by looking at them???

get out and beat on them and tell us what you find! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

hahaha... define a "nick."

i haven't "dented" any blades, per se, but have definitely rolled edged.

well, thats what I meant, like a chip is like... a CHIP, like a piece of metal removed form the steel.
a ncik, I meant like I small dent in the edge.

well, given that it can take several sharpenings to get the blade back to "perfect" i would say that metal has been removed from the blade. that, or i suck at sharpening <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Good god I spit my soda out!

I have dents that sitll aren't gone even after many sharpenings.
but either way would you call the steel "brittle?"

Hmm, though EMF was either misinformed or misspoke, it would be interesting to add 5160 to the comparison of SR-101 and INFI. In my experience, 5160 is a great combat steel because of its amazing toughness, and should be held in the pantheon of super tool steels. As far the 101/INFI comparison, I think that if you put price and performance in a ratio, you'll find that they're about equal. I would say that INFI is the best, and that their heat-treat is the best, but also that their price reflects that very accurately. Its improper to compare two steels without also addressing the disparity in price. There will be exceptions to that statement, which I'm sure people will probably point out, but thats my opinion. That point aside, I will be the first to admit that SR-101 is inferior to INFI in many ways. As for chipping, I've noticed some very small dings in my RMD, but nothing that keeps it from being REALLY REALLY sharp (as the three stitches in my finger will attest to). I've stuck the knife in the dirt when I was frenziedly keeping a fire going, and things like that, but its still a really tough steel. Sharp, a fellow member, posted a thread of him digging through several 2x4's without any damage to the tip, so very good. But you get what you pay for (the glaring exceptions being SY and occasionally syderco).


my 2c

No, Sr-101 is modified 52100.

we all know unsub is the sr 101 enthusiest here.
and I'm pretty sure he know alot about both the steels so I'll wait fro him to post.
but i'm pretty sure 5160 is similar to 52100 which is similar to sr101.

potayto potawto emf... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

brittle? i wouldn't call sr-101 brittle, in my experience, but i don't claim to know everything. i think that ANY steel that is sharpened to a fine edge, with enough abuse, will chip/roll/dent/nick in time.

one way to think about it is this: would jerry use a "brittle" steel to make the chopweiler?

Well.... I started this post a while ago and there are about 10 replies since I started. Some of my comments have been addressed. But, here is what I wrote:


I have been an avid forum member on Rat Chat and on the Bladeforums for quite some time.

To my knowledge, I have only seen or heard of ONE Single instance of any significant edge chipping. - *** And in that case, the blade had been heavily profiled with power equipment. It has been speculated that the heat treatment may have been damaged by the power equipment and that may have caused the edge to chip. But,the actual cause for failure is unknown.

"Brittle" is a relative term. I would likely argue that SR-101 is more or seems more "brittle" than SR-77 and INFI. But, I wouldn't use the word "Brittle" to describe SR-101.

SR-77 is quite malleable compared to most knife steels. This malleability helps make it tough. The edge is more prone to deform or roll than chip. But, that malleability also doesn’t allow SR-77 to stay as sharp as long as SR-101 for “certain” types of cutting.
How the blade edge deforms and wears depends on how it is used.

There have been other documented cases (about 3-4 or so) of chipped SR-77. All cases appear to be from bubbles trapped in the steel near the edge that was undetected prior to use.
I don't recall seeing any "failure" of SR-77 except for when an obvious bubble was associated with the chip and I haven't seen an SR-77 blade break except by NOSS under "Extreme" abuse.

I would NOT worry about any "significant" chipping with INFI, SR-101 or SR-77.

The Swamp Rat - Rat Trap was the only knife "to date" made with a stainless steel - S30V. For a pocket knife/folder, I consider S30V to be a great steel and great for folder knife type uses. But, it is more prone to chipping than the other 3 steels.
I know of one case where the S30V Rat Trap blade was broken. That blade was used for prying a chunk of ice. We are not sure how thick the ice was. But, the owner of the knife was a guy who seemed (IMO) seemed to be trying to cause problems. He may have tried to break it to get it replaced.

NOSS has shown that INFI and SR-77 can be broken. SR-101 can be broken as well if you try hard enough. But, if used even under normal extreme uses, they are all very tough and more than sufficient for most.

SR-101 can be sharpened to a wicked sharp edge. I have sharpened SR-101 just as shaving sharp as INFI. Same for SR-77.

Most decent knife steels can be made "Shaving sharp".
The difference is in ability to hold the edge - resistance to chipping and resistance to deforming.
INFI seems to hold an edge longest. It is highly resistant to chipping and to deforming.
But, in real world use / common heavy use, the difference of how long over SR-101 isn't much and possibly negligable. So, from what I can tell, INFI is followed closely by SR-101 and then followed by SR-77. SR-77 does NOT chip easily at all, but SR-77 is the most malleable - easiest to deform.

For most people, the edge retention of SR-101 is much better than most knives they have owned or will ever use. SR-101 has very good edge properties. But, yes INFI is still a little better.

The knife industry is getting "FULL" of great steels that can be made very sharp and hold an edge pretty well. But, many of these custom/designer steels are brittle stainless steels. And these brittle stainless steels are a bear to get sharp.

SR-101 is much tougher than most of these stainless steels and much easier to sharpen.

