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Re: B.O.B. (Bug Out Bags) [Re: jmosh] #44605 04/18/07 12:16 AM
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james_bond Offline
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..... Time to outfit the kids (4 year old can carry something!).


Have him cary extra ammo it is not too heavy.







wait, no, cancle that, lead is heavy.


JYD #25 Clinging to my Guns, Religion, and Scrapyards.
Re: B.O.B. (Bug Out Bags) [Re: diceman] #44606 04/18/07 12:21 AM
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48 hour notice has been posted on the other forum.


Horned, dangerous, and off my medication.
Re: B.O.B. (Bug Out Bags) [Re: james_bond] #44607 04/18/07 12:30 AM
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In the car I got a CS shovel, hachet, wool blancket, 2d Maglite with more batteries, matches, duct tape, water (I need to add more), Glock field knife, bungie cords, rope, first aid kit, radio, trash bags, wistle, and that is all I can think of right now. but the whole Kit is in a simple (cheap)canvas duffel bag. my home kit is in the works now but thus far includes a Marlin .22 my dogfather and howling rat XD in .45acp surefire, compass, matches and lighters, but needs more work (time and $$$)


JYD #25 Clinging to my Guns, Religion, and Scrapyards.
Re: B.O.B. (Bug Out Bags) [Re: james_bond] #44608 04/18/07 12:59 AM
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Ahhhh, Where to begin. In my F-350 Diesel (oh yea) I have a Kel-tech sub 40 with 30 rounds, 100' 0f climb line, a 40' chain, enough energy bars for a couple days and some candy (high sugar is good for quick energy), chap stick, rain gear and sweatshirt, rat3, DM, charging cords for phone, and few bottles of water. Aside from that I carry my Maxpedition bag With a Glock 27, extra mag, 2 rolls of life savers, 20 feet of paracord, a pen, 2 small flashlights, (one is a fenix the other is a wolf eyes with impact bezel), and a H1 spyderco full serrated blade.
Now my bag I keep under the bed is a bit more complex I have 20 loaded 30 round mags for the AR with 3X9 scope and an extra 1000 rounds, Maxpedition bag with strider knife and Dog Father, Kevlar vest, Misc. clothing, some food and water, Springfield XD 9mm with 3 mags and 500 rounds, plus a sling for the AR, and some misc stuff like water filter, glucose tabs, some black plastic garbage bags (very handy for heat retention and rain gear and it is black)also I have some amo and face grease. If I have enough time I will grab the 2 5 gal. cans of diesel in the garage, and my 30.06 Ready for 1000 yard plus!!). I need 10 minutes in the house to get all I need Genorator,food, ammo, etc. Oh don't forget my 12 copies of Catcher In The Rye. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by stansbrew; 04/18/07 01:01 AM.

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Re: B.O.B. (Bug Out Bags) [Re: stansbrew] #44609 04/18/07 01:55 AM
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diceman Offline OP
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Great stuff everyone - making me think of things that I need to add and think about. This is going to be fairly random and jumbled: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

A generator would be an excellent thing. So would some fuel cans. Too bad my Explorer is enclosed - I wouldn't really be able to keep fuel in ther without keeping all of the windows open - no point in trying to protect the family and then kill them all w/ gas fumes!

The biggest issue that I think I'd have in a hypothetical urban warfare kind of scenario (I'd be getting to the woods ASAP though) would be fuel. I've got everything that I could possibly need for extended survival in my truck, but once its out of gas, the camp is rather permanent!

I'm really excited about getting the M4 upper for my AR - it'll really round out my firearms. In my assault kit, after some thought, I'd be more likely to have my Glock 9mm w/ the 17rnd mags than my 1911 w/ the 8rnd mags.

Here's a question for you guys. How long is water good for in a sealed and sterile container? I've had my current 7 or 8 gallons of water in the back of my truck for about 4 months - time to change it? I've drank water from canteens that was 3-4 months old, but never older than that. Just curious.

I think that my heavy barrel 7.62x39 upper with my 9x scope should be good out to at least 600m at a man sized target. I know that 7.62x39 isn't great at long distances, but it has a great takedown to $$ ratio!!

Anyways, great stuff guys. This summer, I plan on going through all of my stuff and making sure that its good to go. I may have more of a "winter" and "summer" packing list like we had in the Army, but I'd always at least have the basics for all seasons. As my A-hole First Sergeant used to say... "It might be summer now, but if we go to war, it'll be winter before we come home."

This summer I plan on taking a number of 2-3 day camping trips (gotta schedule those around my wife's weekends off of work... or else its me an the 2 year old!). Going to work on the basic survival skill stuff... firecraft, water collection, traps, impovised fishing, etc. Should be a blast.

Thanks again for all of the tips, and Stan - great idea for a thread topic!


JYD#9
Re: B.O.B. (Bug Out Bags) [Re: diceman] #44610 04/18/07 01:58 AM
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And my copy of The Catcher In The Rye... Good call Stan.

[Linked Image from i163.photobucket.com]


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Re: B.O.B. (Bug Out Bags) [Re: diceman] #44611 04/18/07 02:28 AM
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Your welcome Dice- I think I do need to do some adjusting to my gear , I thought about it and I am missing the basic tool, FIRE, but I am sure I have a Bic in the truck. I need is a Hummer with about 1000 lbs. of gear too much to list, just imagine what we would need to make it as easy as possible.
Bottom line GUNS,AMMO,FOOD,WATER,SHELTER,FIRE. Chances are if something goes down we are going to have to pack it out , not drive.
Another bad thing is my wife works 45 minutes away, my kids go to school 20 minutes in the opposit direction and I work all over the place up to 1 hour away by truck. Scary stuff! Oh I also have a gas mask and I need 3 more and some extra filters, I carried it and my AR when 9-11 happened.
Desperate times call for desperate measures.
I think that even if we have the best BOB we will still be lacking something.
Great topic Diceman!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" />


JYD # 28
Re: B.O.B. (Bug Out Bags) [Re: stansbrew] #44612 04/18/07 03:02 AM
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When my family and I were stationed in Korea, we all had gas masks - something that they don't have here (I have one from the National Guard). Definately something that we should have though. Anywhere you know of that has good prices on surplus stuff?

Fire... I think that the ability to make fire and a knife are the 2 most important survival tools - bar none. A gun is the most important self defense tool. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> So the 3 of those are way up there on importance. I have a ton of firemaking stuff. I always carry a knife on me, and I have a flint/striker combo in a little pouch on my keychain (something I highly suggest to everyone). I always have fire and blade on my person, because odds are you're not going to be in the ideal place when the poop hits the fan, or when you get stranded. I should really have some paracord on me as well - maybe one of those paracord bracelettes or even just a braided lanyard on my key chain w/ the flint combo.


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Re: B.O.B. (Bug Out Bags) [Re: diceman] #44613 04/18/07 04:05 AM
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KnifeParty Offline
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And my copy of The Catcher In The Rye... Good call Stan.

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Dice you are the man. I love " The Shield " I just got done watching it right now.

Last edited by KnifeParty; 04/18/07 04:06 AM.

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[P]ositive [E]nergy [A]lways [C]orrects [E]rrors
Re: B.O.B. (Bug Out Bags) [Re: diceman] #44614 04/18/07 03:15 PM
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pitman Offline
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Some great kit you all have but my first thought was what if someone broke into your truck and swiped it !!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Re: B.O.B. (Bug Out Bags) [Re: pitman] #44615 04/18/07 04:40 PM
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The info below was from a presentation that I did to a group of friends several months ago.

Purpose
The purpose of these writings is to share some of my experiences with ****** members on preparedness kits and various types of gear that I have used or could be used in a bad situation. I want to give you ideas on what you might purchase to create a BOB for both you and your family. My comments are oriented towards a desert environment and based on information from web sites, books and my own personal experiences. For our purposes, the terms 72 hour kit, BOB, bug out bag, kit or survival kit will be used interchangeably. Before you start assembling your BOB, read this document. Then use the checklist at the end of this document to assemble your kit.

Some thoughts
I have never been on a sinking ship, battled zombies, survived a week long stay on the top of Everest, but I have been in some situations where I was ill prepared to deal with the problems presented. In each of these situations, there were certain things that would have been very helpful to me. A few basic items would have made my bad experience much easier to deal with.
A 72 hour “survival” kit is meant to provide basic necessities for a 3 day period of time. Why 72 hours? The idea is that by the end of the 72 hour period, one would be able to secure help, long-term assistance. Everyone in your party needs a BOB (or at least the contents of a BOB that someone else carries). Each individual does not necessarily need a separate kit, but the supplies needed by others will need to be included in someone’s BOB.

Essentials

Mental Preparedness
Mental preparedness will play an important role in both your survival and that of your family. I suggest that you spend some time thinking about how you and your family members act when they are stressed out. Maintaining your composure in front of others can be very helpful in making it through a tough situation. This is an area that you need to explore on your own.
Basic Survival Triangle
In general, the 3 top priorities in a survival situation in order of importance are:
1. Shelter
2. Water
3. Food
Survival literature mentions the rule of 3’s when talking about survival. This rule says that an individual can survive 3 hours without shelter, 3 days without water and 3 weeks without food. Some consider adequate clothing to be a form of shelter. In a cold environment, the traditional order of survival holds very true. In a hot desert environment, these 3 top priorities change a bit. Water, shelter, and then food is the order of priorities in the desert.

Shelter
This could be as simple as a black plastic garbage bag, an emergency blanket or a tent, but there is no reason not to at least carry some form of shelter. I have had many types of shelter over the years. I have used tarps, bivy sacks and tents. Emergency ponchos are inexpensive and can protect against rain and wind. A bright colored poncho can be used for signaling. One thing is for sure, if you are going to go to the trouble of carrying a tent, get a quality tent or don’t bother. Cheap tents are no good and good tents are not cheap. Plenty of quality tents are available at places like REI or Campmor and you can usually purchase a tent from last season’s line up for a discount. I have found that $200-$300 is usually the price point range where a quality 2-person tent can be purchased. A quality 4-6 person tent can run you several hundred dollars.
I would advise carrying a tent if you have children or are dealing with extremely cold temperatures. The weight of a tent can be distributed between 2 or more adults to lessen the load. The stress created from miserable children will be a major mental strain on everyone involved in the situation. Obviously there are natural shelters that can be made wherever you are. See the information link at the end of this document for further information on creating shelters.

Water
You must make accommodations to carry water as part of your kit. Everyone if your party will need an adequate water supply, not just you. This is one reason that I suggest you get a pack with a water bladder. One thing is for sure, our bodies are made mostly of water and without it you are in serious trouble. Remember the rule of 3’s. I suggest that you figure out how much water that you consume during various activities and carry accordingly. Water weighs approximately 8 pounds per gallon excluding the container it’s in. Everyone has different degrees of physical fitness and the amount of water that I need may not be the same amount that you need.
Some of the survival literature I have read recommends carrying 1 gallon of water a day as a minimum. As the temperatures increase, you might find that between 2-5 gallons of water is needed. In these more extreme temperatures it is recommend that you move at night and rest during the day if possible. Given that we are talking about potentially carrying what you (and potentially your family) need on your back, you will need to carry as much water as you reasonably can.
Although water purification is something that might not be part of your survival kit, it’s worth mentioning here. Boiling water is also beneficial in making water safer from bacteria, but chemicals are needed in order to kill viruses. I have used Potable Aqua tablets successfully on several occasions. There is a product called Aqua Mira that received good reviews from many serious hikers. A quality filtration system from MSR or Katadyn can be very useful as well. These devices can clog however, and having a replacement cartridge with you is a good idea.
This is an area that requires some research on your part as these different methods of purification and filtration focus on killing different types of bacteria and viruses. Here is an article that discuses some of the details. In a best case scenario, you use a combination of these purification methods to get the best results. Anti diarrhea medicine should also be part of your medical kit as this condition will lead to dehydration.

Food
Food that does not need much preparation and has a long shelf life is ideal for a BOB. Things like Power Bars, MRE’s (meals ready to eat), powdered Gatorade, Top Ramen, nuts, peanut butter, beef jerky and trail mix are all good examples of food for you kit. Canned food also works, but it’s very heavy. There are meals that you can add hot water to that come in a plastic pouch as well. You can find these at camping stores like REI. If you have a baby or someone that has a specific food allergy, you need to plan accordingly. Powered baby formula may be necessary (as well as a bottle and nipples) if you have an infant that you need to feed. It may not be mom’s milk, but it will get the job done. Food will need to be rotated out of your kit periodically so that it does not spoil. No need to plan on gourmet meals here. We are talking about survival. I suggest checking food on a monthly basis.

