With Scrap Yard using SR-101 for the upcoming S5CG, I thought I'd show you guys some info that dates back to 2002, so many of you may have not seen it.

SR-101:








More info here: http://www.swampratknifeworks.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000118#000000











SR-77:





[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/MRpilot/DogFatherTothefloor2.jpg[/img]




Without getting into differentially/thorough heat treating, it looks like to me like they're pretty equal in these two test. The SR-77 does bend a bit further, but you won't find me trying to do that. SR-101 is definitely Scrap Yard worthy, bring on the S5CG!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

thanks for BTT'ing those pics! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

it certainly does show that sr101 and sr77 are very close in toughness!

i believe that rat being used is a battle rat <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yeah it's the battle rat and dog father.

I can't wait for tuesday! I wonder if it's going to be offered in black and tan and if it's going to sport a "SR-101" stamp.

i cant wait for tuesday for some other reason as well (knife package!)

im going to have to get one in the dark colors...tan just aint my thing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for posting the pics and link. The SR101 being tested was differentially heat treated correct? Just curious have through hardened blades been tested?

The BR being tested on the pictures was differentially tempered.

Id love to score a NEW SR Bandicoot with the penetrator tip on it!!!

But yea, this debate has gone on forever it seems. Both steels are good both have their strong suits. Personally, I like SR77 better and thus think it is a better steel all around. I have used the mini mojo from SR and the S6 and others in HEAVY use when in the field and the abuse that the S6 took was simply unreal. THen again, the Mojo was beaten hard too. Both are good steels, but for me, SR77.

In light use with the smaller knives, I didn't notice much difference. Had I done more extensive cutting I would have found out that SR101 holds an edge much longer than SR77. I first discovered the difference after some extended chopping with my Chopweiler. It just never seemed to dull, while I had to lightly touch up my DF with a ceramic rod from time to time. The point is, Recon, until you have used both steels side by side for a while, you won't know the difference. You can be sure that SR101 is plenty tough for use in a military knife and has superior edge holding to SR77.

Excellent pics. I hadn't seen these before. I have great faith in the Yard's products... hurry up tomorrow!

Both seem to be super tough steel. [censored] that SR-77 blade sure does bend. Im sure the S5 will be a great knife no matter what steel is used.

For what it is worth I think the heat treat on the SR101 might be slightly higher than that given to INFI....by this I mean my RMD seems to keep a razor edge slightly better than my smallest INFI blades...which are 6 inches...save that my first Skinny Ash which has been sharpened by far the most....now does match the RMD...it is as if the INFI blades need to have a bit of steel removed to get to their best...whereas the SR101 RMD seems able right from the off...

I have heard other HOGS mention this in the past...and it seems to pan out so far for me...regarding some INFI edges improving after a few sharpenings....naturally none has ever said SR101 holds a better edge....maybe my experience is just a reflection of this need to take the INFI edges down a bit with sharpening before they give of their best......

I always love seeing those pics, helps remind me of why I love my Scrappers and Rats. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Vic, SR101 is more rust prone than SR77 and it costs more.... (not worth it to me) I have used both knives side by side thank you. I have a CHopweiler, a Mini Mojo, and 3 wardens and 4 RIPs. Trust me Vic, I HAVE used this steel along side my SR77. I have just liked SR77 more. Its my personal opinion and Im sticking to it. If SR101 wasnt as rust-prone as it is, I would have more affection for it.

I like rust! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I don't see rust being a problem with me because I always clean my blades after use...

Since you only want coated blades I didn't figure rusting was a problem. I just prefer the superior edge holding of SR101. They are both good steels, so to each his own.

I hope they realease the S5CG in Black and Tan... Tan is by far my favorite!
It would be awesome to have more colors too, Like bama clay and moss green, but i'm sure they will save those for special runs..

I'd like one with a black handle and a sage blade, like my Urban Mutt, but I'll take it in whatever color is offered. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Coated SR101 is the bomb and if you (1) have coated steel or (2) keep your knives dry rust is a non issue. Even if you get a bit of surface rust on a user, it is easy to clean up.

looks like the new S5 CG is out for R S

Rust is not a deal breaker for me either and I'm VERY excited to hear these are going to be sr101!
Dan is right... its the PERFECT steel.

