Thanks again KG for your efforts in putting all this together! This is exactly what I need to be reading over before I get started with the new Kalamazoo. I haven't ordered belts yet but plan to do that today...(it came with one 80 grit).

I'm carefully planning the set up and placement to optimize everything. I can see how 'dry runs', i.e. standing at the machine, holding the blade in the work position, is really useful not only in understanding some of the finer points that you and others mention, but also in positioning the machine, setting up the work area etc.

To stray just a little...I'm thinking about changing careers...getting out of the plumbing buisness (why don't we have spell check?) and I thought after I get up and running with the belt sander about the concept of starting a sharpening service. Any thoughts? How to get started? The guy in the Aaron Brown clip seemed to have a nice little gig going.

This seems to be a good price, the least expensive I've found thus far, for a new Kalamazoo:

http://www.knifekits.com/vcom/product_info.php?cPath=49_115_207&products_id=309

crpoc,

that is probably the best price I have seen on a Kalamazoo.

Tango,



I hope there is some worthy info scattered amongst all of the rambling. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

80 grit is pretty agressive. I feel it is a little too agressive for edge profiling. It is more suited for moderate shaping and material removal.

In regards to belts: you could do some research, but research can be pretty time consuming.

What I would probably recommend is to put a little trust in the guys selling the belts and just "Ask" their advice.

I have read that certain types of belts have certain better characteristics for certain things. Some types of belts last longer, cut smoother, etc. I think I remember reading good things about ceramic belts, but I haven't tried them. They may be good for some things and not others (????).

I wouldn't get overly worked up about the "type" of belts in the beginning. Just getting a good variety of grits to get the feel of and to experiment first is probably more relavent in the beginning.

Jerry Hossom makes some recomendations on his first post of his sharpening thread listed above. I would be pretty confident in his advice. But, you could ask the guys selling the belts. Explain what you are trying to do - then try to determine if they seem like they are knowledgable and giving knowledgable advice - good luck.

In case you missed it above, read this: Grinder Tips

-----------




That is a HUGE open-ended question......

Honestly, I don't think the answer is as simple as you might think.

Well.... my first advice would be to get your equipment and do some practicing! I don't see a problem with planning ahead, but you probably need to figure out how to do it first, then be able to be convinced your skills are good enough to sell! And sell as a "professional" at what you are offering.

I would probably advise to not quit your day job just yet. If you decide to try this, I would probably recommend doing it on the side for a bit to see if and how you can get it going prior to not having an income (????).

You are also going to need to learn and know how to "professionally" sharpen a LARGE variety and types of knives:

*** Kitchen knives come in a HUGE variety of styles and with a large variety of edge profiles and bevels. Some clients might want a specific bevel angle.
Can you sharpen a serrated bread knife? Have you seen the variety of serrations?

You can't sharpen all of these knives with a belt sander. You will have to know quite a few different sharpening techniques and be a proficient professional with a large variety of knife knowledge.

You would do yourself a favor by being knowledgable about a large variety of steel info and different knife maker info.

Might want to get knowlegable with all parts and terms related to knives and especially kitchen knives if that is "possibly" a large sharpening market: Kitchen knife forum @ Knifeforums

I would generally say it is best to be as knowledgable as possible about a WIDE range of knife information: types of knives, knife makers, types of steel, types of grinds, types of knives that require specific types of grinds because of intended application; Single edge on right or left side for right or left handed use?; etc., etc......

Do you know kitchen knife terms and styles of knives? Japanese terms vs. European? - Santoku vs. Sashimi (aka Yanagi); Nakiri vs. Usubo; Deba vs. Gyutou, etc., etc.......

If you get into kitchen knives, there is a LOT to learn and to offer to sharpen would likely require being very knowledgable about a bunch of knife info. Learning about Japanese knives is almost like learning about an entire culture.

I am NOT an expert. I have just seen a little and enough to know there is WAY more info that I don't know.

Certain chefs can be reasonably knowledgable about knives. But, their own little world of chef specific knives is a little different than field use knives. However, it would likely be in your best interst to know what you are dealing with and know how to speak "knowledgably" to prospective clients.

It may seem like over-kill on the service, but some of these Japanese knives actually (if you can believe it) can cost more than Busse INFI "varient" knives and they are intended to have very traditional and "specific" edges as they are often used for specific tasks.

If a chef or some rich guy with some $2,500.00 folded damscus hand-forged whatever hands you his knife and you put the wrong type of edge on it, you and your business "might" have some problems. Further, many collectors and users of fine cutlery take great pride in some of their knives. If damaged, it might be like wrecking somebodies Ferrari.

I am not trying to scare you, but the reality is sharpening knives "might" require a broad spectrum of knowledge and skills.

On the other hand, you "might" have a majority of cleintelle who just want there piece of steel sharper (????).

