I wanted to post some info on a new thread that was getting lost on another thread.


I edited out some grunt stuff.....


-----------------



I LOVE a good sharp well profiled convex edge from the factory!!!

In regards to "stropping" on cardboard. For hair shaving sharp, stropping is the key. I use a belt sander for mainly getting the profile set. Then depending on the knife, I might do a number of different methods to finish the edge - including stropping to get hair shaving sharp.

Most factory knives including Busse and kin come with a "functional" cutting edge. But, most any edge can be improved with a good profile and stropping.

When profiling an edge, you need to keep in mind what you are using the knife for. If it is going to be used for heavy chopping and such, the angle needs to be more obtuse to help prevent edge chipping or easy edge rolling.
If the knife is only for cutting, you can take the profile a little narrower. Different types of steel and different levels of steel hardness handle abilities for narrow profiles differently as well - So, often knowledge of steel AND experimenting is required.

If the knife is for chopping, I don't feel it is worth the time and effort for much stropping. But, if you have a good smaller task/chore knife that you use primarily for cutting tasks, a stropped edge to hair popping sharp is an addictive joy.

I typically profile with my knives with the belt sander and about 220 grit belts. I have been wanting to get other grits and a leather belt for my sander, but I have been wanting to upgrade my sander and my upgrade will be to different sized belts - so I haven't wanted to spend the money on belts until I get a new belt sander. However, for now, I have been doing pretty darn good with 220 grit on my 1"x30" sander followed by stropping with compound on a leather strop. And then I final strop on med. coarse paper such as cardboard or similar.

I have a couple of differet "bar" type compounds that work VERY well and surprisinbly fast.

But, to answer the question about cardboard: Yes, Cardboard is Excellent for that final touch. Cardboard or similar rough paper like grocery bag paper or semi-rough post cards, magazine insert cards, some sheet paper or envelopes even if no seem in the way - all work at removing the final little micro burrs on an edge. Stropping with these materials can take the final step from draw cutting paper pretty well to push cutting paper really well!

But, you have to have a "GOOD" edge to begin with. Stropping a bad edge on cardboard isn't going to buy you much.
You can't get an edge profiled or fix a lot of edge work with cardboard. You have to have a pretty good edge already and use cardboard as "Touch up".

Since the Grunt already comes from the factory with a good edge, I am sure Ken Warner is only referring to maintaining the factory edge with touch up stropping on cardboard. From time to time, you will probably need to do some more tweaking on the edge with more agressive belts.

There is a "catch" with convex edges: good convex edges are not "really" compatible with stones and most of the sharpening "jigs" on the market.
Conversely, flat edges are not "really" very compatible with strops (for most people).
But, personally, I am a huge advocate of convex edges. I could write a lot more about convex edges and what I consider advantages, but I would probably double or triple this post and I don't have time for that.

Bottom line: Flat angled blade edges can and do cut well. But, IMO, a good convexed edge is a smoother cutting tool. Full convex blades are my favorite. But, a good convex edge on a flat grind is a reasonably close second.

Spyderco makes some of the best factory sharp edges I have seen and they are flat. The jig Spyderco sells also makes flat edges. So, if you want flat edges, get a good jig because it is hard to maintain flat by hand. At some point, if you sharpen by hand on stones, you start to convex the edge anyway. But, again, a stone is not ideal for convexed edges. So, if you are going to have convexed edges, figure out how to do it best.

Once you figure out how to do it and have a few basic tools for setting and touching up profiles and some stropping tools, I find it much easier and faster than stones and stone type jigs. But, this may just be a personal preference.

For the record, a cheap 1"x30" belt grinder and a handfull of belts, including a leather strop belt or flat leather strop and some compounds can "EASILY" cost less than a "decent" sharpening jig and "decent" stones. Good quality water stones are VERY expensive! You can have a NICE belt sander like a Kalamazoo by the time you pay for good water stones.


Instead of me writing a bunch of thoughts on sharpening, I recommend doing some research especially on Knifeforums, but also Bladeforums.

Here is a good start:

Sharpening My Way - by Jerry Hossom



.

