Looks like major damage to me Vic, off to Eric! Great mini review, my sympathy on the bust tip..

this *shouldn't* have happened to a busse knife, regardless of the steel.

Yes, I have done this with the SS4 and Meaner Street with no problems. I even traded the Meaner off and it still looked new. I think the 154CM steel is great for cutting and even batonning, but it ain't INFI or SR77. This is some tough oak, though. No worries. Eric said he will replace it. That's why boneheads like me need Busse made knives. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Eric said to send it in with an explanation of how I broke it, so that's what I am going to do. I'm not an engineer, but I have a feeling that I just put too much force on too small an area. Considering the leverage factor, I probably put over 2000 lbs of force on that last 1/2" of blade, where the blade is thinnest. The edge is still perfect after vigorous batonning. And I don't hit steel blades with steel hammers. Too much shock.

Vic,

Thanks for the post and GREAT review. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I am sorry your new HCLE broke. I am confident Eric will replace it. I wouldn't worry about that.



Had there been existing examples of Busse 154CM taking reasonable and worthy use without fail, it would be much easier to write your case off as a "fluke" with a rare faulty blade.

I might still try to contend that your blade was a fluke, as I have seen "thinner" blades of 154CM handle MUCH more stress than you put on your HCLE.

But, I expected Jerry to have found a way to maintain a reasonable amount of toughness and decent edge qualities.

Truthfully, (and I think I mentioned before), 154CM isn't my first choice. But, I honestly expected it to be good enough. I honestly expected Busse to "possibly" make 154CM perform at or on par to some of the steels that I (in my mind) would consider a little better (normally).


Here is a common "excerpt" quote about different knife steel properties. This is all over the internet:

---------

440C: Has moderate wear resistance, low toughness and low edge stability. Brittle when heat treated harder than 58-59 Rc.

ATS-34/154CM: The same steel, one made by Crucible, one made by Hitachi. Has moderate to high wear resistance, moderately low toughness, and low edge stability. Can be heat treated fairly hard, but because of toughness issues generally not taken harder than 61-62 Rc.

CPM-154: A PM version of 154CM, so it has somewhat greater edge stability, toughness, potential hardness, and corrosion resistance.

BG-42: A super-clean variation of 154CM for the aerospace industry, with a little more carbon and 1.25% vanadium added for greater wear resistance and even lower toughness and edge stability.

420/440A: Fairly different steels, but similar properties, both have a low potential hardness, but high edge stability, toughness, and corrosion resistance.

420HC/12C27M: Between 420 and 13C26, capable of 58-60 Rc, with high edge stability and toughness.

12C27: Between 12C27M and 13C26, sacrifices some hardness and wear resistance from 13C26 for greater toughness and corrosion resistance.

19C27/VG-1: Wear resistance close to 440C but with greater edge stability and toughness than 440C and 154 CM. Corrosion resistances is fairly low compared to other stainless steels. Has “good” edge stability. Capable of 65 Rc, probably shouldn’t be heat treated higher than 62-63 Rc.

VG-10: Wear resistance higher than VG-1 but not as good as 154CM, with toughness and edge stability greater than 154CM but not as good as VG-1, so it has good to moderately low edge stability. Has greater corrosion resistance than VG-1. Usually not heat treated higher than 60-62 Rc.

S30V: A PM grade that has very high wear resistance, higher than any of the previous grades listed, with greater edge stability than 154CM, but probably lower than VG-10. Good toughness, and can be used up to 62 Rc. Also has very good corrosion resistance. Has high enough wear resistance that it can be difficult to sharpen using waterstones, due in part to the vanadium carbide. Difficult to finish for a knifemaker.

----------------

I have used quite a few 154CM blades without failure. Some I have done similar "LIGHT" tip prying. But, what Vic did appears "Light" to me. It should have handled that "Light" tip prying.

