I wanted to post some info on a new thread that was getting lost on another thread.


I edited out some grunt stuff.....


-----------------



I LOVE a good sharp well profiled convex edge from the factory!!!

In regards to "stropping" on cardboard. For hair shaving sharp, stropping is the key. I use a belt sander for mainly getting the profile set. Then depending on the knife, I might do a number of different methods to finish the edge - including stropping to get hair shaving sharp.

Most factory knives including Busse and kin come with a "functional" cutting edge. But, most any edge can be improved with a good profile and stropping.

When profiling an edge, you need to keep in mind what you are using the knife for. If it is going to be used for heavy chopping and such, the angle needs to be more obtuse to help prevent edge chipping or easy edge rolling.
If the knife is only for cutting, you can take the profile a little narrower. Different types of steel and different levels of steel hardness handle abilities for narrow profiles differently as well - So, often knowledge of steel AND experimenting is required.

If the knife is for chopping, I don't feel it is worth the time and effort for much stropping. But, if you have a good smaller task/chore knife that you use primarily for cutting tasks, a stropped edge to hair popping sharp is an addictive joy.

I typically profile with my knives with the belt sander and about 220 grit belts. I have been wanting to get other grits and a leather belt for my sander, but I have been wanting to upgrade my sander and my upgrade will be to different sized belts - so I haven't wanted to spend the money on belts until I get a new belt sander. However, for now, I have been doing pretty darn good with 220 grit on my 1"x30" sander followed by stropping with compound on a leather strop. And then I final strop on med. coarse paper such as cardboard or similar.

I have a couple of differet "bar" type compounds that work VERY well and surprisinbly fast.

But, to answer the question about cardboard: Yes, Cardboard is Excellent for that final touch. Cardboard or similar rough paper like grocery bag paper or semi-rough post cards, magazine insert cards, some sheet paper or envelopes even if no seem in the way - all work at removing the final little micro burrs on an edge. Stropping with these materials can take the final step from draw cutting paper pretty well to push cutting paper really well!

But, you have to have a "GOOD" edge to begin with. Stropping a bad edge on cardboard isn't going to buy you much.
You can't get an edge profiled or fix a lot of edge work with cardboard. You have to have a pretty good edge already and use cardboard as "Touch up".

Since the Grunt already comes from the factory with a good edge, I am sure Ken Warner is only referring to maintaining the factory edge with touch up stropping on cardboard. From time to time, you will probably need to do some more tweaking on the edge with more agressive belts.

There is a "catch" with convex edges: good convex edges are not "really" compatible with stones and most of the sharpening "jigs" on the market.
Conversely, flat edges are not "really" very compatible with strops (for most people).
But, personally, I am a huge advocate of convex edges. I could write a lot more about convex edges and what I consider advantages, but I would probably double or triple this post and I don't have time for that.

Bottom line: Flat angled blade edges can and do cut well. But, IMO, a good convexed edge is a smoother cutting tool. Full convex blades are my favorite. But, a good convex edge on a flat grind is a reasonably close second.

Spyderco makes some of the best factory sharp edges I have seen and they are flat. The jig Spyderco sells also makes flat edges. So, if you want flat edges, get a good jig because it is hard to maintain flat by hand. At some point, if you sharpen by hand on stones, you start to convex the edge anyway. But, again, a stone is not ideal for convexed edges. So, if you are going to have convexed edges, figure out how to do it best.

Once you figure out how to do it and have a few basic tools for setting and touching up profiles and some stropping tools, I find it much easier and faster than stones and stone type jigs. But, this may just be a personal preference.

For the record, a cheap 1"x30" belt grinder and a handfull of belts, including a leather strop belt or flat leather strop and some compounds can "EASILY" cost less than a "decent" sharpening jig and "decent" stones. Good quality water stones are VERY expensive! You can have a NICE belt sander like a Kalamazoo by the time you pay for good water stones.


Instead of me writing a bunch of thoughts on sharpening, I recommend doing some research especially on Knifeforums, but also Bladeforums.