I just wonder how I'll like the mudders... you dogs all seem to really like them though so if the price is right I will probably get one!

I think sr101 is much more useful for a knife this sise.
I've found sr77 dings easier than some other 5160 and 1095 blades I have and although it has amazing toughness sr101 is not going to break either and is going to resist edge deformation easier and hold a good edge.

I'll probably attempt to strip it eventually (after I wear the finish down some) and rust is really not going to effect the blade AT ALL.

I'm very excited!

The mudders fit like a glove!

The S5 is going to be great no doubt, in SR101. ANd Vic you are right, in terms of cutting tasks, the SR101 will be better in this size of a knife. However, the edge of the blade which is uncoated, does tend to rust faster than my SR77 blades. The Mojo has a small amount of rust on the edge and where the coating has worn off. Its small though.

RCS, if you get some petroleum jelly ( Vaseline over here and I think it's the same in the US ) and coat the blade/edge it prevents rust, is none toxic and when you want to light a fire rub a cotton wool ball over the blade and clean the vaseline off and you have a great bit of tinder as it burns well....

This works well for all tool steels and the so called stainless...which can also rust.

Rust on weapons and knives does'nt happen if you take these sort of preventative steps...

good point steelfan

I think the SR101 will do what ever anyone needs for pretty much any application unless your "in" the water.

true gambit. sr101 is a great steel and i dont want any fella DAWGS to think i DO NOT like it. I just like SR77 better <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Strawberry and chocolate are both good.

Thanks for the folks who did the chemistry and the R&D for these steel formulations that we have grown to admire.

I have knives of many different steel types, but don't have INFI or SR101. (I DO now have SR77 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ).

Either would be a great addition to the family.

INFI, SR77, and SR101 - all Busse steels are THE BEST of all knife steels worldwide. Period. whatever you like the best, you like the best.

When I am out in the yak SR77 really doesn't seem to rust. 101 rusts if I look at it wrong. I like them both.

I have never used 101. I imagine if it holds an edge as well as everyone talks about and I wipe it and use vasoline to coat I should have no issues (not to mention it will be coated to begin with!)

Yes, the CG S5 will be a next generation alternative RMD and I don't think you will have any issues looking after it....coated and protected it will be fine...one of my RMD's is stripped and I live in the wetest part of England and it is clipped to my Daysack or Bumbag whenever I go out walking which is daily...and no problems...HD has one the same and lives on a salt marsh...no problems either....sometimes storage rather than regular use is a bigger risk...use vasiline and it will be fine...

Thanks for bringing this to the top.

I use Ballistol, it was invented by the German before WWI. Use it on wood, leather, steel, cleaning agent, stops rust from corrosive ammo, and marine use. It lends itself to being diluted in water too. Good stuff.

i love this thread <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lets see the pics already....

Bump! Bring the S5!!!

Just curious...How does the SR-77 and SR-101 compare to a steel like the CPM S30V? Anyone know or have any thoughts?

They are both tougher than S30V.

I hear it holds a pretty good edge, but doesn't get as fine of an edge as SR-77/SR-101 because it's a powder steel.

Give me SR77 and SR101 any day over S30V! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Yeah I only like stainless in folders - small enough and weak enough that the brittleness isn't gonna be an issue.

I have a few fixed blades in S30V, the Al Mar SERE Operator, Chris Reeve Green Beret, and the Ritter Survival. They are good knives, and I really put the GB through some beating and abuse, but for toughness I'd choose any of the Busse-made steels or one of the Rangers in 5160 over my S30V blades. If Scrappers, Swamp Rats, and Busses weren't tougher than ordinary knives, none of us would even be here on this forum.

I hope that Dan brings more SR101 (and Infi) to the Yard in all shapes and sizes.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

+2

I think I would even prefer Differentially heat treated SR-101 for a Wakazashi! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


SR-101 is EXTREMELY tough and PLENTY tough for EXTREME use blades of MANY sizes. Differentially heat treated as needed offers even more toughness when needed. Although, I have seen some through hardened Battle Rats take pretty tough abuse. And I just LOVE the edge properties (sharpness, edge holding, ease of sharpening, etc.) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

Yeah I'd definitely love to see more SR101 make it to the Yard. After figuring out the source of the damage to my mini mojo, I am incredibly impressed with how little damage it actually did. Very impressive stuff.

