Yes sir, I needed to quit running the tips across the the belt and pull the butt away more as Brian shows in his "sharpening tips" video.

Alright, I'm attempting to make my first strop bat. I was thinking three leather sides and one mousepad/sandpaper side. This may be a dumb question, but do I put the leather on rough side out or smooth side out?

Either way will/would work. Decisions decisions.

Any differences?

I wasn't sure about which side out myself at first, but after asking around and researching, the most common side out by a LARGE margin is the smooth side.

My initial thinking was that the rough side would hold the compounds better. But, the more I thought about it, the more it makes sense to have the smooth side out.

The Smooth side holds the compounds just fine. In most cases with most compounds, you can just color on the compounds like with a crayon.

However, some of the compounds have a harder wax base. Some people will heat up the smooth side of the leather with a hair dryer which helps open the leather poors and melt the compounds into the leather at the same time.

If you feel the smooth side is just to hard or something, you can "lightly" sand the smooth side to soften it a bit. But, I would use a fine grit like 320 or so... actually, "I" wouldn't sand the smooth side, but I have read where some people have (????)

In the end the smoother side of the leather give a more uniform strop. Ideally, you want a smooth flat surface and let the compounds do the work. Although, believe it or not, the leather itself can polish some types of steel to some degree.

All of the old leather razor strops are VERY smooth.

Another tip I have come across and some may have heard about stropping on card-board. With some steels, I have had great luck stropping on coarse cardboard and similar coarse paper. I prefer the coarse paper on a flat surface. I don't like the bumpy corrugations on cardboard.

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Wow, a lot to chew on over what would seem to be such a small detail. How about these compounds? Will they work as an intermediate and finish between the last sandpaper and the plain leather strop?

Well.... I guess when we are trying to describe all of the "details" involved in sharpening a knife in "Words" it is very similar to having to describe to someone how to ride a bike in words. It would be MANY times faster to show and help someone in person. But, in words, there are just so many little details to break down and point out.

Things like technique, hazards to be careful to avoid, equipment, differences in road conditions and types of bikes vs. types and shapes of steel, types of belts and abrasives, etc. etc.

No doubt this thread could be WAY longer if myself or others were to go into all kinds of various details about how to hold small knives vs. large knives, curved blades vs. flat edges, pressure, movement, etc. etc. - It is easier to just tell someone to practice with a bunch of "Cheap" blades. In the end, just like on a bike, you will HAVE to practice a bit to get the hang of it.

Watching Brian's videos and some of the other videos posted is going to give you more bang for the time for learning than reading my long wordy posts.

But, be carefull with some of the videos on YouTube. Some of them are good and some not so good.

The bottom line on sharpening (and many other things for that matter) is: there are many different ways to get something done - like getting a good sharp edge on a blade.

In the end, sharpening is just simply using different types of grit to grind away steel to form an edge.... and then polish the edge with finer grits to get a sharp edge. - which can be done many different ways.

I tend to find that many people who have come up with "some" technique to create a sharp edge a few times or more tend to think they have mastered the mystery. And they often preach their way since it works for them. Some people swear by sharpening jigs, some by water stones, some by automated systems like Tormek, Arkansas stones, strops, etc. etc. ... which can all work.

Even within the knife-Making community, techniques will differ..... as will preferences in end result: toothy vs. fine or flat V grind vs. convex edge.... etc.

But, I tend to see a majority (?????) of the knife-makers using belt sander/grinders.

I know Mike Stewart at Bark River uses belt sander/grinders and strops and he provides some of the sharpest from the factory "semi-custom" knives. I personally LOVE the full convex edges. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />
I don't know how Sal at Spyderco sharpens at the factory, but Spyderco probably ranks number one on my list for factory "edge" sharpness followed by Kershaw probably in 2nd and then Bark River and Benchmade sort of battle for 3rd and 4th as I recieve some VERY impressive edges from both, but Spyderco and Kershaw just seem to provide more consistantly sharp factory edges.
However, for all-around cutting, I still like the full-convex edges like on Bark River and Fallkniven.

