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Re: Dogfathers performance [Re: Horn Dog] #138580 10/08/07 07:27 PM
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din Offline
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so pretty, vic. nice job on the strip!

Re: Dogfathers performance [Re: diceman] #138581 10/08/07 07:42 PM
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KnifeGuy Offline
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Quote
Prime example of a BM biting a little "too well."

It chopped like a monster, though! I don't have enough experience to say whether or not I'd rather have it bite deep and hang up, or bit a little less deep and be extremely comfortable... Probably the later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRv4nBhQMvo&NR=1


I don't have a ton of experience cutting and chopping with knives, but I have done a significant amount of chopping with axes, mauls, and wedges.

I ASSURE you that a sharp edge that bites deep and clean is WAY more preferrable than an overly obtuse and/or dull edge that doesn't bite clean and deep.

It isn't that hard to un-wedge most blades if and when they rarely get wedged when "chopping" the type of wood that you would generally use such a knife for. - Especially referring to cross-grain cutting.


Where you can have problems with a knife is when you use it to "split" wood - "with grain" splitting. - Such as battoning.

You need to know how to read the wood and look out for knots when battoning.

Knots are usually associated with where any significant limb was (either recently or a stump from a limb from long ago).

If you try to split or batton a blade into such a knot, you will likely have the blade get VERY well stuck in a piece of wood! And it really doesn't matter if the edge is sharp, dull, well convexed, obtuse or other.

Although, sometimes a sharp edge can actually cut through the knots. It depends. But, I generally wouldn't recommend trying.

Some knots can be so tough that you can easily risk beating the knife too severly to get the blade through or out.

I grew up doing a whole lot of wood splitting for firewood. We didn't buy our firewood. We went out and fell dead trees with chain-saws, limbed them, and cut them into fireplace sized logs. Most of the smaller logs were 12" - 20" in diameter and needed to be split into 4 - 12 pieces or so.

We often used an 8 - 12 lb. maul for splitting. But, some pieces needed a wedge and 8 - 12 lb. sledge. We often had to use multiple wedges to relieved jambed wedges.

**** Similarly, if you get your knife edge stuck in a wedged position when batoning, consider using a large stone or similar wedge that you can wedge above the blade to wedge the wood further apart enough to loosen and get your blade out. Don't just keep beating your blade senseless to get it out.

If you have ever done a lot of wood "splitting", you know what I am talking about.

Bottom line: There is an ideal balance for edge geometry for efficient cutting vs. edge toughness. If the edge is of similar sharpness, full convex has usually been best for me. But, there are still many variables in angles for "convex".

You want it to cut clean and deep, but not roll or chip.

It takes some practice and getting familiar with what different steels will do with different materials.

Some advice:

These steels are super tough and can chop through cinder blocks, but for the record, cinder blocks are MUCH softer than most common rocks.

If out in the woods or in your backyard or whatever, ideally you don't want to chop into the ground where rocks may be. Sometimes it looks like dirt, but there are rocks under-neath. Those rocks may not hurt the blade, but they will likely roll or ding the blade "edges". These types of dings can be fixed, but if you are in the woods, you might not be able to fix until you get home - so you have to live with a less than ideal edge. Plus, it just takes a lot more time to fix the edges than I personally care to spend my time doing. I would rather just protect my edge within reason.... Personally.

More advice:

Watch the first three videos all with the same knife: FFBM

In the 1st video with Justabuyer, you can clearly see the FFBM has a well convexed and sharp edge. The FFBM will flat out DO the job with that edge.

However, not trying to slam anybody here, but you can tell that neither Justabuyer nor Hogwash have much experience chopping wood. Notice how Justabuyer just generally chops at the same angle over and over. He is cutting plenty deep. Each cut has plenty of penetration. But, his technique is very ineffecient for chopping. Without clearing his chips by cutting at (somewhat) alternating angles, he keep re-cutting the same chips.

Then Hogwash just chops all over the place at a continuous 90 degree angle. Nuff said.

I doubt I am providing much new knowledge to most here, but since I was rather surprised at the (lack of) techniques used on those videos, .... I am mentioning this just in case....

Generally, you alter your angles to clear your chips. By clearing your chips, you can chop new wood instead of re-hacking the same chips over and over.

Notice in the 3rd video, Ban's "technique" is getting the job done WAY better. It isn't from swinging harder... although he clearly is in better .... uh... condition than others.... Ban's better performance is based mostly on better technique.

