Well I finally made a decision on a belt sander. I studied Ebay and looked at just about everything out there. I determined that I wanted something that handled the 1" x 42" belts and I did not want to pay much over $200, which eliminated the Grizzly at nearly twice the price and 2" belts. I played with a custom made item on Ebay made by a machinist who copied the Kalamazoo design and tried to add some enhancements. I decided he wanted too much money for something with no warranty or guarantees.

I went with a Grainger belt sander that I believe is made by Dayton, at least it has a Dayton motor. I liked the options this sander offered:

1) will use 1" x 42" or 2" x 42" belts
2) the belt adjusts to any position between horizontal and vertical
3) it has a 6' disc sander
4) the belt has an enclosure to capture dust
5) the disc sander has a vaccum attachment that fits my Festool vaccum
6) I have had good experiences with Dayton motors
7) there is a Grainger's a couple miles from the house, they let me look, touch, feel & no freight bill
8) has a good/simple mechanism for adjusting tracking
9) big removable, adjustable tables, also has a simple tool stop that can replace the belt table
10) simple/solid system for changing belts
11) the whole rig appears to be solid enough to handle some hard use
12) fits into my cabinet/work table plans for my shop

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6Y945

So now I am attempting to locate and purchase some good belts and discs. My old buddies at Lee Valley seem to have a good selection. I was hoping to get some guidance from those who do blade grinding and sharpening in regard to type and grits. I will also be using this bad boy to sharpen bushhog and finishing mower blades for my tractor. Then there are chisels, plane blades, cutting tools, digging tools.... Will grind some wood for cabinets etc. too.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=48040&cat=1,43072

grind on,

Mick

Nice Sander!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Looks like you chose well. If I ever have to replace my Delta I'm going to give that one another look!

Lee Valley is a good belt supplier, I've also gotten belts from a place in PA that has been good but I can't remember their name ATM... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Some of the lee valley belts seemed kind of cheap to me - I had one break where it was fastened. It looked pretty much like a piece of packing tape was holding it together. They were very good about giving me a replacement, but I wasn't terribly impressed with the quality of some of the belts I got from them.

i ordered 6 1x30 belts the shipping was more than the belts...........i'm through with them..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" />

I found the info on the place in PA...

G. L. Pearce Abrasive Co in Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania

They don't have a website but their number is (814) 938-2379.

I've used belts from them for several years and have always been pleased with their price, service and quality... so far. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

It's been a while since I've ordered anything though.

thanks........ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" />

Give this place a shot.

http://trugrit.com/belts1.htm

+1


I just recently ordered some belts from Gary and have spoken to him on the phone. He seems like a pretty good guy and took some time to discuss his belts with me on the phone. He apparently provides belts for some other knife-makers.

Gary Pearce

Or Penny (Gary said she may answer emails ???? - I have not spoken with her)

Phone: 814-938-2379

Email - pearce1935@comcast.net



Gary confirmed what Jeff said: No web address - He should probably look into that.


Gary carries a large variety of: Aluminum Oxide, Silicon Carbide and Zirconia belts. But, he doesn't really have the ceramic... which I am not sure most people really need unless production knife-making (??????).

Aluminum Oxide is commonly found at hardware stores and common for wood-working. Aluminum Oxide will grind steel. But, there is a noticable improvement over Aluminum Oxide for steel and difference in quality of cut, smoothness, speed, lack of heat and wearability with better belts.
Silicon Carbide is "better" for working with steel than Aluminum Oxide.
Once you use better belts (on steel) than Aluminum Oxide, you won't want aluminum oxide belts anymore.

Gary also carries a variety of Zirconia belts.
Gary does not carry Ceramic belts.
Zirconia belts are supposed to cut cleaner and cooler than even Silicon Carbide and last longer.

