Numbers and Letters, My Friends...

...Numbers and Letters...tons and tons of numbers and letters.


I torched my back, blew out my spleen, and can now do full splits, only dogs and cats can hear me speak but it's all mine my friends...all mine...and soon to be yours

Now I need to see doctor Jack about my back. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Dan

Oooh.... So confusing, so temping... What type of steel did you score? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Not like Busse only had one steel with an alpha numeric designator. SR-77, SR-101, A2....

Jack will make all things well again! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I like the sounds of this. Except the body damage that is.

That would be letters and numbers

Dan

Right on, Jeeps! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

good stuff, can't wait!

Hope the back gets better Dan!

440C? 154CM?

Vic - whatever it is, I'm sure it will be good! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

CPM-15V?

What I said in my previous post! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

See, you need to learn from this and next time pick up some Dog volunteers along the way on your route to help you carry and load steel! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

It would be radical if Dan got some sort of high grade stainless, wouldn't it?

Intriguing. Letters and numbers, numbers and letters. And tons and tons of it.

I give up. JUST BRING IT DAN! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Bring it - PLEASE !!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm thinking D2 or SR101....for a small edc !

No Pitman! It has to be 2D or 101SR! New uber EDC steels! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I am ready for whatever it be.

well done cold one you are on top of things

can't take the pressure!!!

Oh my <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

The last time Boss Hog was shocked We got the amazing Dumpster Mutt! You found the handles and blew us away with the toughest-little SR-77 this side of the moon! Whatcha cookin now BossDawg? Big stirrer, little stirrer?!

WOW. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This should be "VERY INTERESTING"....but shiney. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

WOW. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Peace.





ATS-34,D-2???? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

but what about the next next offering?

trying to play jedi mind tricks with myself. if i only think about the next next, then maybe the anticipation for the impending release won't seem so bad.

What ever it is, I can't wait!!! BRING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Two weeks. Right?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

is it really two weeks? i thought we were atleast within a week.

Running joke! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am confused.

Well..... he didn't really imply that "numbers and letters" was next - he just said "soon". So, DFLE could still be an option next (????).

But, the "numbers and letters" thing is getting to me.

If Dan is so specific that numbers comes before letters, he is probably also specifice about plural numbers and plural letters per steel designation (????) - or he could be implying plural as multiple pieces of steel with this numbers and letter designation (????).

This is confusing. There are not many steels with a number then letter designation and none that I remember Busse ever having used - except S30V for the Rat Trap and that is "letter, numbers, letter" and I am pretty confident there isn't a S30V folder coming from Scrap Yard any time soon - if ever (????).

All I can come up with are:

420 series
440A, 440B, 440C
154CM
12C27
50100-B
440V (aka S60V)
420V (aka S90V)
10V
3V

3V seems like a type of steel that Busse would tinker with. Very tough. Not INFI or SR77 tough, but very tough and arguably a VERY good knife still - probably better knife steel than A2 or D2 (????) But, I think 3V is expensive.

Dumpster Diggin' Dan must have scored something good - he seems pretty proud(????)


???????????????????????????

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you would have to think whatever he found would be too late to use for this release. unless it would be some type of vintage sheath for the dogfather le?

who knows.

I'm sure it all makes sense to Dan. Maybe after we see what is coming up all the cryptic hints will make perfect sense and we will feel foolish not for understanding it in the first place.

Maybe he's a code writer for the NSA on his off time.

well he definately has beautiful knives.

A steel that has been used by Busse but not for quite a while and with an alphanumeric designation? = ATS34
Either Dan really did hurt his back or that is another hint.
Full splits= folder.

A Scrapyard folder of ATS34

hmmmm. a folder. interesting. i like it. go with it. tell me more. how does that make you feel?

You can't have one, Unsub. You need a miniature fixed blade, remember? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I believe Dan corrected somebody else above similar to your suggestion of ATS34 by saying: "That would be letters and numbers".

The implication is that the steel is NOT letters and numbers, but it is Numbers and letters.

So, not alpha-numeric: Not ATS34, and not SR-77, SR-101, A2.... etc.


But, numeric-alpha

Possibly:

420 series
440A, 440B, 440C
154CM
12C27
50100-B
440V (aka S60V)
420V (aka S90V)
10V
3V

----------


Interesting thought to tie "Full splits" to folder.... Maybe, but I just somehow doubt it (?????).




- could Jack imply Jack knife? - anothe "possible" hint to folder (????)



In any event, I don't think it is ATS34.

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If its a folder Im just going to die right now and go to heaven.

I would love a folder because I use those every day. I have several favorites that I rotate. A big bad SYKCO folder would be awesome. IMO, more people would actually use a folder than some neck knife or such. Folders are just plain handy. There is a lot of precision work that goes into one.

