Teaching an advanced SAR course soon and need a new FA scenario involving 2 subjects and up to 6 rescuers. No evac for 12 hrs. It will be of a WFR level.

Anyone think of a situation thats realistic that a SAR team would come across. I am flat out of scenarios. Need something new.

Anything?

Hound

How about a couple climbers take a fall, landing somewhere hard to reach, with various injuries of your choice?

Or how about?: a couple of people accidentally surprise a Mama and baby grizzly during a backpacking trip, and get mauled.

Or, a couple people go on a hike underprepared, and a nasty storm hits, and they can't expediently get out, and they get hypothermic and get some frostbite?

Or: a tree falls down on a couple in their tent.

Or, a couple people are hiking under a cliff during a small landslide, and sustain injuries from rockfall.

Or a car goes off the road and tumbles down into the ravine, with the passengers injured and trapped inside.

Let me know whether any of those will do, or if you need more.

Cheers, and keep up the good work.

hey evolute....ya got any ideas?..ha..ha..ha.

those are pretty good and realistic.

Those are good basic start points Evo. Some we have done before. I do like the tree on tent idea.

What we do is we come up with the basic idea then we complicate it as the scenario goes on.

Ie; Tommy is hurt and his energy level is low so the rescuers feed him but tommy didnt tell them he was diabetic now he goes into a coma etc...

Mary, is a little upset over tommy and runs away getting more lost then comes back and has a fit. She calms down then goes on a violent rage because she is actually a mental patient who failed to tell us she takes meds and hasn't been on them for 36 hrs. And oh ya she is 4 months pregnant.

At the end of a 12 hr scenario the rescuers need to get drunk and take meds themselves haha. Very realistic as many rescues do not go well for a million reasons.

Hound

Oh, okay:

1) One of the climbers gets loopy and belligerent from the high altitude.

2) The mama bear is still in the woods nearby, and still pissed off.

3) One of the frostbite victims started out already dehydrated, and has now become hypovolemic, and is now starting to go into hypovolemic shock.

4) One of the fallen tree's limbs is impaled through one member of the couple, right next to a major artery.

5) One of the rockslide victims gets a subdural hematoma.

6) The car driver went over the edge due to a grand mal epileptic seizure.

How's that?

To steal something from gray's anatomy, the couple was in the throes when the tree fell and the same limb is impaling them both of them at the same time.

Couple is camping and they take a lightning strike.

Couple is hiking, the husband get bit by a snake, the wife goes for help and gets lost.

Couple is hiking through the woods, finds an abandoned backpack. They open it, it is filled with rabid miniature Hyenas!
Mayham follows.

Call a coroner... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

How about a couple poachers are in far into the back country and one has an accident where his quad rolls over onto him and he cannot be moved. They would probably try to get out on their own before calling for help because of the poaching aspect and could also be in an area that is unusual for hikers etc.
Maybe the Cold Lake range or a remote chunk of crown land.

Kid is out camping/hiking/hunting
At some point decides to climb hydro tower
Option 1) Victim is electocuted and falls, on his way down he bangs off various pieces of metal. When he lands he lands on what?

Option 2) same as above but no electricity.

Possible injuries;
Electrical burns or other injuries
Fractures
Internal bleeding
Open wounds i.e. sucking chest, exposed internal organs such as intestines.

Twists
penetrating wound to underside of victim if rescuer doesn't do a proper exam.
Weather - cold, snow, freezing rain, hypothermia
penetrating wound such as impalement on large object that may require cutting
victim could be entangled in structure requiring lowering, if you can't do that option maybe you find him between trees, rocks ect that may require him to be taken out of. Similiar to a scenario where you use desks and chairs to simulate an auto accident

REAL TWIST
You find out he was in the tower because he was escaping graboids, NOW WHAT DO YOU DO

Incident involving heavy equipment such as a skidder
Unconsious or wounded victim that is located on a rock in a fast flowing river, rescuers have to remove victim without their assistance

I witnessed this one for real but it happened to a dog not a person.
Diver leaves speargun leaning against a log, victim jumps over log and impales themselve on the spear point.

