I may be wrong about something ....

I beat the "less but best" drum with annoying regularity.

Case in point:

NOTE: I will be using Knights Armament ARs as an example of my concept. I could have chosen Wilson Combat / Cabot / Nighthawk / Alchemy / Guncrafter 1911s, Caesar Guerini shotguns, Anschutz rimfires, SIG San rifles, Korth revolvers, etc. etc. etc.

Over the past few months I've been seriously considering investing in a pair of Knight's Armament SR-15 E3 Mod 2 carbines. The best deal I can find on this model is $2250 each. What makes them special? They have ambi lowers, special bolts / barrel extensions / bolt carriers / and gas system. The E3 MOD 2 is reputed to go 20,000 rounds without a bolt failure. In fact, they rumor is they've never had an E3 bolt break. AR-15 bolts are the weak link in the AR-15 system.

I'm on vacation this week and have spent another 20 hours reading / researching this carbine (so far this week). Last night I spent five hours reading, and the rabbit hole was deep.

The five hours last night took me through a labyrinth of pro LAV (Larry Vickers) and anti LAV threads (tangentially related to the KAC AR). This spun concentrically to gun forum A vs gun forum B competition and a lot of accusations of well known (some only in their own minds) online gun "personalities" like Rob_S (made the famous "AR Chart"), Ken Hackathorn, Grant Timberlake, Stickman, Jack Leuba, IraqGunz, and others. All of whom I've spoken with personally (mostly online).

Long story short (too late), I typically prefer "SME" (sub-matter-expert) laden websites over "hobbyist" websites. However, over the past year I've found the SME sites to be "echo chambers" for fanboys as opposed to the "I can build a KAC level gun for $500 in my basement" sentiment on most hobbyist forums.

What does this mean and why does it matter?

1st ... just because product A cost more than product B doesn't mean product A is the best product for everyone.
2nd ... You have to be very careful and discerning when reading online forums. Many of them support brand X because brand X is a secret site sponsor (or may even own the website).
3rd ... When a site openly censors open debate and dialog about the actual Cost To Performance (CTP) of a product you have to question the motivation.

Where am I going with this?

Again, you'll have me say "buy less buy best" very often. I still believe this to be true, but am starting to think the advice should carry with it a "conditional disclaimer". By "conditional disclaimer" I mean follow the advice if you plan on using the item to defend your life. Not every gun we buy will be with us when we fast rope out of a 'hawk in the middle of a sand storm firefight. For most of us, 99% of our guns are range toys or hunting tools.

For example, the KAC SR-15 E3 MOD 2 I've been considering has a price point of $2,250. I have several PSA AR-15s that I bought for around $500. Does the "buy less buy best" advice apply here? Yes and no. Yes, I would support a person's decision to buy the KAC if it was going to be their only AR and they planned on: shooting it a lot; using it for self defense; have enough money left over to put a good optic / sling / ammo with the gun. No, I would not support a person's decision to buy the KAC if they just wanted a fun gun for the range and weren't wealthy.

Other Considerations

Is the KAC 5x more gun than the PSA? I think this depends on your application. If I'm going into a WW2 Stalingrad situation I'd want the best of the best of the best, but for 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999% of us no the KAC isn't 5x more gun because we won't ever push the gun enough to wring out the last 10% of performance that costs 90% of the price.

Practice What You Preach

I have a large pile of PSA AR-15s I bought new from PSA and have been trying to sell (to fund my KAC purchases). All of my PSA guns are brand new. I'm considering shooting these "cheap / cost effective / inexpensive" PSA guns exclusively until I have a problem with them to see how far a $450-550 AR will go under normal (re: range and maybe a class) situation.

I'm not 100% committed to doing this but am strongly considering it. After all, I can replace the entire PSA upper for $100 less than a KAC bolt. Each PSA will be equipped with a Vortex optic (or carry handle in one instance).

I'll feel pretty foolish if the "I can build a KAC level gun for $500 in my mom's basement" crowd is actually correct ... since I've been bashing those people for the past 15 years.