I don't know about that bld. Have you checked out Jerry's knife patent? Looks sweet! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wonder if Dan made off with the patent paperwork!

A folder would be nice. Yes, it would be very nice.

Folder patent:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=w952AAAAEBAJ&dq=7,032,315

Enjoy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Great read thanks Cold One.

Stop being a tease Dan and bring it. I have more money to give you! And I have a sneaking suspicion so do others, but thats only a guess!

All I know is that I'm desperately in need of a new knife. This waiting around crap is for the birds <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Or Jack Daniels... I think he is drinking again.

The Dumpster Mutt Jr. folder. I can't wait.

I have to admit a folder would be cool. I am not willing to read that much into the Dan's post though.

Doesn't sound like the dumster had any INFI in it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" />

In dan's fuzzy posts he also said something about 'Seeing Dr. Jack about his Back' Could this be in reference to a Satin Jack or Desert Jack style or sized blade? The satin also fits our Moody Blues 'white nights" or Knights in White Satin hint. Still all very elusive, Buit this is my $0.02.

Satin Jack specs and Pics off Bad-mojo

http://homepage.mac.com/zombiekiller/badmojo/sj.html

That's a nice designed knife !!!!!


When will the bowl be dropped

The torture!!!

it's almost inhumane.

please please give us something.

wow that is neat I would love a SYKC folder and thoes plans look great inovative ideas.

------------------

Interesting possibility.

I actually prefer the Satin Jack Tac - SJTAC


The SJTAC is the larger one in the middle:







I like the blade shape and I liked the convex grind a lot (although the CNC grind lines were a mega-bear to grind out on my CG. - For me, I would pony up for an LE - Please!).

However, the thumb ramp (on the spine - back) was a little off for me. And the handle in general - Needs a little adjustment - it needs "Doctored" up a bit.

? - Maybe "Jack" is the CNC programmer / machinist?

Also, the scales were too thin on the SJTAC, but that is probably another story and since the handles would probably be Res-C with Scrap Yard, it is not a relavent issue.

I have never actually had a non-TAC Satin Jack. However, I do have a Desert Jack from Swamp Rat that has a similar shape. I like it, but I prefer the SJTAC - especially if "Doctored" up a bit.

I would love to see another release with the SJTAC blade, but tweaked. However, the blade is very similar in size to the S6, so (????).


I would also still LOVE to see Dan make this!!!:




(* My photo-editing still needs some tweaking at the choil area, but I don't have editing software with my new computer, so that was as far as I got. Just imagine the choil being improved. - I would bring the blade edge a little closer to the handle to make the choil just big enough for finger size. I don't care for wasting too much blade with overly large choils. But, I also feel that some of the tang/guards on current knives are larger than I would prefer. The actual size of the choils on most of the larger knives is fine, it is just the distance of the choil from the handle that bugs me. The large tang/guard makes the finger seperation between index and middle finger too wide when choked up into the choil and I would rather have an extra .25" of blade edge. All of the Res-C larger blades are like this - Battle Rat, Camp Tramp, Yard Guard, S6. I would prefer to see the choils up and in towards the Res-C about .25" closer to the handle.)

.

The Satin Jack Tac reminds me of my Badger Attack, only a bit longer. Good looking blade.

That would do for me I missed the mutt but would love to have his pup

I am pretty sure the Satin Jack Tac and the Badger Attack are pretty much the same except for blade length.

.

A SYKC folder would be awesome! Especially with INFI steel!!!

A folder sounds like a long enough shot to me. But, there are many indications that whatever it is - it won't be INFI.

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I know, its just wishful thinking!

I am actually very particular about my folders. So, I have a hard time getting excited about a folder until I see what it might have to offer.

INFI, SR77, SR101, or whatever - all great for various reasons, but there are many little details about a folder that to me are more relevant than toughness of steel.

And I personally, "STRONGLY" prefer stainless in a folder over non-stainless.

I don't need to have a folder made out of "nuclear" tough steel when "reasonably" tough and corrossion resistance are current options. My folders get sweated on and lots of humidity. And if I intend EDC, then I personally want relatively low maintenance.

To me, there are PLENTY of great stainless steel options that make great blades for a folder.
The design of a folder is WAY more important to me than nuclear toughness... * when "reasonably" tough and corrossion resistent is an option.

Not that I wouldn't possibly buy an INFI or SR77 folder, but there are lots of little details in a folder design that are relevant to me.

Generally speaking, a fixed bladed knife is way more simple in design than a folder. There are many more individual pieces and much more detail involved in a folder. I don't see that Dan or Jerry have too much interest in the hassles of making a folder. Unless they just want to.

I think most of us take for granted the details and extra effort involved in making a folder that is good by today standards. You have to sell many thousands to justify the effort. Or you have to do some partnering and sharing of parts, tooling and or design. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

.... or you sell $350 - $400 folders like Chris Reeve or similar.

