What is the difference between the two (2) steels? (Sorry, rookie metallurgist here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/paperbag.gif" alt="" />)

154CM is an improved 440C, it is relatively large grained with large carbides. The large carbides can rip out of the edge and form micro serrations. CPM is the same steel but powdered first, making it much more finely grained. CPM steels tend to be significant improvements over the 'parent' steel.

A great example is D2. Most D2 can be brittle once it reaches a certain stress loading, it also will be effected by water etc in what is being cut, reducing its edge retention. CPM D2 is stronger and better able to sustain stress before failure, it is also less influenced by water etc.

At least this is my understanding.

Great explanation, thank you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

So 440C is also a stainless steel?

What's the deal with the "powdered" steel?

i think the powdered steels are just more fine grain.

and yup 440C is a stainless

Cool! Thank MC <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Below is a brief explanation of conventional versus CPM steel. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Conventional Steelmaking vs.Particle Metallurgy Processing

Conventional steelmaking begins by melting the steel in a large electric arc furnace. It is usually followed by a secondary refining process such as Argon Oxygen Decarburization (AOD). After refining, the molten metal is poured from the furnace into a ladle, and then teemed into ingot molds.

Although the steel is very homogeneous in the molten state, as it slowly solidifies in the molds, the alloying elements segregate resulting in a non-uniform as-cast microstructure. In high speed steels and high carbon tool steels, carbides precipitate from the melt and grow to form a coarse intergranular network. Subsequent mill processing is required to break up and refine the microstructure, but the segregation effects are never fully eliminated. The higher the alloy content and the higher the carbon content, the more detrimental are the effects of the segregation on the resultant mechanical properties of the finished steel product.

The CPM process also begins with a homogeneous molten bath similar to conventional melting. Instead of being teemed into ingot molds, the molten metal is poured through a small nozzle where high pressure gas bursts the liquid stream into a spray of tiny spherical droplets. These rapidly solidify and collect as powder particles in the bottom of the atomization tower. The powder is relatively spherical in shape and uniform in composition as each particle is essentially a micro-ingot which has solidified so rapidly that segregation has been suppressed. The carbides which precipitate during solidification are extremely fine due to the rapid cooling and the small size of the powder particles. The fine carbide size of CPM steel endures throughout mill processing and remains fine in the finished bar.

The powder is screened and loaded into steel containers which are then evacuated and sealed. The sealed containers are hot isostatically pressed (HIP) at temperatures approximately the same as those used for forging. The extremely high pressure used in HIP consolidates the powder by bonding the individual particles into a fully dense compact. The resultant microstructure is homogeneous and fine grained and, in the high carbon grades, exhibits a uniform distribution of tiny carbides. Although CPM steels can be used in the as-HIP condition, the compacts normally undergo the same standard mill processing used for conventionally melted ingots, resulting in improved toughness.

This seems like a very possible scenario IMO. I had considered this as well since the blade design seems so popular that they may do both. Considering how many variations there were on the DM and how Jerry is with INFI, this seems to be a pretty stong possibility and not unreasonable.

Jerry isn't likely (IMO) to want to give Scrap Yard "unlimited" S5LE's in INFI. I think Dan being able to get INFI for us would be impressive enough. But, Dan will want to keep the price reasonable ( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />) and Jerry can only justify so much low priced INFI to Scrap Yard.
And the popularity of this model if priced right by Dan, would cause the rotational gravity forces to shift after Wauseon has to ship so many S5LE's around the world. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

So, a true "LE" ("Limited" Edition - and numbered) might be how an INFI S5LE (if an option <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) goes.

Personally, while I understand why an INFI edition might be Limited, I don't really care about numbers on my blade. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> - However, I know others DO care about some "possibility" of tracking down (trading for) their JYD numbers. So, more power to those. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> I just consider that an unknown gamble and a hassle.
It might be worth a bit more to me "IF" I could get me JYD number directly from the factory.
Personally, I have a whole bunch of "Numbers" on a fair number of my LE knives that mean absolutely nothing to me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> .... and I had to pay more to get a number stamped on my blade that means nothing to me - when ALL I wanted was SATIN. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

******** I just want "SATIN" blades at good prices. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

And since I can't get "MY" JYD number from the factory and have to jump through so many hoops to "See" if I can track it down, I don't see ANY personal interest in the numbers - OR paying more for a number that means NOTHING to me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

But, again, I guess I am glad for those who can get them who want them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

..... getting on a tangent - sorry, but a bit related maybe. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, because of the likely HIGH demand for an INFI LE, and because of the likely unsatisfied demand being met on S5LE's, I can see where the S5LE might just require some later follow up runs made in 154CM. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Personally, whether I buy or not depends on the price. $200.00 for this knife in INFI and satin is likely more than I am willing to pay and able to justify with finances as they are right now.

