What knife for Womens self defense?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" /> I didn't get this all cut and pasted! so I will try and retype the beginning.

The other day I was stopped in the grocery store by the head butcher and his brother. They wanted to see my Emerson karambit. Seems they had been talking to the girls in the store about self defense (after that girl got kidnapped and raped out of a bar a couple weeks ago). They showed the girls how the knife came open right out of your pocket and they thought it was really neat, until I told them the price! Now we're talking about a bunch of folks that think 25-30 dollars is a very expensive knife.

Anyway, they then asked me to recommend some other knife brands. I then after telling them who made my Karambit, Emerson, I mentioned that Italian company named after the sly, and cunning red and white animal and also I think MAYBE S&W. I don't mind inexpensive knives, as long as they are not a POS! I think I also named a couple others but don't remember.

I also mentioned a fixed blade necker, the double agent I by CS. It is small, has a ring on each end of the handle (thereby MAYBE helping in blade retention). I also told the guys to just search self defense knives, on the internet.

I wanted to recommend a knife that would be easy to manipulate with gross motor skills (all us real knife fighters <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> know fine motor skills go out the window in a totally SHTF situation). Something simple that they could use to poke and scratch and scrape with if it ever became necessary

What would YOU guys recommend.

We are talking high school and college kids here, those NOT familiar with any aspect of self defense of any kind and in all probability will NOT seek out any training.

In our small community of 1,349 souls, this crime was a really big thing. Matter of fact, the city board was going to revoke their business and liquor license, but before the meeting was held the owner came in an relinquished them, in the hopes I am sure that when she applies for a license somewhere else they won't find out about the proposed pulling of the license and that specifically the state liquor board won't find out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

Well...the best weapon is the one you have with you (ie: not left at home).

That said...I prefer fixed blades, but most do not for EDC. Regarding motor skills, and grip...I sport the SS4.

I would probably recommend a good, easy use, folder of some sort. Maybe a Spyderco of some flavor?

They more or less specified a folder but with their infatuation with the karambit I listed makers of those kind of blades, and also because of the ring or rings for retention.

I DID tell them that any good quality blade would work, IF THEY HAD THE RIGHT MINDSET! But to make sure what ever they got, had a SAFE and RELIABLE lock and that provided SOME sort of a guard/finger groove between the handle and blade. These girls are not going to have the strongest grip in the world and I think would be well served by something to act at least as a semi guard.

Thanks for the input Ishi.

I recommend Kimber's Pepper Blaster II. I think an untrained person with a knife is likely to get that knife taken from them.

From the yard, I like the Weiner Dog, Muk and Ward Dog the most. The Weiner Dog is nasty fast and that will be gifted to my girl when she's older. For folders, my para 2 is nice...an endura wouldn't be bad for most folks...I have a nice double edged custom, but you have to figure it's illegal about everywhere...

45 acp

I all seriousness I don't recommend a knife for self defense in general. Before everyone gets up in arms I will explain.

The key to staying safe/safer is distance. If they aren't going to carry a gun the next best is pepper spray. You at least have 10-12 feet to spray and then move plus you can use it point blank. Then if they keep coming a knife might be handy since they(the bad guys)are no longer 100% combat effective. I carry one (a knife) at work as a last ditch. But it will be a unique situation if it comes to that.

The next issue is outdoors pepper spray can't always be used. You don't want to pepper spray yourself or someone with you by accident.

Being aware of your surroundings and situation goes along way in preventing any situation before it ever happens.

I agree with all of you, JJ, the pepper spray was my first recommendation, but they SAY they want a knife and I DO agree about it being taken away. HOPEFULLY they will forget about it or do some serious thinking about the pepper spray.

Rich, As I said these folks think that a 30 dollar knife is quite expensive. hopefully though they WILL go the pepper spray route or just drop it all together. I am about folks carrying a knife for self defense just like I am a gun. IF they don't think they can use it, DON'T CARRY IT cause it will in all probability be taken away and used against them.

You are most assuredly right on what you said MB. Situational awareness and distance. I also said to use the SING principle in what ever order they can, to kick, scratch, claw, bite knee ANYTHING that will allow them to get away(remember Miss. Congeniality), if at all possible and then run screaming at the tops of their voices.

Like I said, I hope this all goes away as I am afraid that if they do get a knife someone will get hurt, either themselves or an innocent person who they mistook for one of the bad guys.

And being mostly high school girls, it might fade into the background rather quickly.

