Ammo selection

Boy, am I behind the times. First time I've heard of this one.
Thought it might be nice to have a thread dedicated to ammo (handgun, rifle, shotgun) types and selections.
So here is an article I just read.

http://p2t2solutions.com/fbi-finally-decides-on-standard-service-rounds-for-its-use/

No luck with the link.

Here is another link.

http://looserounds.com/2014/09/21/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/

I have no problem with modern ammo in any of the big 3 defensive rounds. 9mm, 40 or 45.

In all honesty the FBI doesn't know very much about Street level Law Enforcement.

Of all the agencies they are one of the least likely to be involved in a shooting.

That wasn't always the case. We learned a whole lot from the FBI shooting on 4/11/86 in Miami. A tragic and painful lesson though.

YUP, I agree MB. What they should have done is figure that departments have the most officer shootings and then question them about what went right and wrong and then make the determination. The Feds rely on intimidation and reputation mostly and don't really have to "Pull the trigger" as much as their "Studies" would tend to indicate. Just my 2c and I could VERY easily be wrong.

Pretty much what I linked to. I clicked on the link and it said that the server was under maintenance.

And here is the accompanying article they mentioned.

Duty/Defense Carry Ammunition Selection
http://looserounds.com/2014/02/02/dutydefense-carry-ammunition-selection/

In a nut shell, here is the recommended ammo for Defensive carry.

The Rounds listed bellow in 9mm, .40 Cal and 45 ACP, have been tested extensively and/or meet your carry standard.

9mm

Barnes XPB 115gr HP (35515) such as loaded by Cor-Bon (DPX09115)
Winchester Partition Gold 124gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester PDX1 124 gr +P JHP (S9MMPDB)
Winchester PDX1 147 gr JHP (S9MMPDB1)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger Bonded 124 gr +P JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr JHP +P+ (RA9TA)
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester Bonded 147gr JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
Speer Gold Dor 124gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P (53617)
Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP (53619)
Remington Golden Saber 124 gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD)
Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Federal Tactical 124gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal Tactical 135gr JHP +P (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)
Federal HST 124gr JHP +P (P9HST3)

.40 S&W

Barnes all-copper bullets (140 & 155gr) loaded by: Cor-Bon (DPX40140)
Winchester Partition Gold 165gr JHP (RA401P)
Winchester PDX1 165 gr JHP (S40SWPDB)
Winchester PDX1 160 gr JHP (S40SWPDB1)
Winchester Ranger 165gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Ranger 180gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester Bonded 180gr JHP (Q4355)
Speer Gold Dot 155gr JHP (53961)
Speer Gold Dot 180gr JHP (53962)
Federal Tactical 165gr JHP (LE40T3)
Federal Tactical 180gr JHP (LE40T1)
Federal HST 180gr JHP (P40HST1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)

.45ACP

Barnes XPB/TAC-XP 185gr HP loaded by:
Cor-Bon (DPX45185)
Taurus (TCB45ACP185HP)

Winchester PDX1 230 gr JHP (S45SWPDb)
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP +P (RA45TP)
Federal Tactical 230gr JHP (LE45T1)
Federal HST 230gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal HST 230gr JHP (P45HST2)
Speer Gold Dot 230gr JHP (23966)
Speer Gold Dot 230gr +P JHP (53969)

This might be of interest.

http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm.php

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

And here is a BUNCH of stuff to pick and choose from
http://howlandhomesteadfarm.com/mouseguns/www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm

Here's one from Speer.
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

Hornady
http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/ballistics/2012CatalogCenterSpread.pdf

Federal 9mm hst ammo.

SPECIFICATIONS (124 GR/124 GR +P):

Velocity in Feet Per Second
Muzzle: 1150/1200
25: 1095/1136
50: 1049/1083
75: 1010/1039
100: 977/1002

Energy in Foot Pounds
Muzzle: 364/396
25: 330/355
50: 303/323
75: 281/297
100: 263/277


************************************************************
SPECIFICATIONS (147 GR/147 GR +P):

Velocity in Feet Per Second
Muzzle: 1000/1050
25: 976/1020
50: 953/994
75: 933/970
100: 914/949

Energy in Foot Pounds
Muzzle: 326/360
25: 311/340
50: 297/323
75: 284/307
100: 273/294

REMINGTON GOLDEN SABRE
9mm +P BJHP 124 384 1180

WINCHESTER RANGER T
9mm+P T-Series 127 441 1250

Nothing wrong with Golden Sabres or Gold Dots. Both of those have served us very well in real life usage.

Well I found out where I can get the Federal HST3 +P ammo for about 40 dollars more for 500. Now THAT is supposed to be a good round.

OK, I like 147gr 9mm +P ammo. BUT my concern is, will it have enough energy at possibly 100 yards (out of a 16 inch barrel) to actually work as designed. I feel that after reading the ballistics on the 124gr, they would preform, but I would rather have the 147 grainers. What say you dogs. (MOST of my shooting IF NEEDED, I feel very confidant would be no more than 50 yards, but who knows.