Yeah I love the differentially tempered blades like the old school BR and CT. I stripped my BR and it showed the temper line really good. It makes the blade look that much better. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Visible temper lines look hot... kinda make me drool a little bit.

As long as Dan keeps his price to performance motto, I like having all 4 steels used on different knives.

+1

Although not so much the stainless <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

+2

I think I would even prefer Differentially heat treated SR-101 for a Wakazashi! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


Now you're talking!!!!!! That's a chopper I'm waiting for. Once every couple weeks I show my wife an AK for sale and ask to buy it for me. She laughs and says "Keep dreaming!"

Vic makes a good point.. if Busse-kin werent tougher than everything else, we wouldnt be here.


Rainwalker - i agree, give me any of the 3 over S30V. though it is good for Folders like spyderco for example.

Hey Recon, did you buy the S5??

5 steels is fine with me if the price is right. It is not like you can beat the warranty from and of the Busse names.

+2 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

No. funds are rough now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" />

Bummer.

On the good side, you have weeks.

Whatever SYKCO produces...

How about a 5 steel laminate. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Here's a question about steels, if someone would be so kind as to educate me. When I was young my cousin was into Samurai swords. He'd tell me how they would fold and hammer out the metal thousands of times which made the steel virtually unbreakable...true?

Well that is true but the "unbreakable" aspect comes from the differential temper as well....coating the spine in clay and on the sabre grind sides gives a cooler temperature on those areas when heat treating the blade...so the hard carbon added to the middle of the folding process means the edge can take a high Rc heat treatment but the sides and spine become differentially tempered by the painting of clay on the blade.

Each swordsmith would have a different painting stroke and this adds to the steel giving the "hamon" to the blade...it acts like a "signature" to identify the swordsmith...and by having a lower heat treat on the spine it could absorb strikes from other blades when blocking and moving the opponents sword...but a full on strike to the spine has caused the sword which is struck to break...as have full power clashes of edge to edge...that is why a Samaurai would learn to cut with the blade on the back stroke....bringing the blade back towards him...the parry and thrust is done with the edge pointing down...Aido is a cool sport if you like Samaurai swords and want to learn how they were used...I think there are a number of Sensei masters on Hawaii for Aido...but the spelling can be varied in different country's...it is phonetic from the Japanese....and means basically Sword fighting...

Wow, THAT is an incredible explanation! Thank you Steel Fan! Great info! From your explanation, I can put the scenes of older Samurai movies together to understand why they strike like they do. I just thought it was part of the technique. I never though it had to do with the steel of the sword. You are true to your screen name!

Is Aido anything like Kendo or is it totally different in technique? I've always love the Samurai and sword play has always interested me but I wouldn't have the money (may have the time) to concentrate on really learning the art <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Sorry to have taken this thread off track...to get back on...I was on the RAT website earlier in the evening (thinking of getting an Izula) and noticed they use a 1095 steel. How does (or does it?) differ from SR-101 and SR-77?

Aido is similar in foot work to Kendo but it is done with a proper sword and as such involves "Kata's" or sequences of movement through which practise gives skill and timing...you will also develop skills for "cutting" and this is learnt from actually cutting mediums such as straw or bamboo...fighting with a steel sword does not really happen in my experience but I am sure in Japan it may...it probably depends on the level of excellence you achieve...
interestingly a Samurai would learn this skill with a carved wooden sword...carved however like a Samurai sword not a Kendo sword...duels between Samurai sword masters often simply used wooden swords as they would seek to preserve their "family" steel sword from damage...and any strike by the wooden sword would be lethal if they so chose it to be...Miamoto Mushashi developed a technique using two swords which was considered disrespectful to the old ways...many challenged him as a point of honour...he would fight however with his wooden swords...and killed many of his opponents who were using a steel blade.

The safer form of training using a Bamboo sword...which size wise is more akin to using a "lance or spear" became Kendo...it is good for technique with your feet but the strike of the sword is different with a steel blade than a Bamboo kane...as you say from watching old films where the actors were using stunt "master swordsmen" for action sequences...you can tell that the strikes are different as they know of the need to preserve the sword from being broken.