I have not personally used either Ceramic or Zirconia belts myself yet. But, Ceramic is supposed to last even longer and cut even cooler than Zirconia. But, the Ceramic and Zirconia belts are mostly coarse grits. And so far, I find for "My" hobbiest/modification purposes, the Silicon Carbide seems to be good enough. But, who knows... maybe if I tried the Zirconia and Ceramic belts, I would never want Silicon Carbide again (???) - .... at least for the coarser grits.

For finer grits, you have to go back to Silicon Carbide. Although, I am not sure why they don't have the finer grits in at least Zirconia (?????)

Considering the Zirconia and Ceramic belts are primarily just in the coarse grits, you need to make sure you are good with your belt sander as a tool first. The coarse grits like 80, 120, 150 and such remove steel VERY fast. Without a good amount of practice and experience, those grits can make a knife look like a MANGLED piece of mess very fast if not careful.

**** As is commonly stated, practice on CHEAP pieces of steel or cheap knives before going to a good knife.

----------

I have not ordered from ANY of the following, but I have been collecting the info from various posters who have commented on their products or some sort of worthy experience:


ECON Abrasives

McMaster-Carr

Tru-Grit

Supergrit

Lee Valley

Jantz Supply

Knifeandgun.com

Texas Knifemaker's Supply

USA Knife Maker Supply


-----------------

Most importantly (IMO) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, you want a Leather belt for that EXTRA hair popping results. You actually might want 2-3 for different compounds.
Once you load a given grit compound on a belt, you should keep that belt with the same compound ONLY. - So, multiple belts for multiple grits.

Once used, they turn black from metal. So, they can get harder to determine which belt is for which grit. I haven't needed to yet, but I have heard some people put the belts in a labeled bag. I think there are probably other ways to label a belt (????).

This company makes a variety of sizes of leather belts and says they can make custom sizes: Surgi-Sharp ... But, then they say they don't sell directly. So, I guess you have to contact them to see "Where" you would buy a custom sized leather belt (????).

Here are just a couple places I have found that carry the Surgi-Sharp belts:

The Woodcraft Shop

Best price on 1x42: Tru-Grit (*Have to search a bit, but it is in there by size at the bottom of the 1x42's <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )


-----------------

I do not think you need to use the black compound on a leather belt. The black compound is pretty course and probably about like 600 - 1000 grit (Theoretically that would be about 16-9 micron ???? - But, I can't tell for sure - I have seen some people say the Black compound is about 3 micron - But, I cannot personally believe that.
Green compound might be about 3-6 micron or so ???? - Again, hard to say.
I would guess the white (that I use) is probably about 1-1.5 micron ???).

My black and green compounds are Bark River compounds. I bought my white at the hardware store. They last a LOOOOOOOONG time.

But, different makers could and do use different grits with different colors. So, keep that in mind.

In any event, I personally feel that the black that I use is good if needing heavy refining on a hand strop. If using power tools, I think you can easily skip some grits including the black compound because of the speed.

I think you can easily go from 400-600 grit belts (about 23-16 micron) and skip down to green compound - which I guess to be about 3-6 micron.

A lot of people use the micron film belts. But, I have not used those yet. So, I don't know what to say about them. But, 9 and 15 micron are common grits.

Obviously, there are a LOT of different techniques and ways to get sharp knives.

For powered leather honing, I would probably ideally have:
- "Most Likely" one belt with green compound,
- "Definitely" one with white or pink compound
- "Most Likely" one with 1.0 - 0.5 micron chromium oxide or diamond spray.

Most people should be able to get blades sharp enough on 400 - 600 grit that a light finishing buff with white or pink compound will be sufficient. If done right, white or pink compound edges will mirror polish and will easily shave and push cut paper.

If you want to go finer than white or pink compound, check with:

Hand American

Hand American - Diamond and Chromium Oxide

Keith De'Grau (owner) of Hand American has developed a good reputation in the sharpening industry.

