Post deleted by Horn Dog

I don't think that there is a "right answer". I would suspect that, if the book delves into "who" designated the Palestine a Jewish homeland, it would go into the rise of Zionism (probably Theodor Herzl) as a reaction to antisemitism in Europe. However, the root cause lies in the old Colonial view that European nations still held at the end of both WWI and WWII; they felt justified in carving up the rest of the world along arbitrary lines, with absolutely no consideration of the peoples already living there and in denial of global nationalistic movements. Their only considerations were preserving the old ideas of spheres of influence and monopolistic access to raw materials and markets.

Vietnam was another direct result of Colonialism -- France wanted her Indochina colony back at the end of WWII, and the US supported France to keep them from forming strong ties with USSR. When France couldn't hold Indochina as a colony, the US stepped in to prevent Communists from gaining control (that old Domino theory -- once again, a little bit of short-sightedness and bad intelligence goes a long way).

I always wondered why the conservative christian right in the US is so pro Israel, technically they are competitors. If one is right the other one must be wrong. The main prayer across the world regardless of faith would be: dear Lord ('s for our Hindus), please let my religion be the right one.

@Unsub
good answer.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by Horn Dog

I totally agree Horn Dog, because the blame game and tit for tat retribution is a zero sum game which by it's very nature means everybody loses. There are no good guys and bad guys.

On the Palestinian side there is the majority who just want to get on with their lives and have a safe place to raise their kids. If the fighters could totally win and get the jews to all go back to Europe(or wherever) they would be happy but they know that is no more realistic than all the white people leaving North America for the indians. They would be very happy to reach some sort of settlement where Israel stays at it's 1966 borders and Palestine becomes an autonomous self governing country and Israel quits executing them and running their country like a giant open air prison.

Unfortunatly they have a very vocal and powerful group of fanatics whos power grows every time the Israelis blow up a car full of kids and women to get the driver or bomb a house. These maniacs don't want peace they only want total victory and will derail any chance of peace.

On the Israeli side there is the majority who just want to get on with their lives and have a safe place to raise their kids. If somehow their fanatics won totally and got every arab to leave the entirety of Eeretz Israel and they could rebuild the temple Mount without starting WW3 they would be fine but they know that is not the least bit realistic. They would be thrilled to reach some sort of deal with the Palestinians so that Israel stays at her 1966 borders and and Palestine becomes an autonomous state that Israel is not responsible for and most importantly is not shooting rockets at them or sending suicide bombers into their cities.

Unfortunatly they to have a very vocal and powerful group of fanatics who's power grows every time a suicide bomber blows up a bus or a home-made rocket hits a house. These maniacs don't want peace only total victory and will try to derail any chance of peace.

Interestingly the very right wing Israeli government which used to have the total die hard support of these groups(they have lots of names and factions but for simplicity I will refer to them as the "Settlers")now totally hate the government for living up to their agreements and tearing down a bunch of illegal Jewish settlements(hence the term "settlers") which they were using as a way to take land from the arabs and add it to Israel. For a long time it had worked . They would occupy the land(usually a hill) ,shoot at any arab who came close and therbuy use their family as a means of making Israel bigger and closer to their dream of Eretz Israel. They did not get along with their arab neighbours<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
and their was lots of back and forth murders ,shooting etc. This was a HUGE impediment to the peace proccess(which was also the point. For a long time the Israeli army protected these settlements but recently has started shuting them down and forcibly removing the settlers. The Settlers went apeshit.


Israel has the most powerful political lobby in the US. Also just like the Irish who lived in the US were more in favour of the IRA than the Irish who lived in Ireland the Settler movement has a LOT of support in the US. Check out the political forum on BF if you want to find out more about them<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
So for a long time the US media and government considered the Israelis the good guys and the Palestinians the bad guys.

Myself I believe the Israelis who want peace and to not let their religion and hate get in the way are the good guys. I also believe that the Palestinians who
want peace and won't let their religion and hate get in the way are the good guys.

The bad guys are those on both sides who want to keep killing until they get what they want no matter how many on either side have to die. They are both just as bloodthirsty to their own people in getting what they want as they are to the enemy. Often they hate the people of their own religion who disagree with them more than they hate their enemy.

The people on both sides who have been struck hard by this war like those whos family have been killed by suicide bombers or the Israeli army are victims.
Those who hate for personal reason are not bad only damaged. Their are a lot on both sides. The fundamentalists are ruthless in exploiting them. The Palestinians have a lot more of their population damaged in this way just from being on the losing side and subject to living under an occupation. Being treated like a criminal and having to go through 5 or 6 checkpoints every day for your entire life can be as damaging as losing a loved one to a suicide attack. The Palestinians are also worse for ruthlessly using these people as weapons. Partly that is because that is one of their only means of revenge.

It is those fundamentalists on both sides who will coldly use that damaged person as cannon fodder that are the true bad guys.



Next time I will discuss ,GW ,the Christian right and why they think that getting involved in this nightmare is a good idea. The answer may surprise you!

Extra points for anyone who answers it first

Post deleted by Horn Dog

Hi guys, I think Bill's question has been answered so we should leave it at that. No need for the thread to transform into a long religious discussion as understandably, those can get quite passionate & heated.


Chris

Post deleted by Horn Dog

I completely understand not wanting to have this here. It is about as controversial as it gets. When we shut down the current events thread I made a joke about it.

I would like to say that I don't have any problem at all with fundamentalists. It is anyone who thinks their beliefs gives them the right to decide for others. That can just as easily(and often more so) be lefty intellectuals.

I have a ton of respect for people who live their lives as an example to others.
All the Christians fundamentalists I know personally have gone out of their way to to show that they don't judge me for my beliefs. They have ideals and actually follow them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />. I have actual become a lot more interest in fundamentalist Christianity as a path for myself based on the strength of character and positive attitude that these people show. The fact that the "bad guys" in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict happen to be fundamentalist muslim or jews is really immaterial. Instead it is the mindset that what they believe(in this case religion but could just as easily be animal rights etc)gives them the right to force people to do what they want.

I am sorry if it sounded like I was picking on fundamentalists. There is no simple term for "people who think they should be able to make everyone else in the whole world to do as they say".

More than answered Chris.

Wow. I was gonna say that Israel, the Jewish homeland, was set up following WW2.
My answer is way too short.

They made some nifty neeto conversions of Sherman tanks, which carried a 105mm gun in a redesigned turret.

I think "self-righteous" halfway covers it. maybe add in a little "imposing" Maybe even just go with "fascist".