But it is not readily appreciated that the carved wooden sword probably killed more people in combat duels than metal swords...these were very expensive back then and revered like a religous symbol...indeed the religion/philosophy of "Bushido" holds the sword as central to it...families have swords passed down father to son...

1095 is a more common steel - it's supposedly very prone to rust, but I've never had any problems. Cold Steel's Carbon V is a variation on 1095, and I believe Camillus used some of it too.

The heat treat is probably more important than the steel itself, and RAT seems to have a good heat treat, as they make some pretty tough, durable knives.

Woah SF! Your knowledge of the topic is staggering! Is it safe to say you study Aido? I'm not sure if you saw the movie "The Last Samurai" with Tom Cruise, but your mentioning of the wooden sword is seen there and matches up with what you say. It appears that the director tried to stick with reality as much as possible. I believe I saw an older Samurai move a couple of years ago where the Samurai, just like you said, only used a wooden sword. I wasn't sure if it was a thing of respect. You know, the enemy he's fighting wasn't worthy to die by his blade. The Samurai only used his metal sword on a couple of people. Great infomation <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

So would the difference in SR-101, 77 & 1095 be that they have different amounts of carbon in them making one tougher than the other or the toughness is primarily from the heat treat?

It's usually a bit more complicated than just the carbon, and unique trace elements definitely seem to play an important role. Heat treats are crazy important, though. I'm far from a steel expert, though, so I'll let someone with some more detailed knowledge chime in.

Toughness is dependant both on chemical composition and heat treatment...Knife Guy probably knows and has posted the most on this topic...do a search on his posts as I am sure he did a detailed breakdown on this topic not so long ago.

Certain trace elements can improve rusting...certain others improve strength and durability so the steel would not shatter or break. How high you take a heat treatment also impacts on shatter aspects and durability...and on how hard the steel is to sharpen and how long it may hold an edge. High Rc settings give a harder steel which holds an edge longer and usually to achieve this you need a good high carbon element to the steel...so carbon is very important...but as said above the best "super steel blades" often combine an inner core of high carbon steel and an outer core of a more durable and softer steel to give the blade strength...this is particularly so with powdered base steels which can be used as inner core edge steel for sharpness and then sandwiched either through a damascus process or done by a forge when pressing the steel with another steel for this effect. Most blades though use a singular composition of steel...not a blend...but can be capable of achieving similar effects through differential heat treatment which hardens the edge and inner core steel higher than the outer sides and spine.

In Busse knives SR101 has been given a differential heat treatment on some Swamp blades...Infi however does not seem to need it...although it has an usual composition for a steel and is the only one to contain Nitrogen...this combined with the special heat treatment seems to give a very high level of performance...SR77 is also uncommon in knives as it is usually used in Jackhammer bits...it is usually very hard to get it to take an edge needed on a knife and is designed to simply be tough...a special heat treatment to the steel enables this to be used by Scrapyard for knives but probably accounts for why SR77 holds an edge less well than Infi or SR101.

As to how the trace elements operate to give different "properties" to the steel...I would check some of KnifeGuys posts as he seems to follow this aspect quite well. For me I like a simple "overview" picture and that is how I remember the differences.

knifeguy knows the most on this subject. do a search. the search box is your friend.

Can also gain a vast amount of knowledge like I do,
I watch Kung Fu Movies on Saturday Mornings... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

(Flying Ninjas vs Iron Blades of Death is particular favorite)

The three steels do contain different amounts of carbon. They also contain different amounts of other elements that are used to make steels. 1095 is simply .95% carbon and no other trace elements. SR-77 and 101 are steels that contain other elements and a different amount of carbon (less). Carbon is what makes steel hard. More carbon equals harder steel but the trade-off is that as it gets harder it becomes more brittle. SR-77 is a variation of the S-7 spring steel and is low carbon - which equates to a softer steel but much tougher. The special heat treatment given to it by SY adds to its edge holding abilities.
I'm sure KG can offer more on this.

I'm currently trying to figure out what steel to try and make my first custom knife out of..And its not an easy choice. I'm thinking 1080, O-1 or 440-C.
Any suggestions/thoughts?

Waits for Knife Guy... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

actually, i wish we had 3 threads that were sticky that were titled:


each one..

SR-77
SR-101
INFI

if those 3 threads were sticky, we could add all the info we want there and then these comparison threads wouldnt come up as often... but then again, i like these threads!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SR77 fact thread? who's with me?