2nd post carried over from the other thread:


---------------


itxploded,

The main reason Ken probably recommends "wet/dry" paper is because of the finer grits available. At a typical hardware store, you will usually only find sandpaper for woodworking - usually: 80, 100, 150, 220, 320, 400 or so.

At "Auto Parts" stores, they sell wet/dry paper - meaning it can be used wet or dry. It is often sold in very fine grits because auto paint refinishing and touch up requires much finer grits than woodworking. Paint touch up and refinishing is usually done with "Wet" sanding for smoother and finer results.

Wet/dry paper comes in 600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000 and sometimes you can find 2500 grit sandpaper.

*But, these finer grit sandpapers from the auto parts stores tend to be many times more expensive than woodworking sandpaper from the hardware stores.

For the record, you can accomplish a LOT with 220, 320 and 440 grit sandpaper on knives.

For knives, you don't need to "wet" the paper regardless of what paper you use. The "wetting" is usually done if polishing paint, lacquer or similar. I don't think wetting the paper buys you anything with steel.


Stropping with "compounds" on leather is MUCH cheaper in the long run that buying the fine 600 - 2500 grit paper at auto parts stores.

*** Compounds on leather strop (IMO) is also much BETTER than fine grit sandpaper.

A small package of 5 "half" sheets of fine paper costs about $3.00 - $5.00. But, "worse" - the fine grit papers don't last very long. So, they can get expensive fast.

You don't really need to use so many different grits.

I didn't finish in my earlier long post (got side-tracked), but I do a lot of profiling with 220 grit on my belt sander and have had GREAT success just using two different compounds on strop followed by final touch up strop on med. coarse types of paper (similar to cardboard). Hairs will pop.


If doing it all by hand, I would think 220, 320, 400 followed by 1-2 different compounds on strop followed by final touch up on cardboard or similar would result in outstanding edges well beyond what most people achieve with stones.

Most people who use stones don't have a sufficient variety of good stones for good results. The good fine grit water stones are very expensive. I have much easier, faster and better luck than when I have tried stones.

I use the green and black compounds I bought from DLT: Compounds @ DLT

The white is very fine. I haven't used it, but I don't know that I need it either.

The green is the best IMO. It is finer than the black. If just maintaining a good edge, green is probably going to be used most often. But, if using 220 belts or paper, I follow with black prior to green.

Cardboard (or similar paper) after green has been VERY good.

A lot of people use the white on leather on a belt sander after 220 if only power stropping.


This video has been posted a bunch, but it is good to watch: Quick & easy knife sharpening - J. Neilson

Best tip for most common error I have seen: don't roll up on the tip of the edge too much when drawing the blade across a strop.

*** Again, said many times, but anybody going down the road to a belt sander needs to "PRACTICE" on cheap blades for a good while before going to a good blade.

If not careful, a belt sander can heat up the blade too much and hurt the temper. But, also, the belts "can" remove material VERY fast on edges. If not careful, you can not only re-profile your edges, but also reshape the entire blade - without experience, that can get ugly and bad very fast. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

For hand sharpening, I haven't tried this yet, but keep reading great stuff about the supplies from Hand American. Hand American is selling their stuff here: Hand American Products @ Japanese Knife Sharpening

Those little bottles of wet or dry compound are easier to apply than the stick compounds. There are lots of tips and tricks about using the different types, but you don't need much. It should never be clumpy. Light and thin.

I am not so sure about the thin films on glass. I think those are best for razors and very thin edged kitchen knives. I don't think they will work right for convexed outdoors knives - too flat. But, the compound on leather should be very good. I keep reading good things about the horse-hide being great for final strop without compound.

Here is a thread about the Hand American "Scary Sharp kit": Scary Sharp System
*** Keep in mind a lot of the discussion is about kitchen knives. Field knives typically need a little thicker and more obtuse edges than kitchen knives. But, some of the principle info about sharpening, stropping and that kit is still good.

Side note: This stuff should be good for carbon blade protection along with treating fuzzy micarta and cutting boards: Boardwax w Mineral Oil

.... I still like RenWax, but some people like mineral oil.

Again, in regards to belt sanding, power stropping, hand stropping, etc. I recommend doing some research. For this subject, I have found Knifeforums to have a little bit more and better info than Bladeforums.