Here is a good start:

Sharpening My Way - by Jerry Hossom



.

2nd post carried over from the other thread:


---------------


itxploded,

The main reason Ken probably recommends "wet/dry" paper is because of the finer grits available. At a typical hardware store, you will usually only find sandpaper for woodworking - usually: 80, 100, 150, 220, 320, 400 or so.

At "Auto Parts" stores, they sell wet/dry paper - meaning it can be used wet or dry. It is often sold in very fine grits because auto paint refinishing and touch up requires much finer grits than woodworking. Paint touch up and refinishing is usually done with "Wet" sanding for smoother and finer results.

Wet/dry paper comes in 600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000 and sometimes you can find 2500 grit sandpaper.

*But, these finer grit sandpapers from the auto parts stores tend to be many times more expensive than woodworking sandpaper from the hardware stores.

For the record, you can accomplish a LOT with 220, 320 and 440 grit sandpaper on knives.

For knives, you don't need to "wet" the paper regardless of what paper you use. The "wetting" is usually done if polishing paint, lacquer or similar. I don't think wetting the paper buys you anything with steel.


Stropping with "compounds" on leather is MUCH cheaper in the long run that buying the fine 600 - 2500 grit paper at auto parts stores.

*** Compounds on leather strop (IMO) is also much BETTER than fine grit sandpaper.

A small package of 5 "half" sheets of fine paper costs about $3.00 - $5.00. But, "worse" - the fine grit papers don't last very long. So, they can get expensive fast.

You don't really need to use so many different grits.

I didn't finish in my earlier long post (got side-tracked), but I do a lot of profiling with 220 grit on my belt sander and have had GREAT success just using two different compounds on strop followed by final touch up strop on med. coarse types of paper (similar to cardboard). Hairs will pop.


If doing it all by hand, I would think 220, 320, 400 followed by 1-2 different compounds on strop followed by final touch up on cardboard or similar would result in outstanding edges well beyond what most people achieve with stones.

Most people who use stones don't have a sufficient variety of good stones for good results. The good fine grit water stones are very expensive. I have much easier, faster and better luck than when I have tried stones.

I use the green and black compounds I bought from DLT: Compounds @ DLT

The white is very fine. I haven't used it, but I don't know that I need it either.

The green is the best IMO. It is finer than the black. If just maintaining a good edge, green is probably going to be used most often. But, if using 220 belts or paper, I follow with black prior to green.

Cardboard (or similar paper) after green has been VERY good.

A lot of people use the white on leather on a belt sander after 220 if only power stropping.


This video has been posted a bunch, but it is good to watch: Quick & easy knife sharpening - J. Neilson

Best tip for most common error I have seen: don't roll up on the tip of the edge too much when drawing the blade across a strop.

*** Again, said many times, but anybody going down the road to a belt sander needs to "PRACTICE" on cheap blades for a good while before going to a good blade.

If not careful, a belt sander can heat up the blade too much and hurt the temper. But, also, the belts "can" remove material VERY fast on edges. If not careful, you can not only re-profile your edges, but also reshape the entire blade - without experience, that can get ugly and bad very fast. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

For hand sharpening, I haven't tried this yet, but keep reading great stuff about the supplies from Hand American. Hand American is selling their stuff here: Hand American Products @ Japanese Knife Sharpening

Those little bottles of wet or dry compound are easier to apply than the stick compounds. There are lots of tips and tricks about using the different types, but you don't need much. It should never be clumpy. Light and thin.

I am not so sure about the thin films on glass. I think those are best for razors and very thin edged kitchen knives. I don't think they will work right for convexed outdoors knives - too flat. But, the compound on leather should be very good. I keep reading good things about the horse-hide being great for final strop without compound.

Here is a thread about the Hand American "Scary Sharp kit": Scary Sharp System
*** Keep in mind a lot of the discussion is about kitchen knives. Field knives typically need a little thicker and more obtuse edges than kitchen knives. But, some of the principle info about sharpening, stropping and that kit is still good.