I would personally hope for INFI on the S5LE for sure. It is the best steel I know of for fixed bladed knives over 4". But, for me, I think the price needs to be closer to the $160 - $169 mark. Otherwise, I will just have to be happy with my WAY worthy and WAY fine SR-101.

If the S5LE is in 154CM, I think the price needs to be very close to the $120 price point for me to be interested. If it is closer to $120, I would likely argue that INFI "is" worth an extra $40 or so over 154CM. But, for me, I don't think I see the value in an extra $80 or so for INFI over 154CM - So, depending on "PRICE", I may very well argue that I consider 154CM sufficiently worthy, a very good steel with VERY good qualities for a knife the size of a S5LE and "possibly" a better value.

In regards to 154CM, I am certain it is plenty tough for 99% of it's users on a blade this size. It is stainless - so no corrosion issues worth discussing. And 154CM "CAN" be made VERY sharp and it will hold it's edge VERY long. But, it is a bit hard to sharpen - especially compared to SR-101, INFI and most other non-stainless steels.

**** And if a S5LE in INFI is close to $200, I especially don't see the value of DOUBLE the price of SR-101 on a knife like this.

I LOVE INFI, but to me INFI is only a "Bit" better than SR-101 for "my" uses. Since I can't concieve breaking SR-101, the extra toughness has very little and quite possibly no real-world, real-use, functional value to me. The extra toughness is there. But, in MOST likelihood, the only value is in my head - especially in a 5" bladed knife. But, I have HEAVILY used my Battle Rat and have SEEN many LARGE chopper SR-101 blades heavily abused without failure. So, if I can take my BR or CT and use the HECK out of it with NO concerns about failure, I just SERIOUSLY have NO concerns about needing more toughness than SR-101 on a 5" blade! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> - Granted, in the (never happened in MY life so far) scenario where I might want to destroy a Sherman tank or your typical freeway overpass, mountain, skyscraper or similar, I think SR-101 is plenty tough! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

In case missed by some, INFI can be broken too. So, while INFI may be UBER-Tough, EXTREMELY HARD to break and a bit tougher than SR-101, I still use my knives like knives! Even the INFI ones. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
And if I need a PRY-BAR, I use one of my MANY VERY good HEAVY-DUTY "UBER-Tough" pry-bars that I own for $10 - 20 each!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
I already mentioned, but again, to me the only advantage in INFI on this S5 is corrosion resistance. And the LE vs. CG gives you a satin finish - which I prefer! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

So, considering the only slightly percievable real world advantages (mostly in corrosion - which is not an issue for so many people who like coatings and will leave their coatings on their knives) I personally will take ANY knife in SR-101 at half the price of INFI ANY day and EVERY time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> - It really is a no brainer to me.

INFI "Does" have value over SR-101 to me. But, NOT double the value and nowhere near double the value on a knife sized like the S5.

Truthfully, I think 154CM is sufficiently tough for a knife sized like the S5. And 154CM is stainless which is lower maintenance than SR-101.

Truthfully, as far as I can tell, the main real-world noticable differences pros/cons between 154CM and SR-101 in a knife this size are:

154CM:
Pros: Stainless - So, effectively corrosion proof (close enough), holds an edge a bit longer
Cons: Not as tough as SR-101, but tough enough for MOST, and harder to sharpen

SR-101:
Pros: Easier to sharpen - which is noticable. And tougher than 154CM, but this is not likely to matter to most.
Cons: Corrosion resistance. If SR-101 coated, this shouldn't matter much - although letting an edge get a LOT of rust will degrade sharpness, so I still would maintain dry or protect with lube/wax.


I just happen to be VERY fond of how SR-101 works. I like how it sharpens and the edges I can get, I like how it holds it's edge and I find it PLENTY tough.

Personally, I think the level of corrosion potential of SR-101 has been BLOWN out of proportion by some around here.
YES - SR-101 will rust.
YES - INFI is reasonably easy to maintain and much more resistant to corrosion.
Yes - SR-77 is a bit more resistant to rust than SR-101, but not a HUGE difference. And SR-77 will rust too.

