I am comparing my Busse Scotch Dispenser and my SR Warden. I love both, but the SD has the edge i think. I was wondering, what is the main difference between sr101 and infi? i know infi is a better steel but why and i would like to hear a comparison of these 2 knives... The SR warden vs the Busse SD. lets hear it.


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sr-101 rusts like nobodys bizness, great edge holding and sharpenability, brittle and has been known to chip, if its diff tempered you will have a very strong and flexible knife

infi is very rust resistant, great edge holding and sharpenability, extremely chip resistant, flexible and strong

since when is sr-101 (or 5200 for that matter) been known to chip?!
it CAN chip... more readily than INFI.
but it's VERY tough steel with good edge holding and its fairly easy to sharpen.

INFI is REALLY easy to sharpen, has good corrosion resistance, holds a great edge (just as good as sr-101 right?) even under heavy use, the edge pretty much will NOT chip and it's extremley tough.

that is just from my understanding, some may clarify what I have to say, or prove me wrong.
but some of thew stuff is opinion, i've heard that INFI holds a better edge than sr101 and I've heard sr101 holds a better edge than INFI.
so I guess it depends somewhat...
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
hope that helsp a little.
both are GREAT steels.

I really don't think the SD and Swamp warden are a fair comparrison, I the Skelly warden is more alike.

he's talking abvout comparing the steels though.
but I don't think the knives are completley alike but...
they are kind of close.

I was talking about micro chipping, nothing major.
Its a brittle steel, not as brittle as s30v though.

it's not a brittle steel dude.
maybe you read that somewhere, and I'm not sure about micro chipping (although I guess it happens, would anyone ever notice??) but i've used some 5160, and it certainly is NOT brittle steel.
someone beat on a swamprat for 8 hours with a pipe wrench.
come on.
brittle?
I think that is the wrong word to use.

Ummmm, sr-101 isnt 5160.

I disagree about SR-101 being rust prone. It is true that it rusts easier than INFI, but I have been using a Battle Rat which is made of SR-101 here in hot, humid, rain soaked South Carolina for 4 years how without any problem with rust. All you have to do is clean it and dry it when you are done using it. I also normally put a light coat of wax just on the exposed metal before I put it way and ta-da, no rust.

gentlemen, i get little "chips" in my swamp rat blades all the time. none of them has ever been big enough to stop me from what i'm doing or warrant an immediate sharpening to continue working. they all sharpen out over time and i don't feel that a single one of them has been from poor materials, workmanship, or design. that's simply what happens when you use a knife for more than opening packages.

rich,

were you to not take care of your blade the way you do, it would rust. it is just that YOU know what you're doing.

i made a mistake the other day. i cut a couple artichokes off the plants in the garden, wiped my howling rat on my pants, sheathed it, and forgot about it. when i took it out the next day it had rust spots on the blade. no pitting or anything that couldn't be beat out of the edge, just a light patina on the part of the blade used to cut the artichokes. i think that sr-101, when not cared for properly, does rust very easily. BUT, with simple precautions, it is a steel that will last a lifetime <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

chips???
or dents/nicks
chips are different than nicks and dents.

and 5160 is similar to 5200, which is similar to sr101.

by looking at them???

get out and beat on them and tell us what you find! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

hahaha... define a "nick."

i haven't "dented" any blades, per se, but have definitely rolled edged.

well, thats what I meant, like a chip is like... a CHIP, like a piece of metal removed form the steel.
a ncik, I meant like I small dent in the edge.

well, given that it can take several sharpenings to get the blade back to "perfect" i would say that metal has been removed from the blade. that, or i suck at sharpening <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Good god I spit my soda out!

I have dents that sitll aren't gone even after many sharpenings.
but either way would you call the steel "brittle?"