The possible PSA contestants ....

I think I'm just going to sell all of these. In the end, I have LMTs which are top-of-the-line so why spend the resources to test these guns?

Ref your last post. YES, testing is good. You know what is more prone to happen that way. NO, testing out those rifles will NOT determine How much better the KAC is. Yes it would be a waste of time and money (ammo and to and from the range). IF you are set on a KAC, WHY would you want to possibly diminish what you can get out of the guns you have. The second one down in the first series of pictures looks like my Colt.

P.S. I REALLY like that shorty, but bet it is a Bit#* er ah loud. How long is the barrel btw?

Oh and I forgot to say, once again, great post. I like reading stuff like that, even if I won't be buying any of those. Keep it up, please.

I took two of the seven guns to the range after making the post. I didn't enjoy shooting them nearly as much as I enjoyed shooting my LMT yesterday.

I'm just going to stick with my "I'm a gun snob" mantra. Someone is going to get a smoking deal on the lot.

The two pistols have 10.5" barrels. Being pistols you can carry them concealed ... which is a benefit for those who travel to states that have weird firearm transportation laws. If they honor your CCW permit .. you can take one of the 10.5" pistol ARs as it'll be covered under your license.

ETA: that is to say if you want to take an AR but the state restricts transportation of AR type rifles. Check the laws before you travel.

Not everyone can afford the top tier guns. I can’t. I’m glad PSA brings AR’s to the rest of us with a little money left over for ammo.

Gary PLEASE leave me in your will!

Ok so I like this thread. I’ve shot knights, LMT, BCM, built guns that compete with these in the quality class, and aero, and friends PSA and Anderson.

So while you absolutely get nice shooting rifles with the Knights, LMT and the slightly lower BCM class guns is the engineering, manufacturing, and quality control in higher levels. As someone that works and manufacturing and also has relationships shooting for some folks in the industry. People don’t realize how much T&E companies like knights and LMT does in house companies like BCM do some but also use support from pro staff type shooters to get what they do. They also know their bread and butter isn’t innovating and they stick with more proven products.
When your dealing with PSA and Anderson they are doing some but you can bet the farm it’s nothing like hat LMT and knights do. This is testing before something even hit production and their in house QC does material testing and process control testing and dimensional testing. People don’t understand what goes on in house to make a professional level weapon.
While companies like BCM aren’t making everything in-house they are also going through the steps to make sure their suppliers are manufacturing to their specs they hold their suppliers accountable.
So here we are at lower tier like Anderson and PSA. PSA uses FN barrels in their rifles. But just because FN is the maker that doesn’t mean they are made and held to the same specs as the barrels FN makes for their own weapons. I’ve seen at so many shooting matchs the rifles that have gone down and the QC issues that slip through. As soon as the guys put a moderate round count on their rifles they start to see malfunctions. Lots of these rifles are over gassed and when educated guys like me tear take them apart to upgrade them for friends you see improper torque. Parts not staked, parts out of spec. How are they selling their parts so cheap? They have to skimp on something.

When I shot knights guns that friends have was it some life changing event. No they ran as smooth as rifles I’ve put together myself using top tier parts manufacturers. When I shot my LMT was it rainbows and unicorns? No it runs and shoots well though.
My rifles I assembled that I believe match the quality of the knights and LMT cost me $1900+ to build. I also invested in over $800+ in tools to be able to properly build my rifles. I had to do extensive research to make sure the parts I picked were compatible with one another and occasionally would find out they weren’t once I got them. Then I had to put thousands of rounds through them to prove they were reliable enough to use for defensive purposes and competitive shooting. I build relationships with a lot of the employees of companies so I could ask them questions and it’s paid off. So I’ve spent tons of money in time and countless hours of research how do I put a monetary value on that? And the tools and gages needed? The technical know how to check tolerances and tolerance stacking and to diagnose the issues in the AR platform. So when your buying LMT, Knights, BCM, and the likes you are buying more than the physical product. I wish I could put some of the pictures of my rifles I’ve built after testing. Going 4K rounds with only adding lube and pulling a bore snake through.
If I was to do it all over again I’d be hard pressed to justify the time and money I have put into building. And not just buy a set JP enterprises rifles for competition and a set of knights or LMT or BCM or SOLGW rifles for social work.

