Carbine Owners?

Hey big question to any Carbine owners..... what are you running? Got ahold of Magpul'S Art of the Tactical Carbine and has peak my interest in them. I've handled rifles (hunting) and hand guns and have done some basic research into the AR style gun. but want to know more before i make a purchase.. any advice? DI vs Piston is something i somewhat grasp but haven't really decided on. wondering if it's like the chev vs ford argument... more matter of opinion. Any thoughts? also if you want pics of your setup is always welcome!

First thing to keep in mind is the current AR15 is far removed from the Vietnam M16. Also if you ask 20 different people what they think about the AR15 you will get 20 different answers. I will give you my opinion and somebody will disagree and flame me for it. So be it they are welcome to their opinion.

I have two AR's both Bushmaster's. I don't have pictures but I like to keep it simple, all they have on them is a sling and flashlight.

You might want to go to AR15.com and read some of the post. Lots of good info.

Now for the gas piston/direct impingement debate....personally I think the gas piston is a solution looking for a problem. With that said there is nothing wrong with either. If you want a gas piston get an AR that was built from the ground up as a gas piston rifle. They've had some problems with retrofits.

Stick with well known makers....Colt, LMT, Stag, Bushmaster, CMMG, etc. Colt and LMT get the best reviews.

A direct impingement AR will run dirty if you keep it well lubed. There are dozens of examples of 2000 to 5000 round counts on AR15.com. If you clean it after each shooting you won't have a problem. If you let the carbon build up in the reciever and on the bolt they are a nightmare to clean.

Thanks jackell, I'll keep all that in mind and will check out AR15.com. anyone else running something other then AR's? any bullpup type rifles?

This is great advice. Find a price point and then research against the brands mentioned above. FWIW seems to me that Piston ARs are great way of increasing the price that manufacturers can charge.

Wellllllll I LOVE my Sabre!

Man, one of my favorite rifles/carbine platforms. I am currently running a DSA gun that I put together with one of their specials for about 600 bucks. It is a flat top, 1-9 twist (my favorite), mid-length gas system, fluted brl, Nitraded finish (supposedly better than hard chrome still out on it as I only have about a 1,000 rds on it in the last couple range visits), regular hgs, complete lower, a BUIS, and a few other pieces I had laying around like a MOE pg, VLTOR carbine stock. I currently run a Aimpoint too. I like irons but I am a lot quicker with the red dot system.

I have had Colts, Bushmaster, DPMS, and others through the years but the thing to remember about an AR is that quality parts equal a quality rifle.

Currently, my "go to" M4 is a CMMG.

It has a 16" M4 profile upper, 1/9 twist, WASP coated.
Magpul MOE stock, Troy rail, GGG vertical foregrip, MATECH USGI BUIS, and an EoTech.

To me, DI vs Piston is an answer to a question few need answered. If you keep your rifle in decent repair/state of cleanliness, then a piston is far from being necessary. They will run dirty longer, and run cooler if firing full auto, but since my M4-gery isn't FA and I've run AR's with 2000+ rds of dirty Russian ammo down the bore between cleanings, I'll stick with DI.

been eyeing a stag arms AR, anyone own or know anyting about stag arms? headin to their website now, just curious to know some opinions on them?


Nice Rifles, makes me want oe that much more thanks!

Stag makes decent stuff, actually.

Have a Bushmaster ar-15 and love it. Shot a couple thousand rounds through it and never had any hickups.

I have a Rock River with a 16" bull barrel. It has never ever jammed and it is one of my most accurate rifles. With a 3 power scope, I've shot right at .25 inch groups. It's short enough to be quick but accurate enough to reach out there.

I'll try and post a picture.

mines a dpms lower kit with a cmmg upper, with a magpul ctr buttstock, magpul buis rear sight, in the pic it has my brother's eotech, but i'm running a vortex red dot on mine.

Nice looking rifles gents.

I have a few carbine sized rifles including AR's, AK's and FAL's. My advie on the AR platform would be to keep it simple (resisting hanging too much "tactical" stuff off of it). Start out with iron sites and learn how to use them.

Any top tier manufacturer's 16" A3 rifle should work well for you. A sling, a head up optic (Aimpoint/EOTech), flip up sights and a light are the only additional gadgets on my most complicated AR. On occasion, I add a bi-pod as an accessory as well which I couple with a 1.5-5x scope for certain fun filled activites. I do think rather highly of Magpul P-Mags as well.