I purchased some 0.25 Diamond Spray (recently) and it is VERY fine. Arguably too fine. You can't feel the grit between your fingers. By hand, it was WAY too slow for me and after a few minutes stropping by hand, I could not notice results.
However, when I sprayed the 0.25 Diamond spray on my 1x30 power leather belt (* and after letting the belt dry about 24 hours - wet leather flops and bounces too much!) with the speed of the fast belt, I could get VERY sharp edges. But, I have to just barely touch the leading edge. I can't strop the full edge with that fine a grit and get much results.

Even though with a powered belt, I can get results with the 0.25 diamond spray, after using the 0.25, I would recommend 0.5 - 1.0 micron to others and not get overly edge greedy with 0.25 micron. In the future, I will go to 0.5 - 1.0 myself - as I believe it will result in edges just as "noticably" sharp, but work faster and more efficiently (???).

Further, even though I have not personally tried it yet, I would MOST LIKELY recommend the MUCH Cheaper Chromium Oxide over the Diamond.

I have read MANY who say the cheaper Hand American "Chromium Oxide" paste or powder works JUST AS WELL as the diamond. And in hind site, I probably should have just gone with the Chromium Oxide. But, I have a particular ZDP knife hardened at about 64HC that I wasn't sure if the chromium would work well on... In hind site... and with further research after purchasing the diamond spray, I think the chromium oxide would have been fine. The Chromium Oxide isn't as hard as diamond - nothing is. But, it is VERY hard and should be more than sufficient at cutting (sharpening) even VERY hard knife steels quite easily.
Might really only need diamonds if sharpening Carbide steel or similar (????).

Longevity of the diamond vs. chromium oxide might be an argument, but I am VERY confident that the chromium oxide BLOWS diamonds away in the "Price/performance" catagory for sharpening knives.

Anyway, I went with the 0.25 micron diamond spray. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/loopy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/paperbag.gif" alt="" />
But, for 99.999% of everyone elses uses and needs (including my own - including the 64HC ZDP knife), everything I read about the chromium oxide from Hand American is supposed to be PLENTY good and WAY cheaper

To compare price:

The Diamond spray is sold in 4 and 8 ounce bottles, but "REALLY" you are just buying a certain "Gram" weight of diamond mixed in a certain Ounce weight of solution (and Hand American explains as much on their web-site)

But, here is the (approximate) math for you if you break down how much diamond in ounces you get vs. Chromium Oxide per ounce:

Diamond 12 Carat (weight) ($15.60) = 0.085 ounce = $183.53/ounce
Diamond 18 Carat (weight) ($23.40) = 0.127 ounce = $184.25/ounce
Diamond 21 Carat (weight) ($27.30) = 0.148 ounce = $184.46/ounce

Chromium Oxide Powder (99.9% pure) (Sold in ounces - Weight ???)

2 ounces (weight ?) = $12.00 = $6.00/ounce
4 ounces (weight ?) = $18.00 = $4.50/ounce

Chromium Oxide Liquid/Semi Past (75% chromium oxide or higher)

Unfortunately, this is likley ounces in liquid "Volume" - not weight (????)
But:

2 ounces (volume ?) = $15.00 = $7.50/ounce
4 ounces (volume ?) = $21.00 = $5.25/ounce


**** Unfortunately, the use of the term "OUNCE" in both weight and volume in our measuring system is ENTIRELY "IDIOTIC" AND "RETARDED"!!!
There is NO "real" direct corrolation between an ounce volume vs. an ounce in weight. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" /> - if you cook a lot, you can probably appreciate the stupidity of the term ounce being used for two "Different" forms of measurement.

IMO, we should all move to the "Logical" metric system. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />
And, in return, everyone speak English. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


Anyway, if you take about $184 per ounce of diamonds divided by $4.50 per ounce of chromium oxide, the Diamond spray is close to 41 times more expensive. The diamonds will likely last longer. But, not nearly that much longer. Ultimately, you just have to clean and re-load strops.


Anyway, leather belts with fine sub-1.0 "micron" compounds do not do much shaping of the edge, just fine polishing and/or fine honing. So, the shaping needs to be done with higher grits. Grits much under 1.0 micron just barely refine the very edge.


