Who knows what to believe nowadays. Some seem to think the recent small gains in the market are signs of recovery, while others are predicting a long recession or even a depression worse than the 1930s. I just wondered what my fellow dogs are thinking.

Depression? single choice
	We are going into a depression.
	No depression.
Votes accepted starting: 03/15/09 05:37 PM You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

Definitely a depression! After all, I had to pass on the HG-55! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

That's even more depressing than cancelling the M9LE and missing the KZ! But these are small things compared to the big picture. What bothers me is the higher and higher food prices I see and yet the official inflation index is low. Do you think they forgot food and energy? So if people have to spend more of their income on necessities, won't that take away from other buying?

Don't worry - Prezbo will take care of you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> Did you see how poorly he treated the British P.M. when he was here? Nothing like insulting the leader of our strongest ally nation!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

I think we are already in a depression. The big question is how long will it last? It seems like for the last year every estimate pushes it out for ~12 months before it will end. Kind of like the fabled 2 weeks.

I actually think we have already entered a depression and we are still on the down side of the curve. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" />

We are in a recession for sure, but it hasn't reached the levels of the Great Depression yet. Maybe it won't. I just don't believe any of the "experts" anymore. They missed seeing this recession coming.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Two weeks! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />Not that!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

They didn't miss it they just wanted to promote a positive image buy denying it. LOL

And I thought I was too pessimistic. Where are the optimists among us? So far, we don't a single vote for "no depression".

Oh wait, we have ONE who doesn't see a depression coming. Good!

I vote no. The stories my father told me about his experiences during The Great Depression lead me me to believe we are not there, yet.

No we are definitely not there yet, but the question is are we going into one?

Another scary thing is the fact that so many of the younger folks don't even know about the "great depression" and the ramifications included! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Well, chow is heading for the table, so I'll catch ya'll later! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Inflation is way higher than people realize. Way! But don't listen to me, I'm a "closed minded conservative".

But in the great depression there was a scarcity of money. Now money is everywhere, but its value seems to be decreasing. Like back in the Carter days when we had "stagflation", high unemployment and inflation at the same time.

True but it was not global, countries were not going bankrupt and states were not facing it.

Well Germany was certainly in a depression and had hyperinflation until you know who came along.

Oh oh, David Hasselhoff?

Exactly. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I knew it...him or Hitler.

Ha, Hitler was never on Baywatch!

We are'nt heading for a depression by any means...what has happened aside from the normal issues is that some banks cocked up big style as did your state governments who were underwriting new home builds to promote construction....building "new starter" 3 bed detached with swimming pools was crazy...lending 100% mortgages was asking for trouble...now the government has stepped in and bailed out the banks...but all the banks are doing now is working out who to lay off and re-hiring as consultants the disgraced chairmen who put us in this mess...they are'nt spreading the bail out around and lending again for commercial ventures...they are far too risk averse...but soon I expect some of the players in the bank game will change things and decide to get back to making money....roll on the day as far as I am concerned...and other than this recent failure our respective economies are no different to what they were 5 years ago...so I cannot see why a depression would come around for economic reasons.

But allowing for the media talking us into one and people no longer having faith in spending as per usual...well...that is a different issue...we might have problems which are more a matter of "psyche" than "economics"...

Issues like your motor industry...well that has been in decline and under funded for decades... they just spotted an oppertune time to demand "goodies" from your government when they saw the sweet deals the banks were getting....

Our country is very similar with the banks situation...and hopefully things can get better...unlike the depression which was radically affected by a genuine economic post WWI slump...what we have now is just a headless chicken banking Industry...the top shots who got it wrong have'nt been replaced by any seemingly "wiser" heads...maybe they should bring back some of the old hands from retirement...guys who had a pair...and knew how to make sensible decisions...

headless chicken banking industry!!! very good description!!!

Now that is one "spooky" but "funny" photo!!LOL..

CP is the chicken man and newest JYD. I bet he has a chicken pic for every occasion! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

We're already in a "small-d" depression, although most politicos won't admit it, the question is "how deep will it be". I don't think we'll ever see another 1929 Great Depression because of regulatory safeguards, even as weak as they've become. The reason that this depression has come about is that newer pieces of the financial markets were basically unregulated, and the Fed's regulatory enforcement of the rest was intentionally lax going back through the Regan administration. I'm not saying it's a Republican thing; Democrats were every bit as much to blame and it's a problem with more than just Wall street & banking.

