Put down that fishing pole, Brian and get to grinding! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I kept looking through my posts trying to find a particular link to a stropping tutorial and couldn't find the link. I have referenced this link for a few years now. It is a great tutorial and used by MANY or Knifeforums and quite a few other forums:


CONVEX SHARPENING THE BRKCA WAY By Reid Hyken aka: Sharpshooter

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

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Thank You KnifeGuy !! That is great info- appreciate very much <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

wow this is all the info i need thanks KG!!!

i wish i could read it all now but work calls!

have a great day guys!

Nick,

For $200, you can “get into the game” very well. Amazon sells the Delta SA180 for about $114 with free shipping last I checked (it changes…). A good leather belt will probably run about $25 - $35. A handful of various grits on decent quality belts and a couple of abrasive compounds will take you to about $200 or so. With that set-up, you will be able to do a LOT!

But, practice on some cheap junker knives at first is always highly recommended.

I am a big advocate of using a belt sander for sharpening and “reprofiling” my edges.

I don’t have the SOD, but I have and have had many other Busse and kin knives.

Busse and kin knives have a mentality of shipping their sharpened edges fairly obtuse. Since Busse and kin have developed such a reputation for hard use/abuse knives and since there is a fair amount of the people who use Busse and kin knives who want their knives to show no or very little edge damage or edge deformation even when pounding their Busse and kin knives into cinder blocks. Over the years, I have seen quite a few posts from people who took their new Busse and kin knife of whatever steel out and beat on harder than steel materials and then posted with surprise on how their Busse “failed” (in the owners mind) because it had a little ding or roll. The reality is that INFI, SR-77, SR-101 are all very tough, but they will still ding and roll with certain abuse even with a very thick obtuse edge because there are many other materials that have a higher hardness including other steels or various rocks and minerals in nature. But, Busse steel has a very good reputation for not chipping out. Although, there have been a few exceptions. In any event, those thick obtuse edges are tough edges, but still just don’t make great slice cutting edges.
You “Can” make an obtuse angle “sharp”. Many shearing machines have close to 90 degree angles. But, while “sharp” edges can accomplish many types of cutting tasks, obtuse edges don’t make the best slice cutting edges. Finer thinner angles will slice through material easier.
With knife steels there are compromises. If you want a thin slicer, it won’t be as tough. If you want Uber-tough, you tend to have to compromise in some of the slicing potential. SR-77 can be re-profiled to have a much thinner edge than typically ships from the factory. And this thinner edge will slice better and still be “reasonably” tough. But, it will roll and deform a little easier. There are a lot of factors to consider when reprofiling a blades edge. But, basically, if you are doing your own knives and do it often enough with lots of knife use, you get a feel for what type of edge profile you like and what is best for your uses.
If you beat the snot out of certain knives, you should probably consider leaving the bevels on those knives a little thicker. If you have certain knives with harder steel that you only use for dedicated slicing, you can typically make those bevels more acute to optimize slicing. Just know that the thicker edges won’t slice as well and the thinner ones will get damaged easier if abused.
In either case, a convexed edge as you would develop by using a belt sander, will cut very well. I personally prefer a convexed edge on most of my knife edges and especially my field use knives. I think a good convex edge can offer a good balance of edge toughness with good slicing ability. Some fine slicing knives might be slightly better served with an acute flat edge grind, but for most any real world use – especially field use and for larger knives such as the SOD, I consider a convex edge ideal. But, opinions vary.

With practice, the right belt sander and the right belts/grits/abrasives, a belt sander can be MUCH faster at reprofiling and sharpening knives.