A disclaimer for edges from Spyderco and probably certain other "factory" brands would be edges seem to vary depending on where made. Spyderco makes many of their knives at their own factory in Golden, CO. But, they have MANY of their knives made by other factories around the world such as Japan, Taiwan, China, Italy, etc. ????
From what I have seen, I would rank Golden, CO the best and closely followed by Japan. Taiwan and China have been impressive considering the value.
Side note: To my knowledge, ANY and ALL knives made with VG10 are made in Japan - whether from Spyderco, Fallkniven or other. I think (if I understood something I read somewhere correctly) Japan considers VG10 some sort of National product or something.

I know I am on a tangent here - sorry.




First: In regards to compounds:

I am not familiar with either of those two "brands" of compounds.

I can't be sure about the Ryobi brand. From your picture, it appears to say "Emery". From a quick search (assuming the search info is accurate), a site I found said the Emery level of Ryobi compound is about 1-3 microns which is pretty "fine".

From one of my earlier posts on this thread:

Some common compounds (worthy for knife use) are black, green, white and pink.

There doesn't seem to be a clear consensus on what grits they are. But, to me (and I am generally guessing here!!!):

Black seems to be around 400-600 grit (???)
Green seems to be around 800-1000 (???)
White seems to be around 1200-2000 (????)
Pink seems to be around 2500 +/- (????)

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Tolly followed my post with some info on grits:

180 grit = 80 micron
230 grit = 60 micron
280 grit = 45 micron
320 grit = 40 micron
360 grit = 35 micron
400 grit = 30 micron
500 grit = 20 micron
600 grit = 15 micron
900 grit = 12 micron
1200 grit = 9 micron
1500 grit = 5 micron


NOTE: There are slight variations in grit/micron conversions amoung different manufacturers of abrasive products. The properties I listed above will be very close for the most common seen in the US.

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For the record, I tried to research grit vs. micron comparisons after Tolly's post and came up with a bunch of different results. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" />


Is your Ryobi compound White?

If so, 1-3 micron sounds about right (???????) - or maybe even 2-5 micron or so (????).

I have some white compound that is much finer than my green compound. I use the white for final buffing to polish a razor edge.

Personally, I use black for fairly coarse finishing. Green will actually put a pretty good edge on a knife and white will slowly put a mirror shine on steel.

Black and green cut steel pretty well.... at least the black and green I use. I bought my black and green from DLT Trading Co. My black actually cuts pretty aggressively.

My white compound doesn't cut steel nearly as well and takes some time, but it is fine and will polish steel to a nice razors edge.

I bought my white compound from Home Depot years ago for other uses and still had some, so I use it. I don't know if it is as good as other white compounds or not. (????) But, the compounds will last a LONG time - especially on a manual strop. A decent size bar like that green bar will last MANY years if just for knife sharpening.

I actually only use my white compound on my belt sander. My leather strop is only two sided and I chose green and black as I find those colors work well manually.

Using white or very fine grits manually will take noticably longer and be much slower to see results.

Still, some day, I will probably make a second strop for VERY fine diamond paste. I have seen some down to .25 micron and even .10 micron. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> - Plus, diamonds make better abrasive media than any other media. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Knife sharpness is an addiction. For most people, green compound is ALL that is needed for more than impressive sharpness that can push cut through paper and EASILY shave hairs.

White can polish fine enough to push cut through fine magazine pages and "POP" hairs off - smoothly. And I can use white on my belt sander for fast hair popping results.

To get to a phrase that I have heard a few times about sharpness: "Parlor tricks", like tree topping hairs and splitting hairs, you probably have to go just a little finer grit than white. Pink should probably do the trick, but I haven't tried pink yet. The finer grits require more and more time and patience for results.

I think it is fair to note that not all compounds are equal - some are apparently (???????) better quality than others. And in some cases the grit/micron ratings for different colors can/do vary from maker. The color is not a perfect system for rating grit/micron. But, the industry has some "general" guidelines. I "guess" it just depends on whether the makers follow the guidelines (??????)...... and how good a makers quality control is.

I have read some people say some green compounds are not as good and some are VERY good in quality (?????). DLT's green works very well for me.