I will try to leave it at that.


Bottom line # 2: If the Dog Father were given a good sharp convexed edge, it will chop VERY well - I would argue that the Dog Father could literally be made to cut 10-15 times better than shown in the video if given a proper edge.

Tough steel is great, but if you want to chop with it, tough steel with a dull edge is relatively worthless (IMO). I can buy cheap crow-bars all day long.

I could go out in my garage and pull out any yard tool long enough to make a blade out of: shovel, hoe, rake, whatever and sharpen it to actually cut better than the dull edge shown on the Dog Father video.

You can clearly see that the Dog Father wasn't biting deep enough. It was literally only going about 1/8" - 1/4" deep with each heavy strike. Either because it was severly dull or because the secondary bevel was so thick that it was preventing decent penetration.

Good convexing and sharpening would make a WORLD of difference!!!

Because of the differences in edges, I feel the videos did more to show the benefits and deficiencies of various edge geometries and sharpness.
And very little to show which knives are good as choppers.

The Camp Tramp IS a great knife, but it is NOT a better chopper than the Dog Father - NO WAY if they had similar edges. But, because of it's custom convexed edge, the Camp Tramp spanked the Dog Father. There is no justification other than edge geometry and sharpness!


.

Last edited by KnifeGuy; 10/08/07 08:28 PM.

JYD #39 I prefer "SATIN" blades!!!
Re: Dogfathers performance [Re: KnifeGuy] #138582 10/08/07 07:43 PM
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Vic .... as someone who obviously has a lot of experience with both chopping and sharpening.... is one I am sure that can confirm my above comments.

Further, his recent re-convexing/reshaping/re-sharpening of his DM is pretty much the same.

The Bark River Bravo-1 has a better edge and cut better. But, after some work on the edge, the DM is starting to get close. It sounds like if Vic had some leather belt, some compounds and some more time, he could get the DM to cut as well as the Bravo-1 (???).

Last edited by KnifeGuy; 10/08/07 08:32 PM.

JYD #39 I prefer "SATIN" blades!!!
Re: Dogfathers performance [Re: din] #138583 10/08/07 07:48 PM
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Vic, that is still looking good!! Glad it wasn't me doing all that chopping with micarta, boy, that guys hands would have been buzzing after a minute or two...


JYD #3 Poor, but still dreaming of a sage and black SOD CG...
Re: Dogfathers performance [Re: Paul the Brit'] #138584 10/08/07 07:50 PM
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some people just don't know any better, paul. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Dogfathers performance [Re: din] #138585 10/08/07 07:52 PM
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Hehe!

Gotta love the DF, stupid good (comfy!) chopper! Dan did us a great service with that monster..


JYD #3 Poor, but still dreaming of a sage and black SOD CG...
Re: Dogfathers performance [Re: KnifeGuy] #138586 10/08/07 07:53 PM
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diceman Offline
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KG - good stuff - I only watched 4 videos, and they were all in the later part of the "list." I'll check out the first two. Thanks for the insight.


JYD#9
Re: Dogfathers performance [Re: diceman] #138587 10/08/07 07:57 PM
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diceman Offline
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Vic - she's a beauty!


JYD#9
Re: Dogfathers performance [Re: RajunCajun] #138588 10/08/07 08:44 PM
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Thanks for the links. Good stuff <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />



I would like to make an observation:

Chopping 2x4s on plywood over concrete creats a lot of bounce and lessening the bite. The bite would have been much more solid (deeper) had the 2x4 rested on say a piece of a log.


JYD#14 Do you need one, of course you do it's a knife and you like knives.....
Re: Dogfathers performance [Re: diceman] #138589 10/08/07 10:29 PM
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The only bowie I have that might out chop it is my convex edged Fatty!


Horned, dangerous, and off my medication.
Re: Dogfathers performance [Re: Horn Dog] #138590 10/09/07 12:05 AM
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hmmm. "Keep in mind that this is a brand spanking new bone stock DF with no edge touchup. I am sure a nice convex edge would have increased its potential by about at least 30-40%." doesn't the dogfather HAVE a convex edge?


JYD number 52.
Re: Dogfathers performance [Re: eatingmuchface] #138591 10/09/07 12:08 AM
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Wiggitty Offline
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very nice video. that's some sweet chopping action.


Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store, not a Government Agency. JYD.45
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