No, if you look at SR-101 sideways, it will not rust.

But, if you leave SR-101 wet in a sheath or out in a lawn covered with dew over-night, yes, it will have rust on it the next day. However, it will be a LIGHT surface rust that is easy to buff off. If coated, all you have is a tiny bit on the edge.

SR-101 is NOT as prone to rust as MANY other VERY popular, high performance carbon steels like 1095, 5160, O1 and others.

Some of the MOST respected knife companies in the world use steels more prone to rust than SR-101.

Randall knives - O1
Ranger knives - 5160
Ontario "Randall - Rat" series - 1095

Like SR-101, these steels are easy to sharpen, take a VERY keen sharp edge and are VERY tough.

Like SR-101, probably one of the most important aspects to how well they function is the heat-treatment. But, Busse heat-treatment is WELL respected. So, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

But, personally, I think SR-101 is better across the board AND more resistant to corrosion than those highly popular steels!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Also, if you know about SR-101, a bit of MANY lube or wax options is all you need, EASY to apply and EASY to maintain SR-101.

Satin finish has more value to me. But, since I like SR-101 a bit more than 154CM, satin vs. SR-101 advantages

In regards to SR-101, I would argue that SR-101 is "almost" as good as INFI. To me, the only real world use advantage INFI is going to have over SR-101 on the S5 is corrosion resistance. *** For me, even though blown out of proportion, corrosion resistance still matters some - since I will be stripping my SR-101. But, as mentioned above, it isn't THAT big a deal. And I can maintain my SR-101 easily enough. I have a LOT of SR-101 satin users. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

But, I would argue that for most people, the difference in corrosion resistance should NOT matter since most people are NOT going to strip their SR-101 and therefore, their SR-101 is sufficiently corrosion protected.


I am rambling again...... sorry. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I LOVE SR-101. I wish I could get the S5 in SATIN SR-101. But,.... I will find a way to get SR-101 and MAKE mine satin... even if I have some Busse dimples around the ricasso. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

--------------

Anyway, in case anyone missed:

Whether or not I buy EITHER INFI (if an option) or 154CM in the S5LE "DEPENDS" on the price...... for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

For now, I am VERY glad SR-101 is available at a reasonable price! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" />

For my part, I FEEL very compelled to encourage people to NOT look past or skip SR-101 for the LE's. If you do, and haven't owned/used (sharpened) SR-101 to know, you are missing out (IMO).


Personally, I am HOPING to see the S5LE released in SATIN at a GREAT price someday. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

On the other hand.... I will probably be dissappointed, because I will likely have spent a BUNCH of time and effort stripping my CG SR-101 blade. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" /> ... that in mind... and having seen how many variations of the DM Dan released, I might have to buy my CG SR-101 blades and just wait and see for a while. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

.

I don't expect Dan or Jerry to use CPM-154.

They obviously have stock of and have used 154CM. So, I expect if they use a stainless steel, it will be 154CM.

Technically, for most makers, I believe CPM-154 does have some advantages over 154CM.
And honestly, if given an option, I would rather Dan and Jerry had CPM-154 and used it. But..... again, I believe 154CM is what they have and will use.

However, I really believe it comes down to the heat-treatment.

I believe that well heat-treated 154CM is likely to perform better than mediocre/average heat-treated CPM-154.

I am convinced Busse does QUALITY, reliable, dependable heat-treatments on ALL of their steels.

Other makers might use CPM-154 and you might not really now the level of quality of their heat-treatment vs. known quality of Busse heat-treat.

So, which is "Really" better?????


Personally, I might think it would be better if Busse used CPM-154. But, if choosing between Busse 154CM and some other maker using CPM-154, I think in most cases, I prefer sticking with Busse 154CM. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

EXCELLENT post KS. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


I still feel (and I could be wrong) that the final heat-treatment can be and is likely a significant factor in how non-CPM steels can compare to CPM steels.

All things being equal, everything I have read indicates CPM steels are consistant improvements over Non-CPM steels.

D2 (as mentioned) is a prime example.

Non-CPM D2 has historically been all over the board in quality.
Sometimes it is super tough, but a bugger to get sharp.
Sometimes it is VERY brittle and gets and holds an awesome edge... till it micro-fractures or breaks.
Sometimes it is a bugger to sharpen and holds and edge for a LONG time.



