I have similarly heard 3M and Norton are popular with the production knife-makers.

I have heard the 3M 777F belts in 36-60-80-120 offer good performance/value, but that is from a maker. I have not tried myself yet.


Here is some Norton Belt INFO from Norton:

Norton Narrow Belts PDF

Apparently, the "NorZon" belts are "Zirconia alumina".
I wonder how they compare to Gary Pearce's Zirconia belts??? - I guess they are all a little different (????)

3M offers so many Belt flavors, I get confused. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

.

Those are some nice looking choppers and slashers KnifeGuy.

I have the top Woodsman's Pal in your pictures. I wanted the longer handle and blade but the handle actually hurts the hand on the end when using the reverse/hook side of the blade. I should add that my Woodsman's Pal does not look quite like it did when I got it. First thing I did was sharpen the regular cutting side all the way to the end, as you mention. I also removed the little notch above the hook sharpening and enlarging that area.

I maintain 12 acres of fields and woods. We have a major pest plant all over the property, English Privet. Brought over by the English, it is now second only to Kudzu on the Georgia list of most hated plants. Privet constantly puts up new suckers from roots and will take over an entire wooded area if left alone. It will grow into 30' trees too. I fight a constant battle against it. The stems of the small trees/bushes are very tough. I use a scythe for most of my trim work but the privet will tear up a blade made and sharpened for grasses and normal brush.

Although a brush axe, machete, hatchet..will cut it, cutting it at soil level dulls those tools fast. The hook can be pulled along the surface of the ground cutting this type of woody steemed brush at ground level without having to chop into the dirt. I could use a much tougher scythe blade that is designed to cut tougher materials but it isn't practical to carry two scythes or change blades every time I encounter a privet sucker. Thus my search for a tool that I can carry with me while I use a scythe which will also perform machete type chores. I also find the hook a superior cutting tool for supple small limbs that tend to just get pushed out of the way by a more conventional straighter blade. Birch, Sychamore, Weeping Willow... are all abundant in this area. All these trees tend to make many areas hard to pass through unless these low hanging branches are trimmed..

You really need to try 3M Trizact CF "Gator", I get mines from trugrit in 200-400 grit, super smooth belts.

Mick,

In regards to your Woodsman's Pal hurting your hand: Can you re-shape the handle with your grinder to better fit your hand?

Or, look into some tennis/racquet handle grip/overgrip tape (or similar) to cushion, grip and shape the handle better. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> (Tourna-Grip, Yonex, Babolat, Dunlop, Head, Wilson, etc.)

----------

I am not familiar with English Privet. I don't think they are common around Houston (???)

Is this what you are describing: Ligustrum Vulgare - Wiki aka: Wild Privet, Common Privet or European Privet ????

Privets are typically various variety of shrubs also referred to as a Ligustrum.

The generic term Ligustrum is commonly used around here to describe a very common evergreen ornamental that people actually like around here called a Wax-Leafed Ligustrum (Ligustrum japonicum) Ligustrum japonicum - wiki


Again, I can't speak for the "English Privet", but the Wax-Leaf is appreciated here. However, the Wax-Leaf is not invasive - and it sounds like the English Privet you are describing is - which is a signficant difference.

With the Wax-Leaf Lugstrum, you plant it or transplant it and it grows into a very nice evergreen ornamental that is commonly trained or maintained into a shape or let grow wild into a small tree or hedge. I have about 5 Wax-Leaf Lugustrums myself and have owned and maintained MANY over the years. But, again, it doesn't grow wild or invasive. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


Sounds like you have experience with a situation that is somewhat unique in tool needs and application... and if describing wild and envasive sucker type growth, your chore doesn't sound like a chore I envy. Woody type sucker growth can be a PITA! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" />

I am big on believing and saying "use the right tool for the job". Experience often dictates the right tool. So, sounds like you are on top of it.

But, if "I" were maintaining "TWELVE" acres! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />, I would be using a POWER TOOL. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> .... err... scratch that: Power "Tool"S"! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Again, I don't know about the English Privet, but our privet can get pretty thick and woody pretty fast. A stout machete, hedge-trimmer, to axe can be needed. But, if mostly dealing with sucker growth at the ground and dealing with 12 acres and "Volumes" of growth, I would look into a heavy duty straight shaft weed-eater/brush cutter type tool.