Hunter walks up to dead deer, deer isn't quite dead and gores hunter with antlers.
Wounded deer could be dead or alive at time you get to scene, maybe antler still in victim.

Hunter walks up to 'dead deer', not only is deer not dead, but it is a weredeer.

a hunter last year died when unloading a dead deer and puntured an artery with the deer's antler.
My uncle once had a "dead "deer wake up and chase him around a try

Nasty I like it. The scenario is this weekend btw along with a massive mock search through hell and back before. We test most humans limits on this course. Snow rain and wind expected, evil instuctor grin <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hound

Well the scenario was this past weekend. It was the second half or a 36 hr course for advanced SAR candidates.

Weather: wind 50-60 MPH
Temp range 10 to -8 F
Snow 4 inches in 8 hrs.
Variable white out conditions due to high winds.

Terrain: Sea level to max 680 feet x 8 repetitions (rolling hills), Swamp, Hurricaine damaged areas, low scrub brush, marsh, dense boreal forest.

Distance: 12 miles

Density: Complete off trail bush travel.

Average pack weight: 45 lbs


The 7 students travelled 12 miles over nasty terrain with massive elevation changes. They navigated with a 1:50,000 topo to 8 points under an adhoc scenario via radio (they did not know their destinations).

After 12 hrs of searching they came upon 6 individuals. 5 in one area 1 200 yards down near a lake. 1 adult and 5 children. 2 children were deceased and the remaining adult and child were in late stage hypothermia. Injuries included a lacerated chest wall and fractured femur. After managing the 2 live patients for 4 hrs with no chance of helo evac the subjects died despite heroic efforts, bringing a total of 4 deceased.

After the subjects passed on a scream was heard down the lake and a 4th child 12yrs old was found to be in early stage hypothermia and had a massive knee injury. The child was evacd to the set up camp at midnight and managed unitl 7 am when a helo arrived on scene to hoist the subject and team out.

All and all a good scenario, the death of children is hard for responders to triage and some conflict evolved over leaving them and moving on to live subjects. Managing their own situation is always a challenge. 3 students ended up mildly hypothermic for real and were managed. We all made it through the nasty night on SAT and gained valuable experience in survival skills and what it takes to manage a live risky situation.

Thanks all for the ideas.

"So others may live"

Hound

My gosh do you guys ever have the hardest job in the world. If there was conflict over hypothetical dead kids imagine the stress involved in triage for real?

I spend a lot of time quading and other stuff in the bush so I would just like to thank you in advance for saving my fat butt.

I would love to learn more about the gear you SAR guys use?

wow. that sounds intense.

The decision to leave the dead children was beyond stressful as these kids were good actors. There is a medical term used in child and adult hypothermia cases that says "they are not dead until they are warm and dead" This term rose out of examples of young children returning from death hrs after their heart stops because their body temp plunged fast such as in super cold water or fridged exposure.

One medic took it litterally for this situation and failed to realize the triage concept under these conditions. He grew emotional over the kids and took it personally. He had to be coaxed and reasoned with to stop his actions over a period of time. He was using valuable resouces and labor that could have been put to use on the other patients. His heart was in the right place but his reasoning was impaired by fatique and mild hypothermia. It was a tense moment but it worked out.
At one point another medic (to his credit)went over to the deceased in front of the other medic and took all the insulative gear off the deceased kids to use on the live child.


Nothing motivates SAR people like children. You find that extra ounce of energy and willpower when it comes to kids even to the point of putting yourself well beyond capabilities and personal risk.

Lets hope we never have to deal with this for real.

It was highly emotional for me to watch him from an instructor in a ghosting observer position. My heart ached for him all the while wanting to kick his [censored] back to reality. When training on the edge like this the scenario seems real to many people as you are beyond tired in pain and your perception is distorted with a mix of exhaustion and adrenalin. Its a bizzar surreal experience.


What would you like to know about the gear? We carry too much. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> What else?

Hound

Hey hound. i've been looking at a local SAR group and thinking about joining. What pack do you use for carrying around your too much gear?

