good advise. let us know what you find at the swamp. i cnt go there with the kindle

Since were all talking about the 411, I was wondering if someone could guide me in the right direction. I am debating between the 3 and 4. The mudders are pulling me towards the 4, but I like the size of the 3. Anyone with both?

yeah i have both. what ya want to know

I've found some of my knives require some use and a few sharpening's before they settle down and hold an edge. I suspect your 411 will be like that. Keep us posted.

I will help ya out if you tell me what you need to know

I've got the 311, but not the 411....

However I have had experience with the mudder handles on the Scrapper 5, and I also had a Rodent 4 which is almost identical to the 411 except the handle is different.

The 311 handle feels great in my hands (which are on the smaller side), but if you have large hands you may not like the size of the handle.

The mudder grips also work great with my hands, but may feel better than the 311 handle for those with larger hands.

The 311 would have the advantage in terms of concealability, works great for all sorts of pocket carry.

It carries great on the belt with a tek-lok, and you have the option of carrying it horizontally at 1:00 or 11:00 without printing. The 411 would be too long overall for this method of carry...

I've also carried it vertically at 4:00 with no problems concealing it using a shirt as a cover garment.

It's short enough overall to work as a necker, although it may be a bit uncomfortable for that depending on your body type.

The 311 has a great balance to it, balances about 1/2" from where the blade meets the handle on the res-c.

I would expect the 411 to be more blade heavy than the 311, but less blade heavy than the Scrapper 5.

Ultimately, they are both great knives and the best choice can only be made by looking at what your intended uses would likely be....

Get the 411 and don't look back. One of the best designed blades I've seen yet.

As for hair/dirt being the issue, both SF45ACP and I have Gerber Freeman in S30V that will process 10-15 deer before it needs a stropping.

Edge geometry seems more like the culprit and I'm also intrigued by the "need to get down to the heat treated layer."

Had the same issues with the Rodent Solution and the War Dog.

Dan, if you have some answers, that would be great. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

+1^^^

Good insight, but we should be careful as there is a lot of information that could be interpreted incorrectly from this.

I do not know the heat treat processes that Busse/kin use, but you would have to look at the crystalline grain structures to really get an understanding about what type, if any, variation is obtained in the process.

Brittle is typically associated with higher hardness values, which is not necessarily associated with dulling easily. Chipping out, yes, but this isn't really a concern when cleaning a deer (or other "cutting" type motions that do not involve "chopping"). Arguably, higher RC (within reason) is a desired feature for a slicer so that it will retain it's edge longer.

If anything, one might argue that while the knife is originally sharpened...the edge is slightly annealed due to over-heating, creating a larger grain size and a localized softening effect (reduced RC)...which would make it more difficult to hold an edge. This annealing process would effectively alter the heat treat locally. This may explain what you're seeing...and as you sharpen below it, keeping temperatures low enough...you are able to reach the properly heat treated sections of the blade.

I can't confirm this, however, as destructive testing would need to be done for verification. Your experience speaks for itself.

Hey, Good well thought out explanation Max. Makes a lot of sense. Cause I guarantee, the "Busse Boys" know how to heat treat a blade!

Ish, if that's the case, it seems like a QC issue. How far down would the localized annealing reach on an improperly ground blade?

I'm most intrigued by this theory, but again, it would seem to be a theory at this point, although the one that makes the most sense so far. It would explain why some blades function well beyond my expectations while others have underwhelmed. The designs I've held have all been fantastic--clearly designed for use--but I'd hope for the cash that they'd all be GTG out of the box. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Maybe he should pm Renee and ask for input on the problem? Or better yet Dan.