I was thinking they would be older. At least 21 I was looking at the bar comment. Kids definately nothing more than pepper spray. Kids make poor choices.

Then there are issues with State laws. Not all states allow pepper spray and knife laws vary wildly.

There are a couple that are old enough to drink. The rest aren't. That is why I mentioned pepper spray and screaming, biting, kicking.... so much to them. They are just scared and mad. Vowing that they will not allow anything like that happen to them. You know how people are after a Bad occurrence of any kind, they are all gung ho for making sure they are prepared. And sometimes AT first, you cater to their wishes/demands and sneak in a more realistic alternative and give them a while to chew on that and hope they will see the light of reason.

If I remember correctly, Missouri allows for carry of pepper spray for protection.

Seld defense starts in the brain. It goes back to the old addage. If its predictable its preventable.

Thats one of the reasons I rarely drink much less drink to excess. I choose where I sit in reasturants and pay attention to my surroundings. I also look at every entrance an exit. I also watch people if someone is about to be stupid they usually broadcast it. I also trust my instinct. If someone just seems off they get greater scrutiny. Its ingrained from being on the job so long.

(10) "Gas gun", any gas ejection device, weapon, cartridge, container or contrivance other than a gas bomb that is designed or adapted for the purpose of ejecting any poison gas that will cause death or serious physical injury, but not any device that ejects a repellant or temporary incapacitating substance

It would appear as if pepper spray in Missouri IS legal for carry.

I don't know a lot about knife techniques, but the Kabar TDI intuitively seems like it would be easier to learn. Good price and shape is a bit more adaptable to concealment.

Oh and I was wrong about this guy earlier, he has been CONVICTED and sent to prison TWICE, and the third time the girl refused to prosecute although he did admit to it.

That is one specific knife I recommended to a Deputy as a "Boot Knife", something he is VERY adamant about getting. When he asked me why, I told him it could be used for stabbing, and slashing, once again the gross motor skills thing. just grab it in your fist and start punching. And I have tried to talk him out of a boot knife, saying one on the back side of his duty belt, accessible to either hand would be more preferable, and the TDI would work that way as well. I might mention that he wants this knife in addition to the folder he normally carries.

What's to know, you just grab it and start cutting! Unfortunately, this is the thinking for many people when they talk about blades for self defense. Is not just a grab, open, cut situation. Knives are in a whole different category (mentally) where self defense is concerned IF you TRULY consider what it means to actually use a knife in defense of yourself or someone else.

More pics of that Sgain Dubh please <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I have one on order with Koyote...but asked him to make it single edged so that it is legal for me here in Texas. Would hate to not be able to carry it!! It will undoubtedly challenge the SS4 in my conceal carry mode....we'll see who wins.

I guess a pocket knife could possibly be a good defense, but not just any pocket knife ...

Haha, I was going to say Opinel makes some pretty big knives but then I guess that's not what it is. I sure would hate to try and get that out of my pocket in a hurry.

Well dogs, I'm gonna try and get some sleep. If any of Y'all are up around midnight of after, I'll be talking to ya.

Take care and be careful. Zombies are everywhere and they don't all look like they do in the movies!

I like Spyderco Endurance and Delica also Benchmade Griptilian. The reason being that the companies make trainers that are exact replicas of those designs.

If they have access to some Martial Arts training that would be great as well. With the trainers they can practice deploying the blade thousands of times...its woth it.

MM

Just old photos..but something! This handle is the sweetness! I practice with this knife 3-4x a week. I've used a bit and it's pretty handy, I imagine the single edged version would be great (and legal! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

I like Kershaw with the speed safe. Not sure if you'd consider them a POS but I like em--fast and quick.

Or how about a Scrapivore? Swamp Warden might be an easier handle, but since those are out of production, might consider an Izula.

38 special. Revolver is a girls best freind

Every fighting style has a blade that is best. For a young lady the first line is to be aware of your surroundings. Then I would say a distance weapon/ disableing tool for the best way is to not let them touch you. Then a blade that you know how to handle!

Personally I don't recommend a knife for self defense, but if they have decided to go that route, have them check out cold Steel "spike" series

I am trying to dissuade them from a knife at all, just to many variables involved and I can almost 100 percent insure you that they will not get any kind of training. I am pushing real hard for pepper spray and screaming and yelling and running.

A year in a good BJJ school goes a looong way for self-defense training...

I like the looks of your Scottish Blade Rich. Nice little SD piece of steel.