Hmm, though EMF was either misinformed or misspoke, it would be interesting to add 5160 to the comparison of SR-101 and INFI. In my experience, 5160 is a great combat steel because of its amazing toughness, and should be held in the pantheon of super tool steels. As far the 101/INFI comparison, I think that if you put price and performance in a ratio, you'll find that they're about equal. I would say that INFI is the best, and that their heat-treat is the best, but also that their price reflects that very accurately. Its improper to compare two steels without also addressing the disparity in price. There will be exceptions to that statement, which I'm sure people will probably point out, but thats my opinion. That point aside, I will be the first to admit that SR-101 is inferior to INFI in many ways. As for chipping, I've noticed some very small dings in my RMD, but nothing that keeps it from being REALLY REALLY sharp (as the three stitches in my finger will attest to). I've stuck the knife in the dirt when I was frenziedly keeping a fire going, and things like that, but its still a really tough steel. Sharp, a fellow member, posted a thread of him digging through several 2x4's without any damage to the tip, so very good. But you get what you pay for (the glaring exceptions being SY and occasionally syderco).


my 2c

No, Sr-101 is modified 52100.

we all know unsub is the sr 101 enthusiest here.
and I'm pretty sure he know alot about both the steels so I'll wait fro him to post.
but i'm pretty sure 5160 is similar to 52100 which is similar to sr101.

potayto potawto emf... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

brittle? i wouldn't call sr-101 brittle, in my experience, but i don't claim to know everything. i think that ANY steel that is sharpened to a fine edge, with enough abuse, will chip/roll/dent/nick in time.

one way to think about it is this: would jerry use a "brittle" steel to make the chopweiler?

Well.... I started this post a while ago and there are about 10 replies since I started. Some of my comments have been addressed. But, here is what I wrote:


I have been an avid forum member on Rat Chat and on the Bladeforums for quite some time.

To my knowledge, I have only seen or heard of ONE Single instance of any significant edge chipping. - *** And in that case, the blade had been heavily profiled with power equipment. It has been speculated that the heat treatment may have been damaged by the power equipment and that may have caused the edge to chip. But,the actual cause for failure is unknown.

"Brittle" is a relative term. I would likely argue that SR-101 is more or seems more "brittle" than SR-77 and INFI. But, I wouldn't use the word "Brittle" to describe SR-101.

SR-77 is quite malleable compared to most knife steels. This malleability helps make it tough. The edge is more prone to deform or roll than chip. But, that malleability also doesn’t allow SR-77 to stay as sharp as long as SR-101 for “certain” types of cutting.
How the blade edge deforms and wears depends on how it is used.

There have been other documented cases (about 3-4 or so) of chipped SR-77. All cases appear to be from bubbles trapped in the steel near the edge that was undetected prior to use.
I don't recall seeing any "failure" of SR-77 except for when an obvious bubble was associated with the chip and I haven't seen an SR-77 blade break except by NOSS under "Extreme" abuse.

I would NOT worry about any "significant" chipping with INFI, SR-101 or SR-77.

The Swamp Rat - Rat Trap was the only knife "to date" made with a stainless steel - S30V. For a pocket knife/folder, I consider S30V to be a great steel and great for folder knife type uses. But, it is more prone to chipping than the other 3 steels.
I know of one case where the S30V Rat Trap blade was broken. That blade was used for prying a chunk of ice. We are not sure how thick the ice was. But, the owner of the knife was a guy who seemed (IMO) seemed to be trying to cause problems. He may have tried to break it to get it replaced.

NOSS has shown that INFI and SR-77 can be broken. SR-101 can be broken as well if you try hard enough. But, if used even under normal extreme uses, they are all very tough and more than sufficient for most.

SR-101 can be sharpened to a wicked sharp edge. I have sharpened SR-101 just as shaving sharp as INFI. Same for SR-77.