I have had a lot of GOOD experience with Echo brand Weed-Eaters in the past. Most professional landscaping crews around here use Echo brand Weed-Eaters. But, Stihl is another company with a good reputation for quality 2-stroke motor tools - especially with chain-saws.

I would look into:




Echo - SRM-410U

Or

An option from Stihl: Stihl - Brushcutters






You are correct that most any bladed tool that gets chopped into the soil will often hit rocks and become dull quickly. If needing to clear vines and sucker growth at ground level and with the volume you describe, a specialty scythe sounds like a possible option. But, it sounds like something with POWER would be the way to go. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I spouted off based on "my" personal preferences and needs. But, my uses, needs and preferences are ENTIRELY different than what you seem to be describing.
12 acres worth of what you seem to be describing sounds like a PITA. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

So, good luck with that.

Good luck with those low hanging branches as well.... sounds like "possibly" (????) a good call for a gas hedge-trimmer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

The Trizact Gator belts "Look" cool <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />:



And I have read some comments somewhere about some people liking them. But, I have read so much, that I honestly can't remember most of what I have read.

I assume you have likely had the opportunity to try more belts than I have. I have mostly just read a bunch. But, I assume you still hang out with Ban (?????) and might get to play with his stuff and starting to accumulate your own based on some possible inside info and playing with his (?????).

The cut lines of the Gator belts seem like they would contour to the grinder wheels better and likely allow the belt to spin smoother (?????) - just theory on my part. I have read where the Gator belts are supposed to run smoother (????).

You already mentioned using and liking the Norton Norzon belts (Ceramic).
I have read some people mention they like the Norton Norax belts a bit more than the Gator belts.
Have you tried the Norax belts?

If I understand correctly, the Gator belts are Aluminum Oxide.
Whereas the Norax belts are ???? not sure... some seem to be AO and other Zirconia (?????)

My concern about the Gator belts is the AO. I have read over and over how AO just doesn't last very long on hardened steel and AO is better for wood and I am guessing fine for micarta (????).

I just recently started using the Silicon Carbide and it does seem noticably better than AO so far.

So, why Gator belts with AO?

Do they make the Gator belts with Silicon Carbide or Zirconia???

Still a bit confused. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


SO MUCH info and so many options. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />



------------------------------------------------


...... I REALLY need to upgrade my belt grinder before dropping a bunch on new belts. I am still using a POS 1x30, but have recently started using my 4x36 to help with grinding the flats. I have done WAY better using my 4x36 on the flats than I ever could with my 1x30. So, for now, my 1x30 still works "decent" for my final sharpening and some detail work. But, my 4x36 has become my heavy duty work-horse... for now.

At one time, I was seriously considering a 1x42 in either a Delta 180 or a Kalamazoo. But, the more I use my 4x36, the more I think I need/want at least 2" width on ANY upgrade I go to next.

Based on what I "think", a 2.5" - 3" width with two wheels and eaily removable platen sounds ideal. And 42" - 48" seems plenty long to me (????) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> But, belts are not readily available in 2.5" - 3.0" widths... let alone machines. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I guess the industry like 2x72 for a reason. So, until I actually get to use a 2x72, I guess I just have to assume that is the way to go. But, short of that, the 2x42 option seems pretty interesting and belts seem to be reasonably available for that size - more so than machines that use those sizes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
About the only other 2x42 belt sander I have seen is a Wilton that costs almost as much as the Grizzly 2x72. The Wilton is a 3 wheel set-up. And seems like the Grizzly would be a no-brainer pick over the Wilton at a similar price.

The 2x42 Dayton that Mick is looking at looks interesting, but I can't see certain features of interest to me.





The Grizzly 2x72 has a very versatile belt tension adjustment and a easily removable platen, but at about 2.5 times the cost of the Dayton. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ... So, if certain things work right on the Dayton...???....

I would be interested to see more about how the Dayton belt tensioner works and more about the platen. I "assume" the belt alignment function is decent and Dayton seems to make pretty decent motors - Not sure if they are as good as Baldor (????), but probably fine for me.

However, the Dayton's platen "appears" to be fixed like on my 4x36 - which would not be so good for my preferred option of convex grinding.

If you read this Mick, can you post more detailed pics of you Dayton, when you get it - specifically showing the platen and belt tensioner.