It is nice and feels great in hand! Koyote's handles are sooooo comfortable!

The knife is tough too...plenty of strength at the tip.

I have one similar from Frank Vought(?) out of Hammond Louisiana I had made WAAAAAY back in about 1986 but it is a bit more spear shaped, the blade has a slight belly on each edge and it's about 1/16 inch thick.

THIS

tell them its much better to be able to blast them from 10ft...rather than a knife ...where you have to be close enough to touch

I Actually hope this whole thing goes away, because even with ONLY pepper spray I see the possibility of someone getting accidentally sprayed. BUT at the same time I hope they DO go with pepper Spray, because I believe EVERYONE should be able to protect themselves.

Oh and your comment about distance, that WAS mentioned in the first conversation.

We'll see who wins, youth and exuberance or Guile and cunning. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hey Rich, I just noticed that the knife appears made (handle wise) to be held in the sabre grip, with the edge down or in the reverse grip with the primary edge out.

I hope they go with pepper spray, because I believe everyone should get to experience that stuff - even if it is from their buddy's accidental discharge. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Been there, had the done to me THREE TIMES! It ain't pretty and it don't feel good, but If you had a sinus blockage before, you won't have after!

The last time that I spent much time researching an inexpensive/throw away self-defense knife, I recommended a Cold Steel Kobun -- they can be had for about $30 from Amazon. In addition to price, requirements were that it couldn't be a dagger or "Bowie" and it had to be concealable.

When I was in high school, I carried a comb that had come with a handle in my back pocket (it was the 70's, so that wasn't as uncommon as it would be now). I removed the handle and substituted an icepick. One day a guy tried to pull a pocketknife on me and I had the point under his chin before he'd opened his blade, so he put it away and moved along. An ice pick with a "sheath" like this: http://www.amazon.com/Harold-Stainless-Steel-Covered-Pick/dp/B0001V489W/ might be worth considering.

I say mace and distance until they Are ready for are ready for some serious selfdefence training.

So, can any of you guys recommend a way to start training? I sometimes worry about self defense myself. I think I have come to the conclusion that if I am under threat only for my material possesions at gun point per say. It would be smarter to hand them over.
Now, if my families life, or my own is being threatened, that I believe is the time to fight to the death if necessary. But how can one prepare for that? I have no training. I suppose some basic just some basic boxing or something similar would be best right?

Are you talking knife training or straight up self defense? For the knife, any of the filipino martial arts systems are nasty with a blade. Joe Blow with a knife is bad news...being trained with a blade is d-a-n-g-e-r-o-u-s!!

For general self defense, i say Brazilian Jiu Jitsu...some folks will disagree, but I think the mechanics are just brilliant and nothing gets you up and running faster.

Not necessarily knife fighting. I am considering just some boxing. Just to have some experience in hand to hand combat. There arn't many places around my house to train/learn/take lessons. Thats the problem.

Steeley, get a pistol, a CCW permit and take some pistol marksmanship classes. Some law enforcement agencies offer self defense classes as well. Many cover armed and unarmed defense. I recommend learning both.

As for martial arts ... unless you plan to spend a lot of continued time in a dojo, save your money for a gun instead. Taking a few lessons or even enough to move up the belt system a few colors is just enough to give you the confidence to get your butt in trouble.

I like Krav Maga. Its intuitive. But mindset is still where its at.

What about at your College? Check the Phys Ed dept.

I love Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, BUT its not everywhere yet and even in LA where its on every other corner the prices are still high.

Remember Brazilian Jiu Jitsu may have some "new" techniques but its 80-90% Judo with some wrestling techniques thrown in. So if you can get some Judo usually at the "y" or at least a Japanese Cultural Center its also usually cheap. Judo is usually about $30.00 per month while BJJ can be $125-$250 per month depending on the teacher and location.

But Check your school for Judo or wrestling. The conditioning is AMAZING!!

My favorite quotes for Grapplers:

"Nothing hits harder than cement"

"The ground never misses"

"When we fight we WILL go to the ground and I will be there waiting for you" Rigan Machado

MM
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

The problem with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (and some other ground fighting arts) is that they tend to focus one on one, which is great unless his buddies are kicking you in the head.

