Sharp,


Greco is somewhat of dilemma to me.

I like "some" of his knife designs in general: Good blade shapes, good ergonomics.

My main issue with Greco knives is fit and finish. - Which is "HORRIBLE" IMO.

Two types of fit:
Fit in the hand is excellent.
Fit of scales to tang is horrible.

Poor Finish being:
- Very rough and sometimes sharp edges around entire perimeter of knives;
- Flats are rough like raw steel; (but, at least no pits and other machine marks like under Busse coating. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)
- Scales are POORLY fitted and cheap poorly finished scales at that;
- Lanyard holes have very rough edges that will chew on lanyards;
- Thumb notches are "hacked" into blade;
- Factory edge is very obtuse, but otherwise clean with smooth surface.


I don't really know what type of tool Greco uses to get this ..... uhhh ..... "rustic" finish look cut into his thumb notches.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> (????):




Notice the piece of fuzz to the right of the notches.... The corners are rough and snag stuff. That is what happens when trying to wipe off a Greco blade with a cloth. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


The primary grinds are very good. All of mine are flat ground. All of mine have VERY even and symetrical grinds.

I am guessing on this part: But, I have to wonder, considering how good the primary grind lines are and how bad the finish out on the knives is, I am "Assuming" John Greco has his blanks cut and ground by an outside source, then John sharpens them. He doesn't appear to do much more to the blanks than sharpen them, spray a lacquer coating on the blades to help prevent rust, then slap some very poorly fitted scales on the handle.


Either that or he is VERY talented at cutting blanks and primary grinding and just doesn't care to put a little more effort into a decent finish on the knives .. ?????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

At least John has a few decent designs and tough steel! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

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John uses 8670 steel on most of his knives. But, he offers the option of 52100 (similar to SR-101) on many knives.

Most of his 8670 knives are .200" thick regardless of length.
He states his 52100 knives are 3/16" (.1875"), but the "one" 52100 knife I have is about 0.177" thick. All of the knives I have from Greco except the Dangler are VERY thick for their size. Not quite DMCG thick. But, very thick and stout.
The Dangler which is like a little caping knife and quite handy with a great secure fit and feel in the hand is about 0.116" thick - which is a very reasonable thickness for it's size.

I honestly don't know much about 8670 steel. It isn't discussed much and isn't a common steel for knife makers. I have seen it compared to L6. But, I honestly don't have much experience with L6. From what I have read, L6 is used for band saw blades and is VERY tough similar to L7 (SR-77).
To me, this 8670 seems to have characteristics somewhere between L6 and 52100 (SR-101) (?????).
Anything between L6 and 52100 should be Very tough and hold a pretty decent edge.

8670 contains:

Carbon: .70-.75%
Chromium: .4%
Nickel: .85%
Silicon: .25%
Manganese: .5%
Sulfur: .025%
Phosphorus: .025%

From what little I can find, 8670 is a steel that is used to cut other steels, but in today's knife industry, that doesn't tell you much as most "tool" steels such as A2 and many others are also used for machining and cutting other steels.

I currently own 5 Greco knives. I have probably owned about 4-5 others in the past that I have sold. I had an older fighter with about a 7inch blade that was made with A2. I know some of his older stuff was A2.
I owned two Whisper Fighters, but I didn't like the dual-guard tang extension on the top of the spine. I have sold both.

My current collection:





Top to bottom:
1) MST (8670)
2) Companion (8670)
3) Boot Knife (8670)
4) Full Flat Ground Boot Knife (52100)
5) Dangler Drop Point - Stainless, but don't know what kind of stainless (??????)

Without taking a picture of each one in my hand, I will just say that IMO and for my hands each and every knife in the above picture (regardless of oal and size) is very well "shaped" to fit my hands.


The Boot Knife and the "Full Flat Ground" Boot knife are pretty much identical.
Both Boot knives are available in both types of steel and their corrosponding thicknesses.
Otherwise, the only differences I see are different handle materials, different bolts and exposed lanyard hole.
For all I know, there is a lanyard hole under the scales of the Full Flat Boot knife (??????). The exposed bolt heads on the Full Flat Boot knife and the Dangler look like crap, but in all fairness - somehow they don't bother me in the hand.