The Sebenza and certain other folders may be awesome, but I am not too interested in paying $300 - $400 for folders.


I hate to spoil the party and I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt Scrap Yard has a folder coming any time soon (.... if ever ?).


.

sadly I agree

If you're talking about the new Badger attack I would say no, the blades are not alike but the handles are alike, both being TAC handles. The shape of the SJTAC handle is just slightly different (a tiny bit narrower) in back of the choil but they are very, very close otherwise.

The SJTAC blade isn't as wide and it balances a little differently because of the longer blade. I don't own a HOSJTACLE, just the standard CG SJTAC btw. I prefer the blade length of the SJTAC over the BATAC but both are great knives that you couldn't go wrong with. I think I would prefer magnum slabs on the SJTAC.

ME TOO .... Definately, but otherwise an awesome knife.

.

First time I have seen a satin jack tac. Very, very nice.

wow that shsj is a sweet knife.

definately have to keep my eyes open for one of those.

If I were asked which Satin Jack is a better fighting knife, I would likely agree - I feel the slimmer SJ is a better fighting knife. The slimmer SJ is a little quicker, more nimble and more suited for stabbing (if that is your thing).

The Satin Jack Tac however, has an awesome blade shape for field use and I definately feel the SJTAC is better suited for field use than the slimmer SJ. Too me, the SJTAC is a very versatile blade. I am not generally a person who believes one knives can do it all, but the SJTAC is in my opinion about the closest I have seen. - ..... Why I couldn't let it go!
The "TAC" handle designation implies the SJTAC is largely a fighter, but I would argue it is a better field knife first with a secondary use as a fighter. A handle doesn't do much to make a knife a fighter on it's own. And as I have mentioned, there are some tweeks I would (will) make to the handle. I don't have an older SJ, but from what I can see and comparing it to my Desert Jack, I would prefer a taller handle.
For a fighter, the slim handle is fine, but for field use the slim handle doesn't fit quite right to me. I don't feel the grip is as solid as I prefer. The slimmer handle wants to roll around too much.

I don't really have much use for a fighter..... But, I still have quite a few in my collection <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Generally, my criteria for a knife (whether I use it or collect it) is based on if I consider the knife a knife that I could use, would like to use and if the knife is really good at what I want to use a knife for.

I like the slimmer Satin Jack, but I have many knives that I consider more usable for my preferences. I personally prefer the SJTAC.
I like the blade shape on the SJTAC a lot. It is actually one of my favorite blade shapes for a knife with about a 6" - 7" blade. The SJTAC's blade is 6.375".
I like the convex grind on the SJTAC - A WHOLE lot!
The handle on the SJTAC is just O.K., but I can make it pretty good. I don't think I can make it great, but it will be good enough.
The top two reasons are why I kept this SJTAC. I haven't had much luck justifying buying Busse's. I have purchase about 6 or so, but I only have 2 (my other is an AD - I like my AD, but it is sure expensive for a 3.5" blade!!! - we'll see if I keep it????).


* For the record, the pictures I posted are not my knives. I just tend to save many pictures to my files when I come across good pictures. I have an old cheap camera and I am not very good at taking pictures. So, when I want to post a picture, I feel forum members would rather see nice pictures of given knives even if they are not mine vs. crappy pictures of my knives.


But, if you must see mine.... here is a crappy pick of mine (from a few months ago). I originally purchased two. I sold the top one because I couldn't and can't justify keeping the knives at that price and value - (Except in the case of the SJTAC, I will probably keep it for sure.).
I kept the stripped one:



I still have some grinding and polishing to do to finish my SJTAC the way I want it. I will get it done some day.
The convex shape obviously was done with a CNC machine (I don't own an AK, but I am pretty sure the AK was convexed with CNC as well).
The CNC marks on the convex are VERY tough to sand out. I started this project months ago and I just haven't had a chance to get back to finishing up some of my blades. (....many more waiting to be made Satin happy!)

I "might" have justified paying for the SJTACLE had I known the CG was going to be such a mess to fix under the coating, but I missed the window of opportunity and the LE versions of INFI tend to be WAY more than CG.

The good thing about stripping it yourself is you save money. In the case of the SJTAC vs. the SJTACLE, I think it was over $100 difference. WAY too much to justify the price increase (too me).

I will generally be happy to pay an extra $30 - $40 depending on size though.
Because some knives can be a bear to get looking nice. Some are quite easy. You never know which ones are going to be nice or rough under the coatings. - unfortunately, the SJTAC was pretty rough. (* I wish they would make them at least consistently "decent" under the coatings!)

The other good thing about stripping a knife yourself is you are less concerned about using it and more prone to using it. Once you strip the knife and sand/polish it, you can recreate the same finish if you want after you use it.

.