The general public has it fixed in their heads for centuries on using stones for sharpening. For those who insist on using stones and want a fixed angle, there are some great sharpening jigs on the market. Some people have relearned the art of stropping. I built and still use my strop a lot. I can use my strop easier inside the house. And there are some great ideas out there for creating pack-worthy mini strop kits for field use, hunting, camping, survival, etc.
I generally only use my stop for fine tuning and only because I still haven’t yet upgraded my belt sander to what I want. And since I haven’t upgraded my belt sander, I don’t want to waste money on certain belts for my current belt sander/grinder. I have been dying to get some quality leather belts for power stropping on my belt sander. If Busse and kin would stop taking most all of my money, I might be able to buy an upgraded belt sander. While a 1”x30” is cheap and can do a LOT, I still recommend saving your pennies for a nice Delta SA180 or better. (Check Amazon.com)




My concern is not heat build-up as I have a good feel for that and I don’t think it takes much practice to get a feel for. Just knowing about how to keep an eye on heat build-up and following through with a couple of simple practices, makes heat build-up reasonably easy to keep in check.

My much bigger concern is “Control”. I want clean lines and don’t want goofed up spots on my blade.

If you slightly dig a belt into a corner of your blade just slightly wrong, it can take a LOT of balancing and steel removal to make a blade look decent again. It is a lot easier to avoid messing up your blade by just edge sharpening. But, I have used my machine for lots of significant modifications on many types of knives including folders. Little details and even big grind changes can both be hard to get right with cheap equipment.

In regards to heat build-up: coarser grits don't necessarily heat the blades as fast as finer grits. I can understand why you might think this.

Coarse grits obviously remove more material and much faster and they can develop heat quite rapidly, but the tendency for most people if you use a finer grit is to hold the blade on the finer grit longer and harder to try to remove more material. Doing so will develop heat VERY fast. I think it is common for many to think that if you are removing a lot of material, you are generating more heat vs. not removing much material doesn’t generate much heat. But, this is not how it works.
Coarser grits can literally “Cut” off the steel with less friction. Finer grits have more and more contact and more and more micro-abrasion “Friction” that generates a lot of heat (sometimes very fast) even if not removing so much material. Most people wouldn’t think a buffing wheel with compound would generate much heat – they would be VERY wrong.

Probably, the two most common things to watch out for – especially for beginners are:

1. Not to let the heat build up to much and damage temper. But, just knowing to watch out for this makes this fairly easy to prevent. Knowing to watch for it, and using a water dunk.

2. Destroying nice grind lines. This just takes a lot of practice, familiarity with grits, how to angle and move your blade, etc. But, coarser grits can and will do much more damage faster if you mis-align your blade or otherwise grind it improperly. In many cases, you can get good enough to deal with a higher speed machine just by getting good at how to angle and move the blade with the right pressure in concert with a given machine’s speed. But, in many cases, variable speed would be a very nice option.


For me, I would probably be fine in most cases for 90% of my grinding with a Delta’s full speed. My current grinder only has one speed. But, I have talked a buddy into the SA180 and used it a bit. It does seem faster. But, it also seems much easier to control. To me, to keep my grind lines smooth and straight, the control factor out-weighs speed.

My cheapo Delta 1”x30” has too much belt movement and too much belt curvature. I have accomplished a lot with it and with a lot of experience and familiarity with it, I have produced some decent results. But, I am VERY confident, I could produce even better results faster and with much more ease with a better tool than my cheapo 1”x30”. And I am confident the much higher end Delta SA180 is about 4-6 times better quality than my cheapo Delta.

However, even with the higher speed of a Delta SA180 being fine for me in most cases, if I want to “hone” with very fine grits and leather belts, I think slower speeds offer even more control.

But, I have not seen variable speed belt sanders for much less than $2,000.