Now if we are talking strictly handguns, 25 yards would NORMALLY be the max with the Carbine taking over from there out or even being the PRIMARY.

This is, I believe a valid question no matter if you are talking 9mm, 40 or 45 with the lighter or heavier bullets.

Found this for handgun ballistics all the way out to 100 yards!

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.handgun-ballistics.html

BUT the question still remains, what VELOCITY and FPE are required for reliable expansion and penetration at 50 and again 100 yards?

Here is a good ballistics calculater.

http://www.federalpremium.com/ballistics_calculator/

A Pistol caliber carbine isn't a 100 yard gun. It will do in a pinch but that's not what it was made for.

Expansion or not, I'm not going to stand in front of anyone and dare them to shoot me with it

I have spent several hours on this today. All I can come up with is that hollow points do not all expand uniformly. Different velocities are needed for different brands. But the consensus seems to be that about 1,080 fps is the minimum velocity needed to expand most bullets reliably. Ballistic tables or a ballistic calculator would be needed to see if a particular brand and bullet weight satisfies that requirement at the required distance.

MB and Ray, I agree, 100 yards is in my NON scientific opinion Is to far. BUT in a pinch... To me personally it will,even with the 16 inch barrel, be a 50 yard weapon at the most. That sounds about right for MOST encounters.

Found this site and here are 4 HST ammo comparisons:

This is the home page.
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/

Federal ammo page
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/handgun/default.aspx

Here is the Speer LE ammo page
http://le.atk.com/ammunition/speer/handgun/default.aspx

Thanks for the links. Some good info there. I will bookmark them.

When I find some good stuff I like to pass the information along. You can never have enough information. Well sometimes you can, but that isn't for this site.

Interesting "Calculator" from Hornady.

http://www.hornady.com/hits/calculator

Debunking Steel Cased ammo

http://bearingarms.com/debunking-st..._medium=fbpage&utm_campaign=gpupdate

And here is a 10,000 round test using steel case and brass cased ammo with test results and charts.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

Nothing like this has been posted here before that I know of, so folks were talking about it on another forum I read and thought someone here might find it useful.

This chart breaks down how many shells equal a pound for each caliber.

Interesting tidbits: AK-47 ammo weighs about 1 pound for every 27 rounds where as .22 ammo is 133 rounds per lb.
So basically you could carry 100 rounds of AK ammo which is around 3.6lbs or 500 rounds of .22 at 3.7 lbs. lol maybe the .22 survival gun enthusiasts are on to something.

Pistol Calibers

.380
Rounds per pound: 47.06
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 2.13

9mm Luger
Hornady 115gr JHP/XTP
Rounds per pound: 38.10
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 2.63

.38 Special
Rounds per pound: 34.78
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 2.88

.357Mag.
Remington UMC 125gr SJHP
Rounds per pound: 30.77
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 3.25

.357Mag.
Handload 158gr JHP
Rounds per pound: 28.07
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 3.56

40S&W
Rounds per pound: 28.07
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 3.56

.44magnum
200gr Hornady XTP HP
Rounds per pound: 22
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 4.57

.44magnum
240gr LSWC Bullet
Rounds per pound: 19.7
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 5.07

.45ACP
230gr Winchester Ball
Rounds per pound: 21.33
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 4.69

RifleCalibers

.22 LR
Remington Golden 36gr PHP
Rounds per pound: 133.33
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 0.75

.223/5.56X45
(milsurp) British Radway Green SS109 63gr
Rounds per pound: 37.21
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 2.69

30-30 Winchester (a.k.a. .30WCF)
Winchester Silvertip 170gr flat nose
Rounds per pound: 20.28
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 4.92

.243Whinchester
75gr Hornady V-max Handloads
Rounds per pound: 22.22
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 4.5

.308 Winchester
Remington UMC 150gr FMJ
Rounds per pound: 19.05
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 5.25

.308 Winchester
168gr BTHP Match Bullet
Rounds per pound: 18.67
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 5.35

7mm Remington Magnum
Winchester 175gr Power Point
Rounds per pound:14.68
Weight per 100 rounds(lbs):6.81

7.62X39
Wolf Steel Case 122gr FMJ
Rounds per pound:27.59
Weight per 100 rounds(lbs):3.63

Shotgun Calibers

12GA 2 3/4" Slug
Federal HI-Shok Slug
Rounds per pound: 10.53
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 9.50

12GA 2 3/4" #4 Shot
Remington Express 4BK
Rounds per pound: 9.30
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 10.75

12GA 2 3/4" #7 1/2 Shot
Federal #7 1/2 Shot
Rounds per pound: 10.53
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 9.75

12GA 2 3/4"00 Buckshot
Federal Express 9 Pellet
Rounds per pound: 9.76
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 10.25

12GA 3" Slug
Federal 3" Rifled Slug
Rounds per pound: 8.89
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 11.25

It would appear that the steel case "myth" is upheld in the lucky gunner test. The real issue with most steel cased is the Bi-metal bullets and some of the brands have low enough powder charges as to become unreliable.(Tula refuses to cycle my Adams arms mid length piston upper.) Yes if you are comfortable with changing your own barrels and you use inexpensive ones then steel ammo is just fine but when you add in the cost and inconvenience of bringing your rifle to a gun smith that argument kind of goes out the window as well. As always this is my not so humble opinion and your mileage may very.