Most decent knife steels can be made "Shaving sharp".
The difference is in ability to hold the edge - resistance to chipping and resistance to deforming.
INFI seems to hold an edge longest. It is highly resistant to chipping and to deforming.
But, in real world use / common heavy use, the difference of how long over SR-101 isn't much and possibly negligable. So, from what I can tell, INFI is followed closely by SR-101 and then followed by SR-77. SR-77 does NOT chip easily at all, but SR-77 is the most malleable - easiest to deform.

For most people, the edge retention of SR-101 is much better than most knives they have owned or will ever use. SR-101 has very good edge properties. But, yes INFI is still a little better.

The knife industry is getting "FULL" of great steels that can be made very sharp and hold an edge pretty well. But, many of these custom/designer steels are brittle stainless steels. And these brittle stainless steels are a bear to get sharp.

SR-101 is much tougher than most of these stainless steels and much easier to sharpen.

The biggest advantage INFI has over SR-101 is toughness. But, again, for most people, SR-101 is PLENTY tough - **** ESPECIALLY in a little knife like a Swamp Warden or similar smaller blade. To break a Swamp Warden, you would likely need to take a hammer or pipe to it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

But, even the Battle Rat, Rat Mastiff and similar LARGE SR-101 blades have a fairly unblemished history. I do NOT know of a Large Swamp Rat ever being broken. With the number of SR-101 choppers sold, wouldn't that seem like a sufficient track record???? And they all still carry the same Life-Time Warranty.

As Macgregor stated, the other advantage INFI has over SR-101 is corrosion resistance.

INFI "WILL" rust. INFI is not stainless. But, INFI has a pretty high amount of chromium for Non-stainless steel at about 8.25%. - 12% - 13% is usually considered stainless.

*** For the record, Chromium is NOT the only factor in corrosion resistance. There are other elements that factor into corrosion resistance. INFI has a few other elements that help resist corrosion more than it's 8.25% chromium.
But, Chromium is generally considered the "benchmark" for determining corrosion resistance.


There is only a small handfull of non-stainless steels with more than 5% chromium and less than 12%.

INFI - 8.25%
Cru-Wear (RARE!) - 7.5%
Vasco-Wear (RARE! and I think discontinued ?) - 7.75%
CPM 3V - 7.5% (Fairly new, but good potential to become popular.)


Actually, there is only a small handfull of non-stainless steels even between 3% and 5% - **** And while A2 is pretty common, most of the others are currently quite rare in knife making uses!!!

A2 - 4.75% - 5.5%
M2 - 3.75% - 4.5%
M4 - 4%
S7 / S7XL / SR-77 - 3.25%
CPM 10V 5.25%
CPM 1v - 4.5%
CPM 9V - 5.25%
CPM 15V - 5.25%

By far the most commonly used (* For non-stainless blades) steels have less than 1% chromium (1095, other 10xx steels, 5160, 0170-6 (50100B) and O1 probably make up about 85% of the non-stainless steels used for knives outside of Busse and kin!) :

O1 - 0.4% - 0.6%
W1 - 0.7% - 1.7%
W2 - 0.85% - 1.5%
L6 - 0.6% - 1.2%
1095 and most 10xx steels: 0%
5160 0.7% - 0.9%



SR-101 (and 52100) have 1.3% - 1.6% chromium. This is better than a large portion of common non-stainless steels.
IMO, SR-101 "can" rust fairly easily. But, the key is to know that you need to keep it dry, keep a coat of wax or oil or similar on it and it isn't much problem. Without wax or oil in a wet enviro, it will rust relatively quickly.

So, while SR-101 can rust fairly quickly and quicker than SR-77 and much quicker than INFI, it is not as bad as O1, L6, 5160, and 10xx steels.



The other BIG / HUGE difference betweem SR-101 and INFI is PRICE!!!!

INFI may hold an edge 5% - 10% better and INFI may be 50% tougher, but it costs 2 - 4 times the cost of SR-101! And I still argue that the extra toughness is RARELY a factor - ESPECIALLY in little knives like a Scotch Dispenser or Swamp Warden! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
If you break a Busse knife of any type of steel, you are using the wrong tool for the job!



