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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260915 01/30/09 07:14 PM
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Steel Fan Offline
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Quote
Nahh, lets keep the shooting talk going.

This is fun and good practice for dialing in dope.
http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemohi.html

Hi Mac, looks like you have had a good break with your Optician...if he is into long range shooting he should be into re-loading. The best way to learn is with someone showing you. If you want any help just PM me...I will send you my e-mail details by a private message.

Checking out the scope can be done with any square sheet of paper which you know the dimensions of...10 inch by 10 inch and the scope should track the width and height using 10 MOA at 100 yards...use bigger paper if the range is bigger...cut the paper accoring to the scope specs for windage and vertical...have a central dot which represents your 100 yard zero...after tracking around the paper bring it back to the middle 100 yard setting...to do so you need to count the clicks when moving out from the zero setting...so this is a slow steady job checking the whole range without target turrets to help...but it can be done. The rifle reticle should move around the paper edge if the rifle is kept still enough. When back at the setting it was at take a shot and see if the zero has returned...shoot either into the wind or with it at your back...a cross wind will move the POI...but a tail wind or head wind at 100 yards should be fine.

Of the three brands this guy stocks on scopes....they are all good but here are some pointers on the different models.

The S&B PMII scopes best feature for me is that the total windage available is done on a single rotation of the large windage dial. You don't have to do more than one revolution like you do on other scopes and therefore you should never get confused how much windage you have on your turrets. With other scopes you need to look at the white stadia lines below the turret to determine the number of revolutions used...just like the Mk IV windage turrets shown on the Mil Dot trainer you have posted a link to.

However the magnification power on their scopes...at least those with a Mil Dot reticle...tops out at 25X. They do have a new 50X scope but it does not have an illuminated reticle and uses a target reticle with thin lines and a single dot centre aim point. It also only comes in .25 MOA clicks. The 5-25 X 50 PMII comes with the illuminated reticle and a choice of .25 MOA clicks or 1cm at 100m clicks. If you want to use Mil Dot's for ranging the handy thing with the 1cm at 100m clicks is that there are 10 clicks at 100m between each mil dot if you go for the first focal plane version and if you go for the second focal plane reticle it is on the ranging power which I believe is 25X. This is too high a mag power to range on in sitting positions or kneeling due to wobble...and it is too high for low light conditions. Therefore on the S&B always go for the first focal plane versions so you can maximise your exit pupil ability at 7mm which on the 5-25 x 50 model is at 7-8 power on the scope. This makes the most of the scopes light gathering ability at low light and is a low enough power to range in free hand shooting positions without wobble.

These models though are VERY expensive...and VERY hard to find as they are committed to a lot of military orders...these are what we use now on the AI .338 LM. The handy thing with first focal plane scopes is that the mil dot is always a Mil at any power...but you need the "fine" reticle for the best performance at higher powers as thick reticles obscure your point of aim image.

You do have smaller power ranges on these scopes and they are cheaper but not by much and you will benefit from 25X when shooting at 100 yards as you can see your bullet holes when checking zero and when testing ammo as the scope can work like a spotting scope. If you are spending S&B money...try and get the best scope that lasts you for the rest of your life. I like the version I suggested but like I said....rare as hens teeth on the domestic market.

Zeiss do two scopes I like in their Victory Diavari range of scopes - the 6-24 x 56 and the 6-24 x 72. Both are available with Mil Dot reticles and both are illuminated. The only difference is the objective lens. I went for the 72 objective for low light gathering at dusk and dawn although both are excellent.
These scopes have second focal plane reticles only and range at a Mil at 12X which on the 72 objective gives you a very close 6mm exit pupil ratio to the optimum of 7mm ( to work out the exit pupil ratio you divide the objective lens diameter by the magnification ). You can range very well on 12X....it gives more precision than ranging at 7X or 8X but is still low enough to use freehand and not suffer wobble. Again when using a Mil Dot reticle I suggest using the metric clicks....most military ranging is now done in metres...your marines are using metric click scopes...as they work a lot easier with mil dots...these scopes are much better than the S&B 1 cm clicks as they click in 0.5cm clicks so you can subdivide the space between the mil dot to 20th's for ranging and clicking adjustment.

