After doing a small test recently, I've found that it really makes a big difference in chopping performance to have a thin edge. Even if it sacrifices a lot in the toughness of the edge, I prefer my chopper to be able to chop to the best of it's ability. If we're ever going to see a Regulator (or DogFather) with a Zero Edge, the Yard needs to know it is something people want.
I figure it would be good to use this edge on the LE knives, so that it's a little easier to tell which ones are good for copping down buildings, and which should only cut wood.

So. Who out here would like to see their knife come with a super thin Zero Edge, and experience some extreme cutting performance right out of the box?
I know I would.

Zero Edge LE or not? single choice
	I want my LE Scrapyad with a Zero Edge!
	I like the LEs just as tough as the CGs.
Votes accepted starting: 06/14/09 04:37 AM
View Results

id rather profile them myself if at all <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

+1

If it´s a convex zero edge I want it but if it´s full flat zero edge its no no. Maybe on a small knife but not on a chopper.

I would only want a full convex with zero edge. I'm okay with getting them however they come and then putting a convex edge on them if necessary. I think a full flat grind with zero edge would be too weak - a thicker full flat grind with a secondary bevel works better and is stronger. Just my opinion though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I want to make sure i understand this correctly...By zero edge, you mean an edge that is formed as part of the blade grind with no secondary bevel?

Thanks.

Zero edges are probably expensive to manufacture, as are full convex grinds. Part of why scrap yard knives keep such an amazingly good price to performance ratio is Dan's continued choice of simple yet effective grinds to minimize the amount of work that goes into manufacturing these knives.

Scrap yards have, in my experience, had better edges out of the box than Busse blades - I say keep our edges like they are, and if you want to reprofile them yourself, go nuts!

I think the most popular zero edge grind is the Scandi. They are known for being very sharp but they are also weak. Ease of sharpening is another plus for them. I prefer secondary bevels and convex edges (for chopping). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Id like an edge like the Busse Jackhammer came with, that would be sweet.

I say keep them the way they are now, and if people want they can taylor theirs to their liking when they get them. A buddy of mine just got a new belt sander from Harbor Freight and Tool, and we're both itching to try it out on some knives. Cheap knives at first, of course!

By Zero Edge, I mean full flat (like the Scrapper six LE).
But a full convex grind is certainly not a bad idea. I don't mind having it as thin as possible, maybe even a hollow grind, though that wouldn't work well for splitting.
I just want out of the box performance to be something closer to the specs I usually end up with after some time on the belt sander.

The big knives are great because they are so ridiculously tough.

I've gotta agree with the majority on this one; keep the knives with the standard edge. If you want a convex, scandi, zero, or whatever, let the buyer do it themselves.

Honestly, I find it gives you a better appreciation for the knives Dan makes for us, if you have to use some sharpening skills to give it your own personal touch.

That's why I voted for a Zero edge..
I can make it whatever I want it to be; convex, scandi, zero, or whatever.

But convex, scandi, zero, or whatever can not (within reason) be made into a zero edge..

Exactly what I was thinking.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Perhaps we're confusing terminology here or something, but I'm not following you.

Leave the edge as thin as possible, and let the end user decide how he wants to shape it.

you can always remove steel, but you can't add it on..
You can sharpen a zero edge into whatever edge you want..

on the same token the CG edges do have more steel on the edge than a zero, so you could argue that the CG edges have a broader canvas to work with than a zero edge.

I kinda thought a scandi grind was a zero edge as how it didn't have a secondary bevel? So I am not sure what a true "zero" edge is. Would that be a full height flat grind with no secondary bevel? Like a triangle?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I could grind my zero-edge to the CG edge you are talking about. I can't grind the CG back to zero (the same zero as original!!!) without removing a shitload of steel across the entire width of the blade..

Now which have a broader canvas?
I say the zero-edge..

Yes. a true scandi has a zero-edge. To mantain that edge properly, the entire bevel needs to be worked to keep the excact same geometrie..

and yes..
a true zero edge is like a triangle.. (on a full flat grind that is)

are we talking knife grinds or edge grinds?

sure to make a FULL zero knife grind youd take off much more steel. i had the impression this thread is about the edge grind, not the knife grind.