The AR based piston system is a nice design, but honestly, I have really never had a problem with the standard system. The gas tube can be a pain to remove on a used rifle, but most people never do that.

The newer ACR styles carbines are neat looking, but for my civilian purposes, a basic A3 16" barreled AR has performed very well for me and at their price, I will pass for now.

The top rifle is a 20" HBAR - a too heavy for carrying around all day. The middle rifle is what I use most and my favored configuration. The bottom rifle is for longer distance fun more precise shooting.

My Bushmaster Armalite mid-length Carbine being held by my resident jackrabbit killer expert:

Ironman - my opinion in this matter isn't very humble <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />.

I've owned AR15 type rifles continuously since 1984. During those 26 years I've also owned at least one copy of the following (from the original manufacturers): AK47 (Russian; Romanian; Chinese; Yugo; Bulgarian; etc); Beretta AR70; Daewoo AR100; Daewoo Max-1; Daewoo Max-2; Daewoo DR-200; FAL (DSA; Imbel); HK-91; HK-93; HK-94; IMI Galil 386; Robinson Armament M96; Sig Sauer 556; Springfield Armory M1A (Bush; Scout; Standard; National Match); Sterling AR180; Steyr AUG 905; Valmet 76; Valmet 76 Folder.

Ten years ago I also owned a Class 3 FA Inland M2 Carbine, and played extensively with a FA C3 FNC.

The AR15's I've owned have included: ArmaLite (Coal Valley); ArmaLite (div of Eagle Industries); BCM; Bushmaster; Colt; Colt Defense; DPMS; Eagle Arms; Essential Arms; Olympic Arms; SGW; Smith & Wesson; others.

ETA: I forgot to mention I've owned 13 or 14 Rock River Arms too.

I've learned two very very important lessons:

1) If you buy a "tier one" (that is to say a "non hobby grade") DI AR15 you will be good to go for a very long time as long as you "run it wet" (in other words - keep the bolt carrier and inside of the upper receiver lubricated).

2) "Ground Up" piston designs are superior to DI. DI guns poop where they eat. An example of an "affordable" ground up piston carbine is the Sig556. They are not without fault (you will need to replace the buttstock and sights), but the two I've owned would out shoot all of my Colt AR's while staying CLEAN and COOL. My biggest compliant about the Sig556 is the lack of a chrome lined bore <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

If you want a T1 AR find a: Bravo Company Manufacturing (commonly referred to as BCM); Colt Defense 6920; or Noveske.

Get an AK47 , I say is the best rifle . Is not the most accurate rifle but with minimmum of mentenance it will fire in anny condition , it doesn't jam and your grandchildren will fire it too.
In Romania untill a few years it was mandatory for every man to go to the army . The Ak is the rifle of use ,and as you can imagine every 6 months or 1 year a new man puts his hands on an AK , the same AK used for 20 or 30 years .

You should look into build a FAL like myself. More work then slapping a AR together, but I think it's going to be worth it. I'm going to order a AR lower just to have around for when I feel like making one. I got to check out Ban's when he put his together, super light and fast, but the FAL is just mean.

If you're looking into building a AR, many of the different receivers are made from the same factory, just different logos.

This list is about 4-5 years old, but gives you and idea:

-Lewis Machine & Tool
LMT
Lauer
DS Arms
PWA
Eagle
Armalite
Knights Armament
Barrett

-Continental Machine Tool
Stag
Rock River Arms
High Standard
Noveske
Colt
Century (New)
Global Tactical
CLE
S&W
MGI
Wilson Tactical
Grenadier Precision??


-LAR Manufacturing
LAR
Bushmaster
Ameetec
DPMS
CMMG
Double Star
Fulton Armory
Spike's Tactical

-JVP
Double Star
LRB
Charles Daly

-Mega Machine Shop
Mega
GSE
Dalphon
POF
Alexander Arms

-Olympic
Olympic
SGW
Tromix
Palmetto
Dalphon
Frankford
Century (Old)

-Sun Devil
Sun Devil forged billet receivers

-Superior
Superior Arms
Lauer (New)

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=50947

Here is a pretty good buyers guide for the AR-15. JWise is a pretty good guy and pretty knowledgable. Here is a link. Lots of good info in here.

