on the greatest 5 incher made IMO.

Its all cool KS <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yeah Recon1 - the warranty is a valid consideration, although I've developed a pretty hard earned trust on the performance of scrapyards based on the SOD.

Bushman - that just might work - be a PITA to grind out though. Just you, a 1/8" file and 3 years <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I agree. I think all knives should have bottle openers on them!

Wise man. ^ ^ ^ ^ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Good read KG on mods. For me, and this is because of a messed up hand, the S5 just doesn't balance well at all. For me on a knife this size, I like a balanced feel. I guess it really comes down to how a knife fits each individual and there needs.

Sumoj,

If balance is THAT critical for you, you are going to have a very slim selection with the ultra-lightweight Scrap Yard Res-C handles.

My SS4 balances perfectly on the middle of my index finger in the normal grip part of the handle.

My MPLE balances at the back of my index finger. So, it is a tad lighter in the blade.

I don't have the BDLE. But, I assume it balances somewhere near the index finger in the normal grip.

The S5 balances at the rear of the choil. So, I guess for you to happily use the S5, you are going to need to make that choil pretty cozy.

But, the reality is, if you find the balance of the S5 not suitable for your literal "Needs" and "Need" all your knives to have perfect balance, I don't understand how you are going to use most any Scrap Yard knife short of the three lightweights listed above.

The Res-C handles are SO light that most any blade outweighs the handle.
Even the shorter and very slender bladed, full-height grind Bog Dog which is a tad shorter than the S5 still balances just barely forward of the index finger with the ultra-light Res-C handles. And you can't get a much slimmer blade than the Bog Dog's at 0.14" thick.

The Bog Dog's blade is 4.625" vs. the S5's blade is about 1/2" longer at 5.125".

But, if neutral balance is what you are looking for and a blade even close to the S5's, the Bog Dog's balance isn't far off with a pretty darn close to neutral balance. The Bog Dog might be your ticket!!!

The Bog Dog has the slimmest blade of any knife combined with Res-C ever made (to my knowledge) at 0.14" thick and full height grind.
The Bog Dog is much more of a slicer vs. the S5 feeling significantly more substantial with it's thicker blade (0.185" thick), saber grind and actually a bit taller blade. I measure my Bog Dog at about 1.1875" tall through most of the middle of the blade and the S5 at close to 1.3125" tall through most of the center of the blade. Little features like the thumb ramp, smaller choil and larger guard also add a little extra forward weight to the S5.


For comparison:

SS4...........= 5.5 ounces; .200" thick ; 4.25" blade; 9" oal
Bog Dog.......= 5.0 ounces; .140" thick ; 4.75" blade; 9.56" oal
Mud Puppy (LE)= 5.0 ounces; .185” thick; 3.25” blade; 8.25” oal
S5CG..........= 6.75 ounces; .185” thick; 5.125” blade; 10.125” oal

Vexillarius...= 5.25 ounces; .14” thick; 3.75” blade (from front of choil); 8.25” oal

Yard Keeper LE........= 7.5 ounces; .268" thick; 4.5" blade; 9" oal
Howler (2nd gen-Res-C)= 5.5 ounces; .188" thick; 4.5" blade; 9" oal

DMCG.................= 9.0 ounces; .270" thick; 5.25" blade; 9.75" oal

HRLM...............= 9.0 ounces; .190" thick; 4.13" blade; 9.3" oal
Ratmandu (micarta).= 10.0 ounces; .189" thick; 5.3125" blade; 10.5" oal
SAR5...............= 11.0 ounces; mine 0.200” (stated .1875”), 5.0” blade; 10.0” oal



I don't have my Bandicoot anymore, but it might be the only other Res-C knife I can think of that might have a nuetral balance (???). It has a small blade.

The Howling Rat is noticably blade heavy as are every other small Res-C handled knife I can think of.

To increase your chances of nuetral balance, you will have to increase your handle weight - which means micarta or G10 = Swamp Rat or Busse.

I HIGHLY recommend the Vex if you can find one. It is still very light-weight at 5.25 ounces (compared to 6.75 for the S5), it actually is handle heavy and balances at the middle finger (but, I assume that is better for you ????), fits my hand like a glove and has a GREAT blade shape and over-all design - IMO.

The Hairy Carries are very nice. But, the handles are bit small for me.

The HRLM is very nice. Personally, I prefer it a lot more with the minor mods I made to the choil and thumb recess on mine. But, otherwise a great knife.
However, the HRLM is quite heavy (a beast) compared to the ultra-light Res-C/Mudder handled knives. With it's beefy handle and shorter blade the HRLM balances at the rear of the index finger - between the index and middle finger.

The only knives that really compare in size to the S5 are the Bog Dog, Ratmandu, and Dumpster Mutt - Or if interested in Busse: SAR5, SAR4, BAe (similar to HRLM), BA3, and other smaller Busses.

I don't have the thinner Dumpster Mutts. I just have the ultra thick bladed DMCG which is way blade heavy. But, I doubt the thinner bladed DM's are neutral balanced either - again because of the lightweight Res-C handles.

The Ratmandu in micarta or G10 both balance about perfectly neutral on the index finger. And the Ratmandu is a VERY close comparison to the S5 in design, but a LOT heavier because of both full tang and handle material. Ratmandu's weigh about 10 - 11 ounces depending on handle material (G10 weighs more) - again compared to the similar sized S5 with ultra-light handle only weighing about 6.75 ounces.

The SAR5 is a knife with GREAT potential IMO. But, IMO, it needs the handle size and weight reduced. As is it is PLENTY handle heavy and balances at the front of the middle finger.

I don't have the SAR4, but I would be very confident it is handle heavy.

I have never owned either Badger Attack. But, feel plenty confident that both are either balanced or handle heavy (???). The BAe is quite chunky and is listed at 12.5 ounces. The BA3 is both smaller and thinner. I would guess it to weight closer to 9 ounces (????). But, they both have NON-functioning choils.... don't get me started. Actually, the HRLM had one of those cr#@@y choils. But, I reground my choil backwards into the guard to make it functional. You can't really do that with the Busse knives because of the Talon Hole. Actually, you can, but you have to take out the Talon hole and left with a very thin funny looking guard.

Anyway, if you are looking for (and "Need") a neutral balanced knife from Busse and kin, I hope the above info helps.

Good luck.

.