I remember being a white belt (Aiki Jiu Jitsu) and taking apart a 2nd degree black belt (there black belt was Gojuru Karate) while sparring quite easily. He had spent the last 10 years learning a martial art that was based on katas and no real physical contact, while I had spent the last 10 years mis-spending my youth.
Even among the same martial art there are differences between schools in what they specialize in.
Tournament Hapkido is much different then combat Hapkido asan example

For Blade stuff if you don't have access to A Filipino Martial Arts teacher I would recommend these DVD's

Martial Blade Concepts: A crash course Michael Janich

Knife Kem Ba Tivs by Kelly McCann

both can be found for about $30.00 each, and a LOT is on youtube.

Nothing beats a live teacher though

MM

Well BJJ and Judo both focus on live sparring or Randori.

As far as multiple opponents its gonna be hard for anyone or any style taking on multiples.

Most Judo/BJJers also take Muay Thai or Western Boxing as well...where they fight single opponents.

If I can throw someone on cement or do a Matrix move, I'll do a throw


MM

That is exactly my point a martial art verse "combat type training"
Many people that recommend BJJ, base this recommendation on watching MMA.
Many years ago I was attacked by 10 guys armed with knives and clubs.
Laying on my back in the guard position would have been fatal to me.

Knowing how to fight multiple opponents helped safe my life.

Our, Marines, martial arts program is a mix of Jiu Jitsu, kick boxing, boxing and many more disciplines. One of the elements introduced in the green belt curriculum is multiple opponents. Taking on two or more men is difficult to say the least.

You have to use angles to try and take one on at a time and keep your head on a swivel avoiding tunnel vision. That said, it usually comes down to "kill this guy before his buddy stabs me in the back so my comrades have less to fight when they get here."

We do a lot of knife fighting too. Even the knife sparring sessions I have won, I ended up with cuts (red lips stick marks from the rubber training knives cover in it) all over me. Very seldom, would I have walked away without needing serious medical attention.

Now, fighting an unarmed man or even an untrained knife wielding man while I have a knife, I think I could do a decent job of avoiding getting slashed too badly before sending him to bed.

No one who knows BJJ is going to pull guard in a street fight.. They are going to toss him on the ground and then (if needed) kick him in the head.
Also a few of the best things about BJJ are:
1) You practice NOT being taken to the ground by someone that knows how and is resisting your attempts to do the same.

2) if you fall you get right back up and you know how to quickly and efficiently AKA Stand-to-base.

3) You can practice all out if you want to learn leverage, timing etc.

MM
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I don't know if you are not understanding me or if I am not explaining myself.
BJJ is a martial art, just like many other martial arts, most of it's practioners do not train to "street fight or use it in combat"
Training for combat is specialized training.
When I was training it was primarily Aiki ju jitsu, muay tai for empty hand and arnis for weapons training.
I have trained with BJJ practioners and my youngest brother taught ground fighting at a local mma gym for a couple of years, so I do know how they train.

My only point is that combat training is not the same as combat training.

From my own personal experience you keep moving, get up asap if they knock you down, kick,punch,bite or claw anything in reach.
Take a hit to avoid a blade.
I did wind up in the emergency room, but aside from some scars no permanent damage.
However make no mistake if the cops did not arrive when they did I would have most likely have been killed.
Knowing how to fight just kept me alive until help arrived

I edited this quote to say what I think Yote was saying.

If my translation is correct, I have to agree with Yote.

I have done both regular MMA training and combat training. I never practiced jabbing my fingers into eye sockets, stomping skulls, biting, groin strikes or much of the other stuff people consider dirty fighting while at a civilian MMA gym.

Boxing is good stuff. You get movement, build power and get used to contact.

For me, it boils down to training with others who are actively resisting you/trying to bang on you. I spent years in kung-fu and Tae Kwon Do thinking I was pretty bad...things like boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, BJJ, judo, mma, wrestling let you know quickly and clearly how you are doing and where you are at in the pecking order. imo-ymmv

Bad guys run in packs so be ready to fight multiple guys. And you gotta know you are going to get hurt but it's all about damage control. The last one living is the victor.

Well...I'm fat and ugly...so I'll just go file my Form 4's for an M-16 and buy some Surefire 100 round mags. Handles multiple bad guys...Check!


EDIT: I've decided against the M-16. Takes waaaaay too long. I'm gonna get me a SCIZZY, and go train to be a NINJA...you know, at NINJA school. Yeah...I will wtfpwn multiple meanies in no time! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/paperbag.gif" alt="" />


EDIT 2: I'm really double thinking myself here. Can anyone recommend a good school that can teach me to run through the trees, ala Crouching Tiger / Hidden Dragon? Then, I can escapes multiple meanies quickly...and disappear without engagement.