I learned everything I need to know about steel from Conan The Barbarian....


I am now a student of the Riddle of Steel <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

atta boy Mustard Man!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Conan the Barbarian!
I havent seen that in years...
Gonna have to get that betamax tape out and watch it.

Arnold, in his prime, was the man! He's still pretty much the man 30 years later.

Although, that one picture of him at the beach makes me cringe.

I wish they would release Conan on blu-ray... that would be sweet!

I'm sticking with conventional res DVDs for awhile yet. I really only watch DVDs on my iMac anyway.

A few years ago I saw lou ferrigno (hulk)at a comic book convention.
it was sad seeing him there charging like 20 bucks for a picture with him.
.

that chick from Buck Rodgers was there too...
Oh what was her name...
Wilma something maybe?

I am slowly replacing my DVD library with HD. I got hooked on HDTV watching the NFL sunday ticket on directv, and have been picking up more and more HD stuff. I'm sure that the minute I get everything I want on Blu-ray, they will release a new disc called purple-beam that is way better and costs three times as much, but that's the way it goes.

Probably right but fortunately the form factor seems to be backward compatible.

I was under the impression that the clay was painted on the edge not the spine. It makes more sense I guess on the spine.

And someday we will need to upgrade our Holodeck.

Thanks for the detailed info SF et.al. Those descriptions are good enough for me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> Chemistry of steel is truly fascinating. You guys amaze me with the amount of information you know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" />

I'm with you RECON! That is an excellent idea. I believe it would be helpful to new comers and "older" residence alike. Prior to finding the SY, I was looking for information about steel type (as mentioned before, I was looking at a RAT 6 and Coldsteel Scout) and a sticky with this type of info would have been great.

OK, now that we have rescued the HIJACKED thread <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I thought it was a good idea as well, maybe one of the mods or Renee or Dan will agree and start a thread called "SR77" and one called "SR101" and one called "INFI". in each respective thread we can talk about each steel and they will be sticky so then that way, at any time you have a ? about one of the 3 wonder steels, you can reference there as opposed to searching and posting the same thread over and over and over and over. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Stickies on the Bussekin Steels works for me... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />:):)

RS,

I appreciate your faith and I hate to dissappoint. But, what I know about steels is a scratch on the surface compared to the pros who work with it, heat treat it and forge it.

I can name qualities I have experienced and read about in regards to use. I can discuss some technical info that I have picked up from more knowledgeable people than myself.
But, I can NOT say I know the MOST about this subject. Sorry.

Some of what "I" believe is JUST "My" opinion based on use experience and LOTS of feedback by others. - I try very hard to make sure I put value in the feedback I take to be worthy.
Obviously, I don't agree with everybody and not everybody is going to agree with my opinions. In spite of my efforts, I have come to conclude that not everybody is going to agree with me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And I have also (sometimes) been able to come to terms with the "Fact" that maybe it is O.K. ( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ) if not everybody sees things my way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


"I" like SR-101's edge properties.... a LOT!
"I" think SR-101 is PLENTY tough for "My" uses! - Obviously, some think they need tougher. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
"I" don't love the fact that SR-101 will rust, but I have learned to deal with it and find dealing with it VERY worthwhile and NOT that hard to deal with. And SR-101 is NOT the worst at corroding. Some VERY highly regarded steels are worse at corroding (like: 1095, 5160, O1, and others) and some VERY highly regarded knife-makers often use those steels because: in spite of being prone to rust, they offer so many EXCELLENT knife qualities: toughness, edge retention and ease of sharpening.

"I" believe SR-77 is AMAZINGLY tough. But, I find SR-101 to be PLENTY tough for me.
"I" can get SR-77 sharp and for certain big choppers, I find SR-77 to have "Sufficient" edge qualities and significantly better than most any machetes or similar tools I am used to dealing with. But, I prefer SR-101's edge qualities quite easily.

Considering combining toughness and edge qualities, I still choose my BR over my DFLE and my CT over the SOD. I did not buy the SOD because I believed my CT is sufficient for my needs and finances are tight. I would not have replaced my CT with the SOD and it would have only served as a back-up.
For those who don't have a CT and can't buy one on the secondary market, the SOD is a GREAT option. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> - But, I didn't need it.

I have my own limits and values when it comes to price.

I might think INFI to be the BEST all-around steel and honestly, I have quite a few pieces of INFI. But, I OFTEN can't justify the price of INFI.

If I had a lot more money, my "Value" system might be different.
If I felt my life were going to ABSOLUTELY depend on a given knife, I would lean towards INFI and make sure it is a knife design I will ALWAYS have around.

Right now, I would LOVE to own a Porsche Cayman. But, I can't even come close to affording or justifying that right now. But, if I had a LOT more money, I would love a Ferrari 430. But, that is just me and "MY" values. Everybody is different.

Knives are NOT that much different.

What one person considers excessive, another considers minimum and vice versa.

MOST people I know consider $40 - $50 a LOT of money for ANY knife.

.... I will just leave it at that. Different values for different people.....


For me, while I might consider INFI the BEST if price is not a concern, I find SR-101 to be one of the BEST values and VERY good at actually doing most everything I want a knife steel to do. For me, INFI might have a higher toughness than SR-101 and better corrosion resistance, but I don't find I need the extra level of toughness and the cost for the improved corrosion resistance is just a bit too high for me in many cases.

..... plus, it often "Does" come down to design for me.

I am STILL not going to get over Talon Holes and non-usable choils on most ANY smaller Busse knife. The SAR4, Meaner, AD and similar just don't work for me. Luckily, for me, on smaller knives, I am even LESS prone to feel I need INFI.

So, SR-101, A2, 3V are ALL VERY good with other designs to be had.

For me, INFI is a BEST value in the mid-sized knives that I might abuse. SARSquatch, SJTAC, FSH, NMSFNO are some of my personal FAVORITE justifications for INFI.

I like the SAR5 a LOT, but I need to do a fair amount of moddifying to it's handle to reduce handle weight and size.

I am and have been interested in owning a Fusion Battle Mistress. But, I love the Res-C on my BR and DFLE for a chopper that even though I consider micarta nicer, I like Res-C for Feel and Function quite a bit on some knives. While I might be proud to own a FBM, I believe when I need it, I would reach for my BR. So, I have not justified a FBM. I did justify a NMFBM (really just a knee-jerk purchase... ), but I got what I expected, a VERY heavy knife that I don't expect to use. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> -
The NMFBM is nice and impressive, but there is NO DOUBT when I need a chopper sized knife, I will still reach for my BR and not the VERY heavy and cumbersom NMFBM.
For that amount of weight and size, I will reach for a WAY cheaper axe over such a high priced knife. I assume there is a good chance I will have to sell my NMFBM some day. For now, it is a queen.

In regards to the "technical" aspects of certain steels, I understand a fair amount, but even I have a LOT to learn and a lot yet I don't understand about hardening, tempering, quenching, annealing, normalizing, decarburizing, Austempering, Austenite, bainite, pearlite, martensite, marquenching, etc. etc. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I may understand many of the terms to a point, but with SO many different steels and SO many different variables among the chemstries of the different steel and what the "intended functional goals" of a given steel might be, and how to actually achieve these processes and end results..... I am "BELOW" novice/amature. Sorry. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

As a user, some of that is just WAY more simple to be left to the makers. And for us users to decide and compare by testing the end results.

If I were to become a knife maker and consider myself "worthy" of knowing ALL about knives, I would feel compelled to learn as much as I could about heat-treating and forging.

But, quite honestly, I think there are a LOT of worthy knife-makers who can make GOOD to GREAT knives and still not have to even get all caught up in that. Sometimes, it is easier to just design, grind, shape and build the knives from well-known quality steels made by respected steel forgers (such as Crucible) and let some other master of heat-treating do the heat-treating.

I am certain Busse does not forge their own steels, but rather has their steels forged for them. Still, I am sure Jerry is VERY knowledgeable about the forging process and how to get what he wants. I am certain he doesn't simply rely on what a forger recommends to him. With years of experience and "MAKING" thousands of knives, you can get there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
But, Jerry obviously heat-treats his steel. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> And I am certain he has "MASTERED" multiple techniques with multiple types of steel for maximum performance. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> And yet, I assure you, even Jerry would tell you there is always some way to make something better. But, better "MUST" be defined by intended use if nothing else.