Side note: This stuff should be good for carbon blade protection along with treating fuzzy micarta and cutting boards: Boardwax w Mineral Oil

.... I still like RenWax, but some people like mineral oil.

Again, in regards to belt sanding, power stropping, hand stropping, etc. I recommend doing some research. For this subject, I have found Knifeforums to have a little bit more and better info than Bladeforums.

Also, use a "Google" advanced search. Knifeforums search engine SUCKS! Just go to Google, click advanced. At the bottom, put in a "specific web-site" such as knifeforums.com , then put in your key words at the top such as: strop, stropping, compound, or similar.

Bravo KG.
Thanks for the thread, I too love a convex grind, I even put one on my Spyderco E4W and it is very sharp. You can convert a knife with a flat ground edge into a convex grind very easily.

this thread should be a sticky.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
VERY informative for the people who want to know how to sharpen their scrapyards or learn convex sharpening.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the smileys EMF...

I didn't do it on purpose...
I don't know why I do it though!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
some knives just re-grind easily!
and then... convexing is fun...
if not...
!!!!

Thanks KG...funny you should mention this the very day my Kalamazoo 1x42 arrived AND I had just printed out the thread by Jerry Hossom. I'm going to take the plunge.

I had (have) concerns about over heating and drawing out the temper and also about the angle of the blade, or I should say edge to the belt. On the straight edge, (choil to beginning of belly) it appears fairly simple, but from the beginning of the belly around to the tip seems a little tricky. As I understand it the handle must be raised as you approach the tip or did I mis-read that? In as much as the blade geometry changes as you approach the tip, (i.e. wider toward the spine) it would seem that some correction is needed in the angle of attack from belly to tip. Is it correct to raise the handle as I described?

Thanks again for all the good stuff!

Cool Irony. I wish I had a Kalamazoo delivered .......... a few years ago <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Oh well, sometimes using the cheap stuff helps you appreciate the good stuff when you get it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> - Now all I want is a variable speed KMG or Bader. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

----------------------

*** Keep in mind guys, I am trying to help with this info, but I am sharing some things based on what "appears" to be the case in my limited experience. I have been tinkering with my cheapo belt sander for a few years now and I am getting the feel for it. But, I am night a professional knife-maker. I just do lots of modifications for my own personal use.

For the best advice, guys like Jerry Hossom are VERY knowledgable with many years of experience and he does well in trying to help others.

Vic and I are both self pro-claimed "hacks". But, I am sure Vic can jump in here and offer some advice as well.


While on the subjuct of advice:

- Use a mask and eye protection!

------------------

If I understand what you are saying and asking and assuming the belt rotation is down where you contact, the yes, you would want to be lifting up on the handle as you go around the belly to the tip.

From my experience, I don't know that you have to have an exact perpendicular angle to the blade, but close is better. What is more important is to have the same consistant motion. When you move the blade around the belt, it is not the end of the world to have an angle or two difference in one part of the blade vs. the other. But, if your movement of the blade around the belt is inconsistant, you will end up with an edge that is visibly not smooth or consistant. It can be made functional. But, the more times you go around trying to equalize the looks and angle of the blade, the more blade edge you will eat up.

AGAIN, you REALLY need to practice on some cheap blade. And ideally practice on a blade size and geometry similar to what you want to sharpen. So, a 3.0" semi-wharnecliffe can be very easy, but also very different from a 5" with lots of belly or a 10" recurve or whatever.

I have generally found the larger blades harder as they require more movement and more ability to stay consistant in your movement over a longer blade. Make sure you have room to move. I have also found that practicing a couple of "dry" movement passes without contact on the belt can help prepare for a fluid consistant movement. - Kind of like a basketball player warming up for a free throw without the ball - ever watch Steve Nash before he shoots a free throw - he practices the motion.

To keep from heating the blade too much - a few tips:

1) The thin edges heat up faster than thick spines. So, especially when sharpening, keep a steady movement and dunk in water after each pass.

2) New fresh belts cut cleaner and faster and seem to generate less heat than older worn belts. (* But, older belts can still have a lot of value.)