I like this <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Me too! I could use a set of 8 or so. They are nice enough to set out as steak knives at any table. A lot more functional as well.

A Dog Whistle? Maybe whistle zipper pulls made of 440C?

----------------

I can appreciate wanting a dedicated fighting knife. I have a few. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
There is just something special about many of the fighter designs.
The great thing about the SJ is: as much is it is a fighting knife, it can still be used for many other tasks.
There are many different styles that could arguably be called great fighting knives even with significantly different shapes and styles. As you mentioned, many hunting knives would be great fighting knives.

To me, I would just assume NEVER be in a mano e mano knife fight. I would consider this a loose/loose situation. I have seen an extraordinary amount of damage that can be caused by just a box cutter. Any sharp little blade in proper hands can quickly do more damage than most pistol calibers.

I am no expert in knife fighting. What I like in a fighting knife is mostly aesthetics. However, from my non-skilled knife fighting perspective, it seems that a good fighting knife is like any other knife to be used:.... depends on the situation.

I will say that I don't personally believe a real knife fight includes much blade on blade action. The Steven Seagal and Jet Li crap in the movies may be entertaining, but highly improbable - even if both knife fighters were professionals. I believe two people going at each other with knives or swords will be done very quickly - one way or another.

- I could see where a small 4" - 4.5" blade would be great for tight, controlled quick slice and get out. MANY knives could do this very well. The SS4 jumps to mind for starters.

- I could see where a Gerber Mark I or Fairbairn Sykes dagger would be good for stabbing.

- I could see where a long Tanto or short Wakizashi would be great for quick, nimble and strong slashing.
(I like the Cold Steel - Magnum Tanto XII - San Mai, The Extrema Ratio T2000M, or the Bark River Golok)

- Or just use a Katana or similar big sword and just get it over with.


Again, I won't claim to be a professional. I know there are many people who have designed highly regarded fighting knifes who are theoretically much more knowledgeable than me about knife fighting. However, it seems to me that a good sharp knife making long slashing cuts in vital areas would be much more effective than stabbing (unless a direct stab to the brain or heart could be achieved and guaranteed). It seems to me, the problem with stabbing could be a potential lack of follow up attempts (????). Knives such as the Fairbairn Sykes dagger and the Mark I are ideal for stabbing, but I am convinced there are MANY better designed for slashing and slice cutting.


Some knives are just naturally very secure in the hand, but many knives and many fighting style knives in particuler seem to me would be very well served with a lanyard looped around the thumb and behind the back of the hand. I don't practice or pretend much with the knife fighting concept, but I do like a lanyard on certain knives.

Some of my favorite fighting knives:

Al Mar - SERE Operator
Bark River - Slither
Benchmade - Nimravus
Blackjack - Tracker
Branton / Brend - Model #2
Byron Knives - Elishewitz - Lightning Strike
Camillus - CUDA - Terzuola - CQB1
Cold Steel - Black Bear Classic
Chris Reeve / Harsey - Neil Roberts
Gerber - Yari
Greco - Companion
Greco - MST
Junglee - Hattori Fighter (& Baby Hattori)
Jungle - Yakuza
Pacific Cutlery - Timba
SOG - X-42 Recondo
SOG - Field knife (under appreciated knife!)
SOG - Team Leader (New - looks nice ???)
Spyderco - Perrin
Spyderco - Temperance

Various customs including Steve Voorhis - Loveless style sub-hilts and others.

Obviously, there are many more great fighting knife designs, I just don't have them all yet <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

* Unfortunately, none of the above are made from INFI, SR77 or SR101, but most are made from pretty decent steels.

*** ALL of the above knives would (IMO) be well served with a lanyard. I would guess a properly used lanyard increases the secureness of the grip on many knives by 2 - 5 times!


I know there is a lot of different knife fighting techniques, training, and various grips.... whatever.... again, I am not a knife fighting expert and I don't really care to be, but I am pretty sure I would want my knife to stay very securely in my hand.

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.... Oh yeah, and for a fighting knife, I think the Swamp Rat - Desert Jack is very nice! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />




.

A comment told to me by a defense teacher:

Everyone bleeds in a knife fight, he who bleeds the least wins.

That's a good saying! I like that... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

That works for a lot of things.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

The other quote I was given by an instructer with regards to a knife fight was winners drip and loosers gush.

the one i heard was after a knife fight between two trained fighters, one goes to the hospital, the other to the morgue.

...or both go to the morgue <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Alex

Winners drip ..... losers bleed.....

Well said Bruce - I totally agree with you!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Tom

Since my big belly is an easy taget and I am not as quick as I used to be, if I knew I would be in a knife fight and could not take a gun, I'd take my 22" Collins machete. I am pretty good with it. A knife is a weapon of last resort.