I think it has more to do with campaign finance and lobbying laws -- politicians owe too much to the people they're supposed to oversee, and high-level bureaucrats who the public depends on to enforce regulations know that if they "play nice" they'll be taken care of by their industry when they transition into the private sector. I recall "60-minutes" and "Frontline" episodes which highlight when somebody tries to enforce regulations, calls are made and they get shutdown -- money talks.

I don't know what the balance is, because I recognize that in order to be profitable, industries shouldn't be unreasonably burdened by regulations. However, I also recognize that most companies have no conscience on their balance sheet; incentives are set so that short-term gains outweigh long-term viability. The only incentive to worry about long term is legal liability, and they've been fairly successful lobbying for tort reform, so that they needn't worry about that as much as they used to. I think that there should be personal liability for wrongdoing assigned to the Chief Officers, Presidents, VPs, and Boards of Directors -- if their company acted irresponsibly, then they should be stripped of their personal fortunes to help pay for the damages. I'm getting a bit off track, and before I digress into proposing public burnings at the stake, I need to calm down...

Anyway, as I said, we are in a depression; Federal spending should help pull us out, but I expect to see increasing inflation, increasing interest rates, decreases in home values will probably be long term, and I can't even predict what the long-term effects of our ballooning Federal debt will be. States are in an even worse position because many of their constitutions will not allow them to have a debt, which limits their ability to provide services to help with increased unemployment (which decreases their tax revenues while increasing their spending). A recovery won't mean a return to the "hot economy" that we had for over a decade before this house of cards fell apart, and there will be more Federal regulations, if not an actual nationalization of at least some parts of the banking system. If we're really lucky, we'll also end up with a Federal government that's more interested in protecting the interests of citizens rather than of their campaign contributors.

I voted that we ARE in a depression. Now the depression we are in, will be in, is not like the Great Depression. There are too many differences between then and now. However, how bad the current one will be is not only dependent on us, the U.S., but also the rest of the world. The sad fact is we are dependent on other nations and how they react to the current situation--just look at China throwing their displeasure comments around. Hell, Europe is not too keen on doing much about it either. I guess the majority of the other countries forget who rebuilt them after that little tiff we call WWII. I hope, and pray everyday, that we can pull out of this situation.

i had to think some and i can't definitively answer this but after a little thought i said no. this mess is all wall street, and though the effects of wall street can be felt far and wide, the truth is that companies that are dependent on their stock price, the pro cyclical entities, are doing the most suffering.

well they should, it's their fault. non-cyclical, publicly held businesses and private businesses (even investment firms) are doing quite well in terms of earnings ratios. they don't have to worry about investor confidence to build equity. of publicly held companies, those with attractive debt to equity ratios are also looking good long term and generally healthy in the earnings department. their stock prices are suffering, but that's not critical to them as a going concern.

as for the question in the original post, take the first and second derivatives of the three month moving average of the various domestic stock indices to see if we've heat the trough or headed for a waterfall.

now that i've denied the bleak future, i'm gonna run to amazon and order all those SHTF books.

i voted no if anyone cares.

some of our clients are feeling the heat. but most arent even phased. we've actually had more work coming in so....i dunno.

Well I sure as heck don't know. I voted yes, but this is one time I'd love to be wrong.

every now and then there's a cleansing catastrophe that levels out and the world.

the past couple days i've been thinkin that my generation's is coming.

I voted no. A recession yes, depression no. I'm thinking we will start to see some changes for the better by September.

People are living in fear right now, you can see it on their faces and in their eyes. They are afraid to do anything, good, bad, or otherwise. Most of them need to quit watching the news, turn off the radio, put their boots back on and go take on the day!

Well said!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

There are some fear mongers in the news, that's for sure. There is a lot of uncertainty, and this is just my opinion, but some of the new President's actions have probably caused more uncertainty among investors and businessmen.

as of right now, a majority of those who voted say "no depression". That's interesting.

I've still got a job, but 8 of the people in my department (or about 30%) were laid off last Monday. We still hadn't recovered from last year's layoffs (there are a couple open positions in the department, but there's also been a hiring freeze), so that probably affects how I feel current economic conditions. There are around half as many people in IT as when I started there in 2002. Our RIFs were early, but the rest of the organization will probably go through the process within a couple weeks -- as you can imagine, the mood is very insecure.