For my purposes, the ONLY factors that matter to me in about most of the INFI vs. SR-101 knives is corrosion resistance and PRICE!

I hate rust. But, in most cases I can manage with it.

SR-101 is PLENTY tough enough in about 99.99% or more of all applications of SR-101.


PRICE is just HUGE! I wish INFI were more reasonable in price. I would own more. But, at it's current price, other people will have to keep INFI business flowing. Obviously, people are buying it. More power to those willing to pay that much.


If price is no object and/or you MUST have the best and/or your LIFE depends on it, INFI is the best!

But, you really shouldn't have ANY worries about betting your life on SR-101 or SR-77. They will all get the job done VERY well.


I have not handled the SD, but I don't like three-finger handles and "visually" the SD is ugly and looks horribly uncomfortable. Maybe I am wrong, but for the money, I have no interest in betting on it. I don't typically care for Skeleton knives.

The Swamp Warden apparently works for some, but I don't find the handle comfortable. It doesn't fit my hand. I wish the guard and choil had been designed differently. But, that is just my opinion. To me, the Game Warden doesn't look much better.

Honestly, the current variety of Busse smaller knives doesn't seem to fit my demands for design and ergos.
I do NOT like the 1/2" sized choils and Talon Holes on most of the Busse smaller knives. But, to each their own.

The Rat Shaker, while still a skeleton knife, at least appears like it might meet some of my requirements for a small knife. I have been curious about this knife for some time. But, haven't ever picked one up.

I am very curious to see what the next Swamp Rat 3.5" bladed knife will look like. We know it will be stainless.


The smallest "Great" designed knives from Busse (IMO) are the SS4, HRLM, Bog Dog, RMD and larger knives. And none of those are very small.

But, I admit, I am hard to please with small knives and smaller folders. I am a little fanatical about ergo details and design - especially on small knives.



*** I would love to offer my input! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ...... I have tried. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> But, I acknowledge that my design concepts are based largely on my opinion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

.

52100
Carbon 0.98 to 1.10%
Manganese 0.25 to 0.45%
Silicon 0.15 to 0.35%
Phosphorus 0.025%
Sulfur 0.025%
Chromium 1.30 to 1.60%
Molybdenum 0.10%
Nickel 0.25%
Copper 0.35%

5160
Carbon 0.56 to 0.64%
Manganese 0.75 to 1.00%
Silicon 0.15 to 0.30%
Phosphorus 0.035%
Sulfur 0%
Chromium 0.70 to 0.90%
Molbdenum 0%
Nickel 0%
Copper 0%

They are not similar at all.

Great post knifeguy, I really want a knife made of vasco-wear.
The problem is finding one since the steel is no longer produced.

I like all the talk about metal properties and such. But as to the point of INFI versus SR-101.....why are you asking us <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> You are the one with both. Go beat on them and tell us what you find.

You can analyze stuff to death, but the only that that matters in the end to me is real world performance. I am expecting a full report <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Before you get too far into your comparison, make sure you have similar edge profiles on each. I have Busse/Swamp Rat/ScrapYard edges vary WILDLY from knife to knife. A comparison wouldn't be fair unless they were as similar as you could get them. So, remedy that first.....then go to work <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

i will compare the knives as i want to... i started this thread, i am looking at THOSE 2 knives, so yea, its fair. they are both skelly knives and both are nice pieces.

brian, i have the same edges on each of the knives. they are both razor sharp as they came from the factories.

knifeguy - good post, you wrote a book. some good info but i disagree with you on the skelly knives/smaller knives. to each his own.

interesting thread guys, keep the thoughts coming!