Woo-hoo! Hairy Carry ordered, bring it on Dan!! 154CM and res-C does it for me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" />

lol
still dreaming of that 154cm scrapper7 paul???
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I knew it!

I always suspected it was 154cm because Camillus introduced it into several of their knife lines before they closed.
Knowing camillus's pack rattyness they probly bought enough 154cm to build knives for several years.

+1 on the 154CM and ResC!

Bring It! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Oh yea...Hairy Carry ordered here too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

154CM res-C Scrapper 7?

"HELL YEAH!!" Bring it Dan! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

It feels like Christmas Eve! Eric is Santa!

Between Knob and the Hairy Carry, them Rats are emptying my pockets fast. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I saw the pics of your new additions in the swamp Jeff, nice!

Sorry to vote against you Paul.

I like stainless for folders and smaller knives. I consider 154CM more than fine for the Hairy Carry. But, for a 7" blade or Scrapper 7 or Scrapper 7.5 or Scrapper 8 or whatever, I have to vote for SR-77 or SR-101 easily over 154CM.

...... Just make mine satin. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

There was a time not long ago, I would have disagreed. But after seeing Noss break a Chris Reeve GB in S30V, and then seeing what the S6 took, I must agree. S30V is not that different from 154CM is it? Make the bigger knives SR101 or SR77 or INFI. Unless......Jerry has a secret heat treat that makes 154CM super tough.

Yeah..... I am actually good with many types of stainless knives up to about 5" - 6" blade and mainly depending on design. Some designs are less prone to be used for extreme abuse.

An S7 or similar is going to be much like a Camp Tramp and begs for beatings.

I have to vote SR-77 or SR-101 for a knife that begs for beatings.

Knives for most other types of cuttig tasks "can" be many different types of steel - depending on many variables.

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well vic, strider lasted alot longer than the green beret and did pretty well, and it was s30v.
(idk if s30v and 154cm are that different, but I do think s30v may be "better" generally, I'm not sure though)

just shows how much the heat treat can affect a knife.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I have no doubt this knife would be tough enough for just about any every day use.

I'd take a S7 any way it came.. sr77 is great on my S6.

lol I honestly would not want the s7 to be in 154cm either.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I'll take it in sr77!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

+1 for me too ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm not a fan of 154cm on fixed blades, in fact, I'm not too pleased about the latest SR release. The design seems to be great, but I just don't think that a hard use company should use a steel like 154cm-- which is geared for pampered knives like folders. Not to upset anyone, but I REALLY don't want the yard to start using it-- a steel with so little toughness kinda goes against their mission statement.

Dude, What are you talking about? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Remember the D2 knives from Swamp Rat? They were tough as hell and were given quite a beating and survived. They dented rather than chipped and because they were still D2 they had really good edge retention. SRKW 154cm's heat treat shouldn't be any different.

Remember that D2 has much worse toughness than 154cm. If I had a choice for a large chopper with D2 or 154cm I would go 154cm.

Also, Mercworx use 154cm on most of their knives. They're heat treated softer for toughness and can also take quite a beating with little chipping (though for their price I think an FFBM would be beyond par).

I agree with you in that I'm not a fan of 154cm but when something comes from the Swamp, Yard, or Pit, it must be good.

I must admit and much to my disgust.........I ordered 2 of the cute little buggers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Ordered Harry Carry. Bring on a sub 5 incher with Res C!

Hey 454 - good to hear from you again! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> Are you going to make it to Blade again ?

I ordered one too. Kinda cute in a homely sort of way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think its a beautiful knife but I'm still on the fence here, especially with the SAR4 right around the corner... I wish they'd throw out some info on the heat treat or show some good brutal abuse pics. I'll probably get one anyway. My mail is down for the moment anyway so I'm conveniently forced to think about it.

first of all, don't swear at me

You're right that heat treatment will make a difference, but you also should remember that the knives that failed us in the field have all been 154cm. This sort of experience is not something that inspires confidence.

In respect to mercworx, very little testing has been on those knives to determine whether or not they can put their money where their mouth is. To me, they seem to be a more tastefully designed version of Dark Ops Knives, minus the terrible advertising. Just because they're expensive, doesn't mean they're worth the money.

My main argument with 154cm in SR knives is that I believe that the switch to stainless is unnecessary and sacrifices too much. I personally believe the difference between coated and uncoated blades in terms of efficiency is negligible, so there is little need for a satin-finished steel. Furthermore, seeing as the banner of SR's website reads "Ambassadors of American spirit and toughness", I don't think they should drop an extremely tough AND edge-holding steel from production in favor of a steel thats only real advantage is its stainlessness.

If they can prove that a H. Carry is just as tough as the nearly identical HRLM, I'll be happy to accept it. Until then, I will continue to view 154cm as a folder steel, not suited for hard use.