Plus at 1000m a 1cm click moves point of aim by 10cm's or 4 inches which for me is very "coarse" for competition shooting as the central "bull" is 5 inches and you need to be able to keep in this as best you can to win at international level...a 5cm/2inch click is much better for me as an option for using the scope in F Class but to be fair I find the power too low for 1000 yards and use other scopes....but at up to 400 yards I can see my bullet holes on a white background with the 72mm objective Zeiss as it is crystal clear and therefore I use this scope for my tactical comps where I have to "range" unknown distances and where I need a lot of medium range precision. It is a great scope but again is VERY expensive and not in my view...and the same can be said for a S&B...good value for money.

Then there are Night Forces....much better value for money but you need to consider carefully reticle choices and "click" choices. Starting on "clicks"...NF have brought out a 1cm click version but again I believe it is hard to get for civilian use as military contracts soak up availability. Therefore if you want a Mil Dot reticle you will be forced to range in mils and convert to MOA clicks...I have done this for years but you need a good head for maths. The distance between each Mil Dot is approx 3.6 MOA at the ranging power. On NF scopes this varies according to the scope power band. Personally though if you cannot get a scope with the mil radian turrets I would avoid the Mil Dot and MLR reticles on NF scopes....because they do some great reticles which enable you to range in MOA and in Yards. This is why I like these scopes so much!!

In Europe nearly all ranges are built and laid out in Metres and I have scopes in Mils and cm clicks for this and for our Military use. But in the USA and here in England most ranges are laid out in yards and it is much easier for me to think in yards and inches and MOA and the NF reticles available really make this very easy to either range unknown distances in yards or determine the windage or elevation changes in MOA. Plus nearly all the ballistic drop charts are done in yards although these days with the ability to use hand held electronic note books loaded with a good ballistics programme which can move between metric and imperial this last point does'nt matter so much. However I am now "old school" and think in yards and inches so the NF scopes work best for me in their other reticles. Given your age Mac you might prefer to start in Mils and Mil Radian clicks as if you go into the military this is what you will encounter. However whether you go for mil radian turrets and reticles or MOA turrets and reticles....for your .270 and for just about any other hunting weight rifle I really love the NF 3.5-15 X 50 NXS. The reasons I like this scope so much are ...

The 50mm objective enables a low mounting set of rings and bases and keeps your cheek weld nicely on the stock...you don't need an adjustable cheek piece...and for hunting rifles or light military sniper rifles the scope is the right size and balance to make the rifle feel right. If you lay the rifle down side ways the 50mm lens is not so wide that the objective is taking all the weight of the rifle and it is a robust scope for that reason. My 72mm Zeiss I have mounted with three rings....one extra one on the front...because the width of the objective makes the scope the central point of contact if the rifle is laid on it's side or if the rifle takes a sideways knock. It is a trade off but the optical light gathering of the 3.5-15 x 50 is excellent at 7X which maximises the light gathering for human exit pupil abilities at 7mm....if you dial the power down to 3.5 the field of view is excellent for scanning in deep woodland for deer....too high a power here and you cannot make out the background easily and find the deer you easily saw with your natural eyesight...it makes a fast target aquisition power for close up work which from a high seat/stand is often the case....and you can track and hit moving targets very easily on this power as well. At 15X you are able to use the scope perfectly adequately at long range albeit you might need a spotting scope for target competitions....but in the US a spotting scope is a necessity anyway for such comps because of the ability/need to read mirage. You don't want to keep zooming your rifle scope in and out for this....so as a combination you can do very well shooting at 15X with this scope. It also has 110MOA vertical adjustment which enables the scope to get your rifle "on" at ranges way beyond 1000 yards without the need for inclined scope rails...and it has 80MOA adjustment for windage....enough to click adjustment in any conditions at any range.

Use this with a NP-R2 or NP-R1 reticle and you can range easily in yards and MOA aim corrections are a doddle...it ranges on 15X which is a bit high for free hand steadiness but is still do able and gives great precision and if need be you can drop to 7X and then double the reticle spacing ( so 2MOA spaces are 4 MOA etc )....I like the R2 option because the lines on the reticle are slightly less frequent and "less busy" on the eye so you have a better target picture and for me easier calculations. Too many lines and you start to lose the plot when assessing a point of aim correction. Plus compared to the Zeiss and S&B it is much cheaper and really is just as good. The turrets have 10MOA available per complete turn and it is fairly easy to know exactly where you are on windage corrections....5MOA each way is quite a good range...you should hardly ever be turning more than one complete turn on windage. Plus the scope can be ordered with a zero stop which enables coming back to your 100 yard zero easy to do without needing to remember your zero setting. All told this is what I would buy if I wanted to put a scope on your .270 or RCS's 30-06...it works well on these type rifles. Check them out at www.NightforceOptics.com


