Well, Art, I did find this - describing S3V..So, you could make comparisons knowing that on paper at least, S9V is stronger than (greater wear resistance) and about 75% as tough S3V. I took this excerpt from the Crucible site where they are talking about S3V steel...I think S3V and S9V are both excellent steels...I doubt however, that we will see them here because of their high prices.


"The combination of wear resistance and toughness
offered by CPM 3V make it an excellent alternative to
shock-resistant grades such as S7 or A9 in applications
where they wear out too quickly. Or, it can replace wear resistant
grades such as A2, D2, Cru-Wear, or CPM M4
in applications where they tend to fail by impact, i.e.
chipping or breaking. CPM 3V offers the highest impact
toughness of any tool steel with this range of wear resistance."

KS,

Probably my mistake about edge holding and wear resistance.

I think I may have mis-understood and forgot some info I read about 9V and missed the wear resistance chart info.

I got hung up on the HRC recommended range of around 54HRC which is VERY low for a knife.

Which to me, makes 9V a bit of a strange material. Interesting to have "THAT" high wear resistance at that LOW of a recommended hardness... ??????????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />



I have to concede, I don't know much about 9V. But, I have researched it "some", and what I DO see is that pretty much NOBODY uses it for knife steel. - Why?

One possible reason: NOBODY wants to try to grind on it and sharpen it.


I guess I don't really understand why 9V has such high wear resistance at 54 HRC. My guess is the VERY high Vanadium content. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

But, part of why 9V might be so tough might likely be it's low hardness (????)

I am pretty confident, S7 is tougher (in part) because of it's lower hardness.

I "assume" the recommended hardness ranges for the steels might somewhat imply that 9V doesn't do well at 60HRC, but I don't know for sure.

Considering how similar 9V is to 10V, I am very curious to why the recommended HRC for 9V is so low at 54 vs. 60HRC for 10V.
Can 9V be hardened to more "common" knife hardness ranges like 10V?
If so, what is 9V like at 58-60HRC?

If 9V were hardened to 60HRC like 10V, I "Assume" the 9V would not be as tough anymore and further assume 10V might be more comparable in toughness. But, I can't find data to support this.

However, typically, lower HRC equates to higher toughness and higher HRC equates to more brittle.

Further, if you compare the composition of 9V to 10V they are pretty similar except for the higher carbon content of 10V.

If comparing 9V to 10V on the graph on wear resistance, 10V is off the charts, but at 60HRC vs. 54HRC of 9V. If 9V were hardened more inline with 10V, I am assuming 9V's wear resistance would even be that much higher and pretty close to 10V.

My guess is that both 9V and 10V have amazing properties, but properties that are just beyond what most people can or want to deal with for maintaining, sharpening and similar. (??????)
Similarly, the knife industry doesn't use Tungsten Carbide or Titanium Carbide for knives. Stellite is fairly rare.

I have read more about 10V than 9V.

I have read about Phil Wilson using 10V and it apparently can get and hold one of the most amazing edges on a knife you can get. I assume Phil uses the recommended 60 HRC hardness range or similar.
But, it is apparently a Nightmare to sharpen and grind.
Still, with diamonds, most steels can eventually be sharpened. Just might take a LOT more time and effort and cost more in sharpening supplies.

So, cost of owning and using such steels for knives could get up there to.


But, I don't know what 9V would really be like for knife use at 54HRC. And since I can't find any info about anybody making knives out of 9V, does anybody really know what a knife would be like in 9V?????


.

I assume you are referring to "M4" compared to D2 (?????)


If so, yeah, but D2 is not really looked at as a high impact steel for choppers these days. Sure, someone like Busse can give it a good heat treat to make it "pretty tough", but considering how many cheap and reasonable GREAT options there are for choppers, D2 and M4 are not typically viewed to have high toughness.

A2 is about where chopper toughness "starts" these days.

So, yeah, I think I indicated that M4 might be sufficient in certain applications for chopping. But, it looks like it might be borderline - at least based on what we are used to.

A2 is pretty tough, but I am pretty sure 52100, 5160, 1095, 0170-6 and MANY other simple much cheaper steels are a lot tougher.

So, while M4 might offer amazing edge properties - at the cost of materials and efforts to grind and sharpen, the cost isn't such a great value if primarily looking for toughness - or a larger chopping blade.
While M4 might offer "enough" toughness in most aplications and is pretty tough, it just starts to get more on the gamble side. Especially for a company like Busse that offers a Lifetime Warranty on their knives.
If I were Busse offering such a warranty, I would not be looking to make a "big chopper" that intices people to push it to the limits out of a VERY expensive steel that might not be able to handle certain abuses.

Whereas, for "Competition Use", again, I think those guys would likely gamble on toughness and go with "Just enough" toughness in favor of HIGH edge retention and VERY sharp edges. And they are willing to pay the cost of the materials and hassles to get the extra "edge".