I don’t have a Delta SA180 (yet???), but if and when I get one, I might be interested in trying one of a couple of attempts I have seen to modify belt speeds by adding multiple sized pulley’s. See:

Delta SA180 Belt Pulley modifications



Regardless of grit, I recommend a few things:

1. Keep in mind that the heat build-up between a belt grinder and knife steel is through friction and more importantly “AT” the point of friction. In most cases, people are doing most of their grinding “AT” the thinnest part of the blade (the edge). A thicker part of steel can “dissipate” heat. But, a thinner part cannot so easily. If you feel heat in the upper thicker parts of the blade like the spine, the thin edge that you are creating the heat at would have been MANY times hotter. Which brings the next point:

2. Always keep a bowl of water dunk close to your grinder. You will have to practice to know how and where is the best/ideal place to keep you water dunk. *Don’t use glass - I actually used an old very thick glass vase once because it was handy. I thought it was solid and thick at about ¼” thick glass and it was deep enough for my blade, after about 10 dunks, the glass cracked and then fell apart making a big mess on my workbench and shop. The dunk bowl needs to hold water at least as long as the blade and some extra inches of water can be handy as well. Sometimes, I will reshape choils, thumb ramps and such and will dunk a portion of the handle a few inches beyond what I am grinding. Ambient temperature water will cool the blade down VERY fast – within often within a second or two and many times faster than air cooling. When I first started using my belt sander, I didn’t always have a dunk handy. Even then as now, I like to keep the blades cool enough where I can tough and hold any part of the blade – especially at the areas I am grinding. Waiting for a blade to air cool so you can keep grinding takes WAY longer than a dunk. Especially for beginners (until you get a good feel for how various belts build up heat and how heat dissipates on various blades), I recommend dunking after every 1-3 passes or so. With practice, you will get a feel for friction vs. heat build-up and when to dunk.

3. Don’t hold any blade stagnant against the belt – most any grit can “burn” into any blade if held stagnant. If you “Burn” the blade, you have most likely damaged the heat treatment/temper to some degree. A “burn” mark will often be some sort of discoloration in the steel – black, blue, orange, etc. depending on the type of steel and severity of the burn. If burned (damaged temper), the blade can *Plus, holding a blade stagnant against a belt will ruin your grind line. If you have a bad ding or roll in an edge, you will still have to grind it out across the whole length of the blade by running the full length of a blade across the belt. In some cases, you can feather/taper a blade on and off of the belt, but that requires more practice and can still mess up your grind lines if you don’t have a lot of experience. By keeping a blade moving, you don’t generate “spot” heat and you help the heat distribute and dissipate more evenly.

4. I am sure there are more things to recommend (?????), but practice is best.


As has been said in many of the previous posts about using a belt sander/grinder for the first time, start with a CHEAP practice blade. Further, I would recommend trying to start with various size and shaped cheap practice blades to familiarize yourself with blades comparable to what you will actually be wanting to work on. Flatter edges are easier to work on. Curvier blades with lots of belly and recurves are trickier. 3” – 5” blades are easier, larger 7.5” + blades require steadier movements. Small little blades can either be easy or hard (?????).

Depending on what you are doing, sometimes it would still be advised to use the coarser grits – at least to a point.

Below, I will attempt to break down how “I” use the various sanding grits. *** But, keep in mind that how they are used can vary depending on type and hardness of steel, size and shape of knife, your experience level, your belt sander/grinder and it’s speeds, etc…

The common belt grits are:

40 - VERY coarse - for fast material removal - best for serious blade shaping, knife “Making”, fast reprofiling and similar – One should probably be pretty experienced before using this grit as a blades “shape” can be VERY quickly altered and made to look like a mess if you don’t have a feel for it. Great for quickly taking heavy dings out of machetes, axes/hatchets and such before progressing to finer grits. I don’t often use this grit for finer quality knives.

80 - Pretty coarse - still pretty fast material removal - still good for blade shaping and fast reprofiling, but offers more control for most novices compared to 40 grit. This grit will become a must have grit for heavy edge re-profiling or ding fixing and is still a good grit for fixing heavy dings in machetes and such. But, 80 grit can still mess up a blade fast if not experienced. So, I would still recommend starting with 120 – 220 on nicer knives for novices.

120 – Fairly coarse – moderate material removal – still a grit for shaping and reprofiling. Not really for sharpening.

150 – Fairly coarse – very similar to 120, but slightly finer

220 – Medium grit – can slowly/slightly reprofile and quickly sharpen, but not a keen edge (IMO)

320, 400, 600, 15 micron, 9 micronblack, green, white pink polishing compounds, all perform varying levels of sharpening and polishing.


