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Re: Dumpster Mutt compared with a BlackJack Grunt [Re: Jim] #213544 04/10/08 03:43 PM
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KnifeGuy Offline
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I have a Grunt as well, but mine is an older one made with Aus8 from Seki Japan. I have no idea which is better because as mentioned earlier in this post there is VERY little worthy info yet known about the chinese 10cr17 steel being used.
In America, it would be a common assumption to be very skeptical about things being made in China. But, the reality is China is going through a HUGE economic revolution. Some items are still being made "Cheap". But, many things are being made to much higher levels of quality to help satisfy the higher demands of many more prosperous incomes in China these days. But, the "cost" is still way lower than things made in the U.S. or most other countries. As stated, for $20.00, I am confident that the Grunt is a steel. I paid more for my Seki Grunt. I have had mine for 3 years or so and probably paid closer to $50.00. Even for $50.00, I consider it a great knife. But, I don't know how the Seki version compares to the China version.

It sounds like the China versions have the same very sharp full convex edge out of the box. If so, that is almost worth $20.00 alone!

I LOVE a good sharp well profiled convex edge from the factory!!!

In regards to "stropping" on cardboard. For hair shaving sharp, stropping is the key. I use a belt sander for mainly getting the profile set. Then depending on the knife, I might do a number of different methods to finish the edge - including stropping to get hair shaving sharp.

Most factory knives including Busse and kin come with a "functional" cutting edge. But, most any edge can be improved with a good profile and stropping.

When profiling an edge, you need to keep in mind what you are using the knife for. If it is going to be used for heavy chopping and such, the angle needs to be more obtuse to help prevent edge chipping or easy edge rolling.
If the knife is only for cutting, you can take the profile a little narrower. Different types of steel and different levels of steel hardness handle abilities for narrow profiles differently as well - So, often knowledge of steel AND experimenting is required.

If the knife is for chopping, I don't feel it is worth the time and effort for much stropping. But, if you have a good smaller task/chore knife that you use primarily for cutting tasks, a stropped edge to hair popping sharp is an addictive joy.

I typically profile with my knives with the belt sander and about 220 grit belts. I have been wanting to get other grits and a leather belt for my sander, but I have been wanting to upgrade my sander and my upgrade will be to different sized belts - so I haven't wanted to spend the money on belts until I get a new belt sander. However, for now, I have been doing pretty darn good with 220 grit on my 1"x30" sander.

I have a couple of differet "bar" type compounds that work VERY well and surprisinbly fast.

But, to answer the question about cardboard: Yes, Cardboard is Excellent for that final touch. Cardboard or similar rough paper like grocery bag paper or semi-rough post cards, magazine insert cards, some sheet paper or envelopes even if no seem in the way - all work at removing the final little micro burrs on an edge. Stropping with these materials can take the final step from draw cutting paper pretty well to push cutting paper really well!

BUT, you can't get an edge profiled or fix a lot of edge work with cardboard. You have to have a pretty good edge already and use cardboard as "Touch up".

Since the Grunt already comes from the factory with a good edge, I am sure Ken Warner is only referring to maintaining the factory edge with touch up stropping on cardboard. From time to time, you will probably need to do some more tweaking on the edge with more agressive belts.

There is a "catch" with convex edges: good convex edges are not "really" compatible with stones and most of the sharpening "jigs" on the market.
Conversely, flat edges are not "really" very compatible with strops (for most people).
But, personally, I am a huge advocate of convex edges. I could write a lot more about convex edges and what I consider advantages, but I would probably double or triple this post and I don't have time for that.

Bottom line: Flat angled blade edges can and do cut well. Spyderco makes some of the best factory sharp edges I have seen and they are flat. The jig Spyderco sells also makes flat edges. So, if you want flat edges, get a good jig because it is hard to maintain flat by hand. At some point, if you sharpen by hand on stones, you start to convex the edge anyway. But, again, a stone is not ideal for convexed edges. So, if you are going to have convexed edges, figure out how to do it best.

Once you figure out how to do it and have a few basic tools for setting and touching up profiles and some stropping tools, I find it much easier and faster than stones and stone type jigs. But, this may just be a personal preference.

For the record, a cheap 1"x30" belt grinder and a handfull of belts, including a leather strop belt or flat leather strop and some compounds can "EASILY" cost less than a "decent" sharpening jig and "decent" stones. Good quality water stones are VERY expensive! You can have a NICE belt sander like a Kalamazoo by the time you pay for good water stones.


Instead of me writing a bunch of thoughts on sharpening, I recommend doing some research especially on Knifeforums, but also Bladeforums.

Here is a good start:

Sharpening My Way - by Jerry Hossom

----------------

In regards to the Grunt vs. DM vs. RMD:

For my uses, I still prefer the RMD quite a bit followed by the DM 2nd. But, if considering price, the Grunt is an ABSOLUTE STEAL!!!! Every now an then, you might want a less expensive beater knife. Stainless steel is better for keeping in the car and such. (* I have said this before, but knives kept in cars are subject to temperature and humidity changes that cause moisture to condensate on steel causing rust. Carbon steel knives in leather sheaths in a car is almost as good a recipe for rust as leaving a carbon steel knife in a mud puddle for a few days.)