3) I am not sure, but it seems to me that coarser grits generate less heat than finer grits (????).

Good luck - practice on cheap blades first!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

I am digging up some of my older posts - much faster than typing more stuff. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Post from #162096 - Sat Jan 12 2008 02:14 AM http://www.scrapyardknives.com/ubbthread...true#Post162096


----------------------


I talked a buddy of mine into getting a VERY fine 1"x42 Delta belt sander that he received a couple of days ago. I just tinkered with it for a few minutes tonight - just starting to show him what his new sweet tool can do. I LOVE his new belt sander WAY more than my old 1"x30".

He doesn't collect knives, but I turned him onto home tinkering and wood-working projects a few years ago. He is finally catching up to me on his tool collection (even passing me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />). He won't need to borrow too many tools now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

But, check this sweet deal out: Delts 1"x42"

FREE Shipping!!!


At $129.00, most might consider it expensive, but once you get one, start using it, get a good selection of belts and get good with it, you realize it is money WELL spent! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


Here is an email I just sent to him with some good info:


Lee Valley Belts


I would probably pick up a variety pack at Lowes or Home Depot. The chain stores will usually have a variety pack with 3 grits that are good for "General" wood use and moderate metal removal. I think: 80, 120, 220 (???) or close.

If it were me, I would be getting the variety pack and grits you can get locally. It won't save you much, but maybe $0.25 - $0.75 or so per belt.

Then "I" would pick up one of each other grit from Lee Valley. - "I" would be picking up 3 leather belts, but for me they would be for putting razor edges on knives.

I have 2 strop compounds to put on leather belts. The 3rd belt would be left dry.
If you have an interest in VERY sharp blades, get at least one or two leather belts and some of this strop compound: BRKT Strop Compounds @ DLT



40 is VERY coarse and for VERY fast material removal. 80 is still very coarse. 40 - 150 are more for shaping than sanding.

220 starts to polish, but will still shape some. 320 will start to put a satin polish, but at belt sander speeds, it can still shape some.

The leather belts loaded with strop compound really start to put a mirror polish edge.

The tricks with belts on knife edges is to 1st practice a lot on CHEAP steel.

2nd through 7th, etc.:

2) Get a feel for different grits,

3) Proper and different angles,

4) Proper pressure for different steels, angles, materials, etc.,

5) Movement of blade across belt and

6) Feel for heat buildup. *** Don't over-heat blades especially at the edge. The edges will heat faster

7) Use of platen for flat grinds and use of slack belt (no platen) for convex grinds


*** Don't take a "good" or expensive knife out and grind on it to you get a feel for the things above.



With proper belts and grits, "Good" knives can be made to split hairs (Literally)

See: INFI splitting hairs


Alton Brown is actually pretty well respected in the Knife Industry and goes to some of the large knife shows.
This video (Good Eats / Alton Brown) - Alton has some pretty good general advice. - Although, there is more, this is a good start <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Alton has someone sharpen his knives and discusses

Here is a good starter for knife sharpening: J. Neilson sharpening with Belts - J. Neilson is a fairly respected custom knife maker. He uses 220 grit. Most people use a little finer prior to leather with compound, but as he says, he wants the edge a little "Toothy". "Toothy" would be like "Micro" serrations. They work well for slicing motions (think mini hack-saw). Some material cuts better with slicing motions. Sometimes a fine smooth edge is better - depends.


I don't recommend this following technique, as it is hard to get a decent edge and a little dangerous, but kind-of cool: Sharpening the hard way - Lots of Skill, but bad edge still <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


After you get the the right belts and the hang of it, you won't want sharpening stones. And you will want to sharpen everything <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



---------

Oh yeah, that belts sander is great for wood stuff too!!




--------------------------------------


Post from same thread: #162097 - Sat Jan 12 2008 02:28 AM



Invest in a good belt sander, some good belts including at least one or two leather belts and some strop compounds. See above! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />
Even one of the cheap $40 - $45 1"x30" belt sanders like Vic, J33ps, myself and a BUNCH of other guys have will get a lot of work done. But, that 42 incher sure is SWEET!