It seems like inflation indexes are being held down by falling prices in the big-ticket items that people can put off buying until they feel more secure, but the day-to-day necessities, like groceries seem to still be up despite decreases in fuel prices.

I am not sure what we are in. I graduated from college in 1981 and we had 8/9% unemployeement. Paul Harvey came over the radio to remind us that it was not all gloom and doom like most reporters were making it out to be. He re-stated their news as "we had 92% of Americans working"...a good point to think about. I did know that it differed from area to area back then as it does today.

I hope that it gets better for those directly affected very soon.

Dan

Personally, being a bit of a market pessimist, I think we have more problems ahead. Have GM and Chrysler formulated a working business model yet?

My big worry, though, is our treasury market. We've borrowed an awful lot of money from other countries who are going to want to be paid off eventually, and I honestly don't see how we're going to do that without seriously devaluing the dollar. Just wait until nobody wants our bonds anymore...

That's what I am afraid of.

We're in trouble,and sooner than people think. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I don't know how repesentative the yard is of the general public, but we come from different regions, professions, and ecomomic levels. It seems that we are about evenly divided on the question of whether or not we are entering a depression.

I think too a lot of us a recession is when your neighbor loses his job but a depression is when you lose yours. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The question remains if we are headed there. Like many have mentioned most people are afraid to do anything. Everyone is hoping that someone will come up with a solution and then we can all go back to our old routine. The fact of the matter is we will not be going back anytime soon. The energy concerns will bring about many changes in what were solid industries, such as oil. Food will also be an issue. In many places the droughts coupled with global warming are killing crop production. Longer life spans and advancements in medicine mean more people to feed and provide water for. Many changes will occur, many new industries will be born but it will take time and it won't happen without the cost of sacrifice.

People have to get used to the idea that our unnecessary luxuries will be cut back, if not entirely. The world is suffering much more than we are here and our enemies haven't stopped wanting to destroy us. If the mentalities change and the people begin to work towards bettering our nation/world then I don't believe we will head into the next great depression. My belief is that most people will choose not to change until it is too late. Too much dependence on someone else fixing the problem, ex. the Government.

The government can not run ANY agency effectively, let alone the Banking industry. An example is forcing banks to make loans to unqualified applicants who fail to repay their loans. And how many BILLIONS of taxpayer dollars are spent on ILLEGAL aliens - money that could be used to address other problems. Add to that corrupt and/or liberal politicians who will do anything to buy a vote! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> People are going to have to assume personal responsibility for their lives, and not think the government should take care of them! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I better quit my rant before I get REALLY hot!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

I got it! All we have to do is stop paying taxes...

Where have I seen this before...

Now that's a sure-fire way to become a ward of the state! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Nasty recession, yes. Depression, no.

This is a very interesting time we live in.

I voted that we are heading for world wide depression, and I believe that
we are in a severe recession right now. The problem as I see it, is the
perception of the general public.
If the general population fears that there are rough times ahead, then they
pull back their money for when things get tougher. Problem is, that when
they hold back their money then they slow the economy down, which then
contributes to the problem....slippery slope time folks.
Right now, we are very close to the point where you just start to slide.
You can get out of the slide still, but all it's going to take is one or
two more slugs to the economy and away we go.

My $3.95 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation, currency exchange, and taxes)

That was an expensive post my friend, lol.

What gets me is that this is what the terrorists wanted but despite all of their attempts we were the ones who shot ourselves in the foot.

Not so much of a depression as a recession again.

People are working but for less money. One job does NOT pay the bills anymore. Wives working,children working everyone I know seems to be cutting back on spending. More local vacations and less cruises and islands around here anyway.
We keep pretty active in our little community through schools and churches and that is happening all around here. And yes people are comparing notes and taking about it. When will "it" end. And just what "it" is. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

Being in a resort community and capitalizing on it by cleaning homes on the area lakes we see a great drop in Chicago's wealthy hiring cleaning people and those who still have regulars like us are cutting back to no winters, and every other week instead of weekly. And others still only once a month from bi-monthly. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So if the wealthy,and commoners are all cutting back judging from Delavan.Lake Geneva,and Fontana Wisconsin people are all tightening their belts.

I'm toying with doing a bank job for some much need cash in a hurry. I am still in the planing stages but I am open to suggestions as to how and what to do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/paperbag.gif" alt="" />

Peace.

I can recall what my parents told me about not having enough food on the table, eating flour soup (my father still shudders when one mentions it). Thats a depression.

If you are wondering if you should postpone the purchase of the next car, now thats a recession.

uh oh! Yard Dogs 11!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

im with you PoP. im a landscaper for the quite rich. we have had a few maint jobs that were once a week go to every 2 weeks. and we've luckily only lost 1 account to lack of money DUE to the market. But, the contractor who we work for on installation jobs just did a remodel, is building a new house and has 2 more lots getting prep'd for building. so like bodhi said i think its a recession since im still working.

but i do think its time for a change like art said. best thing to do is buy some land up in the mountains. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Can you lend me a few bucks for a down payment? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think things will improve by this summer.

Don't worry - be happy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hell...a bad day in America can be heaven for some in Africa...ditto Britain...Tolly said it right...ignore the hype and lace your boots and take on the day...and as P/K said....be happy...because we do have a lot to be chuffed about compared to many...and worry destroys your health just as much as any other germ or virus. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/chill.gif" alt="" />

Agreed.




I could not agree more. This is part of the problem with FAILING companies like GM too. Bigger isn't always better. Not to mention that a new car 25 years ago cost 3 grand.

The gov't is so wasteful is makes me sick. Obama where is your scalpel I heard you talking about? Some things need cutting!(although I think he needed a chain saw let alone the hatchet? he mentioned


Thats funny.


It is hard for very qualified buyers to get loans now.

the most tangible evidence that the bailouts were a dumb idea.

"hey guys, let's give billions in tax revenue to the biggest and baddest crooks in the country and see if they change their act."

that is also something of a contradiction to that whole 'share the wealth' initiative, too. the banks kept the money and the rich got richer. japan has tried the bank bail out multiple times and it always failed. don't see that on the news because the press sucks. they need an overhauling as much as the politicians do.

I vote for total economic collapse....I believe it is inevitable.

Just make sure you speak French cause that's where we are headed. Not to mention dissing our allies like Britain and Israel and making friends with Hamas and the Taliban...WTF is going on here? I hope we can recover and keep our countries values in tact (especially our constitutional rights) but I see it headed in the wrong direction right now. Socialized health care, socialized banks, socialized education and even socialized charities + bigger government + failing economy + failing relationships with both allies and non-allies + failed values and the loss of our constitutional rights (possibly - we have to see where this goes - right to bear arms, free speech ,etc.)...Not sure what to think anymore but I certainly hope it all turns out okay. Thoughts?

Oh yeah, and I think we are headed for a prolonged recession or a depression unless the gov changes course - the way I see it now we will be in a deep recession that requires the nation turning socialist to get us out and that's not good or preferable.

Viva La France'!!!

The gov't and all of its entities(SS, MedC/A, not so WelF, etc) need major overhauling. They are a group/company much like say umm, GM. They need a new plan just as bad as GM, or any other mess of a company.




Can we actually vote for good solutions/candidates?

There is a great email going around about getting a divorce between lib/cons, dem/rep. Basically, the cons/Reps take the companies, guns, Constitution, NRA etc and the lib/Dem get welfare, ACLU, higher taxes etc.

Where would you want to live, well we all know.

Depression/Recession definitions aren't fixed to benchmarks. Many would call a depression a period where GDP falls by 10% or more; by that definition, we aren't there (yet). Another definition is that a depression is a period of "recession that lasts longer and has a larger decline in business activity." The average recession lasts about a year, this decline (at least in the stock market) has been going for about 1.5 years.

My retirement plan is down by just over 60% since 10/31/07 -- oddly enough, the government claims that GDP actually increased during much of that time, so if we were actually in a period of continued economic growth, why were all my personal benchmarks down by so much? The Fed denied we were even in a recession until late 2008 -- I don't want to sound like a conspiracy nut, but I believe creative accounting isn't limited to companies -- politicians don't have to accept blame for the economy as long as the numbers can be manipulated to say it's fine. If they can just hang a big enough "Mission Accomplished" sign, maybe we'll believe that this little problem is all over.

I'm not saying that I'd prefer to live in a different country, but I am saying that there appears to be a profound lack of accountability in both the public and private sector, as well as an ongoing attempt to hide the scope of the problem.

My dad was raised in the depression as well. Luckily, they were on a farm,
and had the ability to have a garden and the ability to snag venison for meat.
He often told me about the guys who would come round for meals. Grandma was
Irish from the old country, and new what it was like to go hungry, so she
always fed them what she could and they helped out with chores and such.
There wasn't much, but they made do.
You mentioned that your dad cringed at the mention of "flour" soup.
For my dad, it was "potato" soup.