Thats basically how I feel about it, but I'll probably get one anyway. It will be at least as nice as all the other fixed blades out there in 154cm. You don't see a lot of them anymore, but maybe 10 years ago 154cm and ATS-34 were pretty popular for blades even up in the 13" range. I'm sure they've figured out how to get a little extra out of it or they wouldn't be risking their reputation.

I really do like the design. I can't wait to see a few people put some heat on it and see what they can really take.

WTF aside, I'm kind of with Sharp on this one- having seen Eric's D2 torture pics!

Aside from the fair and somewhat reasonable discussions/debate about the uses of 154CM (and aside from the comment: "the difference between coated and uncoated blades in terms of efficiency is negligible" ),.......

I have to recommend that "ALL" stop using the "WTF" (stated this once for reference) or similar terms that don't really hide use of inappropriate language.

Abbreviation or not, it is understood as inappropriate language.

I KNOW the owners of this forum and the moderators have made it clear about use of inappropriate language. Abbreviating doesn't make it acceptable. I recommend this abbreviation NOT be used and care should be given in similar uses of language.
I know this abbreviation might be common on some forums, but I don't believe it is acceptable here.

I am not trying to be a nanny here. But, I am trying to help keep things clean around here and keep everyone out of trouble. I would rather give fair warning and it come from me than from a moderator who feels obligated to give a "serious" warning and possibly take action.
And don't be mad at a moderator for doing their job! They volunteer for this, but the whole point in having moderators is to keep things clean.

The inappropriate language (even thinly veiled) is not needed and not beneficial to the threads or discussions.

Further, it is not enjoyable for anyone here to have good discussions and productive threads locked up or have people banned.
Some of you young guys around here are doing your part to make this forum a good place and an enjoyable forum. But, you still need to keep it clean. If not careful, I am quite confident certain moderators will feel obligated to take action.


.

I just noticed something else for the 154CM-shy. It says on bussecollector that the original steelheart 1 was ATS-34. I would assume since it is so similar to 154cm that it would have similar response to heat treat protocol.

Good research... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.... I suspected Jerry probably had some prior familiarity with working with ATS-34 or 154CM. They were both very high (at or near the top) on the "It" steel list for a good while.

.

I used *it* to distance myself from that element of Sharp's post. As Dan and Coldone have said repeatedly this is a family forum- you do have a point there, I'll bear it in mind in future! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

i would loose some confidence in a stainless scrapper but i would know it was the toughest stainless blade in existance if made by busse kin.

ahhh,what the hell do i know???

About as much as the rest of us! Good warranty IF it does break..

Thank you for your comments K/G - and you're right! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> And for everyone's clarification, Dan ASKED US to be moderators, so we try to do the job as best we can. Neither Chris nor I enjoy being "heavy-handed", but we WILL do the job Dan asked us to do! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Tom

claok, i can really understand where you are coming from, i mentioned before that if someone has a knife of a certain steel break it can really affect them...
anyways, just look at the strider in noss's Destruction test vs the green beret, not saying the greeen beret isn't a good knife, it just perfromed alot differenty than the strider.

thats what good heat treat can do...
take a brittle steel and make it a fairly tough steel.
plus, I think scrapyard (and maybe the swamp too) were always advertised as using scrap piles of steel, and we all know jerry is a pack rat. it's not like the swamp stopped using sr101, they just might as well take some steel and make the best knife they can out of it!
and thats what they're doing.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

JMO though.
although I wouldn't consider this design a "hard use" knife, (it's designed to be more of an EDC right?) it will still probably be plenty tough for what it's designed for!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

sometimes I use "wtf" but i think it's better to just "what are you talking about" or something most of the time.

I'm with you brother.

Sorry 'bout that. I edited it out. But yor're a little controversial in your statement. Mainly you bought the ZT 0200 not on a whim but with a good amount of thought put into it. That knife uses 154cm. You also had a slight incident with it that proved to us that 154cm is good stuff, if heat treated right. Also you bought that fixed grip, which is 154cm. You got it because it was on sale. Wouldn't have been better not to get it if it was 154cm? If you dislike it so much and don't think of it as a hard use steel then why get it at all? I agree what happened with our grips is just not acceptable but still lots of makers use 154cm and not too many are complaining.

But you do remember the Bog Dogs and the Skinners? Right?

SRKW used D2. The D2 heat treat they used will spank the living hell out of the other D2 knives. I will admit because my CSK originally had chips in it. It's not a tough steel at all. Yet, from what SRKW did with their D2, it proves me wrong completely that D2 isn't a tough steel. With the right heat treat it can be tough.

On the MW knives, there actually have been some testing from Blade Magazine and such. In on article the auther was able to completely cut out a large escape opening from a steel fire door. No chipping occurred but the knife was obviously dull. No tip or any other damage. They are good knives. But at those prices it would make sense to buy several Scrappers.