Thanks Martin, I thought that was the case but the various posts seem to confuse me.

I've been saying I want a scadi ground bowie, apparently I'm crazy.

yes.. we are talking edges..
but the funny thing is.. a zero edge is both knifegrind and edgegrind at the same time..

i understand that, so i dont see how have less steel (full zero edge) is more canvas.

i can make my SOD into a zero grind and edge. but i cant take a zero edge grind and turn it into my grind on my SOD.

edge grinds are easy and you can do whatever you want. i suspect though if you have a zero edge grind and make it an obtuse angle busse edge youd take off as much steel as making an obtuse busse angle zero edge. if not the same then VERY close.

I assume you're talking about the Zero Bevel grind talked about in this article?

Zero Bevel Grind
The poblem with this type of grind, as stated in the article, is that it weakens the structural strength of the blades' edge. Dans' whole premise on his knives are that they are incredibly strong, based upon how he designs them. If you want to put a zero grind on your blade after you purchase it, fine, but IMHO, I don't think he should be held accountable for an edge that compromises the designed strength of his blades.

Furthermore, I honestly wouldn't want to buy knife with this edge on it. There would be a lot less steel on a knife designed on this type of grind, than there would be on a knife done in the traditional manner that Dan has followed.

Trust that Dan has done his homework, and knows what he is doing, in putting the edge on his knives that he currenly does. Mod it if you want to, but allow the customers the choie of removing that steel from their knives.

full zero is more steel.. not less

I respectfully beg to differ, MS. It uses less steel in the zero grind than it does in the normal grind that Dan uses.

Just looking at the examples in the article prove that.

i think i see what youre saying...as a comparison of stock removal a full zero would mean taking less steel off. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

see what I'm saying?
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

it is a zero.

i voted in favor. i don't hear any complaints about the scrapper six LE, and i think it's a good idea to give the LE further distinction from the CG knives. if you're afraid of what will happen to a thin edge, just get the CG. if you're worried about the increase in price, just get the CG. "let the buyer do it" relates to a complaint that has been mounted AGAINST manufacturers for not making knives sharp enough. if dan can pull it off, he should. more reason for us to get both.

I accept you have more steel at the edge of the blade, but the overall design of the blade to support such an edge might result in less steel throughout the blade (Or a spine so thick as to be unwieldy in comfort).

Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, this type of edge does not coincide with Dans' mission of a strong, nearly indestructible blade, for a minimum cost to the consumer. Putting such an edge on the knives would result in an increase in cost, which I would prefer to avoid, since if I so chose, I could put this edge on my knives on my own.

I accept that you like zero grinds, but not everybody does; most are content with the edge Dan puts on the blades, or that they themselves can produce on the knives they purchase. I very much doubt that Dan will besmirch his mission statement on this matter.

tyger

I never said I liked zero edges.
I said I like my knives to come zero edged so I can put whatever edge I need on it myself. I don't need Dan to decide what edge is good for me. I have to, but I don't like it.
Yes.. I do a lot of reprofiling on the avarage Bussekin I happen to like. I don't like those thick edges. The steel don't need them most of the time.

Personally, the edge I want really depends on the knife. On the S5 LE I would love a zero convex edge. Since I'm planning on using it as a slicer anyway, I'd like it to be as terrifyingly sharp as possible. I want it to cut me from across the room if I look at it funny.

A chopper? Not so much. I want a heavier, thicker edge on my longer-than-6" blades.