I have done some of my own field testing. But, I honestly don't do tests like Noss.

I have read a bunch. But, most of what I read compares existing steels. Not about how to work with all or even some of the many types of steels to get certain end results. The book of info would probably fill all the forum pages we have typed over the last 2.5 years! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

I will have to refrain from attempting to learn that, let alone explain it. Sorry.

However, I do know that different steels are better suited for different types of hardening processes.

I assume there are MANY variables on how to perform the different heat-treatments as well.

Some steels are water, oil, salt quench hardened.

Some steels are air hardened. - in A2, the A stands for air-hardened.

If air-hardened, I don't know of a way to differentially heat treat or create a temper line/hamon.... although, it seems possible that there might be a way and some day somebody might (?????)

Hamons and temper lines go way back historically with the Samurai swords.

I think SF has done a very worthy job of outlining some of those techniques. So, for simplicity and since I have been typing a bunch today, I won't try to add too much.

The folding of the steel is not directly related to the temper or hamon. But, more to compliment the temper process and "add" another step of combining desirable end results. The folding can help in toughness and distribution of Various steel properties through the blade. Research San Mai steels and get a sufficient feel for the benefits. However, folding and San Mai is a combining of qualities. Sometimes these qualities are contrasting compromises with the intent of gaining best of both worlds. Depending on alternatives, this can and often has provided the end result being best of both worlds.

Also, INFI is VERY unique in using Nitrogen in the hardening process. The only other steel I know that uses something along this line is H1. But, considering how many different steels are used for MANY industrial uses beyond knives that I am not familiar with, I would assume there might be other options (??????).

Jerry is VERY secretive about how he creates his steel for VERY ligitimate reasons. If certain people knew how to do what Jerry does, someone would likely try to duplicate what he does.

I could mention more technical terms like Gas and liquid carburising and nitriding and on and on. While some of these terms apply to "SOME" steels hardening processes, the truth is I don't know how Jerry does a lot of things to ANY of his steels. And these terms and processes may or may not apply and many combinations and variables of the processes may very well likely be used (??????) How Jerry heat-treats and creates his steel is a mystery for a reason. I could speculate. But, I don't think it is worth my efforts to speculate too much. I don't know and I would have to write pages with half of it being disclaimers and 95% being purely speculative optional scenarios.


It is my understanding that INFI is Air hardened. So, I assume this is one of the main reasons INFI does not have a temper line. With it's use of Nitrogen and it's amazing combination of properties: extreme toughness, excellent corrosion resistance, ease of sharpening and ability to hold incredibly sharp edges, INFI currently rains KING IMO of the BEST all around steel with the best combined properties.

Are some steel more corrosion resistant? - Yes

Are some steel capable of getting and holding a sharper edge? - I think I know of a few.

Are some steels tougher? - Not sure and not that I can say definitely. The only thing close is likely SR-77. But, toughness is a factor of hardness as well. So, I think it is ONLY fair to say tough at comparable hardness levels and with the ability to actually hold a functional sharpened edge. SR-77 is tough, but INFI has better edge properties.

I am getting carried away and need to leave it at that.

I have a bunch of other things I need to get to.

.

Awesome post Knifeguy! I appreciate your insight and opinions <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Because I'm new to knife steel, posts like this have to go into my keeper folder <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Interesting stuff KG....must have taken you ages to write up....thanks for the time and effort.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Personally I think the NMFBM is not too heavy and is as balanced or better so than my FBM LE Combat Satin Finish...but weight and balance are a personal thing...the NMFBM certainly chops the best out of all of them I have tried...so if you ever want to find a Castle for that Queen let me know... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

ahhh, thats the KG i know and love.

INFI = the combination of sr101 and sr77. if you want brute toughness, go with sr77. if you want a strong knife and a bit better edge rentention, get sr101. if you want both, get infi <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> simple, right <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

for me sr77 is the ticket though.

No, THIS is Arnold in his prime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEgVM3bzN_Y

Seriously though, Arnold is the man.

Yes but California is'nt to friendly a State on guns though....suprising when you think how many millions they have made for Hollywood....maybe Arnold has'nt got the clout to turn that issue around in CA? Is he pro guns himself?

Not too sure. I do agree with you though..