That is the kind of guy you would want if it was your kid but the guy who took
the clothes to use on the live kids was right but that would be a hard one to live with. I have heard about kids who were underwater in freezing conditions for 45 minutes and brought back to life.

question #2: what knife/knives do you take out with you?

Wow you are the real do or die deal, I have great respect for you and your and thows in said line of work. Thank you.

So you said...

So I ask, was this a Pass/fail test not just a practice and/or drill?

if a test how many of the seven passed?

Packs are much like boots there isnt one that fits all. Most of the guys use a 40-50 liter volume top loader that has extension collars for stuff extra bulk inside. Any larger and we run the risk of packing too much.

Many civilian packs are tough these days and they fit the bill without breaking the bank. I personally use a Canadian brand called Mountain Equipment co-op. Decent gear for a good price. The model I use is the Alpine 45.

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detai...D=1196738488243



My suggestion would be to try on many and add 30% to your expected load out volume. Fit is everything.

Hound

Yup, he was motivated no question. From a medical rescue perspective even if the kids did have a chance of coming back in a couple hrs they needed ACLS care and a hospital with rewarming facilites. Evac was 10 hrs away. Limbs were freezing solid after we arrived, they had been down we guessed 6 hrs before. Loooong gone. It just took him some time to realize it.

It wasnt just clothes the other medic took it was entire hypothermia wraps to use on the other subjects. Even they succumed as once your core temp goes you need a warm water body cavity flush in a matter of minutes or its over eventually.

A true learning experience.

Hound

There are 3 Rat heads on the team and one Hog. We are pushing the products and making headway when they see what they do.

There is a Battlerat
Ratweiler original (mine)
Camp Tramp (my buddy's)
A Steel heart of some vintage

A smattering of Beckers, Kbars, Ontarios etc... round out the favs

The blade philosphy varies a bit on the teams but generally you either carry a small fixed blade and a fold down saw or you carry a larger blade and a SAK type folder. Some will carry a machette and at times we will hump in a chain saw.

My personal loadout for SAR ops is my RW, a SAK Fireman, and a Fiskars saw.

If it cant be done with those it cant be done.

When others see the RW chew up wood in record time they tend to gravitate towards large blades. Especially if they attend my survival course.

Hound

It was a course so its pass fail. We started with 8 one had to be evacd due to injury out so he will not pass and have to wait a year to retry.

Out of the seven about 6 will pass at this point. I haven't tallied the info yet (too busy chatting wit y'all) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just to give you an idea of attrition. When someone walks through the doors we get 40-50 people who start training. Of the 50 at 1.5 years only 6-8 make it to my course. Out of my course only 2-3 will lead teams in the woods at year 2.5-3 from join date.

Team leader level is not for everyone and some stop at my course level and dont go any further, some stop at the course before mine and are comfortable with that.

It becomes an obsession for many <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />.

Hound

Phone them and attend a meeting. Not all SAR groups are hard core or even take it seriously. I hope yours is not like that. Either way its a worth while pursuit serving your community. You may even learn some stuff along the way.

Hound

Glad the course went well. Unsub posted some unusual items in another thread that included lockpicks and slim jims. It made me think about an upcoming potential survival situation.

What if you are stranded in a city? Chemical, nuclear, bio attack has shut down all of the major routes in and out and contaminated the water. Most of our kits focus on firestarting and shelters. Shelter may or may not be an issue, but concrete does not burn so well. I suspect you may have to deal with many hositles was well if you had anything of value.

All BOB and survial kits I have seen are focused on what we would do in the wilderness after fleeing the city. What if we can't leave or are sent in to rescue and are then stranded?

SAR
You are not located in North Van are you?

Nope Opposite end.;)

Hound

i do think about stuff like that. which is why i'm chomping at the bit for I am Legend.

cumbustibles would not be an issue, concrete doesn't burn but everything else does. in an urban scenario my biggest concern would be a weapon. Until my wife changes her mind i'm stuck with my zombie knives. I try to keep a running list of places in my head that in a worst case i could acquire a firearm from. These would include sporting good stores, pawn shops, police stations, national guard armories, cops houses, etc.