I zero ground edge is not going to have more steel at all...
your picture just shows an edge that is longer for some reason...
an edge with a secondary bevel will be thicker and have more metal throughout... there is no getting around it.
However, you CAN make an edge "thicker" so to speak, by regrinding the zero edge, and putting a more steep secondary bevel on it...
Exactly like in martin Swinkles picture... look, you can create a thicker edge out of a thinner one.
He drew it out for you all to see.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'd LOVE a nice zero edge on all the LE knives for sure!
It's fitting of them... besides we all see the performance difference that it made for vic's knives, and isn't "superior performance to price ratio" (keyword: performance) Dans slogan?
maybe he should do it to some cg knives too! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />
so many people complain about the knives edge being too thick, and them having to re profile it... well don't you think we should give those guys a break? now the people who want a thicker edge will have to re profile. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

+1 emf you and i are on the same track!

and +1 jbomb it really does depend

haha. I didn't read your post as carefully as I thought MCJ.
I didn't see you already made that point.
oh well.
just re confirming it I guess.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The merits of a particular edge would be circumstantial, based on intended usage and material structure. The zero edge has less structure supporting the edge versus a convex blade. The overlay that was drawn above should have both lower tips overlaid evenly at their edge to show the true difference. They both have superior characteristics dependant upon the application.

its ok....my post was sloppy, yours was straight to the point! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

i voted for a no on zero edge....at least from SY

I got mine convex from HD and its amazing cuts through everything like hot knife through butter.

Nail on the head..






This (excaggerated) pic shows the material that needs to be removed if you want to make a zero edge out of a CG edge..
It's between the red and blue lines <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

On a flat ground blade, I would prefer it not have a true zero edge unless the stock is thick and the blade is narrow, as in the CS Spike. The edge that came on my M9LE was quite good, thick enough to be strong, but thin enough to be sharp. I am content to apply my on convex edge to most flat ground blades. A full convex zero edge is another story. Most Bark Rivers come with those, and they are usually strong enough, and always very sharp. But the LEs are more expensive already. Adding a full convex zero edge would cost a lot more.

I say buy the CG...I'll keep as much steel ,for as long as possible...or if its a chopper let HD VEX it for you for $45 an hour...

Zero edges are nice for soft contact. By that I mean soft cutting like food prep, leather work and soft green woods. There relatively thin and unsupported edge makes zero edged susceptible to chipping when used for hard contact, hard contact being hard woods both green and cured, knots (soft and hard wood) animal bone and cinder blocks just to name a few. Axe maker Gränsfors Bruks generally profiles there axes for soft pine and fir and warn the use on hard cured wood could damage/chip the edge. You need to re profile the edge before attacking the cured oak pile.

The secondary beveled edge maintains more material behind the edge thus supporting it for hard contact/impact. This edge can also be made very sharp and will preform well on soft and hard woods alike. The secondary beveled edge allows usage over a greater range of material whereas the zero edge is more limited. If your tool is targeted towards hard use then the secondary beveled edge makes more sense. If on the other hand your tool is marketed for cutting rather than chopping the Zero edge makes more sense.

I voted for leaving it as is and letting the user tailor it to there needs.

A zero edge doesn't HAVE to be thin - although that's what it will be on a flat grind. But trust me, after handling the killa zilla, it's quite possible to have a full convex zero edge with a LOT OF STEEL behind the edge. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Your quite correct.

The first generation CS Trail Master had a convex zero edge. They were quite sharp and the edge was well supported for hard contact. There were a lot of complaints about sharpening them. I was not really wild about the angular transition on the edge as it was pretty steep. Again it was not made for cutting but rather for general use including chopping.

You also have to take into consideration the width, thickness and material. The width and thickness will give you the angle based on where the grind line starts. For example comparing the Full Flatt grind (spine to edge) to the saber grind (grind line starts at ~half of the width) the saber grind will leave slightly more material behind the edge when taken to zero.

I also mentioned material. The material has to be able to perform for the tools designed purpose. Hard metals tend to chip and soft metals tend to roll and deform when ground thin. There is a balancing act between metal and angle to achieve optimum performance for a given task. There is also a fourth consideration and that is lateral forces. When striking and object the forces are not always parallel to the edge but can also be perpendicular. Lateral (perpendicular) forces at the edge can be massive since they are concentrated on a very small area. The tool can perform perfectly under perfect parallel loading and fail with the slightest lateral load.