*** Most important in regards to color (I believe) is that many of the color codings on the different compounds ("appear" to me to be) they have been brought into the market geared towards different industries and different uses or types of metals to polish. Most were initially for polishing precious metals like gold, silver, brass, etc. which are all much softer than "hardened" knife steels. Reddish Brown Jeweler's Rouge is very popular for buffing gold. But, it doesn't "cut" sufficiently to be worthy on knife steel.


I see that you have "green" compound in a package that appears to be from Sears.

Luckily, green and white both (generally) seem to work well on hardened knife steels. I suppose it depends on who actually made the compound and how well made they are (???)

It is worth noting that Sears, Home Depot, etc. sell "Buffing compounds" of various colors geared towards "generic" multi-purpose uses. I have read compound packaging that doesnt' mention grit/micron ratings. They just say something like:

"Good for high luster on fine metals"

or

"Good for final polish on aluminum, plastic and soft metals"

I am making the above up based on other packages I have read.

My point is:

The compounds you have "May" work VERY well. The Green may be as good as other green compounds being sold by knife retailers on the interent... or it might not be as good .... and still work well enough. (?????)
You will just have to try them and see.

***** However, one common rule of thumb: Is to NOT mix compounds on the same strops.
Mixing compounds is not the end of the world, but could cause inconsistant results - especially if you have residue of coarse compound grits on a strop when trying to go to a finer compound.

I wouldn't be too concerned about adding a compound that you believe is reasonably comparable in grit to existing compound on a strop. - I hope that makes sense (????).


Buying compounds at Home Depot or Sears is probably cheaper.

But, I would tend to lean towards certain knife suppliers providing products that are "known" to provide good results.

Black seems to be around 400-600 grit (???)
Green seems to be around 800-1000 (???)
White seems to be around 1200-2000 (????)
Pink seems to be around 2500 +/- (????)



-------------------------




In regards to sandpaper and leather strop:

Sandpaper can go up to 2500 grit. Most hardware stores only carry up to about 400 grit or so as most hardware stores like Home Depot, Lowes, Sears, Ace, etc. are geared towards wood-working/wood-finishing and similar type projects.

To get grits above 400, you generally have to buy online or go to an automotive store like Auto-Zone, Pep Boys, etc. where I commonly find up to 2500 grit.

Depending on which sandpaper you use, you should gear your compound choices to compliment your sandpaper.

Black compound seems easily more coarse to me than 2500 grit sandpaper. So, from my experience, it would be going backwards to go from 2500 grit sandpaper to black compound.

Personally, I have better results with black compound on a leather strop than when using 2000 - 2500 grit sandpaper.

**** Plus!!!! - The fine grit sandpapers are EXPENSIVE and don't last long. So, compounds are a MUCH better value and bang for the buck - IMO.

If using sandpaper, you can generally get much better value on sandpaper at Home Depot and similar with 220, 320, 400 (maybe 600 sometimes ???) grit papers. The grits above 400 to 600 start having law of diminishing returns IMO.


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In regards to stropping on bare leather: The results when using bare leather can vary a LOT depending on the type of steel and type of leather.

Some leathers are inherently more abrasive (?????) - I don't know why. And knife steels vary in hardness and carbide levels.

I have had good results stropping simple carbon steel on bare leather and softer simple stainless steels like AUS6, 440A, 420.

The harder the steel and higher the carbide levels, the harder to sharpen and less noticeable simple bare leather and cardboard/paper stropping is.

I have tried stropping ZDP-189 and S90V on bare leather and paper with NO noticable results. Spyderco hardens these steels in the 63-67 HC range which is VERY hard for knife steel.

There is a reason that the most common knife steels found in common knife stores use more simple steels hardened in the mid to upper 50's HC range - most people can sharpen them. They are tough enough and can get sharp enough for "most" people.

Also, blades hardened to over 60 HC start to become more brittle. Some of the high end exotic steels with high hardness are amazing to cut with, but they are not as tough for certain tasks. I won't ever be using my Spyderco ZDP-189 for prying or unscrewing screws - as I often see many people I know using their folder blade tips for ( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />) To me, these high end exotic steels require a certain level of..... "understanding". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> - They are not really for everyone.

When you start getting to about 60+ HC, you have to KNOW how to sharpen.