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81462

This is a good thread. For some reason I have been thinking about a new carbine. I have my DSA middy, but I just can't love the 5.56mm rd per say. I have had the majority of different platforms from AK, Galil, AR, FAL, M14, SKS, lever-action, Garand, bolts, so I am not new to them. I love the 7.62x51mm cartridge and the 7.62x39mm cartridge. I kinda have the hankering for a Para FAL again, love the platform and regret getting rid of the one I built a long time ago. Of course I can do an AK again, but something about the FAL paratrooper. Heck, I held a Sage M14 stocked Bush this last weekend and really liked it but it would be a serious piece of change and not really a carbine. Not really sure what I am going to do, but the FAL is in the running for the time being.

Awesome guns and pictures, Yard!

Para FAL? Hmm...

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

PBL, your killing me. That is what I think I realy want. I love the Type II receiver and 18" brl. The para I built several years ago was on a Imbel Type III receiver and a Imbel folder--but it long went away. Of course back then FALS were the rage, just wish I had kept one or two.

Here's three of my FAL's.....



Top = Imbel GL Type III built up with an unissued Imbel M964 kit (all us compliance parts are DSA except for Penguin furniture).

Middle = DSA Type I SA58 18" Para.

Bottom = DSA Type I SA58 18" with OD X-Series Furniture.

FALgoodness <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If I had to own one firearm an 18" FAL Para would be on the very short list of candidates (along with a Glock 19; Ruger 10/22; Remington 870; and Colt 6920).

Perhaps more to the OP's interests....

Might not be as sexy as a M4gery, but I think the Colt 6520 (lightweight) is hard to beat!

The Sig556 is a nice base piston design, but requires upgrades....

Nice guns Architect!!!

Speaking of the Sig series. I see the "Classic" available quite often. The Classic looks like it has the better sights such as the diopeter, the side folding stock, more original handguards, etc. Does anyone have any experience with them?

kuanomar - thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sumo - yes, I have experience with them. The Classic has a few notable changes:

1) Side folding stock
2) Redesigned lower receiver

The diopter sights are available on either the Classic or the ER models....and they SUCK.

The side folding stocks have a reputation of self destructing (the plastic is cheap; and the clip that holds the stock to the front handguard has a tendency to pull out and stick to the handguard).

The lower looks like butt, but is lighter and has "better ergos" (the mag release is easier to reach by those with short fingers). However, you forfeit reinforcing.

I selected the "ER" model because I planned on installing AR type sights anyway (cross training simplified). The M4 style stock has too many options available to not appreciate, but you'll want to replace the factory "receiver extension" with a milspec aluminum one.

Oh, I will add, the "Classic" handguards are nice if you want to save weight (around 10-12 ounces), but I like the built in rails on the "Tri-Rail" handguard. The additional "front" weight also makes follow up shots SUPER fast as their is extremely little muzzle rise on the "ER" model.

My BANGBANGBANGBANGBANGBANGBANG... toy:

[img]<a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b328/theblackened14/?action=view&current=AK1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b328/theblackened14/AK1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>[/img]


Stock Opened
[img]<a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b328/theblackened14/?action=view&current=AK2.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b328/theblackened14/AK2.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>[/img]

Arsenal US manufactured Bulgarian AK-101 series clone, Chambered in 5.56 NATO, obviously also runs .223 (like a hog too). Reciever is fitted with the Russian side folding stock with Warsaw pact length stock. This thing locks down tighter than a ... well, not going to go there. Feels like a fixed stock with it's open, no joke. ROCK solid. I like the shorter length stock, handles a lot better wearing armor, while not being rattly like the T-6 stocks always seem to be. Right now it's in a stock configuration, but I intend to get a tri-rail poly handgaurd for the lower handgaurd, and possibly an UltiMak gas tube rail if I decide to mount glass. One nifty thing, the reciever to pistol grip angle is such that the rifle stands up neatly in the corner without scratching up the paint on the wall. At some point I'd like to purchase another Arsenal chambered in 7.62x39 and Tac it out. I'll be loading tons of Krebs Custom components onto that one. Lemme give you an idea of what it'll look like when I'm done.

the aftermarket rail system: KC Reciever Rail System, the most incredible and ingenious thing to ever happen to an AK!