It does sound like you understand Brian by saying "same edges", but just to clarify, Brian wasn't (only) referring to level of sharpness. He was referring to edge profiles which is mostly related to bevel angle but also height, thickness of edge bevel and even primary grind angles can be a factor - along with level of sharpness. There are multiple factors to consider for calling the edges the same. Brian is quite knowledgeable about knife edges and geometry. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Congrats on receiving two factory edges that are both razor sharp! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I have to be honest, in the many years I have been buying Busse and kin knives and probably over 40 knives, I have only received about 4-5 that were sharp enough to slice cut paper "moderately well". Two of those were fairly recent with my Chopweiler and DFLE both being able to slice cut "moderately well". And yet those were not "razor sharp" by my definition. Further more, "razor sharp" is a relative term. Some razors are much sharper than others. A great edge on a good quality knife can be sharper than many razors! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

None of my Busse and/or kin blades have ever been able to push cut.
With the exception of that small handful that could "slice" cut, most of the other Busse and kin blades I have received over the years would not "slice" cut (draw cut) through paper. They tore and shredded paper.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ....Sorry - just stating the facts related to "my" knives on this one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I have read other people stating: "Razor sharp" and "shaving sharp" and such. And I concede it is possible. But, I tend to assume there might be varying interpretations of the terms used. And/or I also concede that I might just have bad luck with Busse and kin factory sharpness. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />





Thanks. I appreciate that you might have found value in my post.

No worries on disagreeing about skelly knives/smaller knives. I like the disclaimer "to each his own". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> I try to use it myself when appropriate. No doubt - design preferences are subject to opinion.

Hopefully, it was clear in my post that certain views are just my opinion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


I will "suggest" the possibility (and admit) that over time ones preferences in design "sometimes" change. There are (almost) as many possible reasons for an individuals preferences to change over time as there are reasons for different people to have different preferences. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

....... I won't try to make a list of possible reasons. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



---------------------


In a possibly vain attempt to shorten and summarize my opinion of comparing INFI vs. SR-101:

If you use your knives to "cut", most people will not see many advantages in the actual function of INFI vs. SR-101.
"Most" people will find it hard to abuse smaller knives enough to notice edge performance advantages or toughness advantages between INFI and SR-101. However, some people beat the heck out of even their small knives .....

If you beat on your knives, do heavy duty chopping and/or abuse the heck out of them, over time , you might notice some value in INFI. But, you will not likely do "significant" damage to either. Neither is likely to "fail". Both hold great edges. Both sharpen well. And both are VERY tough compared to most knifes in the industry. If there is one thing Busse does best, it is provide industry leading knife "steel". SR-101 and SR-77 have industry leading qualities even if the qualities differ a little. Sometimes the given steels just need to be well matched with knife designs for intended purposes. But, many people here have multiple preferences and/or purposes for how they want steel and given knife designs to perform.

One thing is reasonably fair to say: INFI covers the broadest ranges of functional use and abuse. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

But, a fair questions to ask (IMO) are: What do you really need your knife to do? And what compromises are you willing to make?

If you beat the holy snot out of your knives for the fun of trying to destroy it like NOSS or because of some extreme situation, then you will likely appreciate the toughness of INFI. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


Sometimes, (I think often around here) many people just want the mental assurance of owning the toughest knife possible. Even if other choices are actually tough enough. It seems to me that many people consider toughness as a single factor to outweigh any and all other factors - even compromises. However, I concede that making toughness a priority "might" be a justifiable priority for any given individual - to each their own. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Otherwise, the primary differences are corrosion resistance and price.


Price "IS" a factor..... and a compromise.
"Value" and "cost" are both relative terms. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

.

I think an underrated variable here is availability from company stores vs secondary market. This obviously overlaps cost in general, and varies with time, but INFI from the store is only slightly more expensive than SR-101 or SR-77 on the secondary market. something to consider. Of course, if you are patient enough to wait for INFI in the store, you'll probably see SR steels in the stores as well. I love all of them. To me its more an issue of design. All other things being equal though, I'd pay extra for INFI, and I'd even pay extra for Res-C if it was an option with INFI. Not because I think it should cost more, but because I definitely like it more.

great post knifeguy and darkaether.
you both brought up some good points.
mac: w/e, I was under the impression they were similar, (when actually using them, not just looking at there properties) maybe someone can clarify this.
all I said was that I haave used 5160, I never said it IS like sr101 or anything, just trying to show this from a users standpoint.

have you ever used 5200 or 5160???