Did a google search for U.S. job loss and found this report from
your Department of Labor
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm


Sad news, but it isn't just a U.S. problem though.
This same thing is happening all around the world.
And that is really scary because when the momentum starts to develop,
it will be very difficult to stop.

I really, really hope that I'm wrong and that it's only a bad recession,
but I'm preparing for the worst case scenario first.

the $3.95 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation, currency exchange and taxes) is
because I live in Canada. Everything is more expensive here... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

GDP is measured against the rest of the world. it can grow while our economy crumbles. the rest of the world just has to fall further than we do.

actually, Israel is our strongest ally <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

then we should have veto'd the cease fire.

actually, ally or not, it should have been veto'd. F'n press shoulda had more coverage of the israeli schools being bombed for the past decade, but instead that's overlooked, so none of the sheep are screaming that hamas must be stopped. all idiots.

i don't care who wins that war. just voicing the truth: the right to self defense is inalienable.

Not just how he treated the GB PM but did you see the embarrassing gift exchange? Check it out here: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,507965,00.html

And, I don't think Israel is getting treated any better - We are paying to rebuild Palestine and befriending Hamas. I can't imagine Israel is liking that too much.

Oh well...

Maybe Prezbo's Kenyan heritage makes him not like Great Britain. It was a surprising way to treat an ally. An ally that once captured Washington DC and burned the White House. Allies come and go, don't they?

we were never supposed to have allies to begin with.

If we hadn't had France we would have lost the revolution.

yeah,tell me about it.i dont know the exact difference between a recession and depression fiscally speaking but i know what a depression is when i'm living it.

i couldnt even think about grabbing the HG-55 even if i did like it and i couldnt get the muk either and probably wont be able to get anything busse kin for a long time.actually i've sold 50% of my knives in the last month or so.

i got what i call a 50% or "half lay-off" recently where i went from full-time to part time and its looking permanent.honestly i'm scared crap less.[censored] near hopeless.as long as i can scrape enough together foe my tequila i can get out of bed every day but thats only after laying there forever staring at the ceiling first for an hour or two.

i know i'm junior in age to many here but i dont like the idea of going to school at 29 and switching careers.

knives where a luxury for me but thats in the past.i doubt i'll be going to BLADE this year either.

boo-hoo,i'll shut up now.

Things are definitely tighter for me, but it is more the increase in prices than anything else, since I am living on a pension. Your situation sounds recession related. Lets hope things turn around soon.

i was going to add that, stressing the "supposed."

Ewww
Politics...
Lets order a pizza and have a drink instead.

I'm with you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />
Too much depressing news over the last 6 months.
Need to take a vacation, go camping, do some fishing, chop stuff with my knives,
and generally stick my head in the sand for awhile to recharge.

Pizza, I really like Lil" Ceasars pizza, 5.99 out the door for a "large" with one topping. Enough change left over to even buy beer.

I saw The Patriot.

They sent one guy. And that was toward the end!

Besides, France is the only country I know of that LOST their own revolution.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Please I am sick of the news...period! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" />

Vic is right... without France, we wouldnt exist. But now we call them ______.

The depression, recession??? whaaaaatttt!!! OBAMA's going to fix it all! I know it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So how do you think Isreal will consider a President whose father was Muslim and whose step father was also Muslim...and who has applied considerable pressure to stop the shelling of Gaza?

France is also the prime supporter of the Arab cause among the G10 countries and amongst those Nato countries providing support for joint operations deployment to assist with Afghanistan and Iraq contributes the least....along with Germany.Where as suprise suprise...when you get to go over there you might see a fair number of British troops...same as Gulf War I & II,Korea, WWII & WWI.

Even in Vietnam our commonwealth Australian and NZ forces were there with you...where as Isreal in all conflicts since WWII and their foundation has never offered any joint alli troop support.

As for his treatment of our Prime Minister...it is no secret that our Labour Party had with Tony Blair a great working relationship with the former President and I suspect that may still play a part in a new incoming party's views. He also may not have been impressed with the levels of "benefits" his brother ( also a Muslim ) was receiving when he visited him in London. However as far as benefits go...Britian is probably one of the most generous State providers. So go figure???