I don't personally care for "all" of Greco's designs, but I do like the general designs and fit in my hand for all of the designs in the picture above. All of the handles are shaped very well for fit, comfort and secure grip in my hands. So, I consider that a big PLUS!

BUT!!!!!!!, with the very POORLY fitted scales and sharp exposed tang corners, the handles are not really comfortable in the hand to hold or use.

My honest opinion is that Greco's attention to detail and finish quality is VERY poor.
However, his basic designs are pretty darn good.

So, to me, they are very nice "Project" knives.

As poorly finished and poorly fitted "Project" quality knives. I don't feel I would pay full retail prices and I have been able to purchase most of my Greco's for below retail price on forums and ebay.

The scales are so poorly fitted and apparently intentionally under-sized, that a fair arguement could be made to just toss the scales and replace them.

However, if you want exposed tang, you could probably remove the scales (they are at least screwed on with Allen head screws), and work on the scales and tang to make it how you want. (??????????)

If you just want a good beater knife and don't mind the rough finish and can find a good deal or don't mind the price, these are good knives as they are - well with some edge work anyway. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

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Greco's edges are not very good. They are very obtuse and not very sharp. But, I am getting used to having to fix factory edges. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" />

The Greco edges that I have fixed now push cut very cleanly - So, they "can" be made very sharp!

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Greco apparently sprays some type of lacquer on his blades. I did some research and found this:

"Greco – Crib Safe – Lacquer Coating on Carbon Blades


Can apparently be found at Kmart, but I don't know for sure or where else (???)

It's apparently a product called :

DUTCH BOY fresh look Lacquer
Clear gloss #S7019

Quote from bladeforums: "Hint : Heat the blade slightly with a hair dryer or heat gun between coats. It just works better that way. Also make sure you apply it at room temperature. And don’t leave the can out in the cold shop then try to use it."

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In regards to function: Yes, I would say many of Greco's designs lean more towards fighting than survival. But, IMO, all of the blades in the above picture are somewhat fighter, but with very good "task" and chore" cutting abilities. They are not so great for batoning and wouldn't be my first choices for survival. But, (if worked on a little), they feel great in the hand and should handle a pretty wide variety of cutting tasks pretty well.

I don't tend to find too much issue with the swedges on most any knife unless batoning is needed.
The more common issue I see with a swedge on most knives - especially thick knives with not very tall blades is the angle of the primary grind being pretty obtuse. The little boot knife is almost a slightly sharpened 5-sided spike! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
.........7-sided spike if you count the thick edge sides. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

....... not the best for slice cutting, but tough like a DMCG.

These knives are so thick that even with a swedge there is still a fairly thick flat on the spine for batoning.



But, still not an ideal tool for batoning.

The MST has pretty reasonable proportions IMO with it's size (5.75" blade; 10.75" oal) vs. 0.200" thick blade.
But, while still functional in a DMCG type manner, the smaller Companion and even smaller Boot knives are pretty darn thick for their size.

The Dangler is better for cutting with it's thinner blade.
* Side note: I don't care for a "Clip On" dangler sheath. - rattles and flips around and such.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" />
The sheaths are not fancy, but functional. I would think the dangler clip could be removed and a simple piece of leather attached for a more traditional pouch style sheath function.

I would think the folder with only 3.25" blade would be a little thicker than I would prefer with 3/16" (0.1875") - 0.200 thick blades <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> (????) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> That folder would have a STOUT blade..... and apparently not very long at 3.25".

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I have never owned a Greco folder. I have read a few reviews with more in depth than Rainwalkers that pretty much coincide and support what Rainwalker generally stated: Action is rough, but heavy duty tank of a folder.

Having owned a number of his fixed blades, I would think this to be the case. Built like a tank and I would assume action to be rough as hell. But, if you have the mind to do some tinkering, I have found that most folders can be made to function smoothly with some know-how and work.
Personally, I like my folders to be super smooth.

From his web-site, I can't determine what the folder's scales are made of, but it says "Liners are powder coated". If by liners, he is referring to the scales - I am not sure about what I would think of a powder coated scales (??????). - Makes me wonder if the scales are steel as well. If so, that is one VERY heavy folder! (*** Jeff - any input on the folder scales???)

Greco's web-site says his Whisper folder uses 3/16" 8670 steel. But, all of his other 8670 blades are .200" and his 52100 is 3/16" - so, I am not sure about the steel and thickness.... something sounds different there (?????).
But, either 3/16" (0.1875") - 0.200" is MASSIVE thickness in the blade for a folder.