Also, the Grizzly has a 1hp motor vs. 1/3hp on the Dayton. The 1/3hp might be enough. I think my 4x36 is 1/3hp (???).

But, if the platen is reasonably easily workable/removable for convex grinding and the belt tensioner has a decent range, that Dayton might have a LOT of what I am looking for at a LOT less price than other options.

I wish I could afford a grinder that had small wheel options for detail work... like fixing choils and such. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> - would be better than using the sanding drums on my drill press. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I am curious to learn more about the Dayton 2x42. But, not much info available that I can find so far.

So, Mick,.... I might be picking your brain on this Dayton. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


As most know, Delta no longer makes or carries the SA180. But, I just noticed Grizzly now has the H8191 1x42 that looks VERY similar to Delta's old SA180 (?????)

See: Grizzly H8192


.

Mechanical Weed Whackers:

I believe a good scythe can cut more in much less time and make a neater cut doing it. There is a U Tube video that I can not find at the moment. In the video a 17 yr old girl with a scythe puts a very large dude with a magnum weed eater totally to shame. She cuts 2-3 times more area and her finished area looks much neater than the area cut with the weed eater. I have three good weed whackers. I spend half the time I am using them pulling weeds and junk out of a trapped blade. When I am done I am covered in nasty pieces of what I have been cutting, usually including poison ivy. The scythe has none of those problems. The scythe is great low impact exercise involving completely rotating the trunk of the body, strengthening back and stomach muscles.


The Dayton Grinder:

This grinder can use either 2" x 42" or 1" x 42" belts. The side sander uses the adhesive 6" sanding pads. Apparently one can order extra aluminum discs to hold various grit types.

The picture above actually answers most of your questions if you understand what you are looking at... I like the belt tensioning system better than anything else I have seen. The large handle on the top of the belt housing pulls down moving the entire top wheel assembly down and away from the belt making it very easy to remove the belt. There is a good stiff spring that keeps good pressure on the assembly. The handle and the assembly it's bolt is in is a much sturdier system than what I have seen on other sanders.

Not having actually used the machine yet I can only repeat how the instructions explain the belt tracking. If you notice around the belt release & tensioning handle there is a raised "tracking bracket" with several screws attaching it to the housing. The top screw is moved in or out to change the tilt of the top wheel enough to control tracking. There is a bolt the screw goes through that can be loosened or tightened to hold or adjust the screw. The other screws might help too but I think the top screw is the main adjustment. The screw should adjust the tilt of the entire wheel assembly.

I believe the platen you refer to is the metal device under the belt that the belt rides on or over. If you look closely you will see a groove in the an arm behind the platen. There is actually a second arm, just like the top one on the bottom of the platen. It is not visible because it is inside the housing. Both of these arms attach with socket head bolts. A set of hex wrenches comes with the machine, one is an extra long 3mm which is used to loosen the socket bolts. The platen can be moved in or out at will and then the bolts tightened to hold it at any hight one might like. The whole belt platen could even be removed. There is also a small metal plate, "work stop" that can be used to replace the large tilting belt table if it is in the way for specific work. The work stop is similar to the metal plate on a Kalamazoo.

I use to own an Inca Woodworking table saw. Highland hardware in Atlanta sold me a Dayton motor to run it. Used it for many years and had no complaints.

Belts

I love all this information on sanding belts. There is a confusing array of options and it is great to have some input from people who have actually tried the various options.

Hand Tools

Those are some interesting machete type tools KnifeGuy found that I had not discoverd yet. I am looking into several of them.

Yeah, the gator does look cool. I'm not sure why it runs so smoothly, but your theory sounds legitimate.

I was fortunate to meet Ban early when I started getting into knives. He explained to me a lot of stuff and let me use his 2x72 grizzly and kmg with all different belts. He helped saved me a lot of money because I didn't have to go out and buy different belts to experiment.

I have used Norax at Ban's shop, but I don't have it now because trugrit didn't stock it for my 1x42 when I ordered belts. And I have only really used it for getting the spine, it was more of polishing/finishing belt.