EDIT 3: Crap...I just realized that the meanies might have gone to the same Crouching Tiger / Hidden Dragon school...then I am screwed! I'm back on the M-16 bandwagon.

You mean a S.E.R.E. (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape) school.
How much do you want to spend on training?

If you go to the Beverly Hills Ninja school, you can vanquish multiple adversaries while wearing your White Ninja suit and not even break a sweat. Hey, if Chris Farley can do it ANYONE can! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I can haz ninja starz too? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

You Betcha ishi! I mean look at all the stuff he pulled out of his Gi in the room! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Only thing I DON'T remember was a self defense folder. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ish, i do believe your best bet is to find a Jedi Master and begin your training ASAP. Focus on the Jedi Mind Trick.

"We are not the droids you want to rob."

I knew it! As soon as I learn how to be a Ninja, I will confront a Jedi who will use the FORCE to rid me of my SCIZZY.



Although...maybe I shouldn't worry about it so much, since we do live in the MATRIX. What I'm saying is...when I'm ready, I won't have to <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Man! If wouldn´t know better I could think you guys are having a same kind of "Sip and Talk" as I am and your clock would also be 0.30am!

You been sippin a bit much? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Well, I just finshed my second can of beer. That´s not much but I first ended a bottle of sparkling wine... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/loopy.gif" alt="" />

Have you been lurking in the Matrix? Why can´t I see you online?

Now you all are getting silly...don't make me break out my dim mak death touch...or my pressure point system...you don't want that...nobody does

When I was testing for my greenbelt, the instructor was calling out the names of moves I had to perform on a buddy who was acting as the "meat puppet." After a few throws and strikes, the instructor said "perform a forward Hadouken." I paused for a second, lost in my ignorance. Then it came to me. I performed it flawlessly, yet the fireball never came out. Luckily the instructor overlooked my lack of control of mystic fire.

A properly performed Hadouken:

I had mystic fire once,but it didn't come out my hands! Singed my pants too!

lol!

This really went down hill

Whenever i say "hoboken" it comes out "Hob-ooOOoo-ken."

If by "downhill" you mean totally awesome ... then, yes, you are correct.

Here is properly performed edged defensive move you can teach the ladies.

This stuff would work as well (watch all the way to the end)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WNz06IL9wg <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

The knife should probably revolve around the level of training and what you can carry. Training is the biggest thing and includes not only how to use a weapon but how to talk or how to remove yourself from the situation without action and of course how to avoid it in the first place. A knife is considered a lethel weapon. In missouri at least when i lived there a few years back folders were limited to 4" and no fixed blades concealed, If you have a permit there is no restriction on folder blade length and (open for interpretation) you can carry fixed blades concealed. Some areas are better than others about fixed blades.

Kevin Jamison published a very good book on Missouri's weapons laws, if your going to carry concealed you need to read it. Personally stay with a general purpose folder along the lines of spyderco Endura or fixed blade about the same size. The Endura can be used for day to day stuff as well bumps in the night and won't raise much attention. And remember always be the "defender" always........

Ohhh and of course dont talk to the police "Lawyer first"

well, since we've moved away from knives and into self defense, I'd say go with what moves you, find a good school, and develop the proper mindset. I did Taekwondo for years. Lucky enough to have been in a community program that wasn't one of the black belt factories out there today. We trained in forms and full contact sparring, but also in practical self defense, throws/grappling, knife defense, etc. We'd have periodic exchanges with a judo club and seminars from shaolin experts, eskrima kali instructors, and basically whatever else we could learn. I just love being able to spin around and kick a person's head off, but that's just me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

At the end of the day, the best defense is throwing your wallet and running as fast as you can but being confident in your ability to crush the guy's skull if he decides he wants more than the $20 and the Burger King receipt in your pocket.

Yeah, it kinda makes you wonder if they're fully aware of what they're getting themselves into with getting a knife for self defense. I also wonder if the reason they want a folder is mainly because folders are cooler than fixed blades.

That being said: Spyderco Swick! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For the most part they are teenage girls. Tight jeans, tight shirts, easier for them to stick a folder in their pocket. I Still hope they go with the Pepper spray. I fully believe they are just on a scare from the kidnapping and rape we had from that bar, that is now by the way, no longer in business.

Skunk, just teach them the Vulcan nerve pinch. It even comes in handy if they find themselves up against a great white.