JYD #75
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260916 01/31/09 02:42 AM
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Andy Wayne Offline
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I thought you guys might like these sites for free printable targets. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

MYTARGETS.COM Free Targets That Print In PDF Format

Targets Collection

Printable Rifle & Pistol Targets

If anyone knows of any other similar sites, please post them so I can add them to my collection. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Andy Wayne] #260917 01/31/09 09:52 AM
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Brilliant links Andy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> Thanks very much....some of those targets are totally new for me and look great fun! I like the dart board one and might role that one out for a Xmas fun shoot....C/F scoped and bi-pod, C/F open sights hunting in Big Game, and Combat Shotgun with Slugs...would make a great three gun combo shoot! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


JYD #75
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260918 02/01/09 01:34 AM
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thanks Wayne, good links!


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260919 02/01/09 03:46 AM
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Art Offline
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Great info, my head is still spinning from reading all that gun talk. Love it, keep it up. Btw, I used those sites to print some up and they work great, thanks Andy.


JYD #66 Endure to the End Long live the Brotherhood of the Yard
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Art] #260920 02/01/09 04:47 AM
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this thread really has shown some amazing intellect amongst the members of the Yard.


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260921 02/01/09 05:33 AM
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Andy Wayne Offline
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You're welcome guys. I've enjoyed using those myself. A lot easier if you run out of targets, don't have to go to the store to buy more. Also, if you want to be really cheap and don't mind the lack of color, you can print one "master copy" and bring it to the copy store and make a bunch of copies cheap. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Andy Wayne] #260922 02/02/09 11:37 PM
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Thanks for the free target sights Andy.
I have a surplus of paper because everytime I go to my local shop to buy something they always through in a free pack of targets.

SteelFan, thanks much mate for that above large post on optics.
I'm not going to rescope my .270 since I already have the Nikon on there and thats good enough for a hunting rifle and will do as I hone my skills within 300yds.
I'm gona keep shooting that rifle until I can afford my new set of kit at the end of summer.
I will probly buy a Nightforce for my next rifle since the more I look at them the more I like.
I didn't know the Marines switched to meters, I didn't think they would.
I do plan on enlisting in the army and I want to be as accurate as I can before hand.

So tell me about .375 Chey Tac.


JYD#49
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260923 02/03/09 04:54 AM
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reconseed Offline OP
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I am planing on getting the Leuopold VX-2 scope for my XCR pretty soon when I get some more money. I would have already bought it and had her on the xcr but i bought a brand new S6!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> so i will have to wait a few weeks and then get it! but when i get it and site her in, i will definitely throw some pictures on the internet for you guys!


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260924 02/03/09 01:33 PM
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tyger75 Offline
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Anyone on here a fan of the 22-250 caliber? Up here in Canada, it's very popular for one reason; it's the largest caliber you can legally use for hunting varmints year round (Depending upon the regs for your wildlife zone, of course!)
When I say varmints, I'm referring to anything from gophers up to wolves. Anything larger is considered a round used potentially for poaching deer and other wildlife out of season, so the 22-250 is very popular with those who hunt wolves, coyotes, foxes, etc. etc.

So, anyone else in the yard a lover of the 22-250?


JYD#70 Warning! There are more than just dogs in this yard!
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: tyger75] #260925 02/03/09 02:32 PM
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im not familiar with that caliber. in the united states, we use big calibers for big game. is this a smaller caliber? any pictures?


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: reconseed] #260926 02/03/09 02:47 PM
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tyger75 Offline
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the 22-250 is slightly smaller in diameter than the .223
[Linked Image from neconos.com]
Here is a lineup of some popular calibers to give you an idea of the size of the 22-250. #5 from the left is a .223, and #7 is a 22-250; notice the difference?
[Linked Image from varmintal.com]
17 Ackley Hornet -- 20 gr. Berger MEF Moly
17 Mach IV -- 20 gr. Berger Moly
17 Rem -- 25 gr. Hornady
22 K-Hornet -- 40 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip
223 Rem -- 33 gr. Hornady V-Max Moly
23/40 -- 40 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip Moly
22-250 Imp/40° -- 40 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip Moly
243 Win -- 95 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip Moly
243 Ackley Improved -- 60 gr. Sierra HP
7mm Rem Mag -- 150 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip


JYD#70 Warning! There are more than just dogs in this yard!
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