I've owned ....

Adams Arms
ArmaLite
BCM
Bushmaster
Colt
Daniel Defense
DPMS
Eagle Arms
Essential Arms
LMT
LWRC
Palmetto State Armory
POF
Rock River Arms
SGW
Smith & Wesson
Springfield Armory

The only guns I'd consider for self defense are BCM, Daniel Defense and LMT. A lot of people place LWRC at the same level as Daniel Defense. I've owned 13 LWRC (9 of which were their top of the line) so you can say I really tried to like them, but I wouldn't take one for free if you offered it. They simply don't work with a wide range of ammo quality in varying weather conditions. NOTE: all of my LWRC were piston models. RUN AWAY from piston ARs.

I look at pistons as trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist. They might work for a few direct action guys that are worried about rotor wash blowing sand into their guns but all the guys that I’ve talked to that know their [censored] said as soon as it looked like that were getting in a gunfight they pulled CLP bottles out and doused their piston guns.

Also I’ve been seeing Daniel defense guns slipping out of the factory without the castle nuts staked. That bothers me.

Yesterday I fired ...

BCM with Aimpoint CompM4 (my "beater" gun)
Daniel Defense with Aimpoint T-2 (my wife's gun)
LMT MRP with Aimpoint CompM4S (my "Stalingrad" gun)
LMT MRP with Trijicon ACOG (my 500 meter gun)

Today I ended up going back to the range and in total fired several hundred rounds through ...

PSA 10.5" M4 Pistol with Vortex SparcAR
PSA MidLength FSB with Vortex SparcAR
PSA MidLength Free Float with Vortex Spitfire 3x

Conclusions ...

BCM, DD, LMT (good, better, best)

The difference between these guns and the PSA is akin to the difference between driving a F150 XL vs a F150 Raptor. Make mine a Raptor please.

ETA: I like PSA's business philosophy (they want to make ARs available to all law abiding Americans regardless of income level). However, you get what you pay for. Period.

All companies make mistakes.

BCM had some 14.5" ML that had the wrong gas port diameter, and recently their bolt carriers look like they were milled by a band saw.

LMT had the issue with the NZ bolts.

KAC shipped a few of the first MOD 2 lowers (no longer have QD ports built in) with the trigger guard ears not properly milled. Cut enough fingers that it made the internet rounds.

Noveske had a batch of barrels slip out with non-concentrically threaded muzzles.

HOWEVER, each company quickly noticed someone was falling down on the job and took care of the problem.

With regards to DD ...

They let some guns out without the handguard screws locktited. People complained that the handguards loosened. That was an easy home fix. My personal issue is their use of a polymer dust cover. I hate them. Also, just install a $7 MagPul trigger guard instead of that stupid grip / guard combo. The grip is fine, but I had the attached trigger guard.

Daniel Defense guns are FAR more refined than BCM. I've owned enough of both to intone a strong "refinement" preference for DD.

To my mind, BCM has replaced Colt as the "working standard". From there you step up in refinement and innovation.

Yeah I agree with your observations. As I builder I get to source my parts from companies that an individual part might be their strong suit which is kind of nice. I also pick companies that if I get something out of spec I know will stand behind it and make it right. Hopefully the choices I make reduce that possibility though.

Man, you guys are getting technical. I like it whey Y'all talk dirty!

You would.

Ya gotta have goals.

Did you ever get the SR-15s, Gary? If you did and posted about it somewhere else I missed it.

Kinda interesting thread to revisit. I’m at the point now with some of my rifles I’m seeing a degradation in accuracy on one and probably need to change to bolts and gas rings in another. It’s nice to be able to service things one self.