Great post KnifeGuy...I agree with everything you wrote...

As to this blank knife blade - Id really like to see what it will retail for...! $100USD, $150 ????

By chance I just watched a guy on YouTube make a really nice knife from an old file ! Not in the same leauge as this Busse blank obviously, but a really neat thing to try...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ysKd1cswlo

KnifeGuy, again a well reasoned balanced argument. Celebrate the good, slam the bad, it's the only way to move things in the right direction.. As LE's aren't my thing, I'd just say, Dan send 'em out sharp!!

I like the Idea of a better edge. I 'll cover the blade with tough cloth and it sounds like it might be the same price?

Nothing really, you would just end up removing more coating higher up the blade with a nice higher convex beveled finish.




Depends on how you define "Zero Edge". But, basically no. (However, trying my best to be objective - see *** below).

Jerry posted a pic of a blade with the edge convexed about .25" - .375" in height and called it a "Zero Edge".

There is no reason that you "CAN'T put this type of edge on a coated blade. (BUT, in all fairness - see *** below)

Vic and others have posted MANY pics where they have done so. They just grind away some of the coating while re-profiling.

If stripping the whole blade, I recommend a chemical stripper as it is very fast and easy. Faster and easier than sanding off the entire coating.
You could remove the whole coating with a belt sander. However, depending on how much of the coating you have to remove, you could probably start to clog your sanding belt.

If just removing a little bit of the coating when re-profiling, for most "individuals" this will not be a big factor and the little bit of coating to be removed will sand right off without affecting the belts too much.

I always strip mine prior to doing anything else. So, I don't have any pics of a re-profiled edge on a coated blade.

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I would tend to think of a "Zero Edge" as a full height convex grind - one single grind line from spine to sharp. But.... ????

Anyway, it could still be done.

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Jerry stated:

"It is difficult to put this type of edge on a regularly finished knife since the edge finishing process usually rides up fairly high on the bevel."


I don't know what he is referring to when he said "Regularly finished".

If he were talking about a satin blade, yes it takes a few more minutes to put a decent edge on a knife. But, there is no reason this edge couldn't be provided - I believe it should.

*** If he were talking about a coated blade: I assume (fairly confident) the blades have the primary grind first, then coating, then sharpened.

With this line of procedure, coated blades and with a production quantity of knives, he would gum up a lot of sanding belts with epoxy coating being stripped more than usual - which is a cost factor.


I still wish they would (and believe they could) offer satin finished blades with good edges at just $10 - $20 or so above CG prices instead of way above CG prices. This would save me a lot of time and effort and be (IMO) a more reasonable price difference and ultimately a better knife and make me a much happier customer. (* Sorry if I am being self centered....)


However, this type of higher convexed edge CAN be applied to a CG coated blade. I assume Jerry has his reasons for not doing it. I assume it has to do with taking time to put a nice edge on the blades and/or costing more in sanding belts (???).


I have said before and I will say again: I have seen some improvements on edge quality on some of the recent knives. But, I still feel there has been room for improvement.
The "Competition Edge" does look nicer than any edge I have seen from Busse and would be about as good as I would hope for in edge profile - hopefully it is sharp as well.

There is one other relevant factor in regards to edge bevels, edge grind height and such - that is the thickness of the blade at the bottom of the primary grind.

If the blade at the bottom of the primary grind is significantly thick, you would have to grind the edge pretty high up into the primary grind to get a decent cutting edge bevel.

* I believe Jerry likes the blades to be thicker at the bottom of the primary grind because this make the edge tougher. - Toughness vs. sharp cutting - always a bit of a compromise.

If the blade at the bottom of the primary grind is thinner, you don't have to grind the edge as high up into the primary grind for a decent cutting edge bevel.

The "Convex" edge (can) give you a good compromise and balance of both good cutting and toughness.

The edge shown in this picture should be a very nice balance between cutting ability and toughness for a blade this size <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />:





In any event, buyers are probably going to have to choose between:

1) High prices of "LE" blades (overly high IMO)

or

2) "Competition Grade" - UGLY with good edge and ugly finish (frustratingly short of satin to me, but IF reasonably cheaper than Combat Grade - possibly a good option and balance of better edge and price for those who would strip the coatings anyway. - It just still leaves a lot of work for me that I beleive would be easy for a knife maker.

* For the record, Knives with Res-C are much easier to "Fix" than knives with exposed tangs - especially exposed pommels and if the micarta has anything other than a square edge at the ricasso. Many of the Busse knives have complex shaped micarta that is near impossible to get the blades decent looking around the micarta.

or

3) Finishing the Combat Grade knives ourselves (stripping, cleaning, sanding, re-profiling, sharpening, etc. - And still can't get the blades decent looking on many micarta handles!)

or

4) Having CG blades where you only fix the blade edge yourself

or

5) Having CG blades with edges that are less than ideal for quality cutting performance


Unfortunately, we don't know if the "Competition Grade" blades will be less or more than Combat Grade.

