FOOD - our fragile system and the powers that seek to control it.

Food is not as fun to discuss as guns, knives, and other essentials. However, it is, in my somewhat informed decision, likely to play a critical role in whatever large scale catastrophe is awaiting mankind.

I neither condone nor encourage the consumption of humans. However, I have researched the historic evidence about canniblism throughout history in protracted survival circumstances as part of my attempt to educate people moderately aware of the perils facing mankind. Again, the purpose of my research was to shock individuals into understanding the depth of seriousness a food crisis creates. I would never resort to the act as I hold humanbeings in extremely high regard and have no interest in defiling the dead.

My knowledge is related to deep research into human behavior while subjected to extreme survival circumstances. I conducted corresponding research into contemporary views regarding depravitity to gauge the likelihood of savage behavior in modern times. The topic generally enraged uninformed individuals who espoused a utopian vision of the end times wherein all people would join hands and sing kumbaya. This is in obvious contradiction to all historic evidence regarding human behavior in critical circumstances. The level of self delusion I encountered, ironically, reinforced my concerns about a canabalistic apocalyptic scenario as many in the now defunct "prepper movement" where woefully under prepared for the realities of a world without the rule of law. Therein these individuals would have participated (willingly or unwillingly) in the creation of the very environment they denied had existed.

We must all remember that our "first world" view of food has changed. Most individuals do not grasp the fragility of our food supply and distribution systems. Thus, they anticipate the never ending availability of Twinkies at Wal-Mart. Their cupboards are as bare as their knowledge of food production, food acquisition and preservation.

The "first world" has never been more susceptible to a food crisis than now.

I cannot buy a bell pepper made in the United States locally. One major EMP event and every subjected tractor, cultivator, and semi truck will stop working. The government subsidizes soybean and corn so fields once being soil enriched with cattle manure are now covered with these crops. Therefore, farmers do not even possess the beasts of burden required to till, plant, and harvast crops in the traditional ways.

GMO is also invading every corner of US agriculture. If you're uniformed about the potentially castrophic effect of GMO food ask a biologist what they think about people releasing invasive species into nature. They'll likely tell you about the havoc created by the apple snail and others. Short story: they destroy the indigenous species. Now, what happens when an organization creates "patented food" that cross breds with indigenous species? Monsanto sues the farmer for patent infringement. They have not been defeated in court. This is a serious issue on two fronts: heirloom seeds are disappearing (the only type of seed capable of producing the same plant from harvasted seeds) and one mega corporation is exerting increasing control over our food supply: they will literally sue you if their product falls out of a grain truck and sprouts on your property.

Randy, if this topic is too incendary - delete the post.

Gary, I think that it is a VERY good Post! We here like guns and knives, that is a given. TO ME that also means we are concerned about life in a Post apocalyptic situation, one in which we HOPE we would survive until our NORMAL lifespan ends. YES, it would be a much different life, more difficult on ALL levels, but one that again we all wish we would survive.

Patty and I were just talking the other day about "Heirloom" seeds/plants and also, don't forget animals. I suspect that not many "Ranchers" raise their animals without the benefit of modern science.

Absolutely - great comment on animals.

We raised all of our chickens without growth hormones, antibiotics, non-organic feed. We felt the strongest would survive. They did. Their offspring were stronger for it.

I am sure the information is out there, but I wonder how many people the world (specifically the United States/Canada) would support if we had to depend on TRUE Horse power and the REAL Sweat of our Brows for our lives and seeds/plants from a bygone era.

I have access to enough MRE's to last Patty and I through about any disaster that we might have to go through here in Southeast Missouri, but that is NOT survival, that is just surviving through a disaster of some sort, NOT a life long change.

Gary,

I have used "The Walking Dead" show as a conversation piece with some people not about "survival" but about human nature. One friend is Eastern European and is always saying "why did they have to kill or leave that person, if they all just worked together...etc etc". And my position is, sadly, there are people they should have dealt with or abandoned sooner. To emphasise my point (that in any post apocalyptic scenario - be it Zombies (yes I feel you cringe from here mate ) or a food crisis the MOST dangerous thing will be OTHER PEOPLE.

Like those points you have already made, the trend will be that people decent into the most basic state of "surviving". In many cases that will be indirectly at the expense of others but in many cases directly so.

The example I use at work now centres on OMCGs (Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs) or MEOC (Middle Eastern Organised Crime) but can include any criminal gang/organisation. They ALREADY don't conform to any sense of social norm and happily flaunt laws and harm others for their own gain. Just how does anyone think they would behave when the rules went out the window and the constraints of society that exist now (however fragile) were no more ? They certainly would not be doing a "Toy Run" or collecting canned food for Syrian refugees. They would attempt to take control and they would use all the violence and contempt that they could. I would propose much like "ISIS" without the religious justification.

Trust will no doubt be one of the rarest commodities in existence.

Andy,
I agree 100% with you.

In the past, I had ongoing and escalating arguments with self proclaimed preppers who had this utopian view of the end times. They all wanted to call me out as pessimistic and even "dangerous" for discussing the "72 hours to animal" principle. Ironically, these same people were enthralled with the Z (twice in one day is way too much) concept. Some even attended a themed ball. I found it hard to reconcile their absolute refusal to acknowledge we won't "ascend" into a neo socialist agriarian society but instead will DECEND into a hellish nightmare wherein staying alive is virtually impossible with their love of all things Z (THREE TIMES!).

That particular group eventually banned me from their site after I had made THOUSANDS of contributing posts with gear reviews, etc.

I am most leery of these types of individuals. They're physically armed but mentally unprepared for the stark and bleak prospects of a cataclysm. Some openly WANTED something to happen. These people are complete unknowns. Their inability to cope with the psychological realty makes me fear they will turn to uber predators. These people were mostly well armed and trained types.

Yes mate there is a fine line of "something" that holds together our "civilisation", in recent years we have seen what can happen when that line is strained and not even broken (LA Riots, Katrina in NO, London in 2012, Macquarie Fields and Redfern here in Aus, Ferguson MO, RAWANDA in 94, Sierra Leone), some of those examples are left field and people will argue "Third World" but the reality is that the human beastie is only just under the surface already in many societies.

I have significant first hand experience dealing with the worst society has to offer. I know and have seen the depravity and violence that some will inflict on others for either fun or just to make a point, I do truly hate to imagine what it would look like without any constraints in place whatsoever. Feudal warlord'ish I suspect.

I see one of the hardest tasks in such circumstances is to maintain one's humanity. I am already pretty hard of heart, whilst also being the guy trying to gently steer people in the right direction. If push comes to shove I am afraid I will be short on "the milk of human kindness" but I firmly believe that I will not become a "general predator". The scared and unprepared (psychologically and physically) actually scare me more than the truly bad. They will be rash, ill considered and hysterical. All things that are very difficult to easily manage. They will be the people that would see everything lost because they have little and are bleating on about it/jealous etc. Or they will be the ones who will run to the predators looking to sell another out for a small morsel.

At least the truly bad/predacious are predictable in so far as the avenue to best manage them is clear.

Oh and ...Zombie Zombie Zombie....

Ditto on top quote.

You are hard of heart on the bottom quote.

My family has been building up a reserve of non GMO seeds for around 5 years now we have and grow enough of the essentials to be GMO free most of the time but yes some veggies are almost impossible to get viable non GMO.

Greaser, for the veggie "Seeds" you are having a hard time finding NON GMO, check with Amish and Mennonites you have living in your area. They may not have what you are looking for, but MIGHT have a source from other areas/parts of the country.

This is a great thread! It, by it's very nature is something that does have in impact on ALL of us. The natural course of discussion from strictly food (production/procurement and sustainability) to the degradation of society is a normal course for this, and IS something that needs discussed.

Like Andy, I, in my normal course of providing a living for myself and my wife deal with the dregs of society routinely. Now I don't have to put up with what those in a larger metropolitan area do (at least not often), but I do still see what mankind will digress to in a somewhat normal world and that leads me to KNOW BEYOND ALL DOUBT what some will do when there is no law except what a person can provide for themselves.

Greaser, remember seeds must be stored a certain way or their ability to sprout decreases.

Seeds bought at the store in those paper packets will start failing about two years of being stored in an "airtight" ziplock bag with minimal exposure to light. We've been experimenting with storage and seed effecancy for the past 10 years. It is best to vaccum seal the seeds in a moisture dead environment and then place the VS bags inside another container that permits zero light transmission. Store as cool as possible.

Fortunately, many local stores are starting to sell Organic and non-GMO seeds. Walmart, Menard's, Lowe's, and Tractor Supply all carry them now. Be aware that the new hybrid organic varieties are NOT good for seed saving. Hybridization creates a wildcard plant from the saved seed. DO NOT SEED SAVE HYBRID SEEDS.

This year we're experimenting with growing in earth boxes. This is our first year so we don't know if this is a sustainable solution for those with limited growing space. The EB yields are suppose to be immense, but EB require the additional of certain all natural highly specific fertilizers. We will determine (over time) if the fertizers are shelf stable and the EB option viable for long term food production after a situation wherein regular commerce is disrupted (i.e. Cannot buy the fertilizer).

We also joined a local organic CSA. Our share will likely be eaten fresh while our EB production will be dedicated to preservation (canning). If we find a specifically useful veg from the CSA will buy into more of that particular veg next year (along with our regular share). Supporting an organic CSA is a systemic method of combating food imports, domestic GMO, and the general fragile "1000 food miles" system. NOTE: it has been stated most food travels about 1000 miles before it reaches your table.

What kind of place did Y'all move to Gary? House/suburban area or more conventional apartment/condo?

A note on imported foods:

Unfortunately we have been buying imported products with increasing frequency. This obviously is an enormous philosophical issue for us as we're personally knowledgable about this issues. HOWEVER, it also places pressure on American companies to provide products we want. For example, we only buy orangic (usually domestic) and imported cheese. Why imported? All of the Irish cheeses we buy are produced from 100% free range grass fed cows. Their milk is as nature intended. Further, many European countries have prohibitions on GMO, hormone, anti-biotic use, etc.

My wife spends a great deal of time researching and vetting a specific company and product prior to our purchase. However, we often become reliable and dedicated customers once we find the "right products".

This isn't a solution to long term production and preservation, but it is another battle in the food wars. Everyone of us is responsible for forcing domestic (doesn't matter what country your from) suppliers and producers to provide the products we demand. This battle is a financial one. Don't spend your food dollars on the cheapest option. Buy the best option for you (notice I didn't say the most expensive. We all have differing financial situations and make decisions accordingly. However, food is not a place to save budget dollars).

Since My blood sugar went nutso a few months back we have tried to buy/eat better. We are buying a few organic items (not all that many around here, at least until the farmers markets get up and running) and it ain't easy. When you've eaten for convenience all your life, changing is REAL hard.

1/2 acre in a very nice suburban subdivision.

I mention the "very nice" portion because this provides security in peace time and danger in a collapse. The following isn't meant to be perceived as bragging, but is designed as "food for thought" (pun intended)....

Our house is on a semi private "loop" (one way in and one way out). The HOA is EXTREMELY proactive (you receive notice if your automatic yard light isn't working or if your trash cans aren't taken into your garage the evening of trash pick up or if a vehicle parks on the street in front of your house instead of the driveway). The HOA also has a 12 person team that walks the 7 miles of roads late at night. The public lakes (owners / members of the HOA have access ... Not the public at large) are watched and patrolled by a five member "shore watch". Now this all sounds great, but we're talking about volunteers (retirees, stay at home moms, etc). We pay the local Sherrif's Department to provide two Deputies on Halloween. We stock the lakes so a food and water source is available in a crisis. The subdivision is slightly outside of town.