Either way, you will be VERY glad! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Go straight to a good system and skip over all the hassles of all the other stuff - stones, oil, water, Lansky, Sharpmaker, etc.

Some of these can get the job done, but a belt system is fast and VERY good if you know how.

Or, I could sell you my EZE sharpening system ( EZE Sharp Also see: Ian's EZE Sharpening Thread at Swamp Rat forum ). The EZE Sharp system seems to be the best large stone fixed angle system you can buy. ..... But, I would much rather use my belt sander! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.



.

*** Don't use Benchtop "Grinders" with stone type wheels. They turn at WAY high speeds and generate WAY too much heat. They will trash knife blades almost instantly.

See: Question about a Bench Grinder

Here is a crazy long post <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> - mostly about stripping blades, but with some info and pics of some of the nice knife making/grinding/sharpening tools:


From: #147498 - Mon Nov 19 2007 03:28 PM Stripping the coating


-------------------------


In regards to stripping your blade:

Removing the coating is VERY easy if you use a chemical stripper. There are quite a few brands that will do the job.

I use a gel type from Jasco. You can find a chemical stripper just about anywhere they sell paint: Home Depot, Lowes, Sears, Wal-Mart....

I just use a cheap hobby brush and brush the gel on thick, let sit for about 10-15 minutes till it bubbles and scrape off with a putty knife. Very easy.

If a couple of spots don't come off, put some more stripper on for a few more minutes.

I actually just wash my brush and re-use the brush. If you just brush on what you need, a quart of stripper will probably strip 40 - 60 knives or so (????).


There are lots of posts here, on Swamp Rat Forum, Bladeforums and similar that go into more detail.

So, instead of me retyping a lot of the little details:


See:


Stripping My Howler - Pics of process


Bladeforums - What is the best way to strip Crinkle Coating?


Bladeforums - How does a stripped Swamp Rat knife do?


------

Vic had a nice post: Tutorial: Stripping & Polishing Pics

......... But, the pics are gone.


The above posts should give you enough info to get you through the simple stripping process and into sanding.


*** But, you should know that as I keep saying: stripping the coating is the easy part - However, Satin finishing the blade is MUCH more time consuming.

"HARD" is a subjective term. With some practice, I could say it isn't terribly hard, but still time consuming.

The key word I see in your post is: by "Hand"

Are you planning to sand the blade to a nice satin finish literally by hand with sandpaper?

If so, you are talking about many hours of work.

If you think you will strip multiple knives and/or if you do other home projects AND if you are pretty good with hand tools and safety conscious:

Then, I highly recommend ("Considering") investing in a 1"x30" belt sander.
A belt sander is WAY faster than sanding by hand.

Harbor Freight sells this for $29.99



See: Harbor Freight - Belt Sander

Home Depot, Lowes and Sears usually seem to have a Delta brand or similar for close to $40 - $50.


----------------------------

*** Sanding on sharp knives can be dangerous! Sanding a sharp knife on a fast rotating belt can be more dangerous!


----------------------------


Most knife makers basically use belt sanders to make knives. But, they do most of the work prior to sharpening the blade and sharpen last!

For the record, most professional knife-makers have much better suited belt-sanders with specialized shaped and sized wheels.

But, the 1"x30" sanders can do a LOT and are MUCH cheaper than the professional 2"x48" or 2"x72" models costing $500 to well over $1000.

----------

However, for the fun of it, here are some of the toys the Pros get to play with (maybe someday......):

KMG1 with custom mods (KMG stands for Knife Makers Grinder)





















See full link: Caffreyknives.net - KMG with mods


Some people use Bader: Bader grinders

Burr King and many other custom grinders.

Here is a pretty cool "Rotary Platen attachment":

See: BeaumontMetalworks.com - rotary platen

Many of these grinders have variable speed.