For a good source for Belts see:


Lee Valley Belts

Jantz Knife Supply

Texas Knife Supply - Sanding Belts

Pop's Knife Supply - Sanding Belts

I think it was Snotpig who had good luck with the premium belts from here:

McMaster-Carr - Sanding belts


There are some other belts sources and types of belts I have seen recommended, but I wouldn’t be the best source for advice. I actually had some other links at one time, but can’t find them.

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When using your belt sander for reprofiling and coarser grit belts, Vic, myself, Mike Stewart and many others will grind the edge into the rotation of the belt. This technique allows you to better see the edge as you are grinding and results in a better edge grind and/or edge profile.

I believe Vic and Mike actually do a lot of sharpening that way to. But, it gets trickier with finer grits (which have thinner paper).

The thicker heavier grits and belts are much more forgiving to an edge. I have yet to cut through a heavy coarse grit belt. But, the thinner belts can be cut just a little easier than I like - especially, certain cheaper belts or well worn belts. I don’t think the belts cut so easily just by the blade’s edge cutting into the belt at a perpendicular angle. I think what happens is if the blades edge is just slightly angled and catches the corner, it slices through the belt in a fraction of a second – Basically, the belt pops and flys around the wheels a bit - VERY fast and fairly unsettling. I haven’t been hit by a belt or hurt, but I suppose it could do some damage. Also, when a belt is worn and/or frayed, I think they are more prone to being snagged by a blade’s edge. Or certain cheaper belts have a lesser quality lap joint that can be snagged by a blades edge.

Maybe Vic can chime in and add more input. BrianA is also quite skilled and knowledgeable about belt sanding as some others around here. But, hopefully, I at least addressed your question about heat vs. grits and speed.

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That's a GREAT post KG, thanks!

From another thread:



Bob,


Hmmmm Lansky (and similar fixed angle jig systems) vs. mouse pad (and similar convex or strop type systems) are a little like vinegar and water to each other. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Some problems with Jigs vs. Stropping and/or belt sanders:

Jigs require constant angles.

Stropping and belt sanders create convex edges with inconsistent fluid curves.

The two don't mix well.

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You "can" convex edges that were at fixed angles pretty easily. But, then it requires a lot more work to get the edge back to the fixed angle because you will have to sharpen with the jig through the convex back to the jig's angle. That takes a lot of time and effort - unless you have some good coarse diamond stones. Again, quality and variety of stones help a lot, but also can cost a lot.

Same with stropping. You can strop a fixed angle blade, but it will convex the angle which takes that much more time and effort to get an angle back to a fixed angle.

Basically, for time and convenience sake, if you use a fixed angle jig, it is generally in your best interest to "maintain" that fixed angle. To do that, you really need to only use your jig because any efforts by hand on a free sitting stone, a strop or belt sander is just not going to maintain that angle.

Also, I personally use and like slightly different angles on different knives. I like my choppers to have a little thicker and stouter edge than my kitchen knives or folders or small slicers, etc. With a jig, you have to constantly change and set different angles. Again, for me, this was all just a hassle and jigs (for me) are just too darn slow and tedious.
With some practice, a belt sander is more about knowing some approximate angles, feel and similar. It might have a little steeper learning curve, but it quickly becomes so much faster and easier.


There is NOTHING wrong with sharpening jigs. But, if you like and want to use a jig, it seems to me you are best off “sticking” with a jig and not messing up your consistent angles by also using a strop type method….. unless you are experimenting with both systems on different knives and have certain knives set aside and dedicated to certain sharpening methods.... That would be learning! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Jigs can all help you create RAZOR sharp edges. But, the jig is only a PART of the sharpening equation. Maintaining a constant fixed angle is what the jig helps you do. But, you have to set the angle and/or figure out a knives existing angle – which can be tricky. How and where a knife is mounted in the jig can change the angle a bit as well. Learning how to use your jig and set up all of these angles is a big part of becoming proficient with any jig. For me, that just became a hassle. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Proper grit is another KEY part to sharpening with ANY system. And can be an expensive part – especially for certain jig systems.