Also, use a "Google" advanced search. Knifeforums search engine SUCKS! Just go to Google, click advanced. At the bottom, put in a "specific web-site" such as knifeforums.com , then put in your key words at the top such as: strop, stropping, compound, or similar.

Bravo KG.
Thanks for the thread, I too love a convex grind, I even put one on my Spyderco E4W and it is very sharp. You can convert a knife with a flat ground edge into a convex grind very easily.

this thread should be a sticky.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
VERY informative for the people who want to know how to sharpen their scrapyards or learn convex sharpening.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the smileys EMF...

I didn't do it on purpose...
I don't know why I do it though!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
some knives just re-grind easily!
and then... convexing is fun...
if not...
!!!!

Thanks KG...funny you should mention this the very day my Kalamazoo 1x42 arrived AND I had just printed out the thread by Jerry Hossom. I'm going to take the plunge.

I had (have) concerns about over heating and drawing out the temper and also about the angle of the blade, or I should say edge to the belt. On the straight edge, (choil to beginning of belly) it appears fairly simple, but from the beginning of the belly around to the tip seems a little tricky. As I understand it the handle must be raised as you approach the tip or did I mis-read that? In as much as the blade geometry changes as you approach the tip, (i.e. wider toward the spine) it would seem that some correction is needed in the angle of attack from belly to tip. Is it correct to raise the handle as I described?

Thanks again for all the good stuff!

Cool Irony. I wish I had a Kalamazoo delivered .......... a few years ago <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Oh well, sometimes using the cheap stuff helps you appreciate the good stuff when you get it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> - Now all I want is a variable speed KMG or Bader. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

----------------------

*** Keep in mind guys, I am trying to help with this info, but I am sharing some things based on what "appears" to be the case in my limited experience. I have been tinkering with my cheapo belt sander for a few years now and I am getting the feel for it. But, I am night a professional knife-maker. I just do lots of modifications for my own personal use.

For the best advice, guys like Jerry Hossom are VERY knowledgable with many years of experience and he does well in trying to help others.

Vic and I are both self pro-claimed "hacks". But, I am sure Vic can jump in here and offer some advice as well.


While on the subjuct of advice:

- Use a mask and eye protection!

------------------

If I understand what you are saying and asking and assuming the belt rotation is down where you contact, the yes, you would want to be lifting up on the handle as you go around the belly to the tip.

From my experience, I don't know that you have to have an exact perpendicular angle to the blade, but close is better. What is more important is to have the same consistant motion. When you move the blade around the belt, it is not the end of the world to have an angle or two difference in one part of the blade vs. the other. But, if your movement of the blade around the belt is inconsistant, you will end up with an edge that is visibly not smooth or consistant. It can be made functional. But, the more times you go around trying to equalize the looks and angle of the blade, the more blade edge you will eat up.

AGAIN, you REALLY need to practice on some cheap blade. And ideally practice on a blade size and geometry similar to what you want to sharpen. So, a 3.0" semi-wharnecliffe can be very easy, but also very different from a 5" with lots of belly or a 10" recurve or whatever.

I have generally found the larger blades harder as they require more movement and more ability to stay consistant in your movement over a longer blade. Make sure you have room to move. I have also found that practicing a couple of "dry" movement passes without contact on the belt can help prepare for a fluid consistant movement. - Kind of like a basketball player warming up for a free throw without the ball - ever watch Steve Nash before he shoots a free throw - he practices the motion.

To keep from heating the blade too much - a few tips:

1) The thin edges heat up faster than thick spines. So, especially when sharpening, keep a steady movement and dunk in water after each pass.

2) New fresh belts cut cleaner and faster and seem to generate less heat than older worn belts. (* But, older belts can still have a lot of value.)

3) I am not sure, but it seems to me that coarser grits generate less heat than finer grits (????).

Good luck - practice on cheap blades first!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

I am digging up some of my older posts - much faster than typing more stuff. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Post from #162096 - Sat Jan 12 2008 02:14 AM http://www.scrapyardknives.com/ubbthread...true#Post162096


----------------------


I talked a buddy of mine into getting a VERY fine 1"x42 Delta belt sander that he received a couple of days ago. I just tinkered with it for a few minutes tonight - just starting to show him what his new sweet tool can do. I LOVE his new belt sander WAY more than my old 1"x30".