Bruce, so you would say 5200 and 5160 aren't alike? (more from a users standpoint)
because I think you would know more than me.

and... I don't see anything in that post... I guess you could call them "facts" it just doesn't tell me much.

sorry, I editd my post, I was just saying that I know sr101 isn't modified 5160.
but w/e.
this thread is about INFI vs sr101 so lets not hijack it any further... I wish I could find some old posts... but I'm terrible searching (the SY forum) even with google.
oh well.

I have to agree with Knifeguy on this one. I've never seen a factory Busse blade that was more than 'approaching' sharp.

knifeguy, i think we have a different definition of "razor sharp." only non sharp knife i have received has been a scrap yard blade..... ironically. busse and sr always send me sharp pieces.

can you honestly say that you've ever received a Busse Kin blade as sharp as your Spyderco?

I know MY DFLE could shave the hair off my arm, I would say that is "shaving sharp"
but I din't think it was "scary sharp"
...
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
and my yardkeeper was aproaching sharp, but because of it's better profile it could push cut paper.

these are just words ("scary sharp" "shaving sharp" ect.)
but I was just letting you know what they mean to me.

I would say the DFLE had the perfect factroy edge, I wouldn't want a knife (one that was meant for hard use, like a 10 Inch chopper would be) too sharp, because I would think it might roll or damage easier.

I agree with EMF. While I have no experience with SY knives, I remember that my RMD came nicely sharpened. It was a while ago, so I don't totally remember, but it quickly reached really scary sharp.

As for hard use knives, its hard to know exactly how sharp hard use knives should be, but my RTAK is very sharp and I've never had issues at all with rolling or denting... except when I struck a rock with the trip, but even those dents are sharpening out


I've used my RMD really hard, and the thin, sharp edge has held up without flinching

I think that has something to do with steel too.
sharp may have no problems with his RMD's razor sharp edge.
but where sr77 is more easily deformed so it might roll or dent easier.

although I think since we are talking about INFI and sr101 it doesn't matter, since they may be pretty close in that area.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

no but i never equate anything betwwen busse and spyderco.

busse = abrahams tank
spyderco = makeshift afghan armored go cart


spydercos blades are thinner, but i can tell u that my busse SD'S AND SWARDENS ARE SHARP AS I DONT KNOW WHAT!

back to the original threads topic before it was hijacked...


infi vs sr101...

so... infi is less likely to rust and twice as tough but this cant be seen in a knife as small as the sd or swarden????

SR101 Brittle....I don't think so, check out this thread....

http://www.swampratknifeworks.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000048

reconseed - <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Spyderco is another great knife company with amazing customer service. We just went over this in another thread, if you want to badmouth other companies find another forum in which to do it.

I agree, basically, you're not breaking either of them...
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
and INFI doesn't have that huge of an advantage in the edge holding.

still, to some, just knowing they have the toughest knife out there can be nice.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

and I think it was overlooked before in the midst of some other stuff, but one guy beat on an m6 for 6-8 hours with a pipe wrench (I'm pretty sure) and it still survived.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

andy might be able to find the thread for you.

As regards comparing the Scotch dispenser and the SwampWarden I would take the Warden in a heart beat just because the SD is the ugliest knife that Busse have made this side of the Sus-Scrofa <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" />....obviously that's just appearance as their performance will always be up to Busse's high standard.
The Warden looks a sweet knife though and would always be welcome in my meager collection !!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think referring to something as a "makeshift afghan armored go cart" is pretty clear Bruce. It certainly does not reflect well on Spyderco, actually it reflects quite poorly which is why I brought it up. There was no need for it and it was very much uncalled for.