If Bark River can make a Very Little, light-weight and THIN at .0125" thick "Light Hunter" with a skeletonized handle take this:

-------------------------------------

Quotes from Mike:

"As most of you know--The New Lite Hunter has been designed for Field work While Hunting Medium Game.

I used 12C27 for this one for a couple of reasons.

Obviously--A bit of Stain Resistance never Hurts.

We all also know that the 12C27 holds and edge remarkably well for a steel with less than 1% carbon.

12C27 also Sharpens up very quickly and easily in the Field if necessarey.

I just wanted to assure folks how strong this little knife is.

Here we have locked a regular Production "Lite Hunter" in a Vise.



That is Reid' Big Hand.

Here Reid Starts to Flex the Blade in the Vise.



Then he Added his other hand.



Now His Body Weight. (* Reid is pretty good sized!)



Now he let's Go.




The Blade took about a 1 degree set.

Remember that this Blade is 58 Rockwell.

There are no Cracks in the Spine or Edge and the knife is Perfectly usable--bottom Line--No damage at all.

You would have to put the Knife on a Flat Table to see the Deflection.

I hope this helps show why we use this Steel and How well Built the Lite Hunter is.

Mike..................."

--------------------------------------


See: New Bushcraft Knife - pg. 2


*** I am not trying to throw out comparisons with other companies so much as show an example of what I have seen other comparable stainless steels (actually much thinnner) able to do.

I would think a HCLE in 154CM at .170" thick (26.5% thicker!) should handle some prying in most wood.

[color:"blue"]*** But, I think in all fairness it depends on the wood and how much torque was put on the blade and tip. [/color] <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

In all fairness, given a certain type of very tough wood, a knot, or similar, many different knives and steel types could run into a tip strength issues and possibly fail.

[color:"blue"]*** My question to Vic is, do you feel you pushed the tip too hard or harder than you "feel" you should? Or do you feel the wood was of reasonable hardness and the tip should have handled the task? [/color]

.... I saw where you mentioned here (while I was typing this) and posted over on Swamp Rat and you seem to feel you pushed the knife too hard. From the pics, my "assumption" is that the tip should NOT have failed. But, I will concede what I mentioned above and some wood can be VERY tough and break worthy knife tips if the wood is tough enough and enough force torqued onto the blade.

Your test and pics are the first significant use of any of the Busse 154CM blades. I will exclude the opening of a box of beers by Vance as that is just cutting thick paper. Because of this, your tests and reviews are likely going to need a LOT of other tests to amend the current reputation of Busse's 154CM. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

We'll see what happens.


.

I don't think there is a thing "wrong" with the knife in 154CM. It's a great knife in a very good stainless. But it doesn't seem to be as tough as some knives I've tested in SR101, SR77, 12C27, or INFI. I must say in all honesty that this was one tough piece of oak. Whether this a a fluke or typical, I cannot say. I just use them and get what I get. Sure takes and holds a great edge, and that's what a knife is for. I would not recommend doing my point test on the 154CM knives. As you know, I don't ever deliberately break knives, but sometimes it happens.

Fair enough for now.


I am just trying to settle myself and come to terms here.

.

Thanks for the great test HD! this is exactly what I'm looking for. I can feel your pain though, I did the exact same thing with my Fixed Benchmade Griptilian, also in 154CM. That was what turned me away from the steel in the first place. I wasn't planning to use the HC as a pry-bar if I got it, but this is still worrisome...

hammering a knife tip first into oak then prying (vic said he pried pretty hard) "light" use.

but aside from that, idk..
it seems tips on knives are always the weakest point, and just because one breaks doesn't say much about the steel...
IMO.
it looks like a pretty clean break.
I have seen where a ranger rd9 broke, and you could tell there were chunks taken out of it (it was stuck in a tree and pried on lightly to try to fix a bend in it. though it was a pass around so it saw alot of use before that, but still) not a clean break like that.(and raners are pretty tough)
if tips are think, they will break no matter how good the steel is.
thats just the way I see it, but idk if it makes sense to some of you.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
sorry to here about that vic, thanks for the test though!