Further, we don't know if "Competition Grade" will be offered at all and if so if offered for Scrap Yard and/or Swamp Rat. Since I haven't seen a satin blade from Swamp Rat for a couple of years, I am not real optimistic, but (????).

I am under the impression, I am probably going to end up having to continue doing all the darn stripping, cleaning, sanding, reprofiling and sharpening of Combat Grade blades myself. Can't seem to find a win-win and many blades (especially Swamp Rat) just are not being offered in anything other than Combat Grade. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


.

Thanks Paul.

I try to be objective and give credit where it is due.

There ARE many great aspects to the Busse family of knives and I think those aspects deserve credit and should not be over-looked.

But, there are some things I think should be changed.

And on a more personal/opinionated level, there are just some things I personally hope for for my purposes - save money and not have to finish blades to a basic level of finish that I would prefer.

.

Thanks John.

I don't think the "Jack Hammer" "Competition Grade" knife was intended to be sold as just a "BLANK" blade - Jerry even mentioned: "Handles can be a bit rough as well" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> - And would very unlikely be anywhere near $150 let alone $100 in INFI and with a handle.


**** However, .... - This "BLANK" blade / "KIT" concept is potentially a very appealing idea to me..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />


*** "IF" *** it meant saving MUCH more money, I would be very interested in buying partially finished "BLANK" blades.

It would also be nice/interesting if they would also provide the partially finished scales and pins seperately as an option. Or I could make my own scales.

AND provide a re-usable kit with a die/punch or similar that could be put in a vice to flair the tube rivets (???). - And be able to buy rivets...
The proper die/punch rig and compatible rivets would be important to me.

With the proper kit, it seems very conceivable to me that installing the handles would be WAY easier than trying to "fix" or clean up blades around the handles.

I found a thread on Busse-Bladeforums: Related to Busse Handles, rivets, and similar

The thread is more about other changes related to handles by Randucci, but it shows the die/punches used to change the rivets.






Randucci used some titanium tubing he found at a hobby store for the replacement rivets. This might be fine, but is it strong enough? Are other metals stronger or better options for what reasons?


Also, the rivets used on Busse micarta handles appear to be the same type and size rivets as used on Res-C, so the same kit concept with detached Res-C type handles could also work. Of course, certain tangs are shaped for micarta (or G10 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> ) and certain tangs are shaped for Res-C.


Without the handles installed, it would be much easier to finish the blades.


** THIS concept (at the right price) would be more interesting to me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


DON'T coat my blades, ....
save me much more money, .......
provide some of the basics like a rivet die/punch kit and rivets,....
provide options for partially finished / preshaped micarta, G10 and Res-C options,.....

and fine, I will happily finish them myself.

It will be MUCH easier for me to finish the blades if the handles are not attached! And assuming there is a reasonable solution for me to attach the handles AND assuming the price is reasonable - then HECK yeah.

I would be very happy to get Busse grade steel, save some money and finish the blades and handles to my own personal preference.

I can even buff my micarta handles BEFORE attaching so they don't have fuzzies! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


I think the kit options might increase picture posting as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


.... Now let's talk prices!!!!

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Knifeguy, all I can guess is the labor costs here in the USA make finishing much more expensive than it used to be. Even my old Schrades had a mirror finish on them when they were new. Or maybe labor in Ohio is higher than it is in MN and NY. Maybe it's the "Satin Finishers Union". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

.... Yeah.... that must be it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hmmm, youre right, I just saw the pic and assumed due to the naked/raw looking blade, it wouldnt include a handle... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" />

As to selling unrefined blades with rough finish...isnt Busse the premium line ? Swamp-Rat being lower in price, and Scrap-Yard cheaper still ? So wouldnt a low priced rough knife from Busse overlap...? Seems that it would be literally perfect as a "Scrap-Yard" knife...Busse offering the high end that command premium prices, and the other two brands offering cheaper (NON-LE) users...?

While I'm not sure I could actually bring myself to pull the trigger on another 'Busse Combat' knife, the idea of the rough finish one does actually appeal to me.. The idea of having a ready made SHARP (DAMMIT!) 'user' at a lower than CG price DOES actually make sense, or I'm too tired for my brain to work properly! Nope, it really is a good idea!

I've just said a knife involving micarta is a good idea, I'm going for a lie down (it is 0100 here now!)...