Well I got an answer from Federal about velocity increase of their 124 and 147 grain +P ammo from the 16.5 inch barrel of my CX4. They said probably 25-30 fps. I was expecting more considering the barrel length was about 11-12 inches longer than what they test from (4-5 inch barrels).

Yeah that seems unimpressive I guess that the powder they are using is a fast burner and is pretty much done after 5 inches. I wonder how fast you could push it with reloading.

Just a few thoughts on the topic:
I don't worry too much about the steel case stuff if it is shot in a gun designed for it or that is shot in normal usage. That LG test really only showed that if you take a torch to any metal pipe/barrel to rapidly heat it up to make it soft and then run any kind of reamer through it, the harder objects will obviously be more abrasive. The barrel wear is directly related to the overheated barrel from firing so many rounds so fast more than just the type of projectile going through it, but the powder/bullet type would play into it slightly. The old M60 machine guns had interchangeable barrels and special mitts to change them out with for that same reason, as shooting enough non tracer rounds to cherry a barrel could destroy it in a matter of minutes even though it was just lead bullets being used. If you didn't change it out and pushed the same barrel too hard for too long it could just meltdown and go limp so that it became a safety hazard to pull the trigger again. They don't make viagra for rifles, just guns.

In areas with lots of trees like where I live, I prefer 5.45x39mm for rifles as it is a long narrow fairly lightweight bullet that still penetrates wood and soft metals very well yet is still fairly cheap to stack deep. A 1080 round surplus tin is around 33 lbs, is fairly watertight prior to opening and can be opened with a Bussekin no problem. That caliber outperforms .223, .308, 7.62x39 and every pistol caliber I have tested for pine and fir penetration. 7.62x54r does the best out of everything I have tested, but it is a lot heavier ammo and rifle is required to shoot it. I suspect there may have been a lot of trees in Russia where/when these rounds were invented. 9mm ball penetrates the same wood the best out of 9,40,& 45.

357mag works very well as a pistol & carbine one caliber option out to about 125yds yet weighs a lot less than the 44mag option. I have a suspicion that if 357 had been around in the cowboy days where pistols and rifles shared ammo it would have been the most popular round.

22lr and 22mag are nice & lightweight, but for a survival round they are very susceptible to moisture turning them into duds which renders them very ineffective at the worst time. I enjoy them in good times and would use them as barter material when things go bad.

Nice Post AZMT.

I am wanting to run Federal HST or Speer Gold dot ammo, 124gr +P. NOBODY has any for a Price I am willing to pay. I've been checking out the Golden Sabre again and the ballistics on it are about par with the others.

Golden Saber GS9MMDD (Bonded) 124gr ammo

Caliber / WT(gr) / Bullet Style
9mm Luger / 124 gr. / Brass-Jacketed Hollow Point +P
Index IDI No. GSB9MMD

Velocity (ft/sec)
Muzzle 25 yds 50yds
1180 1131 1089

Energy (ft/lbs)
Muzzle 25 yds 50 yds
384 352 327

Mid-Range Trajectory
25 yds 50 yds
0.2 0.8

Here is a comparison from Remington for the 124 grain standard and +P ammo.

Comparison
Model Golden Saber HPJ Golden Saber HPJ
Order No. 29420 29424
Avg Wt Case 14 14
Barrel Length 4" 4"
Caliber 9mm Luger 9mm Luger (+P)
Energy 100 255 287
Energy 50 293 327
Energy Muzz 349 384
Index GS9MMB GS9MMD
Mid 100 4.0" 3.8"
Mid 50 1.0" 0.8"
Model Golden Saber HPJ Golden Saber HPJ
Primer Number 1.5 1.5
Vel 100 963 1021
Vel 50 1031 1089
Vel Muzzle 1125 1180
Wt 124 124

Just Popped a cap on 500 rounds of Federal's Zombie Preventative HST 124gr +P Medicine! Not bad for $230.00

I found a place (thanks to TOM) that I had forgot about. It pays to have low friends in high places. No wait, that didn't come out right. Well you know what I mean.

Well, my ammo of choice is still slated to be here on Tuesday.


I think this will work nicely in all my 9mms.

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/handgun/details.aspx?id=675

Got 10 of these 124 +P goodness yesterday!

Congratulations on a good score there! Those ought to punch some fancy holes in things not properly ventilated.

Yeah they come highly recommended. AND they came in at a price that beat what I had found Golden Sabers for!

They will be supplying my Beretta CX4 and Keltec PF9 and My Sig P225 and my Glock 17 and...

Just read a short blurb about this self defense ammo. Might prove valuable to do more research.

http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/ran...paign=20151003-allegiancepowerstrikeammo

Here's the manufacturers home page.
http://allegianceammunition.com/main_page.html

WOW, that PowerStrike ammo looks.....interesting.