I don't know what to think about Greco's folder, but I think I will keep my RUKUS! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />



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In regards to the Byron knives:

I don't think Byron was a very well known in the knife making industry.
I am under the impression their background involves cutting, shaping, heat-treating and processing steel parts for other commercial industry uses ( * Maybe some other knife-makers ????? speculation on my part ?????) and they may have just felt like tinkering with a few knife projects of their own on the side (????????) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Byron Knives made two knives designed by Allen Elishewitz:

Lightning Strike - 5.5" blade (I measure at about 5.85" from scale to tip) 10.5" oal

and

Lightning Strike II - 4.0" blade (I measure at 4.375" from scale to tip) 9.125" oal


Here are Two Lightning Strikes with different handles, the Benchmade Nimravus 140 designed by Elishewitz and the Lighting Strike II:



I honestly think the Byron knives are much nicer than the Benchmade Nimravus and that Benchmade Nimravus is quite popular.

From pictures of Byron's other designs, I don't think I have any interest, but the two Elishewitz designed knives are outstanding sleepers in the knife world.

The designs are VERY good. The fit and finish is very good. Feel in the hand is Excellent. Blade shapes are both very functional for a wide range of uses IMO. Both knives are quick and nimble in the hand. Very agile and maneuverable in the hand. The thumb recess is excellent for my hands with very good tactile feeling notches.



Very nice in hand:




Byron knives clearly uses CNC type machinery for precision control. And they clearly put typical or better "factory" level of finish quality in there knives.



The Byron sheaths are just simple slim-padded nylon sheaths, but functional and good .... for nylon sheaths. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I really like the feel in the hand and over-all designs of both of the Byron Lightning Strike models.


Greco knives have a lot going for them, but they are "Project" knives in my book.





........ ask a simple question. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />




.

His hand axes look pretty decent, but like his knives, I don't think I would pay his retail for one.


.......... something very familiar looking about the blade finish here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> :





.... a little feature I would be happy to not have to deal with though.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


.

I totally agree with you KG on John's fit and finish, they do leave a little to be desired, But considering the prices you can get them for, not retail, but the prices you find on Fleabay for example make his knives decent users. I paid about half of retail for the folder I have, so I'm pretty pleased with it, although I rarely carry it. Too many other to choose from... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I may get a Hatchit one of these days if I see one at a good price, but I don't need it. I have a Ratchet and now a Crash Axe, among many others of other brands so I'm in good shape. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Sharp, I'll try to dig the folder out and take a couple of pics of it.

Awesome Review. It was pretty much what I hoping for and more.

From your detailed review his knives are much like Carillo of Airkat knives. Airkat knives are HT and machined by some other company and sent to Carillo to be sharpened (poorly I might add, too) However Carillos fit and finish is decent.

I've decided that maybe I shouldn't go for one of his fix blades but the folder instead.


+1231231 on the Rukus. I love the Rukus.

The folder scales are odd as the complete scale, including the pivot, area is coated. I'm sure that's why the action is so rough. To make it smooth, you'd have to take the complete knife apart, uncoat the "inside" of the scale, polish it, and place everything back. I'm not sure I want to go through that.

I've also seen/heard (mainly heard) that some of this Whisper folders actually have a thickness of .25 (I think these could have been previous models). The thickness was the main reason why I wanted to get one. Folding pry-bar, who the hell doesn't want to break one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

On the Byron knives,

At first glance I immediately noticed some sort of Elishewitz influence. The entire knife itself resembled much of an Elishewitz. Of course because of that, I can understand why they would be so comfortable. I would be interested in trying one of those out, one day. I currently have the Aluminum handled 140 and it is by far one of the most comfortable scaled knives I have ever held.



I guess by now, I'd be more interested in the Byron Knives. They definitely wouldn't be on part with the any of the Buss knives in terms of ultimate survival, but they do seem to serve the 'bushcraft' category of knives perfectly. You also forgot the thickness of the Byrons. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Also, thank you very much for the review. I really did enjoy it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

The Byron knives - all 3 that I have - measure at right between:

0.150" - 0.151" thick.


The Byron knives are definitely more of a Bushcraft knife - both of them.