Spyderco rock !...


Now big group hug and back to the debate !!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

More of a minion to the real Boss actually! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I wouldn't say INFI is twice as tough. I seriously doubt this and have never seen anything to support that INFI is that much tougher.

I said INFI "MAY" be 50% tougher.
Twice as tough would be 100% tougher!

I said 50% trying to point out theoretical best case scenario in context with trying to make a point about cost.
I don't believe INFI is actually even 50% tougher in most cases.

There is no simple realistic way to actually measure toughness. And toughness can be defined or shown in different ways.

For the most part, we are really just generalizing with toughness.

The term: "Toughness" is fairly vague in reference to a wide range of types of knives and different ways to determine or "speculate" about toughness.

Further, keep in mind that Swamp Rat SR-101 comes two ways: "through hardened" for most smaller knives and "Differentially heat treated" for most (not all) larger knives.


The differentially heat treated blades have the spines hardened at a lower level.

This makes the blade tougher over-all - in "some" ways.

But, at the same time, the softer spine is much easier to ding up.

So, tougher in some ways and less tough in others. Too hard to define.

But, for the record, there were a couple of versions of the Battle Rat that were made with through hardened SR-101 and I have seen some of those used extremely hard with no failure or significant damage.

A fair debate could probably be waged about through hardened SR-101 vs. Differentially heat treated SR-101


------------

Yes, "INFI is less likely to rust." - Or, SR-101 is more prone to rust. - Or SR-101 rusts easier.


----------------




INFI is tougher than SR-101 by most any realistic method of determining toughness.

I never said that the level of toughness can't be seen in a knife as small as the SD or Swamp Warden.

I said:
"Most" people will find it hard to abuse smaller knives enough to notice edge performance advantages or toughness advantages between INFI and SR-101.

That is not saying you can't beat your INFI and SR-101 knives enough to notice a "Difference". I am sure you can. But, most people don't generate enough torque on their smaller knives and/or don't beat the snot out of their smaller knives to "realistically" notice "much" difference.

Aside from corrosion and price, most people are not going to beat their knives hard enough to "appreciate" the differences between INFI and SR-101 even if they might notice some slight subtle differences - "Especially" on smaller knives!

If you are at war, a SAR guy, or going into an "Extreme" scenario where you know you life might very likely be on the line and your knife might need to take some of the most extreme punishment you can give it, then the extra cost for INFI would very likely be worth it.

For EDC on your motorcycle and for whatever normal EDC type cutting chores most people would normally be able to throw at a knife, SR-101 is VERY tough and PLENTY tough.

I have seen SR-101 chop through cinder blocks and cut through nails. It is very possible to torture test knife steels to much more severity. But, I don't even chop through cinder blocks OR nails. So, I am quite confident it is plenty tough for me.

To each his own.

------------------------

RS,

You said:



Busse/INFI is probably an abrahams tank in the knife world. I would say in most cases (not never) that Busse and Spyderco are not comparable.

But, for more realistic analogies, let's just say Busse/INFI is more like a full size Hummer.

SR-101 would probably be a souped up H2.

Spyderco is more like a Honda. - Various models from Civic to Accord to Various Lexus models! Very well made and very practical. Tough enough for most EDC. Some tougher than others. Spyderco uses a LARGE variety of different types of steels and is very respected for there over-all quality in steel and fit and finish.

One might wonder if the Rat Trap was made by Spyderco.