Busse used regular old D2 on the Swamp Rat Bog Dog and Rat Skinner and was able to make the D2 VERY tough for stainless steel and still get it to RAZOR sharp and hold it's edges. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" />

A lot of people SWEAR by Dozier's D2 blades. I hear they sharpen pretty well and hold AWESOME edges. I have never owned a Dozier. But, I have seen a couple of examples where even the Great Bob Dozier D2 knives have snapped - implying somewhat brittle. I am not bashing Bob Dozier knives. His knives are typically for skinning and chore use and should be GREAT for what they are intended to do. But, it "Seems" Busse's heat treatment of D2 gives Busses D2 a better compromise of toughness along with the edge qualities - providing MORE variety in use and MORE comfort/faith in use.

However, I have seen CPM-D2 on Spyderco and some other makers get HUGE raves and reviews. There seems to be MUCH better consistancy in performance, edge qualities, toughness, etc. with CPM-D2 over regular D2..... although, I doubt most Spyderco's and most of the knives I have seen CPM-D2 used on get abused much. So, I am not sure about how tough they really are. But, I will put stock in what I have read for edge qualities, ability to sharpen, cut like crazy, hold their edges, and such.

Similarly, I feel there is a LOT of reason to believe that most makers are going to have better consitancy in performance with CPM-154 over regular 154CM.

But, considering how well I have seen regular D2 perform that was heat-treated by Busse compared to CPM-D2, to me, I have reason to believe Busse can "probably" do similar with 154CM.

I still don't know a ligitimate way to compare Busse 154CM vs. another makers CPM154 other than to torture test them.

Similarly, I have NOT seen a comparison test of Busse's D2 vs. other makers CPM-D2... But, I would be curious! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I am not interested in trashing my knives for that. But, I don't mind watching others do it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Still, I have reason to believe Busse could "probably" provide EVEN better results with their own heat treatment (all things being equal) of CPM-154 over regular 154CM.

But, I don't know that I would say that "neccessarily" makes as a whole CPM-154 better than Busse 154CM (??????) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


"Still", I don't expect to see any changes soon in what Busse is using. They seem to have inventory of 154CM, have worked on perfecting heat-treatment for 154CM and have results they are happy with. I expect they will use regular 154CM for a while. And I don't have "much" reason to have issue with that. For knives at 5" and under, Busse's 154CM seems pretty darn tough and can get VERY sharp.

My ONLY issue is it is pretty hard to sharpen.

For some knives, I might prefer more toughness. But, I still say 154CM can be PLENTY tough for many applications. It really just comes down to each person knowing how they are using their knives. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I wouldn't expect Busse's 154CM to be the best choice for cutting door hinges off a Jeep. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But, it will do most skinning and wood-crafting chores very well and without rust. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> - Some people desire stainless. And I can appreciate why in some cases. So, if stainless is desired, Busse's 154CM or D2 are both going to be pretty high on the toughness level "FOR Stainless"!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

Someone PLEASE cut off
knifeguys coffee supply! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

knifeguy, great post, but man thats a lot of typing!!
thanks

Here to report that SYK 154 is not the usual idea of 154. 154 has a good reputation as a high-end stainless but it has those caveats I'm sure we've all heard. However, SYK 154 simply doesn't behave in the way you would expect. I don't know what sort of voodoo they're putting on it, but this is a different animal. Doesn't act like any 154 I've ever seen. When I stop being so lazy (in the year 10,000) I will post some photos comparing the 154 on my Muk with what passes for 154 on my Skeletool, just from a sharpening and wear resistance perspective. There's a very obvious difference in quality. SYK 154 is just about obscenely wear-resistant and gives you a real workout when you're edging it - but the edge it will take is pretty freaking ridiculous. Lesser 154 lacks that wear resistance and seems more prone to chips. I think SYK did an excellent job matching steel to task and design when they made the Muk - precisely where you want something that will slice all day and ask you for more. I can't speak for other designs and objectives but you couldn't ask for a better all-day slicer. It's so worry-free. Take your time (and your vitamins) setting it up with the edge you want, and brother, it's going to keep that edge long enough to make you look at it and say "What the hell?"

To paraphrase Mr. Miyagi, sure you can't chop door hinges off a Jeep, but then again, I never had to skin a Jeep <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />