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Re: Anyone do a Yardgaurd/Hook Chopweiler Comparis [Re: KnifeGuy] #201639 02/01/08 01:52 PM
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K/G - I absolutely love your concept "ScrapWeiler"!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


Vic - great test of two great blades!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


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Re: Anyone do a Yardgaurd/Hook Chopweiler Comparis [Re: Private Klink] #201640 02/03/08 12:45 AM
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I would be curious if anyone knows the real reasons why "Most" (??????) Katanas do not have a swedge. I say most as I don't recall having seen a Katana with a swedge, but I wouldn't be surprised if some did (??????).


Knife Guy:

I’m no expert, but I’ll give it a shot.

If we had had internet forums thousands of years ago, thrust vs. cut arguments would have gone on as interminably as 45 caliber vs. 9 mm arguments do today. Then there would be the smart [censored] who wanted to design a sword that would be equally good at both. It will never happen, the handling characteristics of the two types of sword are incompatible. I do believe that the katana is as successful at combining cut and thrust as any other type of sword I know of. Even the small amount of martial arts training I’ve had included the occasional thrusts in the sword kata.

Obviously the katana is mostly designed for slashing. And specifically for the draw cut. I had a karate teacher years ago, who used to do the trick of putting an apple on the bare belly of one of his students, and then slice it in half—the apple, not the student. No matter what, you need excellent control to pull such a stunt. Sinsei explained that it was safer than it looked as long as he only chopped. The curve of the katana is specifically designed to maximize the result of the draw cut. Had he ever slipped and used a draw cut instead of a straight chop, there would have been guts on the floor.

I’m no expert, but I’ve never seen a katana or wakizashi with a swedge. I think the reason can be found in Japanese history. When Kublai Khan sent an invasion fleet to Japan, the samurai were shocked to find their weapons were ineffective against sturdy Mongol armor. Even worse, Mongol swords and arrows pierced Japanese armor just fine. If it had not been for the kamikaze “divine wind” that sank the Chinese fleet, Japan would have been conquered. Several things happened between that invasion and Kublai’s second attempt. Among them, defensible rock walls were built along every possible beachhead on the Japanese shore. And Japanese weapons and armor were improved. Both were made heavier, the better to pierce the invader’s armor while avoiding the converse. This was true of yari and naganata and war bows. It was true of samurai armor. It was true of swords. Katanas were made heavier, the better to slice or pierce Mongol armor. Many samurai used the larger dai-katana. Or the even larger swords called horse-killers. (Sorry, I can’t remember their Japanese name.) It worked, too. Kublai’s boys had a much harder time of it on their second try. They were still defeated in the end by a second kamikaze. (I do wonder about the Chinese navy. Didn’t the admiral know when typhoon season was?)

My point is, either for the cut or the thrust, the katana was designed to deal with armor. It was a battlefield weapon. Right through the establishment of the Tokugawa Shogunate a samurai could expect to fight against masses of men wearing tough armor. Japanese armor was lighter than European armor of about the same period, true. But it was still tough work to slice and dice a man wearing good armor. Beheading an opponent was expected. Showing the heads of the men he killed in a battle was how a samurai increased his prestige. Cut or thrust, that blade had to work. Piercing armor requires a strong fast thrust that will shock the blade, especially the point. With the extreme differential tempering of the katana, adding a swedge would have been disastrous. It would remove some of the tough flexible steel that was needed to absorb the shock and support the brittle edge. This was as true for the cut as for the thrust. In these circumstances it is better to have a strong tip than a tip that might be more efficient but is necessarily weaker.

It’s true that things were more peaceful through the Edo period. With the civil wars over, battles were rare. But the Japanese honored tradition. The “soul of the samurai” kept its battlefield tip until the Meiji restoration outlawed the wearing of the two swords.

Re: Anyone do a Yardgaurd/Hook Chopweiler Comparis [Re: Implume] #201641 02/03/08 03:53 AM
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Good reading Implume - well written.... Looks like you did some research. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> I enjoy reading certain aspects of history. I should research more. Now the trick is for me to remember ....

Your comments about the potential tip failure on a differentially heat treated Katana fairly well goes with my theory. Not to be confused with how Swamp Rat tips will hold up.... but, from what I know, I agree: Traditional Katana's with their hard and brittle edges would likely have been prone to failing if they had been thinned with a swedge.

However, I don't think there would likely be any reason to have concerns about tip failure on Swamp Rats. "Some" of the Battle Rats had swedges.

Oh, for the record, I'll take the .45 over 9mm in most cases. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And prefer .40 for smaller guns.

I am personally quite fond of my Para P-14 with double stack and 14 rounds of sweet thumpin' .45 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.


JYD #39 I prefer "SATIN" blades!!!
Re: Anyone do a Yardgaurd/Hook Chopweiler Comparis [Re: KnifeGuy] #201642 02/03/08 09:21 AM
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I don't think there would likely be any reason to have concerns about tip failure on Swamp Rats. "Some" of the Battle Rats had swedges.


The next time I'm scheduled to fight off a Mongol hord with the Battle Rat I don't own, I'll worry about that swedge.

Until then I'm not concerned about any Busse kin blade breaking.

Re: Anyone do a Yardgaurd/Hook Chopweiler Comparis [Re: Implume] #201643 02/03/08 01:39 PM
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I wouldn't worry about the Mongol's even with a differentially heat treated Battle Rat.
Busse's heat treatment on SR-101 is different and tougher than a differentially heat treated Katana.

Most Katanas would fail against hard blows to cinder blocks - especially centuries ago. Not a Swamp Rat. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


JYD #39 I prefer "SATIN" blades!!!
Re: Anyone do a Yardgaurd/Hook Chopweiler Comparis [Re: KnifeGuy] #201644 02/03/08 01:47 PM
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Quote

Oh, for the record, I'll take the .45 over 9mm in most cases. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And prefer .40 for smaller guns.

I am personally quite fond of my Para P-14 with double stack and 14 rounds of sweet thumpin' .45 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


well from what I've read, for smaller guns I'd prefer a .40 s&w too, maybe .357 sig, and I really like 10mm, but I think .45 would be more easily justified since its as mcuh as I will ever need.
the average self defense shooting takes place at 21 feet, so I think a 10mm would be overkill, and you don't need a high velocity round.
9mm, just plain sucks, no expanding on impact (unless your shottinf hollow points) small cavity wound and no takedown power.
why would someone want 9mm?
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


JYD number 52.
Re: Anyone do a Yardgaurd/Hook Chopweiler Comparis [Re: eatingmuchface] #201645 02/03/08 05:16 PM
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Most Katanas would fail against hard blows to cinder blocks - especially centuries ago. Not a Swamp Rat.


The Japanese were building with cinder blocks centuries ago? I had no idea. Was that one of the technologies introduced by space aliens?

Or wait! Maybe the Mongols invaded Japan in order to sell the shogun cinder blocks. It was all a plot to break those nasty katanas. Yes, that makes more sense.

Knife Guy, you're a wealth of information.

Re: Anyone do a Yardgaurd/Hook Chopweiler Comparis [Re: Implume] #201646 02/07/08 01:19 AM
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BUMP!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Can't let this thread fade away. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


JYD #39 I prefer "SATIN" blades!!!
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