Packs, Duffle Bags and Other Containers
Keeping all of your supplies inside of a large plastic trash bag will help keep your kit dry. I suggest using a backpack to keep your kit in. A backpack allows your hands to remain available to perform other tasks, from carrying wood, carrying your child or using a weapon. I prefer discrete packs, something that does not say “hey look at me, I am a survivalist gun nut come take all my [censored]”. Avoid camouflage packs if possible. A duffle bag will also work, but make sure it can be slung over your shoulder.
I actually use a smaller pack in the summer and a bigger pack in the winter. A good school backpack, Camelbak, Eagle pack or military issue OD Alice pack will work fine given what capacity you need. A pack that has a water bladder is a necessity. REI or Campmor have quality packs if you need something with more capacity than a standard day pack (in case you need to carry kit for someone like a child who can’t carry a pack or someone who is handicapped).
A duffle back will work here as well. In fact, I keep many of the items listed in the additional items section of this paper in a couple of duffle bags. These can be thrown in to a vehicle on a moments notice. These bags can be used to replenish supplies if needed in whatever environment you find yourself in.
For vehicle transport and longer terms supplies, plastic storage containers can be used to store gear and a quality container should protect your gear in the event it gets wet. Places like Lowes and Home Depot carry these types of items. See the pictures section for containers that I use.

Medical Needs
I have no medical experience whatsoever so do your own research. However, I do know that when I have a headache, I take aspirin and when I have a small cut, I put a band aid on it. Initially, I purchased a pre packaged medical kit for my BOB. I have since made my own. Unless you have the medical expertise (or do enough research) to build you own, buy one and understand how to use what’s in it. I have purchased a kit from REI and I have added some stuff that I have found useful. These kits expire and need to check every 6 months to make sure the medicine has not expired. If you find a kit “on sale” check the expiration date on the medicine and you will find it’s either expired or will expire very soon. If you plan on taking care of your family, then a day hiker kit is not going to cut it, remember that you need to plan for everyone in your party. Here are some additional items that I have in my medical kit that did not come with the one I purchased:
• Toilet paper is a must. It can also be used as tinder or to take notes on. You can smash the roll down and compress it a bit. It should be stored in a Ziploc or water tight bag.
• Sun screen.
• Moleskin – this stuff works to prevent blisters and ease the pain once you have them. Duct tape will also work although the residue can be messy.
• Sanitary Napkins – yes you read that correctly. Unless you are a single guy, pack them or make sure you girl does.
• Multi-vitamins – good source of nutrients to supplement food supplies.
• Allergy medicine – I am allergic to bee stings so I carry an antihistamine.
• Lip balm or Petroleum Jelly – Petroleum Jelly is mildly flammable and can be used to water proof tinder. Nothing like a little lip balm on chapped lips.
• Got diapers? Don’t forget about the children’s needs.
• Any special medicine like asthma medicine needs to be accounted for.
• Un-lubricated condoms - can be used to carry and store water.

Clothing
Obviously, you need to adjust your clothing for the time of year which is why I have a summer BOB and a winter BOB. Come fall, I move my kit from my summer pack to my winter kit and add cold weather gear.
Cotton clothing is very beneficial in summer heat because it retains sweat and keeps moisture close to your body keeping you cooler. In the winter, the same property of cotton clothing that keeps you cool in the summer does the same thing when it’s cold. Mountaineers have a saying, “cotton kills”. I can attest to the disadvantage of using cotton clothing in the winter.
Synthetic (or a natural material like wool) material is preferred in the cold as it does not retain moisture very well. Moisture is pulled away from your body (“wicked away”) in to the air or the next layer of clothing you have on. REI and Campmor have all sorts of synthetic cold weather gear.
Quality synthetic cold weather gear is very compressible and very lightweight. Both of these are very desirable qualities. Down (duck or goose feathers) is a very warn natural material, but it looses much of its warming properties when it’s wet. Have you every sleep in a wet down sleeping bag? It sucks. Wool is a natural material that does not collect much moisture but it’s relatively heavy when compared to nylon filaments.
I believe that every member of your party should have a hat and gloves from infants to adults. The sun can be brutal and a sun burn can make you miserable. In addition, a cold weather hat can keep your body from loosing a significant amount of heat. A good set of leather gloves will protect your hands from basic work duties like changing tires or chopping wood. I also suggest you carry bandanas. They can provide shade form the sun and cam filter large debris from water sources.