-----------

Unfortunately, there is a LOT of info out there that can get confusing in regards to "Grit" vs. "Micron" - mostly regarding belts and paper products, I find a LOT of "Significant" descrepencies in different grit/micron charts or vendor grit/micron claims - especially in the finer grits/micron ratings. -

Most US vendors will use (US) "CAMI" industry standards (Grits we know from sandpaper like 80, 100, 150, 220, 320, 400, 600, etc.) which seems to allow for a large variance in error margins <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ).

But, for finer grits where they might sometimes use 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500 "CAMI" terms, they switch over to "Micron" - which they should IMO as Micron terms are the most accurate.
However, when defining "Micron" for comparison, they often compare with "Mesh" Equivalency number - which are NOT the same as US CAMI Grits. ... and hence the confusion.

"Mesh Equivalent" numbers are mostly "Theoretical" and VERY deceptive numbers - especially in the finer grits since mesh can't realistically sort fine media down to a certain size and the "mesh" numbers are based on the theory of having an actuall "mesh" wire sorting - where at the VERY fine grits, the thickness of the wire actually is too much a factor in sorting. So, actual micron measurements mean something. Mesh numbers are crap in the finer grits IMO.




So, I think that just takes some experimenting and practice - again mostly in regards to belts and paper.

--------------------



If interested, a LOT of VERY TECHNICAL, but pretty cool reading can be found:

Experiments on Knife Sharpening - Verhoeven

----------

Very technical bladeforums thread (with good explanations about grit vs. micron vs. mesh on page 3: Verhoeven Experiments on Knife Sharpening--Wow!



... Might go add this to the sharpening thread. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

Mick....WOW......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> sorry Knifeguy..........i was wrong

Wow Knifeguy that is a great deal of useful information. Thanks to everyone for the input.

I don't know that we can exhaust any discussion on sharpening. I have been into this topic often with wood working enthusiasts who get just as deep into it. When you are trying to keep a plane blade sharp enough to make shavings that are transparent you have to know a little about sharpening. Every time the topic comes up I learn new things.

I have put together a few folding knife kits and might have some interest in a good fixed blade "kit". I am not interested in making custom knives. If I get some experience I may take on some mods to existing knives I have or will have. My main need is for sharpening/polishing knives and re grinding cruder tools like tractor mowing blades. I will also find some uses for the belt sander making some of the cabinets and tool stations I have planned, although my router will handle most of those chores.

I may have some interest in making some "cruder" cutting tools that I have not been able to find in quality steel. I made a post on the suggestions thread about a cutting tool that would be an improved version of a "Woodsmans Pal" but I am guessing it want get made here any time soon. I want something that can be used to cut small trees and brush off at the ground without chopping into dirt and dulling the blade, which I have discovered some hooked blades are good at.

I am excited to have a tool capable of removing larger quantities of metal without creating the kind of heat that will cause temper issues. I got 50 & 80 grit aluminum oxide belts with the sander and a Norton Metalite R228, which was the only other belt my local Grainger's had in stock. I am excited about leather belts and buffing compounds and did not realize there were as many options as there are.

Now I have enough information to make some relatively informed decisions about belts to try out, Thanks again for the help.

Mick

I order my belts from trugrit.com. My most used belts are the Norton Norzon (60-120 grit), great lasting belts and worth the money. I also use Norton Blaze (ceramic), but at over $5 a piece for a 1x42, I use it sparingly. Another brand I like is 3M; I tried some klingspor belts once, but they threw this red dust all over and I didn't like the way it cut, so mostly norton and 3m for me.

Mick,

Glad I could help..... Looks like I likely provided WAY more info than you ned for most of what you are looking for.

However, if you want wood planes and chisels to make sliver out of slivers, get a leather belt and some of that .50 Chromium Oxide.

If you do woodworking (as I also do), save the aluminum oxide belts for wood. And ante up for at least the Silicon carbide for steel.