The guy with a Van and mobile sharpening like in Alton Brown's clip probably/"possibly" has the right idea if your intent is to focus on a "niche" area of specifically sharpening. You probably need to be able to go to your clients.
On the other hand, I can see where certain people might want to drop by a "Shop" to drop off business. But, my guess is mobile is best.
If you are a one-man show (likely the case), you probably can't run and keep a "shop" open for sharpening - and be mobile. Probably a conflict in hours of operation (???).
My guess is that the cost and over-head of maintaining a shop would out-weigh revenue justification for a shop. And I believe your main market would be catering to professionals in the field.

D&R Sharpening is a sharpening business run by a guy who I keep seeing doing a lot of posting on Knifeforums. I haven't had any discussions directly with him, but I have read a lot of posts by him. Check out his web-site: D & R Sharpening Solutions

....... Lot's of good info on his web-site.

Take a look at the inside of his van: Sharpening Van inside

There is some pricing info on his web-site. Having a web-site is pretty big these days even for a local market. I don't know, but I don't see a whole lot of demand for getting people outside of your local market to track you down for sharpening. But, it is possible.

Again, I have read some of this guys posts on knifeforums. He is pretty knowledgable and he uses MANY different techniques as application requires.

Knowing this info and building trust and credibility with clients is likely a make or break deal.

I keep referring to chefs as being a target market, but hair-stylists also have HIGH dollar shears - also requiring a VARIETY of different sharpening techniques. You would likely go to them as well.

Machinists and similar commercial trades have a variety of "tools" than need sharpening, but again, often very unique types of steels and VERY specific grind angles. New and wide base of knowledge required again.

I have no idea if any similar services are available in your area, but it is always good to know your competition in your market: If there is any competition, how they run their business and how you could do it better.
In the process of learning your competition, you should try to determine the market demands: who wants your service - who are you going to try to market your services to and how.
How much do you charge / "can" you charge?, what is your over-head costs - equipment, gas, insurance, etc. Does the business model pay enough to cover expenses and provide a reasonable income?

Alton Brown is a TV personality, but essentially a chef with a TV cooking show.

I would think that chefs - especially those at high end restaurants and/or high end hotels with nice restaurants might be a target client - possibly the "main" target for that type of service (???).

I have been to gun and knife shows where on "rare" occassion I have seen a guy with a setup charging $5.00 or similar to sharpen a knife. But, I haven't seen this often and I don't know how much it costs to have a table at a gun show. Maybe if considering this option, go to a gun and knife show and talk to guys there about "sharing" the cost of a table since you wouldn't need much space (???).

I tend to believe in being "Pro-Active" in marketing a business. Putting up a sign or an ad in the yellow pages or even a web-site isn't going to get you off the ground alone. All of these are worthwhile marketing efforts, but not much by themselves. Word of mouth is going to be huge. Business cards to hand out sounds obvious and simple, but are still a HUGE tool in my book. Spend a little bit of time designing your business card prior to ordering a box. Try to get the most relevant info well displayed on the card without being a jumbled mess. Sometimes a little "sales" pitch on the card can be good. Nowdays, you can print info on both sides of a card - maybe a price list on back. The information on the card and "How" the info is presented to the person who sees your card sometimes influences whether they even actually read the card.
If you have a good client, give them two or three cards and find your own best way to ask for referrals. Referrals are HUGE.

You would likely need to start out literally knocking on doors - such as restaurants. You might approach them with a flyer of some sort breaking down your prices. But, to get your foot in the door, you might "consider" offering a discount the first time to get them "Hooked". Any good chef is going to HIGHLY appreciate VERY sharp knives. Using sharp knives vs. dull is very addictive.

Similarly, there are a few outdoorsmen, hunters, etc. who would greatly appreciate sharp knives. But, my gut feeling is that the outdoorsman and hunting crowd is a harder sell. Outdoorsman mentallity is they want to do it themselves. But, there are quite a few who have been frustrated with their own inabilities to sharpen well and might concede to a professional. I just don't know how to market to hunters and outdoorsman in a local market other than a gun and knife show - hand out lots of cards and/or flyers.

Get to know all of your local knife shops for sporting knives, kitchen knives, professional use blades, shears, etc. Keep in contact, discuss ways to promote yourself at their place of business, maybe ask or arrange to be part of any big promotions with traffic where you can set up shop on a big promotion traffic day, etc. You want to be friends with local vendors and retailers who sell any product you might likely sharpen. But, I am referring to specialty stores, not your local general sports store.

Chefs - especially high end chefs, often take pride in their knives, but like Alton, they might maintain them by honing them on a steel, but often are not good at sharpening or don't want to take the time or are afraid of messing up expensive knives, etc. You have to find a way and be prepared to "SELL" the value of your services: Why do they want to "PAY" you.
Ask yourself the possible questions and prepare the possible answers in advance.



