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Re: Broke in my 'Hook [Re: Bors] #194193 12/11/07 10:23 PM
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Andys Leather House Offline OP
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oh ya.........wood works great too!!!
i like this knife

Re: Broke in my 'Hook [Re: Andys Leather House] #194194 12/11/07 11:24 PM
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KnifeGuy Offline
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Instead of re-typing and taking the time, there are some ridiculously long posts on the following thread about "why" steel will or won't do certain things.

And how to have better expectations for what it can or can't do.

Dogfather Ding


You have to keep in mind that with different types of steel there is always a balance of properties.


Hardness, toughness, wear resistance, corrosion, etc.

More often than not, something has to be sacrificed to achieve high results in one or sometimes two catagories.

Typically, high toughness = lower wear resistance & higher wear resistance = lower toughness.

If you add up scores in each column for totals, some steels are going to have higher total scores, but then there is the hardness factor.

Most steels will perform (behave) differently at different hardness levels. So, ideally, you have an idea what the "tool" is intended to do and harden accordingly.

Ideally, you want a steel blade fairly hard to help hold an edge. However, if the blade is too hard, it can be brittle and lead to chipping or breaking if impacted a certain way.
For most blades, it is better to have edge damage in the form of rolling vs. chipping and breaking. But, all this is just part of balancing act.

Also, if you have blades with high hardness and high wear resistance, you typically have a blade that is VERY hard to sharpen and typically very brittle. Tungsten Carbide typically has a hardness level WAY higher than any knife steel and it is MUCH higher in wear resistance than most knife steels, but it is brittle and will chip and break. It is not ideal for a knife that takes any type of heavy torque.

Hammers and similar impact tools are on the opposite end of the spectrum. They are hard enough to bang with, but not so hard as to chip or break. Nails are intentionally softer. Nails do vary quite a bit in hardness by the way.
Cement nails are quite hard.

Some steel are better all around than others. But, in the end, the goal is still to find which steel works best for it's intended typical "knife" use.

SR-77 is one of the toughest steels for "knife use".

It is not the most wear resistant, but at the proper hardness, it holds a respectable edge.
The compromise with "wear resistance" is generally directly related to effort associated with grinding (making) the knife and sharpening the knife.
SR-77 is reasonably easy to sharpen.


Conversely, you can add Vanadium or Tungsten to a steel to achieve higher wear resistance, but you "generally" sacrifice some toughness and you make the knife very hard to work with and sharpen.

-------

There have been multiple posts over the years about somebody damaging their knives because they beat on something with it they expected the knife to destroy.

Vitreous Porcelain commode most recently came back up over on Swamp Rat forum at Bladeforums. Ironically, the Swamp Rat made Crash Rat (axe) was made of SR-77.
However, Porcelain is VERY hard. A commode has a significant thickness of VERY hard material. Consider glass about 1" thick. It will break, but it is VERY hard - Harder than steel!
You can break a commode with a sledge - even though the sledge is not as hard. The difference in this case would be the Porcelain is brittle and will shatter if enough force and hardness hits it. Theoretically, the sledge would take a little dent in the process. But, the shape of a sledge and toughness allow it to generate a blow without breaking and the damage to the sledge would be minimal by comparison.

A sledge made of SR-77 would even be better as it would deform less than a typical sledge. But, a sledge out of sufficient yet cheaper steel can be bought for $20 - $25 and get the job done. Why pay $100 for a sledge to do the same job just because an SR77 sledge would deform slightly (relatively) less.

Now consider a knife. A knife has a VERY small AND relatively skinny weekly reinforced (because of the thin grind) contact spot when you hit something like a rock or porcelain commode. Since the contact spot is small, more force is generated to that very small spot. Makes the small spot easier to damage. Much more reinforcing steel around any given spot of a tool shaped like a sledge or anvil give it great strength to resist breaking and deformation - but sledges and anvils don't cut very well!

Since a knives edge is so small, thin, and weakly reinforced, the balance of toughness and wear resistance becomes much more significant in a knife than compared to a sledge.

.


JYD #39 I prefer "SATIN" blades!!!
Re: Broke in my 'Hook [Re: Andys Leather House] #194195 12/11/07 11:28 PM
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macgregor Offline
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I batoned with a piece of granite bolder on my hook, I was to lazy to look for a proper baton
you should never baton with a hammer though, unless your noss <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
btw are scrapyards variably tempered, because my hook took some pretty rough dents on the spine

Last edited by macgregor; 12/11/07 11:28 PM.

JYD#49
Re: Broke in my 'Hook [Re: KnifeGuy] #194196 12/11/07 11:35 PM
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eatingmuchface Offline
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well put knifeguy... if i HAD to for some reason baton with a hammer, i would want some wood in between the knife and hammer, it might absorb some of the impact though.


JYD number 52.
Re: Broke in my 'Hook [Re: Andys Leather House] #194197 12/11/07 11:38 PM
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KnifeGuy Offline
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Quote
oh ya.........wood works great too!!!
i like this knife

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


There is a reason hammers are not made of wood.

Wood can generate the force, but it doesn't hold up as well and isn't hard enough to drive steel nails without a slightly harder than nails steel head. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

However, if you were to put a 1" diameter "hardened" steel slug on the front end of a piece of wood that had comparable weight to a hammer, you could hammer nails with a board.

But, for batoning, wood is better for your knife. The force is mostly there - some force is lost to the softness of the wood. And your wood baton just takes a beating and won't last as long as a hammer.
But, your knife will "look" nicer and last longer.

Wood batons are generally disposable enough.

For the record, many types of rocks (igneous in particular) are harder than hammers. SR-77 can break "some" rocks, but know that the steel can and will likely deform at least some.

.


JYD #39 I prefer "SATIN" blades!!!
Re: Broke in my 'Hook [Re: macgregor] #194198 12/11/07 11:45 PM
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KnifeGuy Offline
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Quote
I batoned with a piece of granite bolder on my hook, I was to lazy to look for a proper baton
you should never baton with a hammer though, unless your noss <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
btw are scrapyards variably tempered, because my hook took some pretty rough dents on the spine


I am very confident that SR-77 is "through hardened" same hardness all the way through.

I just stated (prior to seeing your post), but I will state again: Granite is "usually" harder than steel. Granite is more brittle, so it can break (fractures) easier than steel, but since it is harder, it can and often will do some damage to softer steel.



--------

See my link above to: Dogfather Ding

See my post about 9 post down (maybe others if you are bored...)


From that link and post:

"In reference to knife steel vs. Rock, some understanding of Mohs Hardness scale might be helpful!!!

Hardness Mineral Absolute Hardness
1 - Talc - 1
2 - Gypsum - 2
3 - Calcite - 9
4 - Fluorite - 21
5 - Apatite - 48
6 - Orthoclase Feldspar - 72
7 - Quartz - 100
8 - Topaz - 200
9 - Corundum - 400 (Rubies and shaphire)
10 - Diamond - 1500


* Orthoclase Feldspar is a common mineral mixed with Quartz (and other elements) to create granite.
So, granite being one of the most common types of igneous rock, falls in around 6-8 on the Mohs' hardness scale depending on many factors.

** Quatz can actually reach 9 on the Mohs' scale.

But, granite, being one of the more common types of rocks is "harder" than most knife steels. Some rocks are harder. Some rocks are softer.



On the Mohs' Hardness scale:

pencil lead has a hardness of 1;
fingernail has hardness 2.5;
Gold, Silver & aluminum range from 2.5 to 3.0;
a copper penny is about 3.5;
a knife blade, 5.5 (depending on type of steel);
window glass, 5.5 to 6;
steel file, 6.5
Tungsten Carbide, between 8-9 (about 88 - 90 Rockwell Hardness!)"


JYD #39 I prefer "SATIN" blades!!!
Re: Broke in my 'Hook [Re: eatingmuchface] #194199 12/11/07 11:54 PM
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KnifeGuy Offline
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Quote
well put knifeguy... if i HAD to for some reason baton with a hammer, i would want some wood in between the knife and hammer, it might absorb some of the impact though.


In theory, a piece of wood between the knife and hammer would help reduce damage to the blade.

But, in reality, you might need a third hand to accomplish this or some duct tape! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Tip: Make sure you turn the wood grain perpendicular to the knife spine! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Home Renovation tip (for the heck of it - since it is similar to this point):

When prying basemolding, casing, crown moulding or similar off of a wall - or even just prying a nail out of the wall, use a shim of wood between the pry tool (hammer or prybar or other) and the wall to avoid prying the tool through the wall or similarly damaging the wall, texture or similar - especially sheetrock! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

.... again, keep the grain of the wood perpendicular to the force of the tool to "help" avoid splitting the wood.

If you have real soft texture, paint or wallpaper in a very visible place, put a towel or something similar under the wood shim against the wall to soften the force against the wall and help prevent the wood from maring the surface. A wood shim alone can still damage paint, texture and wallpaper.

The larger the shim piece of wood (and towel ?), the larger area you are distributing the force against the wall.

I must be bored..... I need to go find something to do...

.


JYD #39 I prefer "SATIN" blades!!!
Re: Broke in my 'Hook [Re: KnifeGuy] #194200 12/12/07 12:51 AM
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mhawg Offline
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In a survival situation using the sledge to baton would seem reasonable but if there is a sledge around, how far can you be from your truck??? Use the knife to fashion a proper baton and survive away. Use the sledge as it was intended, to mash your finger while setting the wedge!!!


If you're not pissed off you're not paying attention.
Re: Broke in my 'Hook [Re: mhawg] #194201 12/12/07 01:30 AM
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Andys Leather House Offline OP
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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Broke in my 'Hook [Re: Andys Leather House] #194202 12/12/07 02:46 AM
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VANCE Offline
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dang


i read it as "I BROKE MY HOOK"


i didnt believe it .


JYD #22
Always drink upstream from the herd.
-- Will Rogers
aka"LUCKY DOG"
Re: Broke in my 'Hook [Re: VANCE] #194203 12/12/07 04:40 AM
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SSCamaro99_3 Offline
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A guy broke his M6 beating it batoning it with a pipe wrench.


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