For tractor blades, you remove a LOT of metal sometimes, so it might be worth going a few dollars more for the Zirconia or even Ceramic (?????)

I will eventually try the Zirconia and Ceramic to compare, but I haven't yet.

The Silicon belts in the right grits will reshape mower blades pretty fast.

I would probably stick with the 50 and 80 grit belts for mower blades Maybe even go to 36 or 40 grit - just to do it fast.(???) Having a razor edge isn't as important on a mower blade. But, sharpness DOES help.


----------------


I can appreciate "some" of the design aspects of the Woodsman's Pal. But, personally, I am not that fond of the over-all design. I never really find need for the hook and find it more of a hang-up than benifit. And I am also not getting the dull tip. I guess it is a safety feature - that inhibits function (???) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />




However, personally, I do like the "general" shape - that of a "Cane Knife" for cutting sugar cane. But, I think some modifications and improvements can be made to the basic design with: a "Belt sander" to make it more yours.

But, the Woodsman's Pal is about $90 - $100 vs. about $10 - $15 (shipped) for a Corona Cane Knife or Cold Steel Heavy Machete (Cane Knife shaped).








Again, personally, I am not fond of the hook like on the Corona. I prefer the blade on the Cold Steel - except the blade is a bit taller than I likely prefer. But, a simple foundation for modding to taste.

I am not big on Cold Steel's handle... or Corona's for that matter. But, considering how cheap they are, the steel is EXCELLENT for that type of tool and a good foundation for a fun custom modification tool. The wood on the Corona could probably just be ground and shaped on the handle as is. I do that on my Tramontina Machetes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I don't know what type of steel corona uses. But, Cold Steel uses 1055 - A common "Tough" steel for machetes and such.


Condor also makes a similar blade, but they call theirs the Beaver Tail.


But, the condor is stainless and almost $60 or so. At least it comes with a leather sheath. But, kind of pricey compared to other options.





However, Condor does make some other fine machetes and bolos worthy of consideration. I have mentioned before the El Salvador (in carbon steel!) which is quite thick and stout with an amazing factory edge and nice leather sheat. It could probably be cut down or modified to a shorter heavy duty tool.


Ontario makes some very nice machetes out of 1095. Ontario machetes are harder than most machetes - They hold a much better edge than most machetes, but a little more prone to chipping and breaking.

Here is a shorter 12" "Camper" Machete from Ontario at 0.125" thick (about $10 - $15):




Bark River's Golok is more expensive. But, a FINELY finished tool with a nice leather sheath. Quite a "Fine" slasher and chopper. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />
The original ones were made with 0170-6. But, recent ones were made with 1095.







I haven't tried yet, but "some" (????) of the many Valiant Golok variants are on my list to try. I have read a few pretty good reviews about them, but (????). Most are "Spring" steel. Pretty vague, but likely 5160 or similar (????)

Here is a 13.75" bladed Valiant Survival Golok for about $70.00:



This 12" bladed Parang Bandol looks interesting to me as well for about $95.00:



Most Kukri's are very good choppers, but not so great bush slashers. But, the Cold Steel Kukri Machete is a bit slimmer and gets good reviews.

The Cold Steel Bolo would seem a good balance between chopper and machete. Might need some of Vic's input.



Cold Steel's Barong Machetes look decent, but not as forward weighted for chopping. Probably versatile in light bush though.

The Martindale #2 machete/Golok has been on my list as with the British Sheffield Golok. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

And of course, there is the Scrap Yard DFLE or Swamp Rat Battle Rat. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

[img]http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j183/DWRW/ScrapYard-DFLEwithSwampRatBattleRat.jpg[/img]


Something from Dan with Res-C and about a 12" - 14" blade with a narrower neck and taller blade would be WAY cool. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> I personally would be interested in the shallow edge grind like the Martindale #2 style, Valiant Parang Bandol, British Sheffield Golok and similar. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

We could go on for a LONG time, but just throwing out some options that I would "peronally" consider over the Woodsman's Pal.



.