They are very comfortable.

In my mind, a good Bushcraft knife is going to be VERY versatile. I think these Byron knives are pretty good there.

No - they don't compete with Busse, Scrap Yard or Swamp Rat in toughness.

The difference between Bushcraft and "ultimate survival" is probably more about mind-set and approach to survival and how you use your tools - to effectively be trying to attain the same goal - survival.

A Bushcraft mentallity will take a smaller tool and make it do "bigger" tool work without overly stress the tool. You just learn a few tricks to "make" a less heavy duty tool act like a larger tool with less stress on the tool. Things like bending a tree and cutting the tree at the bend instead of "chopping", Breaking dry limbs instead of chopping (try wedging dead limbs in between two stout limbs or small trees for leverage to break), etc. etc. Less work for the knife = less stress on the knife = more ability to depend on the long term function of your knife, etc.

I have said before, I will say again: chopping is "more" for fun and sport than need.

There are "Often" times when a big heavy duty knife will EASILY perform better for many tasks when it is an option. But, for many people in many cases, it is not practical to tote around a big honkin' 10" DFCG or BM or BR. So, knowing how to utilize a knife such as a RMD or DM or SS4 or HRLM, or many great 4" - 6" bladed knives is a great knowledge.

For the record, I would argue that these smaller Scrap Yard and Swamp Rat knives can be great for Bushcraft.

A 3.5" bladed folder can be a great survival tool if you know how to use it and don't exceed it's limits. If you exceed a tools limits and break the tool, it isn't very good anymore. Know what a folders "weakest link" is - Sometimes the blade, sometimes the handle, sometimes the pivot.

You can baton some folders, but you need to know which folders can handle what and where to whack and how hard.

If using a lesser knife, don't try to baton a little knife blade all the way through a heavy branch against the grain. You might have to baton out chips like a mini axe. If batoning with grain, know how to use rock and other sticks as wedges, etc.

There is more than one way to get the jobs done.

Your "ultimate survival" and many other peoples view on what an "ultimate Survival" knife needs to do is along the lines of a knife being able to chop down trees, take batoning with a stones, chop through concrete, pry open car doors, etc.


Don't get me wrong, I "don't" intend to down-play the value of a knife that can take "Anything" and everything it could possibly used to do, need to do, thrown at it, etc.

But, I tend to think "most people" don't tend to realistically need to be able to pry open a car door or chop up rocks to survive - * .. "In the wilderness".

*** Survival in Iraq and certain other situations is likely very different!

Some cases, you justify carrying the load!


.

I do think some of Greco's knives have a worthy value (* I own a few <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) - But, I agree, they are only worthy "IF" you can buy them at a good price on the secondary market! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

40% - 50% of retail is about right. MST and Companion for about $50 - $60 range.
Boot knife around $40 - $50. Dangler about $35 - $40 is about all I justify - and then a fair amount of "Fix-Up". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I am not personally convinced Greco's folder is my thing.

Ha! In OUR state parks, those of us with permits can carry our handguns; openly or concealed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Again, very well put. Now to slice down some of the meat and eat it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


This is very true. Big Choppers such as the FBM, BR, CGDF, are all extremely impractical in a real survival situation. The main problem is that they take a lot of energy to use. A little bit of energy in a survival situation can go a long ways.

Cloak and I have had our fun of chopping with our RTAKs and FBM, but the Saws on the leatherman worked equally well, worked quietly, and took a lot less energy.

I guess as we advanced in our knowledge of the woods we slightly changed our mentality.

Though, don't get me wrong, we still love chopping stuff. For me (maybe Cloak, too) it's the only exercise I can get for now.


I guess here we would be looking at the 12" range blades from The Yard. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Man I wish I had a Yard Guard


True. Cloak and I, as you all know, have had our fair share of batoning with a folder.

I can vouch that the Rukus, locked in open position, can be batoned (through a 5" thick branch) without failure.

dude, theres no way you got a folder through a 5" diameter branch. (which in an earlier post you said was "hardwood")
we need pics as proof!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
lol

(I actually wouldn't put it past a beast of a folder like that)

Jeez, jeez, jeez, am I that dishonest? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

The wood was hard, it was cherry wood... which is a hard wood. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

I'll get some pics, don't you worry.

yes it worked!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

What worked?