The recent Spyderco Mule was made of 52100 (similar to SR-101). So, don't assume that Spyderco doesn't use some very tough steel from time to time.
Rumor has it they might try M4 soon. Spyderco just uses a large variety of steels and tries to target a broad market of uses and needs. Most of Spydercos market is looking for a well made folder that "Cuts" and performs extremely well with reasonable amounts of toughness. Spyderco is a successful company for a reason!
Personally, I don't like thumb-holes on my folders. I find this unfortunate, because otherwise, I think Spyderco makes some outstanding knives. I have a large number of fixed Spyderco knives including the Temperance which I consider a great knife. VG-10 is not as tough as SR-101, but it is very good knife steel if you need a knife and not a hammer or pry-bar. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
However, for the record, VG-10 "CAN" be batoned quite well! Not trying to get going on Spyderco, VG-10 or other makers and other steels. So, I will stop there.



.

I was recently promoted. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/paperbag.gif" alt="" />

BLD - you were correct. I wasnt ragging on Spyderco. Cold One jumps at every chance to bust my balls on anything it seems.

He took my words out of context, notice how he only posted ONE LINE from my posting....

So, I will explain myself. I said what Cold One took out of context in reference to Busse and their toughness. I WASNT down-grading Spyderco. And Cold One has no idea how i feel about spyderco so for him to speak up for me, on my thread, is uncalled for. I happen to love spyderco. i own MANY blades by them. however, when looking at the topic at hand (the discussion and comparison between 2 HARD USE TOUGH steels) spyderco doesnt relate or compare.

I like spyderco, and i love Busse Combat. But since a Mod hijacked my thread and diverted the discussion from the topic we were discussing, I'm done with it.

Knifeguy - again, thank you for taking the thread seriously man. You posted very good information and i enjoyed reading your thoughts. Im glad you caught on to my busse/spyderco statement, b/c cold one sure didnt...

Its 52100 not 5200.
And those are the facts of it, each element in the steel and the % of it in it adds to the steels properties.

I have never used sr-101 or 52100 but eather have you.
Looking at it from a metallurgical standpoint 5160 and 52100 are very different.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and actually agree with Recon. I understood what he meant by the Spyderco comment and didn't think he was ragging on Syderco at all. That said it's never a good idea to publicly sass a mod. Take it to PM's if you have an issue.

Just my 2 cents that no one asked for.

yeah, sorry.
from a metallurgical point, they are different.
I WAS under the impression from a users standpoint they had some similar properties??? (maybe thats not the right word) or "behaved" alike.
and I don't know why I kept tping 5200 or 52000 or w/e.
sorry.

and No I have not used any sr101.
I was just wondering if you had and new something I didn't.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

recon: I think coldone mentioned something from another thread???
if you did "badmouth" (not saying you did, but obviously something "happened") a company or somehting in another thread
that may have lead him to believe you meant to or were badmouthing spyderco.
but I think i did understand where you were coming from.
but since all he gave was a warning,you could've just explained yourself/re-worded your post.
maybe next time that'd be a better idea.

(just trying to help BTW <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)

No, it broke in half: Just broke my M6 in half

This thread is like a TV show.
Very entertaining!

For some of you(not naming names)

You should try what I do.

Keep my mouth shut unless I know what I'm talking about.

Sorry not trying to bust anyones chops.

Also Recon, If you talked to a Mod like that on some other forums, well let's

just say you woudn't be posting anymore <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

LOL

AFTER!
but yeah... I should've said "one guy beat on an m6 with a pipe wrench for 6-8 hours BEFORe it broke"
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
bust I think anyone would've got the point.
cause it broke later... NICK!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


(lol that was pretty funny though)

(not THAT Jerry) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

that explains your low post count.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />
(I can't be the ONLY one looking stupid in this thread. [though I'm sure I am]

and if anyone says that old Abe Lincoln quote I swear!!!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)

This thread is over at this point.

Reconseed - Several are right here with how you choose to handle it. I did go back and look at your statement from another view and while it less offensive it still skates the line of questionable considering what the Yard is about as well as how the company compares. There are many other ways in which you could have worded your opinions of the blades without taking the approach you chose.

Your reaction to my post however is over the top as pointed our by other members. Consider yourself on a timeout until the 30th at which point, barring anything else, I will unlock your account.