Fire
You must have multiple sources from which to make fire. Every kit should have multiple ways to create a spark. I have tried and used many different methods to start a fire. I suggest that you carry 3 sources of spark, Bic lighters, a magnesium stick or “fire steel” and water proof matches.
I have found that Zippo lighters dry out too quickly to depend on them in a BOB. Some people swear by them, I don’t. Bic’s are a proven lighter, cheap knock off lighters suck, get over it and pay the extra $1 for a Bic. Get a pack of Bic’s and distribute them throughout your BOB’s.
I have successfully used a magnesium stick to start fires in very cold and wet environments. The issue with this tool is that dry tinder is critical. The idea is that you scrape off flakes of magnesium in to a pile and the use a flint stick (usually integrated on the block of magnesium) and a piece of metal (I have found that a piece of a hacksaw blade works best or a knife) to create a
spark to ignite the magnesium. These are inexpensive tools, but you need to practice with them at home before using them in the field. Wind can also blow the magnesium flakes all over hell and back which is frustrating when your hands are frozen.
Waterproof matches are inexpensive and work well. There is a difference in the quality of waterproof matches, don’t buy crappy matches. You can also dip normal matches in wax to waterproof them, but I suggest buying waterproof matches off the shelf.
Dry tinder is critical in starting a fire. I have successfully used Wetfire in very bad conditions to start a fire using wet tinder. I really like this product. Lint from your dryer stored in a waterproof container works. Cotton balls also work. Emergency candles are nice because they can be used as a light source and they burn for a very long time.
The final point about fire is that you need to store your sources for fire in different places. If you loose your pack or need to ditch it and you have all of your means to start fire in your pack, you are screwed. Carry a source of fire on your person, in your pack and stashed on other places as well.

Tools
A few basic tools are an essential part of your BOB. One more note about tools. Make sure that you test any tools that you include in your kit before including them. I have purchased a few different tools in the past that have broken apart with very little use.
In my opinion, a knife is mandatory, in fact, a couple of knives should be part of your kit. I prefer at least one 4-7 inch fixed blade knife. I recommend a quality American made (with a few exceptions) knife. A quality knife from Frosts of Sweden ($6-$30), not the Frost Cutlery overseas crap, Ranger Knives ($70-$150), KaBar ($40-$100), Camillus ($30-$50), Becker Knives ($50-$100), Swamp Rat ($150-$250), Busse ($200-$400), Swiss Army Knife ($20-$100) are all great choices. Regardless of your budget there are plenty of options out there.
I also recommend a multi tool be included in your kit. These range in price from $40 to $100. American made tools are what I suggest. These types of tools typically have a knife blade or 2, a saw, a screwdriver or two and a can opener. The popularity of these tools has lead to some pretty elaborate setups and most people have one (or a few in my case) of these lying around.
Another tool that I like to have is a saw. You can either depend on the saw blade on a multi tool or you can purchase a dedicated saw from Fiskars. A dedicated saw will be much more efficient than a saw on a Swiss Army Knife.
A good folding knife can also be a great addition to your kit because they are lightweight. I suggest that you get one with a locking blade. Even some Swiss Army knives have locking blades now. Check out the One Handed Trekker model, it has a saw as one of its tools as well as a locking blade.
I have many knives from all of the companies I mentioned above (usually multiple knives from each company) if you want to handle them before you make a decision, just let me know.
Firearms
Since this discussion is directed at ******, I will just say that a firearm that can be concealed on your person is beneficial here. Citizens were stripped of their weapons post Katrina. Being discrete is essential in a bad situation.

Survival Kits
There are a number of ideas surrounding what should be in a survival kit. I suggest you go to http://www.equipped.org and assemble a kit based on your needs.

Supplemental Items
I actually have these larger items in a couple of big duffle bags and large plastic containers that can be tossed in to my vehicle on a moments notice.
Sleeping Bags
Get a quality sleeping bag. I have had great success with the SnugPak line of sleeping bags, specifically the Softie 6. This sleeping bag is a bit bigger than a football when compressed and is very lightweight. Once again REI and Campmor have all sorts of sleeping bags. A quality lightweight sleeping bag is not cheap. A quality bag is money well spent, trust me on this one.