Well Peter, many of our younger folks are not familiar with Britian's involvement with the United States and their wars. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> It is too easy to be influenced by the "news" as presented on television, combined with the ever-changing and more "politically correct" teaching in our schools which reflects the liberal views of our teachers. Money "talks" and can change history - depending on who is "bought". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

I would like you to know that millions of Americans STILL appreciate our strongest ally!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Tom

I was apalled by the lack of respect shown the Prime Minister by PrezBO. His handlers should have figured out a way for him to use teleprompters at such occasions so he would know what to do and what to say.

With all the talk of Britian and / or Isreal being bantered about here, I would like
to put in a little plug for Canada as being the true "best" ally of the U.S.

We are your biggest (by a large margin over the next in line) economic trading partner.

We are co-partners in NORAD. In fact, it was a Canadian General at duty stations in NORAD,
who was the one who ordered all domestic air-traffic halted on 9/11.

We have a proud tradition of shared military history with your country.
In fact, 2 of our head military leaders have served as commanders in the U.S. Army

General Rick Hillier
Former Chief of Defense Staff for the Canadian Armed Forces, military leader of the Canadian
Armed Forces (similar to being the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon)

First ever Canadian Deputy Commanding General III Corps U.S. Army at Fort Hood Texas

General Walter Natynczyk Present Chief of Defense Staff for the Canadian Armed Forces
Graduate of the US Army War College.
Deputy Commanding General III Corps at Fort Hood Texas, deployed with the III Corps to Baghdad (2004).
Served as the Deputy Director of Strategy, Policy and Plans, as the Deputy Commanding General of the
Multi-National Corps (Iraq) and as commander of the III Corps 35,000 soldiers (consisting of 10 separate
brigades) stationed throughout the Iraq Theatre of Operations.

I would think that when it comes to your military allies throughout the world,
you only need to take a look at your neighbors to the north to see true friends.

Yeah', I suppose you guys are OK too! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

There is truth in that statement.

Cut your quote down, hope you don't mind. We also have to remember that corn production has been affected by ethenol research and production, wheat production goes outside the US, and the oil industry is shutting down pumps and rigs all over the place. A good friend of mine in the oil industry told me the other day that his company closed like 80 something rigs in the last two weeks.

I can tell you that in my history classes the facts are not liberal tainted and the students leave my class knowing about who our allies are.

I too was appalled by the way Britain's PM was treated. However, I am even more appalled at the way the "Bailout" and "Stimulas" money has been thrown out without any checks or balances. To think that my current and future tax dollars are being given as bonuses for failure---that just erks me. And to think, I am getting audited right now because the goberment thinks that my tax claims for education expenses are bogus---why can we not audit them without having to wait 4 years?

Yes, the bailout money for "bonus" failure payments is happening over here as well....the former head of one bank is soooo well off on his retirement package...it has gone to a parliamentary enquiry....he get's tens of millions....they worked it out at £30,000 per week!!!!! To retire on!!!!!!!!

He just took £2.7m AFTER TAX....from the bank...as a lump sum!!!!£5m before tax!!!

He was asked to retire after "bankrupting" the bank!!!!!! I mean....WHAT is going on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would like to see him in the Sandpit.....earning his money the hard way....

In fact...I had better make a cup of tea before I say what I really feel should happen to people like that...

I understand your feelings Peter, believe me!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

Is it just because I am getting old, or do things seem to change more frequently and with more intensity than they once did? Things seem less predictable and more chaotic with each passing day. Almost nothing surprises me anymore. The recent economic mess is just one aspect of this tremendous rate of change that seems to be occurring all over the world. Well, enough of my foolish esoteric ramblings. Do any of you have this feeling of some un-named force of rapid change in all areas of human endeavor?

HD, I'm young and wow have things changed fast! Within the last year, give or take, I went back to my old highschool to get some information for a job. Apparently, my college transcript wasn't enough. Anyway, what a freak show, the "kids" looked way different than when I went.

Like today, I read where the Fed "created" a trillion dollars out of thin air. Won't that make all the dollars in circulation be devalued? That was a Herald Tribune story.

What are we going to DO about or situation? Some of us tried to vote in a solution, some of us voted in a problem. What are we to do?

I wish I knew. My real income drops every time the Fed increases the money supply. Maybe buy some gold? Sure don't trust the stock market right now. And who can say that McCain would do any different. He was always courting the favor of big spending democrats anyway. All this bailout stuff worries me. Personally, I am building up a supply of canned food. I hear of some serious crop failures all over the place due to draught. Food prices continue to rise. I don't care for chicken that much, but beef is super high and going up. I can get a whole chicken for under $4.00 and just bake it. My kids like it. I rub olive oil on it and then lemon pepper. Serve with rice and it's still a cheap meal. It's much cheaper than buying a cut up chicken. And I have a knife! I think storing up rice and dried beans might be smart. Maybe I'll grow some tomatoes.