Sorry for my long reply.... I got carried away again. But, in my mind, your question really was HUGE. And I only feel I have scratched the surface. Any business small or big can be advised upon with book-loads of advice. But, I will have to wrap up that for now. Some of the above info might be sketchy and random, but hopefully will help with some of the thought process.

Good luck.

.

KG -
You've covered a lot of ground, and brought up some very valid considerations. I think I can do it if I start small, don't rush things and equip myself properly (tools AND knowledge) and market it properly. There's alot to learn!

I'm going to print out your post and read it over a few times...lots of good points there!

Thanks!
Mike

Based on a recent post, I thought I would add this post from another thread here - to help update this one:


I don't know if you will be heading down the path that includes stropping or not. There really is no "ONE" way. Many of the different methods can be sufficient or effective.

But, again, I personally LOVE full convex or even partial convex on flat grind. And, I personally really find stropping the best way to get a hair popping edge.

It takes a little practice and know-how. But, so do most techniques.

Research is good.

I recently built myself a new strop bat (with some leather scraps help from a fellow forum buddy here - Thanks Brian).


My strap bat is pretty big at about 22.5" long and with the strop surface area about 13" x 3.1875".

Honestly, the handle doesn't realy have much value. I could have left it off. But, I like the size of the surface area. There are a lot of strops out there with a small width of 1.5" - 2.0". They work, but I like the larger area for larger knives.

I just glued and clamped together some scrap pieces of Kempas hardwood flooring leftover from re-flooring part of my house. I used some brad nails and screws in some hidden places as I tend to over-build my projects. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The slats are solid hardwood and were nice and flat. (* This Kempas is some VERY HARD / TOUGH heavy duty wood! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> )







It doesn't need to have different levels and bevels and such, but.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> :




With compound (needs some heat and smoothing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />):



I picked up my compounds from DLT Trading Co


The Black does about 90% of the work with the green just doing the final touch up to the edge.

In most cases, the key is to not push down on the knife and just let the weight of the knife be enough - unless the blade is very light.
If you push down too hard, you cause the abrasive to rise back behind the sharp edge and dull the edge instead of sharpen. It takes patience and time.


There are some pretty good videos on YouTube about stropping.

I still love this video from J. Neilson. J. Neilson uses a power-strop / belt sander method:

Quick & easy knife sharpening - J. Neilson - Notice very little flex in the belts when sharpening.

I currently use my belt sander for just shaping and reprofiling. But, with the 220 grit, I get a bunch of the shaping of the edge done. I still want to upgrade to some better/finer grits and some leather strop belts some day. But, I am holding off for a better quality belt sander still. (some day <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)


Since Bark River makes all of their knives with a convex edge, there are a lot of good threads/posts on the Bark River forum (at Knifeforums.com) about stropping.




I like to keep my compound flat on my strop, but I don't like to use my knife to flatten the compound as it will abrade any given part of the knife intentionally or not.

So, I keep a cheap 3" - 4" putty (spackling) blade near my strop to help keep my strop compound level and flat.
Putty knives can be had for $3 - $4 at any hardwear store.

But, any cheap piece of "FLAT" / square edged metal will work.

I also have some metal rulers from Wal-Mart that are about 1.25" wide and good thickness and nice edges for about a $1.00. They could be cut in half or thirds and work VERY well!

Spines of various saw blades should work well such as Reciprocating or Jigsaw blades, old scrap hack-saw blades, etc.

Just any scrap piece of metal that has a pretty good flat square edge that can scrape.

I like to hold the metal blade with both hands on either side of the strop and draw (pull) the blade across the strop at just slightly forward of 90 degrees like you would draw a burnishing or scraping blade across flat wood.

I keep my strop on a pan or lid to catch the crumbs when I do this.

I don't like to mess up my blades or spines of my knives leveling my strop.

.

Knifeguy you are the man!

i am a sharpening nut. I like convex edges for some types of knives and standard edges for others.

One of the most useful tools I have is the dremel with little circles of sandpaper.

I have about an hours worth of videos on sharpening with a belt sander posted here. There might be something useful in there.

BTW, I just picked up one of those KMG's <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hey Knifeguy,

That is one fine looking stropping paddle!

Thanks BrianA!

wow

i think my brain is going to explode!


awesome info in this thread

Mine, too. If I had known it was this complicated, I would never have started using a belt sander. The information is all good, though. I have only ruined a few inexpensive knives while learning this stuff. It is easier to do than it is to describe accurately. Like walking. We do many things instinctively without really thinking about it. Like I naturally feel that more pressure on the belt means more convex and also more heat and more material removed. Also the closer to the wheel, the less flex and less convex. My full convexed ASH1 took me 8 hours. The math formulas to describe the exact shape of the final grind are mind boggling. But the process of doing it was very organic and natural for me.