Stoves
There are quite a few options in the camp cooking area. Visit REI and Campmor for further information here. I have used this stove from Coghlan’s successfully on many occasions. The fuel tablets can also be used to light a fire. Stove’s are like GPS units, there are many of them out there, pick one that meets your needs.
I suggest you have a cooking pot of some kind to boil water in. I use a 5 inch diameter aluminum grease trap I picked up at Wal-Mart for $7. If you really want to go big there are Titanium cook sets available for around $50, I did not find they have any real advantage over aluminum for a BOB type of kit given the large difference in price.

Tools
A quality entrenching tool is a good tool to have in your supplemental supplies. It can be used to dig a toilet, create a trench around your sleeping area to prevent flooding or clear rocks away from your camp.
A machete can be useful to take down brush or cut up small trees for creating a shelter. These are inexpensive tools that can also be used for defensive purposes. I have successfully used the 12” Camper Machete from Ontario knives for all sorts of camp chores.
An axe is another option that can either replace or supplement a saw or large fixed blade. I have used the Fiskars axe’s with success. They are relatively lightweight and very durable.
Bolt cutters could be very useful in an urban environment or in the field to cut apart fencing or break locks.
A pry bar is another inexpensive tool that could be helpful in an urban environment. They can be used to open doors, break windows and as a defensive tool.

Checklist
Let the games begin. Lets get started making a BOB. We will exclude the supplemental items that I listed above since you may or may not carry these items.
Step 1: Clear a large area in your living room or some place where you can lay out your gear.
Step 2: Assemble the items from the checklist below.
Water
Para cord 50ft.
3 Bic lighters
Clothing (seasonal)
Wetfire or other Tinder
Batteries
1 magnesium stick or fire steel
Cash
1 box waterproof matches
1 signaling mirror
1 compass
1 survival kit
1 GPS unit
1 multi-tool
1 leather gloves
1 knife & sharpener
1 hat
1 hooded emergency poncho
1 sunglasses
1 Emergency candle
Sunscreen
1 small flashlight
3 bandanas
1 cooking pot
Lib balm or Vaseline
1 bottle or bag of multi-vitamins
1 survival book
2 Motorola radios
2 large quality garbage bags
Saw (optional)
1 small amount duct tape
1 deck playing cards (optional)
1 chemical water treatment
1 plastic or nylon tarp (optional)
Food
1 stove (optional)
3 un-lubricated condoms
Hatchet (optional)
1 first aid kit
1 plastic fork (optional)
1 roll toilet paper in zip loc
1 plastic spoon (optional)
1 sheet 8x11” paper in zip loc
1 small AM/FM radio (optional)
1 pencil
1 prepaid calling card (optional)

Step 3: Place all items that would get damaged if they got wet in to zip loc bags. You can also use other types of “ditty bags” to keep the gear above assembled.

Step 4: Find a backpack or duffle bag that will hold all of the gear above. The idea here that you start out with your kit first and then find a bag that will accommodate the contents of your kit.

Step 5: Print out this checklist and put the date that your kit was assembled and the date that you need to check on the kit to recycle food, batteries and medical supplies.


JYD # 19
Re: B.O.B. (Bug Out Bags) [Re: J33psr0ck] #44616 04/18/07 05:23 PM
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Wow, some Very good stuff here!
Will have to go back and read the details more slowly.

Stansbrew brings up a good point about diesel.. you can idle it all night if you had to. From what i understand many military vehicles are diesel, so when enemy fuel is captured, the diesel engines aren't very picky about octane or refinement.

As for vehicle.. i've thought about different things.. but still not sure yet.
4WD is a given. But big, medium, small? 4-cylinder engine for fuel efficiency?
These are some of the things i'm mulling over.

The same caliber rifle/pistol idea is neat, but I live out in the desert.. so range, downrange punch are important to me.
I'm currently researching buying or building a "Jeff Cooper Scout Rifle" bolt rifle in .308 for my "one" rifle, i'd prolly do a carbine.

But anyways.. Great thread! i have a lot to learn..

Last edited by tony22r; 04/18/07 05:25 PM.

JYD #5 "If you don't buy one now, you'll just kick yourself later.." -Karnack
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