And thier custom rifle page, the weapon that most resembles what I have in mind is the Enhanced Speed Load Tactical Rifle, Catalog number 89: Sorry, can't link right to the pic,...t;" />: KCI Custom Kalashnikovs

Nice AK!!

Thanks, she's my baby. just to see how long it takes (probably forever), I'm running it FILTHY dirty without a cleaning until it malfunctions. I don't think it will though, after all, it is a Kalashnikov. It sits ready in my closet with a full mag of .223 Soft points ready for anyone who waltzes into the wrong house with the wrong intentions. I'd prefer to not have to exercise my rights to defend myself though, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

I think Charlie Daniel's summorized my feelings on this matter perfectly in his song "Simple Man"......



"Well, you know what's wrong with the world today
People done gone and put their Bible's away
They're living by the law of the jungle not the law of the land
The good book says it so I know it's the truth
An eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth
You better watch where you go and remember where you been
That's the way I see it I'm a Simple Man.

Now I'm the kinda man that'd not harm a mouse
But if I catch somebody breakin in my house
I've got twelve guage shotgun waiting on the other side

So don't go pushing me against my will
I don't want to have to fight you but I dern sure will
So if you don't want trouble then you'd better just pass me on by"

I hope to never have to use one for defense either. My bedside gun is a XDM40 in a lock-box with a quick combo and pop up open door.

Below that is an AR.

Woe to those foolish enough to threaten my household for they will cease to breathe if they step foot in my home.

We don't have children so that particular control/safety concern doesn't exist for us. Every night when we get home from work a Colt 6920 (with an Eagle Industries Active Shooters bandoleer: four 30rd M4 mags and two 15rd G19 mags) and Remington 870 Home Defense (with 25 round shell belt) come out of the safe. Every morning they go back in the safe. Between the 556 Carbine; 12 Gauge; and our two "EDC" Glocks....

http://www.eagleindustries.com/product.php?productid=132&cat=94&page=1

I sincerely pray that I never have to shoot someone. However, my house is my castle, and my family will be defended at any / all costs.

Thanks for sharing that link Arch. Man, you are prepared. The kids not not to touch any of my firearms without permission.

But, I always, always have the guns locked up.

Soon, I'll be consolidating down to one two handguns, and a rifle.

While hunting always contributes to my choice of firearm, home defense is even more important. Luckily, there are a few fireams in my safe that can double as a good HD and hunting rifle. Like my R-15 in .243 Win.

Anyhow,

Thanks for sharing.

K, how do you like the R-15 in .243? That seems like a good combo to me.

Sumo,

I like it very much. It's my go to coyote gun. With moderate distance and good shot placement, I assume it will take a deer with ease. As a home defense rifle, while a little heavy and long, I think that it would do well.

I can shoot 3/4 inch groups with 58gr hornady v-max. It can probably do better. I think my smallest group is under 1/2 and inch. It's topped with a bushnell 6500 elite 4.5 x 30 mil dot scope.

There's not much I can't do with it. I shoot is so often that it feels like an extension of me.

I like the sound of that R-15. I have over 400 rds of .243 win loaded up with Hornady 65 A-Max bullets so that might be a good thinking rifle for me. The .243 win does a great job on deer, at least in OK with the right bullet choice.

Always remember though, the handgun is only to be used to fight to get to the long gun. Never bring a knife to a gunfight (even a SYKCO, awesome as they are), and likewise, never bring a pistol to a rifle fight. Luck be with you that you never have a need for the rifle, pistol, or shotgun by your bed, but my favorite <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" />Drill Sgt from basic said that Overkill is just a figure of speech, not an actual limit.

kuanomar,

If you ever do need to use your R-15 for home defense or even CQC:
a little trick I learned from a Marine buddy of mine, since the corps issues M16A4s across the board standard issue, they've had to deal with the unfortunate fact that the M16 is a tad unwieldy in tight spaces. Something you may want to consider then, is placing the toe of the stock over and behind your shoulder and planting your cheek on the stock. it won't allow for precise shot placement, but it will allow you to manuever that 20 inch (I'm assuming) barrel around the corner, while at the same time bringing the center of balance closer in. I don't know how much the .243 recoils either, so I'd try it out on the range and see if it a works without bruising. 5.56 doesn't recoil enough to make this trick difficult, but I [censored] sure wouldn't try it with an AR-10. a foregrip does help a lot, if that's also an option for you.

