thats very true i agree comple <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />tly

Different strokes, Yup. There is a lot of that here LOL

So true! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, never more true words spoken. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Well, bushcraft knives look the way they do for a reason, it’s got nothing to do with my personal preference. As for the scandi vs. convex grids – now that would be a personal preference. I prefer convex because the edge is better supported and it’s easier for me to maintain the edge out in the field.

I agree - a Mora is great – the best $12 you’ll ever spend, but it ain’t no Barkie or Koster, that’s for sure.

As for all Busse kin knives, well, they simply are the toughest knives out there. No questions.

Now, muks are an interesting breed. Personally I don’t understand the reason for a nessmuk except perhaps for the historic fascination. The blade has no point to speak of, the shape is almost that of a skinner, but too big, yet the blade is not really long enough for chopping. Perhaps the knife was someone’s idea of an ideal camp knife, but I just don’t see it. Maybe someone here can explain the attributes of a muk to me?


Just respectful debate, nothing more. You are right, there are many good knives on the market today. In fact, I appreciate many manufacturers out there. In the end, it’s just a tool that requires some skill.

Slicing through ribs or a really tough piece of chicken fried steak. Can you tell it is lunch time!

Gideon,

Along the lines of "Respectful" debate <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> :




I have to “respectfully” disagree with at least part of your comments about the relevance of the different choil shapes on the S5.



I VERY much disagree with that.


Good photo-sketch for comparison by the way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />:



You say:


And


And




So, I am trying to piece all of the above comments together in my mind.

On one hand, it sounds like you are saying: you don’t care for or need the S5 to offer small detail / small utility function because you always carry a smaller knife to handle those chores…. And since you don’t need the S5 for smaller utility task/chores you don’t intend to ever use the choil so you don’t care how it is shaped or where it is placed (?????? – if I am interpreting that correctly ?????)

Fine – I guess. To each his own......

*****But, nowhere did I get the sense you felt the square choil was “Better” in any way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> You just seem to imply it just doesn’t matter to you since you probably won’t use it (?????)

I guess any way I slice it, the ONLY reason I can figure that you would be O.K. with the square choil over a much ergonomically improved closer in and rounded choil is that you like the aesthetics of the square choil (???????) – Again, to each his own. I prefer Fit, Feel & Function as my first priorities still. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

------------------

******** AND quite honestly, I actually "PREFER" the aesthetics of the closer in rounded choil over the square choil anyway. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

------------------

But, even for those who would for some reason choose aesthetics over Fit, Feel & Function, I will never understand that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

For anyone who would chose aesthetics as a priority over Fit, Feel and Function:

******** That is about as sensible to me as choosing uncomfortable “Fashionable” shoes over comfortable functional shoes for hiking! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/loopy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


Also, in regards to the S5 not being a “woodcraft” blade. To some degree, I agree with you. However, in many ways I DISAGREE with you. I have an Aurora and a couple of other worthy Buschraft/Woodcraft blades. One of my favorites is actually my Canadian Special (after some slight rounding of the belly of the handle). I LOVE that knife. I agree that the “Traditional” shape of a Woodcraft/Bushcraft knife does have relevance and some advantages vs. other designs when used for “Certain” tasks. However, the S5 isn’t trying to be a Woodcraft/Bushcraft knife. And even if it isn’t, the design is STILL a design that can handle MOST if not all Bushcraft/Woodcraft tasks and quite well. While a traditional Bushcraft/Woodcraft knife might slightly excel at some tasks, in my opinion, I can also see where the S5 might excel at other tasks. So, design changes = compromises & variety. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I like the Blade shape of the S5 a LOT for MANY my uses! And I like the Mudder grips paired with the blade. I mentioned a long time ago that I would love to see that blade shape attached to micarta as well. But, I wanted the tang skeletonized to save weight and offer improved balance. I don't generally care to have overly heavy handled smaller knives. The Mudders are light in the handle and comfortable. So, a VERY worthy option! And I am VERY confident the S5 will balance VERY well in the hand... although, I would still like the skeletonized micarta version someday as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" /> ... Maybe it is coming in the "Rodent Series" in the next few years or something. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

However, whether the S5 is Bushcrafty / Woodscrafty or NOT is irrelevant to me.
I still view the S5 as a VERY worthy and functional knife. And what “IS” relevant is FIT, FEEL and FUNCTION. And for my part, I think the choil is the one thing that can definitely be improved upon over the prototype – to offer improved FF&F. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

I appreciate aesthetics and I admit that “both” aesthetics and FF&F are all subjective. But, for my part, FF&F are FIRST priority – For a user, Aesthetics are a bonus if I can get them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

For me, there is NO question that a smaller guard that brings the choil in closer and with a rounded choil vs. a square choil are BOTH relevant to a significantly improved Fit, Feel in my hand and Function in use. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

And, while you say the S5 is not a “Woodcraft” knife and imply that the choil shape, size and distance from the handle is irrelevant, I disagree with that too.
To me, it still comes down to being a USER. While you might not have any intentions to use the S5 for ANY Bushcraft chores, as a USER knife, I can't imagine not having a situation where I want to choke up into the choil from time to time. And if so, I want the choil placement, shape, design to be as ideal as possible.

I personally ALWAYS get annoyed with most any choil that is too large or too far away from the handle or doesn’t allow me to have the blades edge right close to my hand when choked up.