While most stones probably last longer than most belts, the stones can cost MANY times more than comparable grit belts. In the end, along with being much faster and easier (IMO), I think a belt sander with belts is actually cheaper.

Keep in mind that many stones will actually hollow out over time which will affect the critical angles of a jigs intent - most noticable if changing from a hollowed out stone of one grit to a flat stone of another grit while trying to maintain the same angle. It won't work too well.

The Apex Pro is highly regarded sharpening jig/system. But, it is pretty expensive. And the stones that you have to buy for the system add up very fast – especially if you want a variety of grits.

If you are interested in a sharpening jig, I am confident, that the Lansky and Apex Pro are both effective. And you can learn a lot about edges by lots of use and familiarization with different sharpening techniques.

From the “Jigs” I have come across, I really liked the EZE Sharp Sharpening System (Jig)

See: Doing it EZE - posted by Trumby on Swamp Rat

The EZE Sharp was/is a heavy duty built jig. As far as jigs go, I think it was pretty versatile. Except, like other jigs, you have to have good quality stones. I was about to drop a lot more money on more stones for my EZE Sharp system....

But, then I started using my belt sander for sharpening. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I already had my belt sander prior to buying the EZE Sharp, but never considered using it for sharpening. I used it for shop/woodworking stuff. I saw where others used belt sanders on Knifeforums or somewhere... Maybe Jerry Hossom's post or something (????). I tried it and found how FAST it was. .... and how fast you could change an edge for the worse if you didn't understand and have a good technique. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

You can quickly appreciate the value of "Practicing" on cheap knives.

I only used my EZE system about 7-8 times before starting to use my belt sander. Then I shelved my EZE system. Eventually, someone contacted me to buy it. So, I sold it.


You can quickly spend lot more money on jigs and stones for the jigs than if you were to buy a decent belt sander, some good belts AND a leather strop with compounds.... even a bunch of cheapo knives for practicing on the belt sander can still cost less. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Since they both require a different type of skill set for the most part to learn how to use properly, I don’t think I would say that using and getting familiar with one system will help so much with another.

But, maybe you want to master a variety of sharpening techniques/methods.... And be a "Connoisseur" of sharpening.

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In regards to your inquiry about: you spotted “one” at JRE (??????),.... you had been discussing Lansky and homemade mouse-pad system. Most mouse-pad systems use sandpaper and can work very well. But, I think the mouse-pad systems inevitably lead to a leather strop – which JRE sells a very functional strop bat that I assume you were referring to.

Like this: JRE Industries - Strop Bats

I don’t have one of JRE’s strop bats. But, I have dealt with Dan at JRE. He seemed very helpful and friendly to deal with to me. And I have seen some posts in regards to others saying JRE’s strop belt was well made and a good design.

JRE’s price of $35 for a 4-sided and pre-loaded strop bat with (I am sure) good quality strop leather on a Red Oak bat, seems like a VERY good price/deal.

Notice JRE states: “We can make The Strop Bat any size you like. Custom size Strop Bats are NOT a problem! Just call us or email us with your specifications.”

Personally, I like a little larger strop bat. My strops leather surface area is about 13" x 3.1875" – But, mine is probably larger than needed.
I still like a surface area larger than 1.5" width as it helps with larger knives (IMO). But, in all fairness, you could easily strop a 10” blade on the “9 - 10 Inches long by 1.5 inches wide” like the strop surface area of JRE’s strop. The length is definitely not a problem.
But, personally, I would probably still opt up to a 2.5” wide strop or at least 2” wide which would still be plenty good and better/more versatile than 1.2" wide.
I don’t think most people would appreciate much gain in going up to 3” wide over 2.5” width. But, I think 2" has some advantages over 1.5" and 2.5" has some advantages over 2.0".
I don’t know what Dan charges for the custom sizing. But, I am pretty sure the prices would be fair and reasonable.

