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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260939 02/07/09 09:18 PM
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more great info from steel fan!


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260940 02/08/09 02:52 AM
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Hi Mac,

The .300 Win Mag is a belted case and personally I prefer a none belted case...which when you learn re-loading you will see why...you get much better case life and accuracy from none belted cases if looked after properly...but this is accuracy at extreme ranges...after weighing and batching cases...testing them with water for inner volume capacity and wanting the re-loaded rounds to be "clones" of each other. For factory ammo...it makes no odds...but saying it simple...you can seat a round which is none belted off the shoulder...just use a neck die and fully re-sized die after say every 5 uses and use them 15 times max if they are good brass. A belted case needs the dies tweaking carefully if you need to fully re-size to still have the round seated off the shoulder and not off the belt. They are tricky for extreme range and are not used by the worlds top shooters for this reason...they were designed for safe re-loading on dangerous game...ideally in a double rifle...so it is "horses for courses"...you can get belted cases to extract well if they are the rimmed type of rounds for double rifle use. If you are using them in a bolt action follow Tolly's advice and get a Mauser Action with a controlled feed bolt. They dont work well in large cartridges with a push feed system.

If you are thinking of an option for a second rifle for long range shooting which you can use in F Class comps which can be shot economically...as the .338 LM is expensive and whilst legal as a calibre in the US for F Class is not legal for international use...I would look at a straight .284 Winchester...it is a 7mm case and you can shoot it cheap with Winchester brass or competitively using Lapua 6.5 x 284 brass necked up to 7mm. Use either Berger 180 grain HPBT's or the sierra 175 grain HPBT...Bergers are better but more expensive.
This round won the US Nationals in 2008...so nothing is better in my opinion.
It is a custom round and would take a custom barrel but the round count is good with this round and you will have a platform to build skill on right to the very top. Bartlein barrels are near you in Wisconsin or atleast are not at the other end of the country...Tracy there is the guy to speak to...Kelbly's is in Ohio from memory and they can do an action...the Stolle Panda is good...a BAT action is better...they are single shot bench rest actions...a rifle like this costs a bit but then it is there for the rest of your life...and you can have multiple barrel/calibre options by simply changing the barrel. Single shot is no disadvantage when you hit what you aim at.... A lighter profile varmint barrel is a great all rounder...you can carry it and still compete...26 inches would be my choice as an all rounder and a half inch at the mussle on a straight taper. Similar spec's to many sniping rifles. Hunting with it is fine as it is not too heavy...

The Arktis jacket is used by some of our Police guys in Black....not my choice...here is a link to a company which makes jackets in Ventile...I went for a triple layer Ventile jacket which was custom built in forest green...it is a version of their Artic Smock with a full length zip and whilst not cheap gives 25 years of use and not 2 to 5. You want press studs on the pockets not velcro as it is too noisy...and ask for some spare studs which can be fitted at home by anyone...they are the weakest issue...but velcro really "rips" when out hunting at dawn and dusk. Mine cost £245 but is well worth it...I got some inside pockets done and a shoulder pen pocket...if you're interested they will remember my order spec's.

http://www.west-winds.co.uk/ventilejackets.htm

The sallopettes in the same colour are also great...if you wear a rucksack/deer sack the sallopettes stop trousers falling down around your backside when carrying heavy weights or when crawling...particularly the latter...they also keep your kidneys warm and over the years prevent a "lower back" arthritic complaint...again they are'nt cheap but worth it.

Forget rear back pockets...a pain in a high seat and if wearing webbing...plus if you use them the slinging of your rifle is difficult as is using a drag bag for the rifle for range use with your gear in it as you cannot carry it like a ruck sack easily...use webbing for heavy gear if need be. I have belt webbing or a molle vest which I can attach a Ghillie cape to...and kit the belt kit/vest out to suit me....the vest can take a Camel Back for water and takes my shooting sticks and my other gear. But this set up is more military than hunting.

However here is the web site for getting a good Ghillie cape without the hours needed to make your own...this lite weight poncho is best but you need to cut away around the bottom at the front for leg movement...do little bits after testing but you will need a fair bit off this to be comfortable walking...check out the other capes for an idea of what I mean. It can fit over a small rucksack etc and can be quicly removed and put in the sack so you don't scare the sheeple...makes a cammo jacket look like a hi-visibility vest...I use this with my Ventile gear so I can take it off and go in the pub for a pint and leave my rucksack etc in the corner or in the car...go light weight on this stuff...the heavy is "heavy" when wet. Hood up and simply crouched down on one knee and I have had foxes and deer come within feet of me if I have the wind right and have called them in.

http://www.ghilliesuits.com/paintballghillieponcho-1.aspx

Thanks SteelFan,

I'm going to stick with .308 for my next rifle then because its popular and common.