The biggest advantage INFI has over SR-101 is toughness. But, again, for most people, SR-101 is PLENTY tough - **** ESPECIALLY in a little knife like a Swamp Warden or similar smaller blade. To break a Swamp Warden, you would likely need to take a hammer or pipe to it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

But, even the Battle Rat, Rat Mastiff and similar LARGE SR-101 blades have a fairly unblemished history. I do NOT know of a Large Swamp Rat ever being broken. With the number of SR-101 choppers sold, wouldn't that seem like a sufficient track record???? And they all still carry the same Life-Time Warranty.

As Macgregor stated, the other advantage INFI has over SR-101 is corrosion resistance.

INFI "WILL" rust. INFI is not stainless. But, INFI has a pretty high amount of chromium for Non-stainless steel at about 8.25%. - 12% - 13% is usually considered stainless.

*** For the record, Chromium is NOT the only factor in corrosion resistance. There are other elements that factor into corrosion resistance. INFI has a few other elements that help resist corrosion more than it's 8.25% chromium.
But, Chromium is generally considered the "benchmark" for determining corrosion resistance.


There is only a small handfull of non-stainless steels with more than 5% chromium and less than 12%.

INFI - 8.25%
Cru-Wear (RARE!) - 7.5%
Vasco-Wear (RARE! and I think discontinued ?) - 7.75%
CPM 3V - 7.5% (Fairly new, but good potential to become popular.)


Actually, there is only a small handfull of non-stainless steels even between 3% and 5% - **** And while A2 is pretty common, most of the others are currently quite rare in knife making uses!!!

A2 - 4.75% - 5.5%
M2 - 3.75% - 4.5%
M4 - 4%
S7 / S7XL / SR-77 - 3.25%
CPM 10V 5.25%
CPM 1v - 4.5%
CPM 9V - 5.25%
CPM 15V - 5.25%

By far the most commonly used (* For non-stainless blades) steels have less than 1% chromium (1095, other 10xx steels, 5160, 0170-6 (50100B) and O1 probably make up about 85% of the non-stainless steels used for knives outside of Busse and kin!) :

O1 - 0.4% - 0.6%
W1 - 0.7% - 1.7%
W2 - 0.85% - 1.5%
L6 - 0.6% - 1.2%
1095 and most 10xx steels: 0%
5160 0.7% - 0.9%



SR-101 (and 52100) have 1.3% - 1.6% chromium. This is better than a large portion of common non-stainless steels.
IMO, SR-101 "can" rust fairly easily. But, the key is to know that you need to keep it dry, keep a coat of wax or oil or similar on it and it isn't much problem. Without wax or oil in a wet enviro, it will rust relatively quickly.

So, while SR-101 can rust fairly quickly and quicker than SR-77 and much quicker than INFI, it is not as bad as O1, L6, 5160, and 10xx steels.



The other BIG / HUGE difference betweem SR-101 and INFI is PRICE!!!!

INFI may hold an edge 5% - 10% better and INFI may be 50% tougher, but it costs 2 - 4 times the cost of SR-101! And I still argue that the extra toughness is RARELY a factor - ESPECIALLY in little knives like a Scotch Dispenser or Swamp Warden! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
If you break a Busse knife of any type of steel, you are using the wrong tool for the job!



For my purposes, the ONLY factors that matter to me in about most of the INFI vs. SR-101 knives is corrosion resistance and PRICE!

I hate rust. But, in most cases I can manage with it.

SR-101 is PLENTY tough enough in about 99.99% or more of all applications of SR-101.


PRICE is just HUGE! I wish INFI were more reasonable in price. I would own more. But, at it's current price, other people will have to keep INFI business flowing. Obviously, people are buying it. More power to those willing to pay that much.


If price is no object and/or you MUST have the best and/or your LIFE depends on it, INFI is the best!

But, you really shouldn't have ANY worries about betting your life on SR-101 or SR-77. They will all get the job done VERY well.


I have not handled the SD, but I don't like three-finger handles and "visually" the SD is ugly and looks horribly uncomfortable. Maybe I am wrong, but for the money, I have no interest in betting on it. I don't typically care for Skeleton knives.

The Swamp Warden apparently works for some, but I don't find the handle comfortable. It doesn't fit my hand. I wish the guard and choil had been designed differently. But, that is just my opinion. To me, the Game Warden doesn't look much better.

Honestly, the current variety of Busse smaller knives doesn't seem to fit my demands for design and ergos.
I do NOT like the 1/2" sized choils and Talon Holes on most of the Busse smaller knives. But, to each their own.

The Rat Shaker, while still a skeleton knife, at least appears like it might meet some of my requirements for a small knife. I have been curious about this knife for some time. But, haven't ever picked one up.

I am very curious to see what the next Swamp Rat 3.5" bladed knife will look like. We know it will be stainless.


The smallest "Great" designed knives from Busse (IMO) are the SS4, HRLM, Bog Dog, RMD and larger knives. And none of those are very small.

But, I admit, I am hard to please with small knives and smaller folders. I am a little fanatical about ergo details and design - especially on small knives.



*** I would love to offer my input! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ...... I have tried. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> But, I acknowledge that my design concepts are based largely on my opinion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

.

52100
Carbon 0.98 to 1.10%
Manganese 0.25 to 0.45%
Silicon 0.15 to 0.35%
Phosphorus 0.025%
Sulfur 0.025%
Chromium 1.30 to 1.60%
Molybdenum 0.10%
Nickel 0.25%
Copper 0.35%

5160
Carbon 0.56 to 0.64%
Manganese 0.75 to 1.00%
Silicon 0.15 to 0.30%
Phosphorus 0.035%
Sulfur 0%
Chromium 0.70 to 0.90%
Molbdenum 0%
Nickel 0%
Copper 0%

They are not similar at all.