------------------------


Here are just a couple of links from YouTube that are pretty good:


Blade Grinding on a Burr King

These don't have much to do with knives, but show the KMG grinding and a few tricks (appears to be making a bike frame or something):


KMG - Belt Grinder Demo part 1

KMG - Belt Grinder Demo part 2


------------------------------

******************************

**** This following video may be a great help to some:

Knife Sharpening with a Belt sander by J. Neilson



This video gives some good tips for final blade satin finishes:

Cleaning up the hand-rubbed finish on a blade - J. Neilson


----------

However, back to belt sanders, regardless of type of belt sander, it takes some practice!!!

Your first few attempts will likely not be very pretty. I am not just saying this. Many knife-makers have suggested people practice on cheap pieces of steel first to get a feel for using a belt sander.


*** Also, don't over-heat the blades. You can mess up the heat treatment - temper.



----------------

Vic had a potentially good suggestion in his Tutorial post in the above link.
...... Assuming you really want a high quality finish down to the little details....

Vic mentions drilling out the rivets.

I have never tried it because I didn't know of a good solution for putting rivets back. I still don't have the details worked out, but I am piecing together how this might be accomplished.

I feel (personally) it would be too big a hassle to send the knife back to Busse to have the scales riveted back on my knife.

And I don't feel it would be worth the effort and hassle for a knife with Res-C handles. At least the Res-C handles have a flat square edge at the ricasso which you can sand up to by hande and get reasonably close.

However, some of the Busse knives have very intricate shapes around the ricasso areas and sometimes at the pommel that would be VERY hard to make look decent unless you remove the scales.

I found a post on bladeforums showing a die/punch used to flare the rivets in a bench vice. I am not sure of the proper type of rivets, but the guy who owned the die/punches said he found some titanium tubing (of the proper dieameter) at a hobby shop that he cut to length and then flared with his die/punches.



[img]http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j183/DWRW/Die-PunchesforBusseRivets.jpg[/img]


[img]http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j183/DWRW/Die-PunchesforBusseRivetsbeingpress.jpg[/img]





----------------





Instead of me typing a bunch more, I am copying and pasting some posts from some older threads:



---------------

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmmm. Maybe Vic should start a penetrator tipping service. Given the number of penetrator tips he's put on his own knives, he should be an expert at it by now. Watcha think, Horn Dog?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I could. It takes longer to unpack and repack the knives than it does to do a little penetrator tip. Its much easier than putting a polished edge on.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Vic is right. The penetrator tip is a very easy and very fast modification (if you have a belt sander). It would literally take longer to pack the knife back up.

By the time you paid for Priority shipping at about $7 - $9 each way for one knife, you could have paid about 30%-50% towards your own belt sander!

You guys out there who haven't yet picked up a belt sander need to head down to your local hardware store and get one. - Or look up Harbor Freight or similar online.

These little 1"x30" belt sanders are not fancy or expensive tools, but they can do a lot! I think I got mine for about $40.00 or so. Belts are usually about $1.50 - $5.00 depending on grit and type. Most of my local stores only carry about 80, 120 and 150 grits. These grits will do a lot of "general" type grinding and yard tool worthy sharpening.
But, fine quality sharpening and polishing will require much finer grits and belts. There are a few good places online for this such as:

Lee Valley



These sanders are great for customizing and/or sharpening knives (and you will need the right belts for sharpening good knives! ). But, I use mine VERY often just for sharpening yard tools and for many other projects around the house.

Dremels are toys by comparison and Dremels cost a lot more. Dremels are good for "Little" tasks. But, they just don't really handle bigger tasks worth a flip. And rotary tools are hard to work with sometimes to get flat, even, mirror or consistant results. The belt sander is MUCH better for almost any knife or tool modification or sharpening - unless on very small parts on a folder or similar - then Dremel.

Belt Sanders at about $40 - $60 are WELL worth the cheap cost! (to me)

However, if you read many of the "How To" threads over on Bladeforums and Knifeforums, they will usually tell you to practice on some cheap knives first to get the feel for it. I will strongly concure with this as I am sure Vic will as well.
This is not a complicated tool to use by any means, but it does have a learning curve for feel and touch - when you want a nice looking finish.