But man, he has gone from some kid in Austria, to the top Body Builder in the world, followed by one of the best (ok, most well known) actors in the world as well. Now he freakin' runs a state. He ran his life pretty [censored] well.

Yes his ambition and discipline is pretty much like his physique....pretty pumped! LOL...who knows maybe the "governator" might make "presinator"... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here is a informative article on steel that you might enjoy http://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml . As many of you know I am a huge Bussekin fan but recently I have branched out and included other steel in my arsenal. One I am impressed with is S30V. Any thoughts on how you think this steel stacks up against our Busse INFI-77 and 101 ? Mostly in combat/surviavl situation is what I am reffering to. Any opinions or other greatly appreciated-Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I always thought you had to be born in the US to be president. I don't really follow politics though.

You do have to be born in the US, hence the controversy over the vetting of Obama. There's speculation that Obama was not actually born on US soil. Arnold's problem is that he was definitely born in a different country.

That is a SCARY thought <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

He'll be back!

Ya,
in syndication! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I never understood how Anrie can be a Republican gov. in the most liberal state in the US...? What gives? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

He's an old-school republican - in other words, he is a big fan of obeying the constitution and getting the government the heck out of people's lives. He's also a fiscal conservative, which is something that can't be said for most republicans in power...

Basically, he's far enough away from the bi-partisan BS that usually taints our politics that people listen to him for his ideas, and not the party he associates with. I could stand to see a bit more of that in this country.

Kinda reminds me of the number of registered democrats who were supporting ron paul, or the smaller number of republicans who were fans of mike gravel, if only because he had the guts to go up to the rest of the democratic candidates and call them out when they said something that was BS

Deception and corruption run rampant in politics <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thread RE-HIJACKED.

CA isnt the most liberal state in the union. The people of this state actually stood up and voted down gay marriage, thank God.

MA and VT are the most liberal. I have ZERO desire to go to either state. Ever.

CA, MA and VT - I think it's a close call <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sorry but I have to re-hijack and disagree with the idea that “the governator” is a conservative. Arnie is not an "old school" republican (he is not a believer in natural rights), and he certainly cares not for the Constitution, as shown by his stance on the 2nd amendment. He is married to a Kennedy and is one of the most socially liberal "republicans" out there. He is a HUGE disappointment to the conservatives in CA for his stance on social issues (he is not pro-life), he has done nothing about securing the borders, and for his stance on the 2nd Amendment. He (NOT Davis) signed the anti- .50 bill ('cus they can shoot down airplanes you know); and even worse, I heard from a local CA Police chief he recently signed on the ammo ID act set to go "live" in Dec 2010 (a law that all ammo, as in every single projectile) has to have an individual serial number that is coded and registered to the buyer. He tries to come off as tough "man's man" and claimed to be a fiscal conservative which is why the conservatives were happy about him...at first. Some who would typically vote for a dem voted for him cus Davis was an absolute idiot and because he had a Hollywood name and is socially no different than a democrat (well, maybe he is sorta kinda to the right of the dems on gay marriage). He is a turd who is married to a family of turds and I am glad he can not be prez...I care about freedom far too much.

Oh yeah, and I like SR101 the best <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's one thing to hit on money, and guns, and ish like that, but abortion?

We all have different views on politics, morals, life, whatever. We come here to relax and talk steel.

I for one, have some pretty twisted views. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

That's more like it!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Your right, didn't mean to get too over the top or spark a too far hijacked debate. My bad. I guess I just threw that in there 'cus it is typically a conservative social issue and I was trying to say more along the lines that he is not a conservative and less trying to start an abortion thing. Sorry to all if it came out wrong and thanks for the correction...and I still do prefer SR101 (ordered two S5s which is a lot for me given my current money situation:) ).

my sr77 is better than your sr101 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


JOKING, fellas!!!

You are dead on right about Arnold and SR101.

Isn't SR101 better than SR77 by 24?

Here is a video posted on youtube by JYD SHARP..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL8_OPM0-h4

SR101 is plenty strong..

Brilliant!

IM STILL WITH THE TANK OF ALL STEELS - SR77. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

enjoy your rust loving sr101 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

hehe

Lol, Recon Sr77 rusts just as bad!

I just posted it coz Sr101 is tough stuff too!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I wish I had some Sr77, or some Sr101 for that matter.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I need some. All I have is INFI and stainless.