So does that west winds company have a custom shop then, did you just call them and tell them what you wanted?
They look like they make nice stuff.

I made my own ghille a couple years ago with a bdu base and used the rubber leaf neting with plenty of jute tied on.
My complaint about it is that its heavy and it can't be taken off because that my outer layer plus the one arm interferes when bow hunting.
I was going to throw some serious cash down and buy one of these.
http://www.tacticalconcealment.com/pd_ghillieskins.cfm
I didn't think of modifying a premade ghille though, I will go with that which is probly way more economical.


JYD#49
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260941 02/10/09 02:59 AM
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Yes Westwinds make all their Ventile Jackets to your order...so you can customise their standard range. E-mail would be better than calling them.

Good luck with the .308...there is plenty of info on this calibre so you should find the ability to learn with this easily done...Plaster's book is good with this calibre...but it is not an easy calibre to shoot well at long range. At 1000 yards a good .308 HPBT will move 1 MOA for every 1mph of full value cross wind...that is 10 inches...and it is hard to pick up wind changes in 3 mph increases when it is blowing...but at lower wind changes Mirage is your friend.

Good Luck...if you master the .308...the rest is easier...the .338 LM will seem much less troublesome to make wind calls with in comparison.


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Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260942 02/10/09 03:22 AM
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THis thread keeps on getting better


JYD #59 1LT Clark Tucker OD, Platoon LDR US Army
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260943 02/11/09 01:34 AM
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Yes Westwinds make all their Ventile Jackets to your order...so you can customise their standard range. E-mail would be better than calling them.

Good luck with the .308...there is plenty of info on this calibre so you should find the ability to learn with this easily done...Plaster's book is good with this calibre...but it is not an easy calibre to shoot well at long range. At 1000 yards a good .308 HPBT will move 1 MOA for every 1mph of full value cross wind...that is 10 inches...and it is hard to pick up wind changes in 3 mph increases when it is blowing...but at lower wind changes Mirage is your friend.

Good Luck...if you master the .308...the rest is easier...the .338 LM will seem much less troublesome to make wind calls with in comparison.

Thanks mate.

Speaking of wind, do you recommend any certain brand of wind meter?
Thinking of getting one someday, just wondering.

-Mac


JYD#49
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: macgregor] #260944 02/11/09 11:50 AM
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The best windmeters are made by Kestrel. I started with their 3000 model and upgraded to their 4500NV.

[Linked Image from i343.photobucket.com]

They don't just read the wind...they are barometers, a compass, an altimeter and a thermometer. They can assimilate this information and give combined data...readings such as density altitude are relevant for shooting...but if mountaineering things like wind chill and Pressure Trend's are useful...one for a warmth assessment and the other for determining advancing bad weather. As far as shooting goes the information you need to take and understand is basically as follows....

Windspeed and direction comparative to the intended flight of the bullet. At a right angle to the bullet path it is "full value"...or for me I prefer to think in terms of "clock face" directions..."full value" is 9 o'clock or 3 o'clock then you have 2/3rds value at 8 and 2 or 10 and 4...and 1/3 value at 11 and 5 and 1 and 7 with a head wind at 12 and a tail wind at 6. The angles of the wind have differing effects on bullet movement in flight.

Altitude combined with Barometric pressure gives information as to the density of the air you are shooting in...thinner air at altitude provides less resistance on the bullets progress...in simple terms the bullet travels faster...this impacts on the elevation adjustment needed.

Direction of shot impacts at long range because of the coriolis effect of the earth spining and how this effects gravitational pull...coriolis is basically understood by which way water runs down a plug hole...this differs between the Northern and Southern hemispheres...combine this with the axis of the earth and you have the equivalent of g force or pull on the bullet when travelling through the air...this varies according to the direction you shoot in and according to a Northern or Southern hemisphere location. A complicated issue but made easier by modern ballistic programmes which if loaded on a multi function mobile phone or on a pocket note book enable you to work these out by simply adding the relevant data and it doing it for you.

Another issue which these programmes address is "spin drift" of the bullet. This is caused by the direction of the rifling in the barrel. Most rifling is a right hand twist meaning the twist of the rifle goes from right to left...rarely you could have a custom barrel done with left hand twist...I have never encountered this. In essence the bullet spining "clockwise" causes it to drift in direction to the "right" over distance. It is to do with air density and cutting a swathe through it by spinning in one direction. On average a right twist barrel causes bullet drift of 1 MOA or 10 inches right at 1000 yards...but again this varies on air density.