Competition rope and 2x4's are not as tough as cinder blocks and what some people beat on around here.

.

Ha! Dangerous territory. Almost like saying cinder block chopping is encouraged.
If I'm beating on anything other than wood, I'm not expecting a refund when my knife breaks.

I appreciate the posts, KG. Often one can get lost with all the info that is out there. It's good to know you've covered almost all the angles when thinking of what steel to use for a knife. My hope was a post indicating the pro's and con's so that anyone lurking might get a bigger picture. With all the talk of the "super steels" one can't help but wonder. I have also heard of some new tech for knife sharpening. I think that will play a role as well in the near future.

Well, I tend to generally have the same frame of mind. I consider cinder block chopping to be abuse.

But, the Busse crew has literally posted pics of their knives doing such. And then posted pics of knives in mighty impressive condition after the workouts.
And I have never seen any Busse post claiming cinder block chopping to be a way to void the warranyt. So, I am quite confident it does NOT void the warranty.

The mentallity around the three forums actually almost "does" seem to encourage such abuse. I still don't do it, but I can't say that I mind seeing other people beat the snot out of their knives. At the very least, I think it actually helps sell even more Busse and kin knives. I am sure I am not alone in being THAT much more confident in my purchases from Busse and kin. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" />

I think some people have some mis-conceptions that the edges can tolerate such abuse. Even Busse edges get dull from certain beatings. But, the blade integrity seems very capable of being WAILED on. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> As long as people understand, minor chipping, rolling and denting of edges is to be expected, I think we are all good around here.

But, I don't beat on such things because I don't find enough gratification in it to have to re-grind my edges back from the abuse...... To each their own.





I try to keep it all in straight, but my memory isn't the greatest anymore. I get some things mixed up from time to time. That 54 HRC on the 9V is still a bit out of the norm and makes comparisons quite different. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
It is not very "apples to apples" with such disparity in hardness.




I try. But, there are a LOT of different angles and perspectives, - different intended uses, etc.



I am not sure what new tech you are referring to, but if someone would supply me with a lifetime supply of "free" diamond grit coated sharpening belts, I guess I am good with all the Super steels they can bring.

--------------


On a side note - tangent off that thought: in my recent mods to my S5 and RMD, I pulled out my old Delta 4"X36" benchtop belt sander and REALLY like how it performed. I like it WAY better than my 1"x30" that I have been using on my knives for a few years now.

I have like a 50 or 80 grit belt on it and it just flies through steel compared to typical 120, 150 and 220 grit belts I use on my 1x30. = Better have a feel for what you are doing. Faster work can equal fast mistakes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But, not only was it way faster, but WAY smoother and better as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

The 4"x36" has a large fixed platen, but a small area between the wheel and platen to get a "bit" of convex. But, I have been looking at the machine and I think I can modify the platen to give me a LOT more convex area and still maintain some flat platen area.

The flat platen area grinds flats WAY better than my 1"x30". I can't really get flat grinds on it at all. But, the larger grinder did VERY well.

I had been holding off on buying belts for my 1X30 because I wanted to upgrade to a 1x42 better machine.

Now that I have used the 4x36, I don't think I can settle for less than 2" wide. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> And the 4" width was VERY nice to work on. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

There are MANY reasons why I liked the larger sander. I am looking forward to getting some different grit belts to see what I can do with it.

Hopefully, I can get back to grinding some more tomorrow and finish up my S5 and RMD. I am hoping to get finished pics up soon. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

.

I suppose it is a fair notable exception. But, there have been quite a few critics of the Outcast. And I am not sure why Kershaw went with D2 for that blade. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> - Semi-small machete.

There is not much doubt in my mind that many of the simple carbon tough steel would have provided a better combination of toughness WITH edge retention than they achieved with the D2.

I am pretty sure 52100, 5160, 1095, 0170-6 would have all been better.

There are some other more stainless choices that would have probably been better to. I am not 100% certain, but if the reason for D2 was to maintain more stainless, I am pretty sure Bohler's N685 would have been better as well. Maybe even N690. Probably others as well.

.

Nice, would love to see those modded S5 pics.

I've got an outcast and like it a lot

Bob Dozier does very well with D2 although he doesn't really make any choppers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I handled an Outcast at a gun show once and while the handle had good ergos like most of Ken Onions designs, I was also not a fan of the grip material and how the grip was made.

Aside from that, I will assume that based on certain people having used them Kershaw managed to get good results out of the D2.

I have seen Swamp Rat D2 take some pretty sever abuse. So, there might be a trick to getting D2 to provide toughness.

But, I still have to wonder if D2 can offer as good an all-round package of the level of toughness needed for that size a blade AND provide good edge quality compared to the simple cheaper carbon steels.