For the record, SR-77, SR-101 and INFI will all strop well.

154CM is noticably harder to sharpen than other Busse steels. Some people will have problems getting a "great" edge on 154CM. But, once you get a good sharp edge on Busse's 154CM, you will be impressed with it cutting/slicing abilities. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />






..........Mmmmmm - sorry for throwing out a LOT more to "Chew On". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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LOL Awesome information there! The Ryobi compound is actually black, but it says 1-3 microns on the side, as well as "for use when coarse buffing, removing rust, scratches, burrs, and pitts from hard metals." That would seem a little contradictory given its grit, but that's what I chose when I bought my piece of wood. Later I found myself at sears, so I picked up the green which is what I was looking for in the first place. White and pink seem like more than I want to get into. Black and green are the levels I was going for. The green rouge doesn't have any grit description on the packaging. It says it is for color buffing and light cleaning on all classes of metals. Maybe my colors/grits are backwards. I'd really rather pick these up locally. I can tell you that the craftsman compounds are about half as expensive as the Ryobi. I guess I could try Lowes and see what they have as well. Here's a link to Ryobi's compounds.

http://www.ryobitools.com/catalog/accessories/buffer_accessories?page=1

Here's what I've got so far.

Last week I had my friend pick up a piece of pine 2x2 to use as my base. It was pretty damned crooked. So this week I got a piece of poplar. It was only a dollar or so more for a 2ft length.



So I cut it in half with the only saw I have here. I could have left it long enough to make a handle, but this is kind of an experiment, so I probably won't even stain it.




First Blood II was a great accompaniment.



Here's my awesome clamping system to hold the strops in place as the glue dries. I hope the rubber cement will hold. If not, I can always redo it.

Well to me, that description of the Ryobi compound is VERY different from any compound rated at 1-3 microns.

Any compound described for use "when coarse buffing, removing rust, scratches, burrs and pits from hard metals" would likely (in my thinking) be in the 15 - 30 micron or 400 - 600 grit range (????????).

Anything that would be used to remove rust and pits from hard metals would need to be way more coarse than 1-3 microns.

Anything rated at 1-3 microns would generally be described as used for HIGH luster polishing or similar - not rust and pit removal.

However, from what you have described and what you seem to want to accomplish, I would recommend "black" and green compounds as the two most beneficial to use on a manual strop - assuming black is about 15-30 microns (400 - 600 grit range or so).

1-3 microns is for fine mirror polishing on edges - considering that about 5-10 microns starts to visibly mirror polish more than visibly scratch.

-------------------

I might suggest - rather than loading your new strop immediately with your new compounds to first try both compounds out loaded on some paper prior to loading your strop.

Just use some (preferrably) thick construction type paper or similar heavy weight paper - regular printer paper if you have to - But, if you look around, you should be able to find some envelope paper or something heavier than printer paper pretty easily. You can tape it around your other block and rub the compound on it. The compounds will still work on paper on a flat surface - similar to sandpaper. Paper on a hard block won't give as much as sandpaper on a mousepad or leather, but it should be sufficient for testing the function of the compounds. The paper won't last nearly as long as the leather, but should be sufficient for testing the compound.

Try out each compound on a cheap knife on the paper to make sure you are happy with how each compound works.

One of the great things about most of the lighter colored compounds including the green is that you can actually see it turn black as an indication of metal removal.

It is hard to see this "streak" process with black compound. Which is one reason I am prone to believe it is more in the 15-30 grit coarse range. If your black compound is a more coarse black compound like most black compounds, you can see the results on the knife's blade easy enough after a few passes - without needing to see black streaks on your strop. If the black compound were 1-3 microns, you could be working on a blade for a long time and never know if you were even doing anything. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

If you purchased the Ryobi compound at Home Depot (carries Ryobi), and you find it is not the grit you had hoped for, Home Depot is GREAT about taking back items if not satisfied. I would explain the "contradiction" in the labeling.

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Okay, I'll give it a try. The only real convex edge I have is my BRKT, which I'm not going to practice in. I was going to try convexing a Rough Rider drop point I have. Maybe I'll just use that one to test these out. I need to get some more cheap blades to practice with.

Great info KG.