For a smaller knife, the Grunt offers a reasonable amount of chopping that a bunch of you guys like. The Grunt won't out-chop the S6, but it should out-chop the DM or RMD.
However, the Grunt is not as nimble for certain task uses as a DM or RMD.


.


JYD #39 I prefer "SATIN" blades!!!
Re: Dumpster Mutt compared with a BlackJack Grunt [Re: KnifeGuy] #213545 04/10/08 05:22 PM
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eatingmuchface Offline
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cardboard DOES work.
especially if you use some stropping compound on it.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


JYD number 52.
Post deleted by Private Klink [Re: KnifeGuy] #213546 04/10/08 05:22 PM
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Re: Dumpster Mutt compared with a BlackJack Grunt [Re: eatingmuchface] #213547 04/10/08 06:49 PM
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KnifeGuy Offline
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Quote
cardboard DOES work.
especially if you use some stropping compound on it.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Yeah..... that's kind of what I was trying to say. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


JYD #39 I prefer "SATIN" blades!!!
Re: Dumpster Mutt compared with a BlackJack Grunt [Re: KnifeGuy] #213548 04/10/08 06:54 PM
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eatingmuchface Offline
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oh yeah...
sorry. I didn't get to read that whole post.
and I just kind of chimmed in.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


JYD number 52.
Re: Dumpster Mutt compared with a BlackJack Grunt [Re: itxploded] #213549 04/10/08 07:35 PM
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Quote
Quote

"Your edge...keep it sharp by stropping it backwards on cardboard or leather. Restore dull or nicked edge same way with wet-or-dry paper, finish on cardboard. This works!"
does this method really work?what is wet dry paper?

itxploded,

The main reason Ken probably recommends "wet/dry" paper is because of the finer grits available. At a typical hardware store, you will usually only find sandpaper for woodworking - usually: 80, 100, 150, 220, 320, 400 or so.

At "Auto Parts" stores, they sell wet/dry paper - meaning it can be used wet or dry. It is often sold in very fine grits because auto paint refinishing and touch up requires much finer grits than woodworking. Paint touch up and refinishing is usually done with "Wet" sanding for smoother and finer results.

Wet/dry paper comes in 600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000 and sometimes you can find 2500 grit sandpaper.

*But, these finer grit sandpapers from the auto parts stores tend to be many times more expensive than woodworking sandpaper from the hardware stores.

For the record, you can accomplish a LOT with 220, 320 and 440 grit sandpaper on knives.

For knives, you don't need to "wet" the paper regardless of what paper you use. The "wetting" is usually done if polishing paint, lacquer or similar. I don't think wetting the paper buys you anything with steel.


Stropping with "compounds" on leather is MUCH cheaper in the long run that buying the fine 600 - 2500 grit paper at auto parts stores.

*** Compounds on leather strop (IMO) is also much BETTER than fine grit sandpaper.

A small package of 5 "half" sheets of fine paper costs about $3.00 - $5.00. But, "worse" - the fine grit papers don't last very long. So, they can get expensive fast.

You don't really need to use so many different grits.

I didn't finish in my earlier long post (got side-tracked), but I do a lot of profiling with 220 grit on my belt sander and have had GREAT success just using two different compounds on strop followed by final touch up strop on med. coarse types of paper (similar to cardboard). Hairs will pop.


If doing it all by hand, I would think 220, 320, 400 followed by 1-2 different compounds on strop followed by final touch up on cardboard or similar would result in outstanding edges well beyond what most people achieve with stones.

Most people who use stones don't have a sufficient variety of good stones for good results. The good fine grit water stones are very expensive. I have much easier, faster and better luck than when I have tried stones.

I use the green and black compounds I bought from DLT: Compounds @ DLT

The white is very fine. I haven't used it, but I don't know that I need it either.

The green is the best IMO. It is finer than the black. If just maintaining a good edge, green is probably going to be used most often. But, if using 220 belts or paper, I follow with black prior to green.

Cardboard (or similar paper) after green has been VERY good.

A lot of people use the white on leather on a belt sander after 220 if only power stropping.


This video has been posted a bunch, but it is good to watch: Quick & easy knife sharpening - J. Neilson

Best tip for most common error I have seen: don't roll up on the tip of the edge too much when drawing the blade across a strop.

*** Again, said many times, but anybody going down the road to a belt sander needs to "PRACTICE" on cheap blades for a good while before going to a good blade.

If not careful, a belt sander can heat up the blade too much and hurt the temper. But, also, the belts "can" remove material VERY fast on edges. If not careful, you can not only re-profile your edges, but also reshape the entire blade - without experience, that can get ugly and bad very fast. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

For hand sharpening, I haven't tried this yet, but keep reading great stuff about the supplies from Hand American. Hand American is selling their stuff here: Hand American Products @ Japanese Knife Sharpening

Those little bottles of wet or dry compound are easier to apply than the stick compounds. There are lots of tips and tricks about using the different types, but you don't need much. It should never be clumpy. Light and thin.