Also relating to SRKW's Banner, 154cm is the epitome of an American Steel. 154cm IS "the American steel."

Of course I'm not here to change your opinion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Noss will have to do that.

I'm not getting one as my funds and the wifes patience are both stretched to their limits. However as regards the debate of the use of 154CM I believe any worries are totally unfounded on a knife of this size. If it was a big chopper then yeah I would be concerned but this is more for a little woodcraft and for cutting your steaks when out camping, it ain't gonna fail ya there !!!

Summary : 154CM/ATS-34 is a high carbon stainless steel generally regarded as a direct upgrade to 440C. It has a high wear resistance for a stainless steel and a low edge stability both due to the large carbide fraction with primary carbides as large as 25 microns. It is one of the more brittle stainless steels and in general works best on smaller blades indended for extended aggressive slicing.

I'm going to give the Swamp the benefit of the doubt and see what happens when they get here. The heat treatment regimen is so absolutely critical to the final performance of the blade that we should re-read the statement "they are in such widespread use that heat treat varies widely." I read it just the opposite from most I think, that there is potentially great opportunity to improve the performance with the right heat treatment protocol, the kind of treatment regimen that a mass market folder company isn't going to invest in.

I agree completely with Pit...this knife will handle its assigned tasks fine. If we were talking about a larger survival style knife then I'm with Cloak...I wouldn't have as much faith in 154cm.

Bruce,

I think you are making too big a deal out of "Toughness" for this smallish 3.5" blade.

If you really need so much toughness in a blade that size, Jerry made the AD.

Personally, I rank "toughness" of the AD pretty low compared to the other qualities of the AD. The AD also has a great blade design, a great handle design, great edge holding qualities and pretty reasonable corrosion resistance.
The extreme toughness of the AD is over-kill and just something that is there, but most people can't even make use of it. No significant value or benefit for most.
I would equate it to Reconseed's recent "Abraham's Tank" analogy.
But, would add that it is like owning an "Abraham's Tank", but need to get groceries. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ....... You just don't need the "Abraham's Tank" in most cases.

These days, 154CM is probably just Honda, Toyota or Nissan type stuff. With Jerry's heat Treatment, we might be dealing with Acura, Lexus or Infiniti type stuff (????). But, it is practical and GOOD for what most people need a knife of this type design to do.


I haven't handled the Hairy Carry yet. But, from the off-angle picture:

- The blade shape appears to be very good (although, I am not so sure about what appears to be a full-length swedge ????). - possibly on par with the AD.

- Personally, I think 0.170" thick is a good thickness for a fixed blade. I don't have much problem with blades down to 0.125" thick on some 3.5" or smaller blades, but I prefer 0.150" to 0.180" thick on my fixed blades. I like the thickness and find that with proper edge profiling (convexing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) a 0.170" - 0.180" can slice about as well as a 0.125" thick blade unless slicing apple slices and not wanting the apple slices to crack up or similar. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> - But, I acknowledge personal preference on blade thickness. Conversely, I have VERY little interest in most "Fatty" blades. I consider a "Fatty" 0.32" thick Game Warden to be just silly. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
For me, blade thickness has a LOT to do with type of grind and blade height almost as much as blade length. I don't consider 0.170" too thick at all on a full height 3.5" blade similar to the Hairy Carry. Sounds just right to me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

- The handle appears to be a slightly slimmed version of the RMD/HRLM handle which should be very good. Possibly on par with the AD

- Edge holding should be sufficient and probably at least as good as SR-77. But, not likely as good as INFI.

- Toughness may be less than half of what INFI is. BUT, it is more than sufficient for it's size and for how 99.9% of the people will use it for!

- Being stainless, it should have sufficient corrosion resistance for most cases. Significantly better than the AD.

- It is satin. The AD was available in satin, but at about $150.00 more! or about twice the price!



------------

If you feel every knife you own needs to handle concrete blocks, 3 pound sledge hammers and 60 - 90 degree vice clamp and pipe torque bends, then this knife is not for you.

If you can appreciate a knife that is utilizing a steel that should perform well for 3.5" knife as most people would use the knife, then 154CM should do fine.


------------

There is nothing wrong with testing them to compare if you want. But, sorry, no, even if I had the money, it wouldn't be interesting enough for me to chip in to pay for one for Noss to break.

It is a no brainer. SR-101, SR-77 and INFI ARE tougher.

The "POINT" is, "THIS" knife doesn't need INFI level of toughness for most people.

It still has a Swamp Rat Lifetime warranty and I have a reasonable understanding of what to expect from normal 154CM.

If Busse made this 154CM stronger than normal 154CM, then great. Without Eric posting torture test pics of 154CM, I assume it is reasonably similar to most 154CM. But, that is generally tough enough for me on a 3.5 inch blade. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Without handling the Hairy Carry, I don't know just yet. But, I am optimistic that the Hairy Carry might actually be a better over-all package than the (current version of the) AD even if they cost the same.