Then after this is "velocity" of the bullet...whilst the bullet is supersonic it progresses in a relatively uniform direction...when it enters a "transonic" velocity as it progresses towards subsonic velocity it starts to wobble and can destabilise...with a .308 at 1000 yards it is not uncommon to see bullets of certain design enter targets side ways...the bullet at that distance has tumbled due to velocity decreasing below the supersonic threshold of 1000 fps but there is good evidence that there are problems created in the band of 1100 fps to 1000 fps or the "transonic period".

Finally there is the design of the bullet itself...this is referred to as the BC or ballistic co-efficient of the bullet. Like the hull of a racing yacht some bullets have less drag going through the air as do hulls going through the sea. They also resist sideways drift from the wind better than other designs because they offer a more sleaker shape. Shooting a .308 you need to pay very careful attention to bullet choice at distance...a 155g HPBT/VLD bullet seems to be the best choice for 1000 yards but heavier bullets do retain momentum better and some have tried 175g HPBT/VLD designs...it can also be a "barrel" specific thing as to which shoots best as well...but all told...a .308 is right on the cusp of failing at 1000 yards and is a challenge to shoot it at that distance...because the lower the velocity at this distance the greater the wind movement of the bullet. To shoot this calibre well at distances like this you definately need a 30 inch barrel to maximise the velocity gained from the powder charge in the case. A stalking length barrel will struggle and really for sniping rifles at 24 or 26 inch barrels the maximum effective range is for most locations at Sea Level about 800 yards. You can do further in higher altitude/thinner air locations.

So aside from a wind meter you should consider a range finder as well. The bino's in the above photo are Lieca Geovids with a built in laser range finder good for 1200 yards...unknown distance shooting is made a lot easier with this method of "knowing" the distance.

To maximise your scope elevation movement you would need an incline rail for the action...the one pictured is inclined at 20 MOA downwards to give a 100 yard zero at the beginning of the scopes vertical travel of there abouts. It makes up for the alteration needed because of the height of the scope above the bore of the rifle.

Having covered scopes and rifle calibre choice once you have an inclined rail and good mounts and a wind meter and a range finder...the last thing you need is a ballistic programme. There are many out there...the ones I like are two matching products....one software programme works on your laptop and is called Precision Shooter's Workbench and the other works on a phone/note book and is called Feild Firing Solutions...both are made by Lex Talus and can be found by going to www.lextalus.com and ordered and downloaded on line. The benefit of these is in a nutshell...they allow for 3 different wind conditions prevelant on the bullet flight path...which at long range is often the case because of topography such as hills...valleys...etc...which the wind will deflect off or be sheltered from...and these programmes enable a true click value for your scope to be entered...the best you can do on a scope is have "consistancy" usually...and the true click value is often not exactly 1/4 MOA or whatever the click value...this induces error when clicking for a distance shot...so once you have calibrated your scope properly...ideally in a tunnel range...you can work out the true click value and add this into the programme.

So really there is quite a lot needed on top of your rifle and scope and bullets...but it is a challenging hobby to get to grips with...when you do and you get this base knowledge...then the learning curve starts on assessing the land features you are shooting over and how these will effect your shot as well as the wind. This is why a long range shot is "composed"....but there is tremendous satisfaction in hitting something in a different Zip Code to where you take the shot from...plus with bullet flight time you can take the shot...recover ... and then watch to see if it hits...but you need a highpowered Scope for this and in truth it is often a quick second shot taken aiming off from the first impact which gives you your "hit"...especially at over a mile. Let me know though how you get on....like you said earlier...building skills at 300 yards works for 1000 yard shooting.

Here is a good link to learn the basic effects of spin drift ( gyroscopic drift ) and coriolis effect for shooting in the USA...

http://bryanlitz.bravehost.com/GyroCor.html

Bryan is a good long distance shooter and designs aerodynamic aspects on missiles...so he has a brain much better than mine for getting this stuff "explained" easily. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Steel Fan; 02/11/09 05:19 PM.

JYD #75
Re: .270 Win or .30-06 [Re: Steel Fan] #260945 02/11/09 09:56 PM
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macgregor Offline
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Thanks alot again SteelFan.
I borrow a laser rangefinder but I will buy one along with the Kestrel, probly will ask for the two for my birthday.
The coriolis effect, humidity, and spin-drift are more things I have to wrap my head around.
I have a good foundation on the effects of temperature though, having many pilots in the family.

Learnin.


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