Hmm, so reliability is a must.

This all kind of makes you think... What would likely cause TEOTWAWKI?

Doesn't change it in the slightest. There is an AR-15 style detent pin at the rear of the assembly that pushes out, and allows a piece to be moved rearward, releasing the rail from the Dollhead, and the whole rail swivels up out of the way. It also maintains zero beautifully, especially mounted on a well built AK like the SGL. One complaint I have, being a shooter with glasses, is with the standard Warsaw length stocks, from the prone position the rear sight tended to tap my glasses just a bit under recoil. I planned on switching out stocks anyways, so it doesn't bother me, but for some it might be a pain. I actually completed the install with no workbench, no vise, and minimal handtools. All one needs to install it is some mechanical knowledge and common sense.

I have a bad feeling it will be a self fulfilling prophecy, someone with thier finger on a button thinking they're supposed to do it. probably at the end of the Mayan Calendar.

My theory: The guy who was writing the Mayan Calendar just got bored with it and went to do something else (or died?)

Reliability and simplicity are absolute neccessities for a TEOTWAWKI weapon. My AK tears down into a total of 5 parts field stripped, about 12 for a thorough teardown, and maybe 20 parts if I pulled apart the clockwork and internals too. It also offers a decent rate of fire, and a reputation of being bombproof. The fewer components there are, the less there is to go wrong.

El Caca,

I've owned AR15 type rifles continuously since 1984. In those 26 years I've had MANY other types of semi-auto "military style" rifles:

* AK47 (Bulgarian, Chinese, Egyptian, Hungarian, Yugoslavian)
* ArmaLite AR180
* Beretta AR70
* Daewoo AR100
* Daewoo K2
* FAL (DSA and Imbel)
* FN49
* Heckler & Koch HK91
* Heckler & Koch HK93
* IMI Galil 386
* M1 Carbine
* M2 Carbine (Class 3 - Full Auto)
* M1 Garand
* Sig Sauer Sig556
* SKS
* Springfield Armory M1A (Bush, Scout, SOCOM, Standard, Match)
* Steyr AUG
* Valmet 76 Folder* Valmet 76 Folder
* OTHERS

BUT....I could never let go of my comfort level and the superb ergonomics of the AR15 design.

Eventually, I sold all of my high dollar preban "exotics" and decided the AR15 would be my go-to gun for the rest of my life.

Then about a year ago my fears about the AR's "poop where it eats" design started to weigh heavily on me again. This has always been my main concern about the design.

That lead me to buy a couple of AK's (I was down to my Colt AR15's, DSA FAL and Sig556).

After the SGL21 and SLR106 arrived my first impression was very very high. A lot of the crudity of manufacture I had endured on previous AK's was absent, and the accuracy was much better than previous guns.

The AK's BASIC design still leaves a lot to be desired (no bolt hold open, crappy safety location / operation, and short sight radius). HOWEVER, having trained fairly extensively with one now, I can say that your assessment is dead on:

The idiot proof simplicity and bombproof construction are the reasons I've decided to keep my SLR106FR in the "goto" slot.

I moved it there after using it in a carbine class, but started to wonder about my Sig556's superior accuracy and ergo's. I also started to think about the "keep the enemy at bay" capabilities of my M1A. However, reliability issues have made me decide against either of those designs.

In the end, the single most important feature of a gun is very simple for me:

It must fire. It must do so repetitively under adverse conditions. It must be simple and easy to maintain. It must require little maintenance.

The above is the definition of an AK.

Accuracy is important, but the sorts of engagements I envision myself in do NOT require gilded accuracy. I will try to avoid conflict at all costs so "reaching out" would never be an option for me. The only engagements I can see being unavoidable are all within the 200 meter range.

What do you guys think of Rock River's AR15?

Bill

Bill,

The price difference between a Rock River and either BCM or Colt isn't that big.

Buy a BCM (Bravo Company) or Colt. Daniel Defense makes a decent AR15 type rifle too.


http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p...amp;output=html

It will have to work....

I think that'll handle it's business just fine Smokering.