A penetrator tip really is a very easy modification even without much experience... although, I would still recommend a few minutes of practice on something cheap. Be careful not to over grind the tip as you will mess up your point. And make sure the angles are what you want and mirrored (duplicated in reverse on opposite side). Other than that, pretty simple.

Reprofiling isn't too difficult. But, without some practice, you can end up with some ugly results. It does take a little practice to get the angles right and movement of the knife across the belt smoothly and evenly. After you get the hang of it, it is reasonably easy.

There are other more complicated things to grind on a knife. Grinding the flat areas of a CG knife to get rid of pits, but not mess up the shape of the knife and not damage the handle is a lot trickier than a penetrator tip.

It is good to know the limitations of a belt sander too. They can contour some handles, but that takes a fair amount of practice with a belt and belts are hard to get to make certain contours. Sometimes other tools are needed.


This link has some good belt-sanding/grinding tips: Grinder Tips

I like the last one.


But, I can add a few:

- Wear eye protection

- Don't let the blades get too hot (* I don't personally let my blades get so hot I can't hold them at their hottest spots)

- Watch out for the static build-up! - I have to ground myself as I have very strong and jumpy reflexes - which is not good with a fast rotating tool and a sharp blade! Most of the time I don't have any problems. I guess certain types of weather might influence static more (????). I mention this as better to be prepared than sorry. Again, most of the time, it is not a problem. But, every now and then you might build up some static and get a light to a good shock. I generally get zapped from the metal parts of the sander like the work-top. Being shocked is my least favorite part of this tool. Luckily, it isn't a constant problem. But, somedays when you aren't expecting it....

- Learn how to use the platten for flat grinds - a slack belt will not do a flat grind. I like a lot of parts of knives convexed. But, some things are better flat!

- Listen for popping noises. - Usually means something is wrong with your belt. Turn the grinder off. A slightly damaged belt will often pop very quickly after. A belt popping in your face is very unsettling. A belt popping when you have a sharp blade on it is worse. Platten grinding is noticable rougher on belts.

- Don't breath the dust! It is my understanding that certain woods are toxic and micarta is very unhealthy to toxic. I try to wear a mask. I hate masks, but I hate how my lungs feel after it is filled with crap even more. If the weather is nice, set up your grinder outside and hook up a fan. .... Unfortunately, Vic and I have bad Mosquitos!!! Little Bastards! I hate Houston's humidity, but the mosquitos are even more annoying to me. - Fix those two things and Houston is decent enough. - except I would prefer to have some nice mountains in the scenery and near enough to play in. (sorry - tangents).

- Belt grinders make a mess.... just so you know.


I am sure there are other good tips, but I don't want to make this sound to intimidating or complicating. These belt grinders aren't much more complicated to use than a drill or power saw. I would say it is not as dangerous as a power saw for sure. But, it takes a little more practice because of the much more "Freehand" nature of using a belt sander. And you always have to keep in mind you have a sharp blade in your hand that you don't want to get caught and thrown by a fast rotating tool.

So, again, I recommend some practice on cheap stuff first. - Probably best to practice on some "DULL" stuff first as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


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Another post:



I don't know everybodies qualifications for use of tools, so for me to generally state that everybody should get one could probably cause some problems.

But, I personally highly recommend a belt sander to "those capable of using one".

So, as much as I empowered people to get one before. I further empower you to use your own judgement and be responsible for all effects of purchasing, owning and using such tools. Be carefull!!! - especially when grinding sharp knives and similarly sharp tools!!!

If you read certain posts over at Bladeforums and knifeforums, even the professionals talk about an occassional knife going flying!!!

They especially caution about using buffers on sharp blades!!!!!

The loose knit material is apparently notorious for grapping and throwing blades. I have read where many professional knife-makers are very apprehensive about polishing blades with a buffer because of the dangers. So, if anybody decides to tinker with buffing sharp blades, be VERY AWARE of the dangers!
Based on what I have read, I would probably have to recommend "NOT" using a buffer on sharp blades unless you are very experienced.