Overall, it is a very safe place to live. IN PEACE TIME.

The downsides are:

1) The population density is extremely high. We have over 1200 people living along 7 miles of road. (I believe the minimum lot is 3/16 acre and I have one of the largest). This will deplete resources (lake fish) quickly. Hungry people are scary people. Contemporary American homes are not securely built.

2) We will be a target for looters. However, I've already observed a number of home owners with firearms in our short time here. We have a hunter across the street, two AR15 owners within 8 houses of ours, a retired Army Ranger (retired LTC with a sophisticated security system) across the street, and another Hunter within 12 houses. This was all observed without broaching the topic of a mutual neighborhood defense. The stark reality is this won't matter once people get hungry.

3) We have enough land to produce more than enough food for us. However, the covenants prohibit visible in ground gardens and animals. Therefore, we'd have to cultivate virgin soil in a crisis. This is very challenging (especially while trying to defend against hundreds of hungry sheeple neighbors and outside looters). We're building an earth box garden as a result. We will also add a semi-commercial grade green house in a few years (if I can get approval from the building review committee...and based upon my vocation I'm fairly confident ).

The reality is this isn't a sustainable location unless enough like minded individuals cooperate to create mutual defense and labor sharing force. See my early comments about kumbaya...

We all face the food challenge. Your local Walmart is likely carrying organic foods now. Be sure to ask detailed questions of your suppliers at farm markets. Ask about fertilizer use, etc.

We've all subcomb to the convenience food trap. It's easy to stop at a drive thru on the way home or to order a pizza. This is alright OCCASIONALLY if you chose well (Jason's Delis, Moe's, etc are chains that have healthier options and even "good" options if you discount the hidden calories and processed food component). The idea is to win the war knowing you'll lose a few battles.

We try to have some healthy "easy comfort foods" available at home. This includes a couple of organic frozen pizzas (we use to order them thru Azure Standard but they're now available in most frozen food sections), a box of organic poptarts, etc. These products aren't the normal fare - they are special treats for occasional use.

Many people think they don't have time to eat properly. If anyone is reading this, and feels that way you need to re-evaluate your life. Your priorities are very skewed. Up until the mid 20th century most of a person's time was spent in the pursuit of and preparation of food. Food is the single most important item on your daily agenda. Plan your life around your meals and you'll find a whole new appreciation for life.

I'm happy to hear you haven't abandoned the "Land Owner" lifestyle completely (ie. apartment/condo). I AM saddened though that you can't have a garden (did I read that correct?) or IF you build a fence you can garden?

Personally I detest Home Owner Associations, as I feel they are to restrictive as to what you can do with YOUR property. Then again I'm not prone to Trashing our place. (We have a small BBQ and the trash can beside the house and I think that is kinda messy).

Anywho, best of luck to you and your Bride and perhaps when you are my age you CAN have the place you want and still be healthy enough to manage it.

You are correct about Wally world, the ones near here are going more organic.

PLUS Patty "Discovered" a store about a month and a half ago called Schnucks. It is a slightly higher "Class" grocery and they have a lot more organic and other "Better for you Food" We plan on doing more shopping there.

Well my relief is here so I am outta here. I will be back on sometime today.

As a note: I at the office a minimum of 10 hours a day. A 14 hour day isn't terribly uncommon.

We still manage an amazing food life.

If you're married (and especially if you have children) you have to develop a team strategy toward food. My wife likes to eat (and somehow stays at about 115 pounds) so our road was easier than someone who for example hates to cook. However, we use food as "family time". This has many facets:

I come home for lunch to a delicious freshly prepared salad every day;

We talk about meal planning and discuss food in a fun way;

She reads about food and shares her findings with me;

We often un-plant our bottoms from in front of the idiot box and spend time exploring the food isles together (more organic products are showing up everyday);

We bought a house with a kitchen designed for people who like to cook and eat. We spend time in it together. This may be me sitting and talking or doing something else but we're together making it less of a chore;

At times we cook together;

I try to help with clean up to help promote a healthy marriage and food atmosphere;

We plan trips around food;

We attend farm markets, lectures, and farm visits together;

We share food information with anyone that will listen;

So forth.