I am a fan, no doubt, of the AK design, but I won't downplay a well maintained AR. I was one of the few privates who never had a malfunction with thier weapon in basic, largely because I went into basic knowing to keep the thing clean. Even with a REALLY old worn out Colt M16A2, it still ran just fine, although the sears were pretty worn out and the three shot burst was more of a slow bap bap bap then a Burp like the newer FNs. A clean AR is a Happy AR. and with modern dry lubricants, the moondust in the middle east becomes less of an issue, and stateside I find debris malfunctions almost non-existant. Setting aside the beauracracy factor, the M16 isn't a terrible weapon, it just has a few kinks, nothing that can't be worked around. Hence why it's still around 50 years later.

Wanna know what Eugene Stoners solution to the extraction issues in the M16 was? Beef up the extractor clip, and add a second spring to it. No piston systems, no anti tilt bolt carriers, yada yada yada. I think if Eugene Stoner had that kind of confidence in his weapon, I can afford it the same.

Bill- A friend of mine owns a Rock River, I've shot it a few times now, and can't find anything bad about it, it's solid, doesn't rattle, and the only malfunctions it had were bad mags. They're a bit pricey for my tastes, especially for a DGI system, but a solid offering, and largely mil-spec parts. I particularly like thier proprietary rail systems, the half picatinny and half smooth handgaurds, they feel nice in the hand with the stock extended, and with the Magpul angled foregrip, it's FAST with the stock collapsed. Not a bad way to go if you want an AR.

El Caca,

Rock River Arms products are not mostly mil-spec. In fact, the following parts are NOT mil-spec

* Barrel material (4140)
* Standard without chrome lined bore (chrome is now an option though)
* Batch MPI barrel testing
* Bolts are not shot peened
* Batch MPI bolt testing
* Receiver extension is 1.17"
* Receiver extension is 6160 extruded
* Castle nut is not staked
* Gas key is improperly staked
* Standard twist rate is 1/9 (1/7 is optional)

Those are just the issues that pop into my head.

The price difference between a BCM or Colt and RRA is about $150-200. I'd spend the extra money.

I've owned 15 Rock Rivers and 27 Colts. I still have two Colts.

I stand corrected, I didn't know that many things weren't mil-spec. Thanks Arch

No problem El Caca - I wasn't trying to be a male sexual organ, but there is a lot of incorrect information about the various AR manufacturer's practices floating around the internet.



Thought of another couple of non-milspec RRA issue:

* Earlier rifles did not have the proper height "F Marked" front sight base - this makes setting the rear sight elevation difficult without replacing the front sight post.

* Rifle feed ramps instead of M4 ramps.

* Regular CAR buffer instead of H buffer.



I get asked a lot of questions about AR15 type rifles. Mostly since people around me know that I've owned and built them for the past 26 years. No AR "manufacturer" that I know of creates 100% of their own parts. Most "AR manufacturers" are actually "AR assemblers". They make some of their own parts, but outsource the majority of the actual manufacturing. Therefore, there are only two ways an AR Company can by competition in a saturated market:

1) Cut cost on assembly and quality control.

2) Buy seconds or lower quality components.

I guess there is a "third" strategy, but its more subjective:

3ish) Market products to a specific market niche. For example, Remington's AR (which is built by Bushmaster) is marketed toward hunters. Rock River Arms markets its products toward the aestetic or "tight tolerance" market.

No civilian AR15/M4 product is 100% milspec, because:

A) It has no giggle switch.
B) It does not have a removable flash suppressor mounted on a 14.5" barrel.

Some "milspec" issues are more important than others. For example....

* Proper barrel steel - this doesn't apply as much to civilians because they do not have full auto capabilities.

* MPI barrel testing - this is very important because it will detect imperfections in your barrel's structure. These imperfections typically won't affect a hobby shooter while running 90 rounds through his rifle at the range, but it might be an issue for a volume shooter or someone that is forced to "abuse" his rifle in a SHTF situation.

* MPI bolt testing and bolt shot peening - CRITICAL ISSUE!!!! The M4 bolt takes a beating. You need the best!

* F-Marked front sight - this is necessary for proper elevation adjustments.

* 1.14" 7075T6 forged receiver extension - if you bend / dent / or break your "buffer tube" the AR will not run. The milspec tube is stronger.

* M4 feed ramps - this helps cycle reliability.

Two more CRITICAL issues:

* Properly staked gas key

* Properly staked castle nut