Other safety tips related to belt-sanders:

Hold the knife carefully.
Don't grind off knuckles.
Wear eye protection.
Wear masks.
Keep loose sleeves and similar clothing away from wheels and belts - as they can catch and quickly grap your arm or similar causing a knife to fling or similar.

Etc. etc.!

Short of having a professional knife-maker teach you, there really isn't much to substitute for lots of practice if making modifications to nice knives.

And just heads up - Pay Attention! - Look for possible issues.

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The platen is crucial for flat grinds. If you are cleaning up a blade with flat sides, you will need to use the platen to "maintain" the flat surface.

Not using the platen - when grinding with a flexed belt seems to be generally referred to as "Slack belt grinding" - creates a convex grind.

The more you push or the looser your belt is the more convex the blade will be.

More convex edges and/or more obtuse grind angles are sometimes better for very thick blades or blades to be used as choppers as the curve can add reinforcing strength to the edge. - personal preference and use (????).

More flat grinds and/or more acute grind angles are often better for smaller knives not heavily used for chopping and intended for sharp cutting.

Most of the typical do-it-yourself belt sander don't truly have much in the way of tightening the belt. The adjustment screw can tighten it some, but usually also controls alignment. So, your ability to tighten much isn't really there much.

So, sometimes you will need to alter the amount of pressure against the belt for different radius curves or flatter grinds on your convexing.

As Vic mentioned, the proper belts are easily the most realistic way to get a proper finish or proper edge. Felt or leather belts with compounds go even further. *Hint: only use one felt or leather belt per given compound. It is generally not considered good to use multiple compounds on one belt as you will get mixed results. Whatever color compound you put on your belt will eventualy turn black and make them hard to tell apart. I heard of a good way to keep them correct is to keep them in a labeled zip-lock bag.

I don't always have to remove the platen to do some slack belt grinding on my sander, but it depends on your platen (and how your platen is attached), size of blade and your technique.

The tables do just tend to be in the way for most anything related to knife modifications. The general concept of the table is to help give you a fixed angle against the platen - say for a 90 degree grind. But, most knife modifications involve a knife with a handle already attached and it is pretty hard to ever get much if any use out of the table. It is just in the way.

But, don't loose or throw away the table either.

Don't use a bench-"Grinder" on knives. The typical Bench grinders typically run at VERY high speeds. The high speeds WILL easily damage a heat treatment and would likely be dangerous with a sharp blade.

I think the typical hollow ground knife goes like this:

1) cut and rough shape blank
2) grind primary grind on belt sander with large prefessional knife-makers sized wheels
3) drill holes for handle
4) heat treat
5) Clean and finish blade after heat treat
6) add and finish handle
7) sharpen

** Notice sharpening is last and heat treat is after heavy grinding. I think most knife-makers seem to use belt sanders with various belts and compounds for sharpening.


Best tip I can think of for beginning with a Belt sander: Go slow!

Also, if you have a Drill press, I found a "Kit" with various sized drum sanding heads at Sears that has been pretty helpful for a lot of concave shaping - such as choils and handles and such. Something to consider.....

I already had a drill press and find lots of home projects I use it for. It can do a lot more precision than a regular drill press and it really helps free up your hands which can be very helpful.
But, a fairly cheap Delta drill press or similar would start at about $100 and go up. I have a counter-top model that I can move around, BUT it is still pretty heavy to move. I have been considering buying or building a table I can roll it around on, but it would need to be able to roll off and back onto the edges of my garage. And then I would need to take up floor-space in my garage.

I have lots of pretty expensive tools as I do lots of home renovation projects. Compressors, table saws, miter saws, nail guns and many other high dollar tools that make my drill press seem like a good deal. Heck, most little 12V, 14.4V and 18V cordless drills cost more than $100. But, not everybody will justify a drill press (?????).


Anyway, again, Good luck!


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This thread is supposed to be about sharpening, but stripping blades and refinishing to satin is often a tie in.

Here is a great post by Vic from the past - #79719 - Sun Jun 24 2007 10:55 AM :



Tutorial: Stripping & Polishing Pics

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

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