I bring this up to illustrate food isn't only about nourishment. Food is the cornerstone of life, society, and family.

Yes, the Schnucks family is committed to the organic movement. They were one of the first family owned groceries to do so. Their prices have decreased significantly in recent years.

I forgot to mention:

Target (Greatland and Super scale stores) have a fairly robust organic and non-GMO food selection.

We've been "organic" for the better part of a decade. This isn't a "cheap" option, but we chose to do it because of our knowledge of traditional ag practices. "How much is your life worth?". Cancer, obesity, diabetes, etc.

HOWEVER, for those getting started on a healthy food path always look for the "NON-GMO" label. This is a growing movement we have to support if we want to have freely available food for the generations to come.

Yes I sound like a preacher...it is Sunday.

Hey, I LIKE preachers (IF they know what they are talking about, and you have proven time and again you do). Preach it brother!

I think that discussions like this are what brings folks together, gets folks to thinking about different "Lifestyles" and ways of doing things.

Before You came on the scene here, I wasn't really trying to prepare for anything! But now, I am trying, albeit in my bumbling stumbling slow way. It is fun.

I know it will sound like I am blowing my own horn, but I am glad I started the nutrition thread. It has brought forth some good stuff and I think it maybe spawned this thread. THIS is a GOOD thread. When folks talk about survival they often concentrate (as you said) on the weapon, kill them all, aspect and totally neglect the most important of the survival mindset, FOOD. Most folks who talk survival talk about freeze dried, MRE, or long term "Kits" which I feel do have their place, but for true long term survival you MUST be able to grow your own food and so many foods today must be grown from hybrid or non reproducing seeds which create a whole set of problems.

Randy,
I just read this whole thread to my wife, and she mentioned "seeds must be open pollinated for seed saving. Heirloom means the species is at least 50 years old. Seeds must be open pollinated and non-GMO".

I'm glad we're straying into other areas of discussion, and happy to be a part of helping people help themselves.

I need to post in your nutrition thread...I've lost five pounds this week.

Randy, you've committed to sustainable self preservation and that is wonderful. It's never too early to start!

We're growing an earth box garden. My hands are cramping from typing all of this on my iPhone ...will post more about it later. Plan on a special thread showing our progress.

COOL on the posting and new thread. I REALLY enjoyed your "Green Acres" thread/posts.

Just looked up Earth Box Gardens. Nice concept, but you (THEY say) only plant two tomato plants per box. Heck, we would need two or three just for the maters! Then there would be the green beans and the corn and...

OK, we MAYBE could get by with two boxes for tomatoes but I don't know if one box (8 plants) would be enough for the beans (conventional green beans I am guessing according to their planting guide) and one would probably work for pole beans and MAYBE corn. This would maybe allow for having enough produce to actually put up some corn, but I am not sure about the beans and it for sure wouldn't allow for enough tomatoes to make in to juice.

Have you found out if you can plant (successfully) more than two tomato plants per box?

My wife ordered six Earthbox last night. We were going to go "bigger" but decided to start slow and work up. We've made the mistake of going huge before.

The yield from an Earth Box is apparently many times the yield from a ground planted specimen. We'll find out!

We're buying our organic soil from a Menard's.

We have been vacuum packing everything for about 3 years. (Best investment ever) I will have to double check and make sure we don't have any hybrids.

Grease, how does vacuum packing compare to canning? (longevity looks of the products etc. also do you then freeze them)?

We still can, I think they compliment each other. Vacuum seal is great for dry goods and things you will freeze canning is better for wet goods and premade food stuffs.

Just watched this on YouTube. What would REALLY happen.

https://youtu.be/pBr4aNJZQj0?si=ch5woEi2qjXBTiVy