As for the gator not working well on hardened steel, to me, it isn't meant to hog of steel (that's what the Norton Blaze and Norzon are for). The gator has a lot of give so it can't really be pushed hard against when you're running it slack, and it doesn't cut really deep (cuts very clean). BUT that's the exact reason why I like using it for polishing and getting that final convex edge, it puts a clean finish and doesn't need to be pushed hard against get that contour for convexing. So it does cut slower on hardened steel, but by the time I use the belt there isn't much steel left that needs to be removed.

Also, If you use it (gator) with a platen and push hard against it, I can see it destroying the belt very quickly, the grit would just crumble away. But again, I have very specific uses for the gator, it's always for the finals stages and always on slack (unless I'm polishing flats areas, i.e. ricasso, then I use it with the platen). Of the 5 knives I made (few are WIP) and all the knives I've reprofiled, the gator belts are the only ones I haven't changed yet, everything else is on 2nd or 3rd set, but I already have a 2nd set of gators for whenever the originals finally decide to retire. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So, just to prove this thread was not in vain, here are the belts I ordered:

1 (BNRT142-060-980) 1x42-60 R980 Blaze $5.35 $5.35
Ceramic

1 (BNRT142-120-823) 1x42-120 R823X $1.30 $1.30
Norzon

1 (BL3M142-080-967) 1x42-80 967YF $3.25 $3.25
Cubitron Ceramic

1 (BL3M142-240-A65CF) 1x42-240 A65CF $2.95 $2.95
Trizact Aluminum Oxide Gator

1 (BL3M142-400-A45CF) 1x42-400 A45CF $2.95 $2.95
Trizact Aluminum Oxide Gator

1 (BL3M130-600-A30CF) 1x30-600 A30CF $2.80 $2.80
Trizact “Gator” Aluminum Oxide

2 (BL3M142-Leather) 1x42-Leather Belt $14.25 $28.50

1 (BNRT242-060-965) 2x42-60 SY965 $2.85 $2.85
Ceramic

1 (BL3M242-240-A65CF) 2x42-240 A65CF $3.95 $3.95
Gator Structured Abrasive

1 (KNBCGREEN) Green Chrome Buffing $6.50 $6.50
Compound

1 (KNBCPINK-SCRATCH) Pink Scratchless $8.00 $8.00
Compound

Yes, the 1x30 belt is a mistake I sent them a note about it.

I should have the belts soon, after I start using them I will post some pictures and personal experience.

Mick

Wow, KG! You are a veritable gusher, a wellspring, a fountain of fine nuanced facts and figures for fastidious sharpeners! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Well it seems to be taking longer than I had hoped for my belts to get delivered. However, I did get a new S5 LE yesterday. I thought that in the interim we might turn this discussion in a more specific direction.

There are two issues I have with my new LE that I think my belts will equip me to resolve.

First, I used my knife to slice up some vegetables and discovered that the "satin?" finish was a little rough for this sort of use. Specifically vegetable matter seemed to stick to the blade surface. Having a little gunk stuck on the surface was not a big deal but I found that it was a good deal harder to get that substance off my blade surface than with my other knives. So specifically what belts would you guys use to "smooth" the surface of this blade so that it is easier to clean? My belt selection is above but feel free to mention other options you use that might be note worthy. I am also interested in whether or not I can accomplish this without removing the Scrap Yard info. etched? into my blade?

Second, my particular knife is not very sharp as it arrived. It tends to rip paper instead of cutting it. The cutting edge bevel is fairly short and steep. I have a link, Convex Knife Sharpening with a Belt Sander, that I will be reviewing:
http://backyardbushman.com/?page_id=68

I am still interested in hearing specifics from fellow Scrap Yarders regarding their thoughts on using a belt sander with specific belts to address the issue.

I think it helps to narrow sharpening/polishing/grinding issues to a more specific set of circumstances that everyone can relate to.

belt sand on,

Mick

Mick - you might send a PM to Horn Dog - he's the "GrindMaster Funk of the Third World Grind Shop". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I'm a little afraid of dogs with horns, teeth are dangerous enough.

I was thinking in terms of making the thread more valuable by adding specific information on the use of specific belts for specific purposes. I know there are other threads on sharpening but I think here we are into very specific information on the use of belt sanders. This thread is touching on the subject in several places now.

The belt sander offers speed and more chores it can accomplish than other sharpening only tools. The belt sander has to be the main tool for just about anyone wanting to work with knives thus my thinking is it deserves it's own specific use thread.