I ordered a sheath for my Bravo 1 from JRE that is nowhere near as nice as some of Jeff’s (Rainwalker) sheaths. I would rather own one of Jeff’s sheaths, but this was a time crunch situation and the JRE sheath was inexpensive, very functional and good quality for the money. He actually didn’t have the sheath in stock, but he made it up the night I ordered it and I had the sheath like 2-3 days later – VERY fast. I don’t believe that type of speed is normal – especially for out of stock items, but if anything, I would say that Dan at JRE obviously tries to work with his customers to help them get what they want.

For the record, convex sharpening by hand on a strop is still slow and tedious - especially if significant reprofiling is needed. But, the great thing about having a manual (convex technique )strop is for touching up. A strop bat is a great compliment to a belt sanding technique. - *One doesn't mess up the other.

With the right belts on a belt sander, you can get a VERY fine hair splitting edge and have no "need" for a strop. But, having and knowing how to use the strop for touch ups can be good for those times when you don't want to go outside, into your garage/shop, etc. to crank up the belt sander.... even if it would still be way faster to go to the shop/garage and use the belt sander.

Sometimes I will strop a knife or two while watching TV or something. But, also, some people might want a portable "field" strop kit. - something that would mess up fixed angle jig sharpened edges.


For some other tips, I want to defer to a whole "Sub"-Forum on Knifeforums.com See: Knifeforums - "Keeping Sharp" Forum

There is a LOT more info there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

But, be advised, including myself and my own opinions, you will find others who are quite set and confident with their own opinions and experiences.

Many people, including myself, have spent a lot of money investing into different sharpening systems before settling on our preferred methods. Some people prefer jigs (?????) – my guess is those people may have tried a LOT of systems,..... but “PROBABLY” did not try using a power belt sander with decent belts, decent abrasives and strops. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In all fairness though, some people might still prefer a manual jig or just strop system because they can't get the hang of a powered system or might just be afraid of hurting themselves or their knives with a powered system. I can't say that any given system is wrong for any reason. They are just different. And I just happen to like the speed of a powered system and I prefer my end results as well.... But, that is me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Thanks KG- I will look all of this over MANY times and adjust my thinking.I appreciate you taking the time to put up all this information and links.I must say that this shapening is as addictive as the collecting and other endeavors. I can say for sure that I am having a great time thanks to all the folks like you that share and make this an enjoyable place to be <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Glad to be of any help on "FEEDING the addiction". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Yes, sharpening can be an addiction. Cool, nice looking, well designed knives are a joy to look at and hold. But, the true "Function" comes from optimized "Cutting". While many of us strongly appreciate Busse and kin's Uber-Toughness, a knife is still (to me) a "Cutting" tool first.
Without being sufficient enough at cutting for my needs, toughness is not very relevant to me.
To me, cutting ability is still the "Primary" need for a knife. I love "SCARY" sharp! So, to me, optimized cutting ability (while being "tough enough" to handle the type of cutting chores) is what counts (to me) and makes a good knife a GREAT tool to use and enjoy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Sorry about your wallet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

.

Here is a link to a great post/thread with lots of general and specific info about knives, knife steel, sharpening, etc.

Knife Maintenance and Sharpening, Instructor: Chad Ward


*** By the way.... the above link is full of great info, but a long post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The link was originally posted on another thread by Chickenplucker <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

A great link with great info, so I added it here. (Thanks! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />)

One of the problems I have on my Delta SA180 is getting a convex edge that can be completely touched up with one pass - I have to make about three passes with each grit and blend the passes with one another. I'm guessing I don't take off enough metal on the back portion of the edge and am not using enough pressure. I'm wary of using too much pressure and rounding the edge however. I really need a tutor <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Alternatively, some good vids of your techniques (which really show how much belt deflection you should be getting to get cetain results) would be helpful.

Try using a strop for touchups. It works for me.