Wow, beef is real low by us. Heck, ranchers can't give it away. You could buy a 400 pound heifer for .78 cents a pound. You don't waste muc meat to bone and hide on beef like deer and elk. Domestic breeding makes them get a much higher yield these days. That would be alot of steaks and hamburger if you have the freezer room.

I bet they are selling it cheap now because they can't afford to feed the cattle. Isn't there a severe draught in Texas now? Beef is high here.

we bought a house today


stimulate the economy ...right?

WAY TO GO VANCE, Congrats.

+1 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am hungry after reading HD Chicken meal, and of course the rib deal in Chat. But to move on to a serious deal.

HD mentioned things happening faster than it used to. I believe that a lot of the current situation was brought on by the use of computers and real time. By having this technology at our finger tips people get "real world" reports, news, tips, etc instantly--people did not have this in the '29 Depression or even the recession in the early '80s. Just a theory though, I could be way off.

I wonder how many people that voted for BHO had a clue what he was thinking on the economy, much less thinking anything? I am with HD about McCain, I don't know if he could do any better but at least he has more political/gov't experience. I don't know if anyone can fix this mess. it just makes me sick to know that the hard working middle class get the screw while handouts are given to un-motivated people sitting on their butts and companies that hand out bonuses for failing on a whim.

I guess I need to quite preaching to the peanut gallery and go get something to eat.

As I said before, both Republican and Democratic administrations dropped the ball on regulating the financial industry. That failure allowed unethical practices to become the norm:
Commercial Banks (as opposed to Investment Banks) made loans that they knew, or certainly should have known had they done any verification at all, were bad. They didn't care because they collected fees for initiating the loans, then packaged them as Asset Backed Securities and/or Mortgage Backed Securities, and sold them for additional profits before the any of the loans became a problem.

There's evidence that ratings companies knew that the ABSs and MBSs they were rubber stamping as AAA were far too risky to deserve that rating, but they were unregulated and the Commercial Banks paid them for good ratings -- they basically had a license to print money.

Investment Banks and Funds Managers bought the securities, which most of them knew were risky, but AIG was selling cheap "investment insurance" (Credit Default Swaps) and as long as home prices continued to skyrocket, people could sell their homes for a profit instead of defaulting on loans that they couldn't pay back -- particularly if their loan had a low introductory rate so that they could make small payments for the first couple years.

AIG was hugely over-leveraged, but housing prices will keep going up forever, right (after all, the one thing they ain't making more of is land)?

Politicians of every stripe wanted to encourage home ownership, so they weren't going to do anything to upset the apple cart. Not only were they not going to regulate this wonderful new economic engine that just goes up and up forever, they relaxed enforcement of existing regulations.

Then, an overheated housing market stumbled -- there were more houses than buyers, prices declined, people found themselves upside-down on their home loans, when they began to default (because they couldn't sell and pocket "free money" as they used to, because they owed more than the house was worth, if they could even find a buyer), which made those ABAs and MBAs "toxic" as the bundled mortgages went into default, and AIG couldn't cover the volume of losses.

There's plenty of blame to go around, but I think Republicans (with whom I more closely identify than Democrats) were marginally more at fault. My decision was based on the economy, coupled with an idiotic war in Iraq (Saddam was a bad piece of work who oppressed his people, but I care far less about that than that he counterbalanced Iran) and a bungled war in Afghanistan -- when troops would have been most effective at blocking the border to Pakistan, they were pulled for Iraq. Coupled with erosion of personal freedoms and human rights abuses in the name of security. So... I voted for Obama, not because I agree with his policies, but because I disagree with what has become standard Republican dogma. I'm not saying that I believe he'll do a great job -- I really don't think anyone could recover from the problems he inherited, but I think he'll do less harm in the long run than "staying the course" would.