Sadly, my list of Busse and Kin knives with choils that I have had to modify and live with being less than ideal is longer than I like. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
And even sadder, is the number of Busse and kin knives that I have had to pass on or have had to get rid of because I did NOT like the choils. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" />

**** If done wrong, a choil is a feature that can significantly detract from a knife in many ways – IMO! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" />

I can often live with or modify a choil on 7” or larger knives enough to be
"O.K." with. But, even then, I often wish it had been done right to begin with.
However, if a 5” or smaller knife has a bad choil, it tends to be a thorn in my side when I use it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" />


While I might find a way modify or improve the square choil on the S5 to live with it - if the S5 is going to have a square choil, I am certain I would always be wishing it had been done right to begin with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

IMO, the closer the choil is to the handle, the better. IMO, the Bog Dog and SS4 WERE DONE RIGHT!!! – And about as good as they can be. I have NOT had to make modifications to those two and I LIKE how they are. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Interestingly, the MPLE has a unique small choil like I have never seen that works very well for its size and on the MPLE. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> But, I wouldn’t want that mini choil on the S5.

If I am going to have any choil at all on my knife, I want it done right – as comfortable as possible, with as little blade edge waste as possible. Otherwise, I will inevitably always notice and wish that it doesn’t fit and feel just right and wastes potential function.

The main problem with less than ideal choils is they are often hard to modify/fix to make right.

I might not like the thumb ramp on the S5 - not sure yet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> But, if I don’t, I know that removing that little ramp is a VERY easy modification to fix. Unfortunately, NOT the same for a choil. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I have mentioned I have a Bog Dog and an SS4. I actually frequently choke up on those two knives and use the choil. The Mudder grips are very conducive to choking up into the choil. But, part of that is having a choil that fits and feels right to choke up into.

The S5 will have a beafier blade than the Bog Dog. I wouldn’t be surprised if the S5’s blade is a bit longer than the Bog Dog’s blade as well. But, any way you slice it, the S5 will be a good bit smaller and lighter than the S6 and the S5 will be much more of a utility use knife (Woodscrafty or not!). As such, for my part, I want as IDEAL a choil as possible in Fit, Feel and Function. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

.

BAHHHhhhh .... there you go being negative again Bruce! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" />

I WAY prefer FF&F over "trademark features". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I would HOPE most others around here would prefer FF&F as applicable to a given knife over "trademark features" as well. - Just make the trademark features worthy and functional. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

"Marketing" shouldn't be pushing "Square" into a round hole!

"Marketing" shouldn't be trying to convince it's buyers that "style" is more important on something where FF&F are CLEARLY more important.... ie.: uncomfortable stylish shoes for hiking vs. WAY better and more appropriate comfortable and appropriately designed and built shoes.

If "Marketing" wins out over FF&F, then either Busse and kin hope we are all Lemmings or we ARE all Lemmings. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" />

Either way, I will "TRY" not to be a Lemming and would hope for support in NOT being a group of Lemmings.


In regards to "instant recognition", how is the SS4 recognized???? Scrap Muk... MPLE.... Yard Keeper.....????? Even NONE of the DM series of knives have a ramp or a square choil!!!... although, I personally didn't care for the guard/choil combination. - sorry.

The SS4 has a well designed functional choil and is considered one of the BEST Scrap Yard knives of all time by many. Yes some chose the DF/DFLE and some chose the S6 (and 1 chooses the DMCG <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />), but those are all significantly different in size. If size is relevant, I think right now the SS4 easily wins the sub-5.5" catagory.




Well... AGAIN, I will mention: "I" prefer the aesthetics of the smaller guard with the rounded choil!!!!

I can only hope my views on aesthetics and FF&F are relavent. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

And I think it should be noted that APPARENTLY the LARGE majority here ALSO prefer the smaller guard with rounded choil.

Regardless if reasons for such a large preference are based on FF&F vs. aesthetics and possibly both (like me), I think such a large biase should be considered and hold value for "Sales and marketing". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I can appreciate "part" of the purpose of "Sales and Marketing" to be to create desire/demand for a given product or feature. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> - I say this with a significant knowledge and history in sales.

But, in the end, a "COMPANY" should be more concerned about what its customers "want" and the "Company" should be open to listening <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> - I say this with having a significant history in management and business ownership.


.....Especially considering a business that has a significant number of their customers providing their feedback on a "FORUM".

Granted, there isn't always a consensus around here about what everybody wants.

But, in THIS case, out of all of the comments I have read/noticed that mention anything about the choil, I think I have probably seen about 90% - 95% mention they would rather see a smaller rounded choil.

With NOBODY saying they actually prefer the FF&F potential of the large square choil.

Some like the looks - if they choose that over FF&F, I am sorry to hear. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

And a couple seem indifferent - will buy it either way. But, those people "might" prefer improved FF&F if given the option.

I just think many (probably right <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ) assume that it is what it is and it will be what it will be. Dan has showed us a proto. We might NOT have much hope for it to change. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I really don't know.

But, it might be worth pointing out (?????), The Swamp Rat new line protos were posted and once released, MANY of those had significant changes.

Similar, Jerry sometimes posts concept pics of some Busse knives and makes changes prior to releasing.... so, you never know.



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