He doesn't collect knives, but I turned him onto home tinkering and wood-working projects a few years ago. He is finally catching up to me on his tool collection (even passing me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />). He won't need to borrow too many tools now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

But, check this sweet deal out: Delts 1"x42"

FREE Shipping!!!


At $129.00, most might consider it expensive, but once you get one, start using it, get a good selection of belts and get good with it, you realize it is money WELL spent! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


Here is an email I just sent to him with some good info:


Lee Valley Belts


I would probably pick up a variety pack at Lowes or Home Depot. The chain stores will usually have a variety pack with 3 grits that are good for "General" wood use and moderate metal removal. I think: 80, 120, 220 (???) or close.

If it were me, I would be getting the variety pack and grits you can get locally. It won't save you much, but maybe $0.25 - $0.75 or so per belt.

Then "I" would pick up one of each other grit from Lee Valley. - "I" would be picking up 3 leather belts, but for me they would be for putting razor edges on knives.

I have 2 strop compounds to put on leather belts. The 3rd belt would be left dry.
If you have an interest in VERY sharp blades, get at least one or two leather belts and some of this strop compound: BRKT Strop Compounds @ DLT



40 is VERY coarse and for VERY fast material removal. 80 is still very coarse. 40 - 150 are more for shaping than sanding.

220 starts to polish, but will still shape some. 320 will start to put a satin polish, but at belt sander speeds, it can still shape some.

The leather belts loaded with strop compound really start to put a mirror polish edge.

The tricks with belts on knife edges is to 1st practice a lot on CHEAP steel.

2nd through 7th, etc.:

2) Get a feel for different grits,

3) Proper and different angles,

4) Proper pressure for different steels, angles, materials, etc.,

5) Movement of blade across belt and

6) Feel for heat buildup. *** Don't over-heat blades especially at the edge. The edges will heat faster

7) Use of platen for flat grinds and use of slack belt (no platen) for convex grinds


*** Don't take a "good" or expensive knife out and grind on it to you get a feel for the things above.



With proper belts and grits, "Good" knives can be made to split hairs (Literally)

See: INFI splitting hairs


Alton Brown is actually pretty well respected in the Knife Industry and goes to some of the large knife shows.
This video (Good Eats / Alton Brown) - Alton has some pretty good general advice. - Although, there is more, this is a good start <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Alton has someone sharpen his knives and discusses

Here is a good starter for knife sharpening: J. Neilson sharpening with Belts - J. Neilson is a fairly respected custom knife maker. He uses 220 grit. Most people use a little finer prior to leather with compound, but as he says, he wants the edge a little "Toothy". "Toothy" would be like "Micro" serrations. They work well for slicing motions (think mini hack-saw). Some material cuts better with slicing motions. Sometimes a fine smooth edge is better - depends.


I don't recommend this following technique, as it is hard to get a decent edge and a little dangerous, but kind-of cool: Sharpening the hard way - Lots of Skill, but bad edge still <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


After you get the the right belts and the hang of it, you won't want sharpening stones. And you will want to sharpen everything <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



---------

Oh yeah, that belts sander is great for wood stuff too!!




--------------------------------------


Post from same thread: #162097 - Sat Jan 12 2008 02:28 AM



Invest in a good belt sander, some good belts including at least one or two leather belts and some strop compounds. See above! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />
Even one of the cheap $40 - $45 1"x30" belt sanders like Vic, J33ps, myself and a BUNCH of other guys have will get a lot of work done. But, that 42 incher sure is SWEET!


Either way, you will be VERY glad! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Go straight to a good system and skip over all the hassles of all the other stuff - stones, oil, water, Lansky, Sharpmaker, etc.

Some of these can get the job done, but a belt system is fast and VERY good if you know how.

Or, I could sell you my EZE sharpening system ( EZE Sharp Also see: Ian's EZE Sharpening Thread at Swamp Rat forum ). The EZE Sharp system seems to be the best large stone fixed angle system you can buy. ..... But, I would much rather use my belt sander! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.