..... If the AD had the choil and guard fixed appropriately and a satin blade, AND a price MUCH closer to the Hairy Carry's (say around $150.00 or so), then I would "think" (considering I haven't handled the Hairy Carry yet, but I have handled a couple of AD's) the MUCH improved and modified versions of the AD might be better.


I sent some pics to Jerry with hopes of a modified run of the AD. I just couldn't keep either of the two attempts at trying to appreciate the AD with it's choil and Talon hole. But, Jerry has never replied to any of my multiple attempts to PM him. So:

I wish the AD looked more like this:



Even this would be O.K. (but, I do prefer the above):




Compared to the regular AD's:






...... and cost closer to $150.00!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

I would buy one of the above modified concepts of the AD even if in 154CM.

.... But, I would prefer closer to $108.95 to $118.95 than $138.95 . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

.

I'm sure KG can give better answers, but here are mine:
1) Because 154CM is a very fine stainless steel and some of us like stainless.
2) Whatever it is that makes his SR101 and SR77 better than 52100 and S7.
3) As a limited edition Busse-made knife in a premium steel, I don't consider it particularly expensive.

Yes.... this is common on quite a few things. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

.

I consider the Hairy Carry to be made in an appropriate steel for an EDC small knife. I doubt that it is as "tough" as INFI or SR77, but edge holding and corrosion resistance should be very good. As far as Jerry Busse's heat treat, I'm confident that he has experimented with stainless steels and knows them well. If he didn't think 154CM was a good enough steel for some of his Swamp Rats, he would not have bought it.

Vic,

Your answers are more than sufficient. I can't add much. But:



- I agree. Some people want stainless. And 154Cm and many other stainless options would be fine for this size knife. Plus, much of the excitment probably isn't so much the steel as the nice design - speculation on my part.


------------





Yes! I mostly and generally agree.
I think it is generally safe to assume Jerry's heat treatment will probably be a little tougher than many maker's who have used 154CM. Jerry definitly takes pride in his heat-treatment. He might just harden it to some "ideal" hardness. Some makers might make it to hard and brittle. Others might make it to soft and less edge qualities. Heat Treatment is always a balance and compromise of qualities to some degree. Jerry is pretty good at finding a good balance.



-----------------





I don't know that I honestly consider 154CM a "Premium" steel these days. I consider it a pretty good and VERY functional stainless steel for many knives up to about 5" and sometimes 6" or so - depending on intended use. Aside from that, I have mixed feelings on the price. For various reasons, I can sort of see and justify the price. G10 is more expensive as raw material and more expensive to machine. The glass in the material is hard and hard on bits, blades and belts. Plus, it is just generally harder to work with. So, I justify increase in cost for that. I will buy one. On the other hand, for various other reasons, I sort of think it should be priced more in the $118.95 range. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

.

I agree with all of Vic's above statement.


That said, I am a pretty fair fan of VG-10 and honestly probably prefer it over any 154CM I have owned so far. Jerry might bring 154CM close - ?????


But, yes the F1 would appear to be very similar in over-all size.

From specs and speculation on the picture, I am guessing the Hairy Carry has just a little bit smaller blade and a little bit larger handle than the F1. I am pretty confident I will be good with those dimensions on the Hairy Carry ... I am also fine with the F1.

I can't say anything bad about the F1. It is a GREAT knife.

But, I can tell you I have the micarta version of the F1 and the micarta F1 "Usually" costs quite a lot more than the Hairy Carry.

I made a "Great" deal (steal) on mine at about $125 - $135 if I remember correctly (?????).

But, it usually sells for around $175.00 - $190.00.

Again, G10 costs more than micarta.

The micarta F1 is an LE. Fallkniven's LE is a pretty close to mirror polished blade and very smooth polished micarta, white liners and a nickel silver bolster.


But still, maybe that helps put the price of the Hairy Carry into perspective for you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

.

......... If you feel you need to.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

.

We've seen what the Busse boys did with D2, I'll assume the 154CM is a similar deal until I know otherwise.. Unlike Fallkniven's 2 year warranty, the HC is warranted to last!

BLD, my answers to your questions-

1/ It's a well thought out design, the handle size and shape make it a real user. I wanted a small stainless full tang blade.
2/ D2 Bogdog...
3/ Because they will sell it for that- supply and demand. Plus it's well tempered decent steel with a good handle and a great warranty.. I would have liked to have seen it for less to be honest, but I want it and can (just) afford it. It'll be my first and penultimate Bussekin LE (my other LE will be the S7 when they come out).

You know me too well mate! I can't wait to hit the hills with the HC and a nice shiny S7- as you never know when you need a sharp prybar... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bump!