I am not so sure about the thin films on glass. I think those are best for razors and very thin edged kitchen knives. I don't think they will work right for convexed outdoors knives - too flat. But, the compound on leather should be very good. I keep reading good things about the horse-hide being great for final strop without compound.

Here is a thread about the Hand American "Scary Sharp kit": Scary Sharp System
*** Keep in mind a lot of the discussion is about kitchen knives. Field knives typically need a little thicker and more obtuse edges than kitchen knives. But, some of the principle info about sharpening, stropping and that kit is still good.

Side note: This stuff should be good for carbon blade protection along with treating fuzzy micarta and cutting boards: Boardwax w Mineral Oil

.... I still like RenWax, but some people like mineral oil.

Again, in regards to belt sanding, power stropping, hand stropping, etc. I recommend doing some research. For this subject, I have found Knifeforums to have a little bit more and better info than Bladeforums.

Also, use a "Google" advanced search. Knifeforums search engine SUCKS! Just go to Google, click advanced. At the bottom, put in a "specific web-site" such as knifeforums.com , then put in your key words at the top such as: strop, stropping, compound, or similar.




............ We need to start and put this info on a sharpening and stropping thread! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.


JYD #39 I prefer "SATIN" blades!!!
Re: Dumpster Mutt compared with a BlackJack Grunt [Re: eatingmuchface] #213550 04/10/08 07:38 PM
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oh yeah...
sorry. I didn't get to read that whole post.
and I just kind of chimmed in.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

My comment was intended to be a joke/poke at my wordiness vs. your simple direct answer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Part of the problem with my wordiness is exactly what you pointed out - a lot of people don't want to bother reading my long winded posts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/paperbag.gif" alt="" />


...... I apparently try too hard to provide too much info. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/loopy.gif" alt="" />


JYD #39 I prefer "SATIN" blades!!!
Re: Dumpster Mutt compared with a BlackJack Grunt [Re: KnifeGuy] #213551 04/10/08 07:43 PM
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Your posts are thorough , knifeguy. Yeah, that's the ticket. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I learn a lot from your long posts, as do many others here.


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Re: Dumpster Mutt compared with a BlackJack Grunt #213552 04/10/08 07:56 PM
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KnifeGuy Offline
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Excellent post as usual, KG. I agree with your conclusion that the Grunt is an ABSOLUTE STEAL at $20.00 shipped.

I haven't put the DMDC and the Grunt to the test to determine which of them would outchop the other. I originally thought that the DMDC would do a better job of chopping because of its thicker blade and tougher steel. But the Grunt is a larger knife overall. So its possible that it could outchop the DMDC. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Actually, I was comparing the Grunt to the Thick .28" original DM.
The Grunt is not as thick, but mine weight about 1.5 - 2.0 more ounces than the super thick DM.

I assume the Grunt weighs about 3.0 - 4.0 ounces more than the DMDC (I don't have one...). But, I believe the Grunt would out-chop the original thick DM. So, I am pretty confident it should out-chop the thinner and lighter DMDC.

With more weight and a longer blade on the Grunt, there is just more weight in the blade for chopping and more reach.

I don't really view it as an apples to apples comparison. Although, aside from slight over-all size and weight differences, I think there are some similarities.

As far as type of steel, NO DOUBT, the DM and DMDC have tougher steel.
I am quite confident the Grunt would never "out-tough" a Scrap Yard.

But, there are a lot of steels that have been "reasonably" functional for chopping and certain tasks over the years. Only time and use will determine how worthy the Grunt is. I haven't done much with mine.

Both of the knives can be choked back on to help improve chopping. I can choke back two fingers with the pommel between my middle and ring fingers. This offers more whip and swing. But, the deeper bird's beak pommel on the Grunt offers a more secure grip for choking back for chopping.



Keep in mind, I don't consider "Either" knife a worthy chopper. But, both could de-limb "Twigs". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ..... Just the Grunt should de-limb slightly larger twigs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


.


JYD #39 I prefer "SATIN" blades!!!
Re: Dumpster Mutt compared with a BlackJack Grunt [Re: Horn Dog] #213553 04/10/08 07:58 PM
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Your posts are thorough , knifeguy. Yeah, that's the ticket. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I learn a lot from your long posts, as do many others here.

Thanks Vic... Yeah.. That's the ticket. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And my inherent goal. Glad it works for you. Some people don't have an interest - some do. So goes things.


JYD #39 I prefer "SATIN" blades!!!
Post deleted by Private Klink [Re: Horn Dog] #213554 04/10/08 08:01 PM
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Re: Dumpster Mutt compared with a BlackJack Grunt #213555 04/10/08 08:43 PM
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eatingmuchface Offline
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wow knifeguy... I TOTALLY missed the joke.
(I get it now though)\
lol...
you can see our differences.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
but I'm sure Logan learned ALOT more from your post than mine.
honestly I wish I got a detailed informative post every time I asked a question...
(which I ask too many of)
I hate those one liners sometimes.
then I end up asking so many questions to get what I really want to hear.

*oh and I just didn't read the whole post, cause I really kinda knew it worked... and I had to eat dinner.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


JYD number 52.
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