.

*** Don't use Benchtop "Grinders" with stone type wheels. They turn at WAY high speeds and generate WAY too much heat. They will trash knife blades almost instantly.

See: Question about a Bench Grinder

Here is a crazy long post <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> - mostly about stripping blades, but with some info and pics of some of the nice knife making/grinding/sharpening tools:


From: #147498 - Mon Nov 19 2007 03:28 PM Stripping the coating


-------------------------


In regards to stripping your blade:

Removing the coating is VERY easy if you use a chemical stripper. There are quite a few brands that will do the job.

I use a gel type from Jasco. You can find a chemical stripper just about anywhere they sell paint: Home Depot, Lowes, Sears, Wal-Mart....

I just use a cheap hobby brush and brush the gel on thick, let sit for about 10-15 minutes till it bubbles and scrape off with a putty knife. Very easy.

If a couple of spots don't come off, put some more stripper on for a few more minutes.

I actually just wash my brush and re-use the brush. If you just brush on what you need, a quart of stripper will probably strip 40 - 60 knives or so (????).


There are lots of posts here, on Swamp Rat Forum, Bladeforums and similar that go into more detail.

So, instead of me retyping a lot of the little details:


See:


Stripping My Howler - Pics of process


Bladeforums - What is the best way to strip Crinkle Coating?


Bladeforums - How does a stripped Swamp Rat knife do?


------

Vic had a nice post: Tutorial: Stripping & Polishing Pics

......... But, the pics are gone.


The above posts should give you enough info to get you through the simple stripping process and into sanding.


*** But, you should know that as I keep saying: stripping the coating is the easy part - However, Satin finishing the blade is MUCH more time consuming.

"HARD" is a subjective term. With some practice, I could say it isn't terribly hard, but still time consuming.

The key word I see in your post is: by "Hand"

Are you planning to sand the blade to a nice satin finish literally by hand with sandpaper?

If so, you are talking about many hours of work.

If you think you will strip multiple knives and/or if you do other home projects AND if you are pretty good with hand tools and safety conscious:

Then, I highly recommend ("Considering") investing in a 1"x30" belt sander.
A belt sander is WAY faster than sanding by hand.

Harbor Freight sells this for $29.99



See: Harbor Freight - Belt Sander

Home Depot, Lowes and Sears usually seem to have a Delta brand or similar for close to $40 - $50.


----------------------------

*** Sanding on sharp knives can be dangerous! Sanding a sharp knife on a fast rotating belt can be more dangerous!


----------------------------


Most knife makers basically use belt sanders to make knives. But, they do most of the work prior to sharpening the blade and sharpen last!

For the record, most professional knife-makers have much better suited belt-sanders with specialized shaped and sized wheels.

But, the 1"x30" sanders can do a LOT and are MUCH cheaper than the professional 2"x48" or 2"x72" models costing $500 to well over $1000.

----------

However, for the fun of it, here are some of the toys the Pros get to play with (maybe someday......):

KMG1 with custom mods (KMG stands for Knife Makers Grinder)





















See full link: Caffreyknives.net - KMG with mods


Some people use Bader: Bader grinders

Burr King and many other custom grinders.

Here is a pretty cool "Rotary Platen attachment":

See: BeaumontMetalworks.com - rotary platen

Many of these grinders have variable speed.


------------------------


Here are just a couple of links from YouTube that are pretty good:


Blade Grinding on a Burr King

These don't have much to do with knives, but show the KMG grinding and a few tricks (appears to be making a bike frame or something):


KMG - Belt Grinder Demo part 1

KMG - Belt Grinder Demo part 2


------------------------------

******************************

**** This following video may be a great help to some:

Knife Sharpening with a Belt sander by J. Neilson



This video gives some good tips for final blade satin finishes:

Cleaning up the hand-rubbed finish on a blade - J. Neilson


----------

However, back to belt sanders, regardless of type of belt sander, it takes some practice!!!

Your first few attempts will likely not be very pretty. I am not just saying this. Many knife-makers have suggested people practice on cheap pieces of steel first to get a feel for using a belt sander.