Do any of you guys ever get the urge, late at night when no one else is home, to clear the rooms in your home? I swear, I've got my route down pat, I can almost do it with my eyes closed.

Thanks for the advice. I will probably move my magpul stock to my R-25.

I like a full size stock on my hunting guns, but the magpul is solid.

Magpul does make good stuff. If I'm not mistaken, they're based out of Colorado, I wanna go take a tour of thier facility sometime if they'll let me. I have TONS of links to firearms accessories (I really reasearch my stuff before I buy. Burned once buying crap I couldn't return, won't do it again), if you ever have something in mind, drop me a PM and I can see what I can dig up.

Thanks. Yeah magpul is out of CO. One of my friends served with the founder of magpul.

it's a small world isn't it? I run into people I went to basic training with all the time

Well, I took my middy AR out for a shooting session Saturday. The rifle is accurate enough as I was hitting steel gongs at 400 yds with an Aimpoint M2, no magnification, and regular handguards. I guess with some magnification I might do a lot better but my eye went to squat after a while of squinting.

hey Architect, i like that sight set up you have on that 556.
Who makes them ? i have got a classic and would like to do somethin similar

Bashman - the front sight is a Samson HK Config Quick Flip (QF-FFS-SIG); and the rear sight is a LaRue LT-103.

Why thank you.
I tell ya i really enjoy that 556 and i agree the factory sights suck

Funny here I can buy a sks or ruger mini 14 and use it any where but an ar15 is restricted and can only be shot at a range.
My nephew bought a russian sks and 1100 rounds of ammo last summer and he had a blast with it.
I've only owned 22's and hunting rifles, but I think I am going to buy an sks and mod it a bit and see what mischief I can get up to with it

Can you pick up an AK and run it anywhere coyote? a decent AK will run you half what it costs for an AR, and with the money you save you can tac it out just as hardcore high speed low drag-like if you wanted. Make a black rifle out of a brown-ish one

AK and their clones are prohibited in Canada.
A Russian sks runs about $275 with the Chinese version less
If you watch for deals you can pick up 1100 of fmj for about $125 for the SKS.
A mini 30 used will run about $800 so I would rather buy an sks then get a synthetic stock for it.
My nephew's sks was in very good shape when he bought it and he has had fun with it.

I used to own a mini 14 but sold it because I didn't have a use for it, now I wish I had kept it

A Norinco AR 15 will run $1000 up here and a colt will be more than double that

Yote, snag a SKS. A friend who served in Viet Nam with the Marines tells of a story while on Operation Tuscaloosa where they were pinned down by a vill of women and SKS. He had plenty of respect for the rifle and round.

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm

I'd go with an SKS and pick up aftermarket mags if that's an option. Tapco sells 20 round poly mags, and really cool synthetic stocks (I've used one on a Yugo SKS, it made a huge difference in the feel of the rifle) for the SKS, and the mags are quick detach, so you have a reasonable mag change capability instead of reloading with strippers. They do have the long extension on the front though, pain in the butt to fit into a mag pouch. IMO, the Yugo built SKSs are the best models, hands down. Yugoslavia was/is a pretty poor nation, and they don't have a huge budget for replacing broken weapons like Russia or China, so they build up thier SKSs a lot more, and they feel more solid than a russian or chinese. If you handle them side by side, there's a noticable weight difference between them. The heavier barrels would probably turn out better groups too. Good varminting rifles with a good scope.

Hell yes. Sometimes I clear them with one of my swords. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

5 round maximum for most centerfire rifles in Canada

Do I have to have a chrome lined barrel and chamber? I'm pretty good about cleaning my weapons.

No, but for the 50 bucks more on the AR it is nice to know that you do have the CL bore and chamber.

Oh weak. I don't like Canada's gun laws. BOO... well, I guess you won't have to worry about aftermarket mags then, but I wouldn't pass up a chance to grab an SKS and tac it out. I almost picked one up myself, but I couldn't see the point in purchasing two 7.62x39 rifles, since I already had an AK in the same caliber.

For me it makes more sense to buy the sks than get a mini 30

Definitely, they're right about on par with each other, and the SKS would probably be a lot cheaper.