I'm getting depressed by reading this thread! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" /> What does this have to do with knives anyway, other than explain why some of us can't get every one we want?!!? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, Tom. Here's a picture of some guns to cheer you up! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I voted that a depression is coming. Plain and simple it is getting bad and I am getting ready. My property taxes are going up (3000 per year 5 years ago 7000 a year now) I am building a chicken coop and a good size garden , I have freez dried foods and canned plus lots of beans and rice, I am also stocked up on meds. Did I mention that the best investment I have made is ammo I have plenty of it to hunt and defend my home with and I reload it as well, it WILL be worth its weight in gold. I could be wrong but I would rather be prepared and not need it rather that need it and not be prepared. Hope I just end up eating all of that food up camping or hiking in the summer but I fear the worst.

Vic - now I AM depressed!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/paperbag.gif" alt="" />...................... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />




Stan - you're not alone Brother! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have faith in President Obama and his administration. At this point, they are about all we have to believe in, in terms of hope for getting back on the right road... they arent going to fix it all but they can start things in the right way... the FIRST thing we have to do is regain control of the financial market. The government HAS to make sure this happens. If the financial system in this nation goes to hell, all is lost. Everything. Period. Get all the guns you want, it wont matter.

Part of the problem is the govt. controlling the financial market, thats called SOCIALISIM. When I purchased my home I purchased what I could afford I didn't look for a "bailout" size home this country in a whole has screwed up not just the Dems or the Repubs. I hope we pull out and go back to the good ole days but the guns give me this sense of security that protecting my family and home and life and only the guns can do! Like I said I would rather be prepared and not need it......

The way things look today, with the average person and the "elite" of not only
your country but others as well, have a familiar ring to them. I don't think
that the aim is to set up a socialistic state, but rather a feudalistic state.
I have a theory about that, but don't want to give a boring discourse that will
put many to sleep.

I'm curious to know which good ole days would those be?


Have to agree with Reconseed on this one. You'd better hide those guns really
good, because if the government wants them, they will take them from you, plain
and simple.

Sorry for sounding so negative on this Stan. I'd really like to see the return
to simpler times too, but this world has fundamentally changed since 9/11, and
there's no way it's ever going to go back to what it was.
The world has surrendered too much power to "government" and they not only
don't want to give it back, they want to take more.

RSeed, I hope he can fix the problems too. I don't care who fixes them. Along the way I don't want to lose my rights/freedom though. Heck, what would be the point of any of it without that right?

Also, remember Obama saying he was going to take his "scalpel" and do some cutting? What has he cut, he has only spent. The spending might even help, heck I hope it does. What I worry about though is all the other issues where he HAS catered to the far left instead of devoting ALL his time to the "financial" issues at hand. He does have bigger fish to fry.

Again, I hope you are right that he can get us back on track. At this point I think he will have the help of a Republican congress is a few years.

We need less govenment and to say we need reform is a major understatement. We need to start from scratch on a few things and some of these guys think that is where we are heading want to or not.

We need reform in our markets and our government. Corruption in both the government and our financial systems has to go. We need to cleanse the system of corrupt politicians of every stripe and party. I am absolutely against a government run central planned economy. It just doesn't ever work except for the political elites at the top. I am an unapologetic capitalist and republican.

[quote I am an unapologetic capitalist and republican. [/quote]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />Who Hoo

I have given up worrying about a recession or depression and am putting my faith in Congress. Please listen to this awe inspiring speech by Congresswoman Brown of the great state of Florida. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/paperbag.gif" alt="" />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5tXMLI-OsI&feature=related

Don't worry. Be happy!

cplucker, I watched that video. Should of known she was a democRAT. Also, we are paying them to do that? That is what they spend their/our time doing?

[censored] shame aint it??

"go gator"

"corch urban meyer"


boy oh boy

I used to be staunchly Republican. But since the so called Republicans up there in D.C. are completely spineless and don't really seem to represent me anymore, I consider myself Independent.

And yes, I think we are headed for a depression/collapse if we don't stop the endless spending.

a link for everyones perusal:

http://www.pushhamburger.com/eat_cake.htm

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

To be honest I don't know why I keep visiting this thread because all I do is start thinking about how bad it can get. In reality we have a bad situation but it could be a lot worse, and I fear that it will get to even worse conditions before it gets better. I have been lax on supplying the staple foods so I need to start on that and the meds, but everything else is covered pretty much except I need a lot more .22lr, and some reloading supplies.

It is times like this I thank God I spent time with my PaPa who was a survivor of the Great Depression. My PaPa taught me a lot about living off the land, adapting, fishing, the outdoors, etc. Back then I thought it was fun and neat to spend time with him, but now that I am older I realize that he was passing on important lessons. Least I digress.