*** Also, don't over-heat the blades. You can mess up the heat treatment - temper.



----------------

Vic had a potentially good suggestion in his Tutorial post in the above link.
...... Assuming you really want a high quality finish down to the little details....

Vic mentions drilling out the rivets.

I have never tried it because I didn't know of a good solution for putting rivets back. I still don't have the details worked out, but I am piecing together how this might be accomplished.

I feel (personally) it would be too big a hassle to send the knife back to Busse to have the scales riveted back on my knife.

And I don't feel it would be worth the effort and hassle for a knife with Res-C handles. At least the Res-C handles have a flat square edge at the ricasso which you can sand up to by hande and get reasonably close.

However, some of the Busse knives have very intricate shapes around the ricasso areas and sometimes at the pommel that would be VERY hard to make look decent unless you remove the scales.

I found a post on bladeforums showing a die/punch used to flare the rivets in a bench vice. I am not sure of the proper type of rivets, but the guy who owned the die/punches said he found some titanium tubing (of the proper dieameter) at a hobby shop that he cut to length and then flared with his die/punches.



[img]http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j183/DWRW/Die-PunchesforBusseRivets.jpg[/img]


[img]http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j183/DWRW/Die-PunchesforBusseRivetsbeingpress.jpg[/img]





----------------





Instead of me typing a bunch more, I am copying and pasting some posts from some older threads:



---------------

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmmm. Maybe Vic should start a penetrator tipping service. Given the number of penetrator tips he's put on his own knives, he should be an expert at it by now. Watcha think, Horn Dog?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I could. It takes longer to unpack and repack the knives than it does to do a little penetrator tip. Its much easier than putting a polished edge on.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Vic is right. The penetrator tip is a very easy and very fast modification (if you have a belt sander). It would literally take longer to pack the knife back up.

By the time you paid for Priority shipping at about $7 - $9 each way for one knife, you could have paid about 30%-50% towards your own belt sander!

You guys out there who haven't yet picked up a belt sander need to head down to your local hardware store and get one. - Or look up Harbor Freight or similar online.

These little 1"x30" belt sanders are not fancy or expensive tools, but they can do a lot! I think I got mine for about $40.00 or so. Belts are usually about $1.50 - $5.00 depending on grit and type. Most of my local stores only carry about 80, 120 and 150 grits. These grits will do a lot of "general" type grinding and yard tool worthy sharpening.
But, fine quality sharpening and polishing will require much finer grits and belts. There are a few good places online for this such as:

Lee Valley



These sanders are great for customizing and/or sharpening knives (and you will need the right belts for sharpening good knives! ). But, I use mine VERY often just for sharpening yard tools and for many other projects around the house.

Dremels are toys by comparison and Dremels cost a lot more. Dremels are good for "Little" tasks. But, they just don't really handle bigger tasks worth a flip. And rotary tools are hard to work with sometimes to get flat, even, mirror or consistant results. The belt sander is MUCH better for almost any knife or tool modification or sharpening - unless on very small parts on a folder or similar - then Dremel.

Belt Sanders at about $40 - $60 are WELL worth the cheap cost! (to me)

However, if you read many of the "How To" threads over on Bladeforums and Knifeforums, they will usually tell you to practice on some cheap knives first to get the feel for it. I will strongly concure with this as I am sure Vic will as well.
This is not a complicated tool to use by any means, but it does have a learning curve for feel and touch - when you want a nice looking finish.

A penetrator tip really is a very easy modification even without much experience... although, I would still recommend a few minutes of practice on something cheap. Be careful not to over grind the tip as you will mess up your point. And make sure the angles are what you want and mirrored (duplicated in reverse on opposite side). Other than that, pretty simple.

Reprofiling isn't too difficult. But, without some practice, you can end up with some ugly results. It does take a little practice to get the angles right and movement of the knife across the belt smoothly and evenly. After you get the hang of it, it is reasonably easy.

There are other more complicated things to grind on a knife. Grinding the flat areas of a CG knife to get rid of pits, but not mess up the shape of the knife and not damage the handle is a lot trickier than a penetrator tip.

It is good to know the limitations of a belt sander too. They can contour some handles, but that takes a fair amount of practice with a belt and belts are hard to get to make certain contours. Sometimes other tools are needed.


This link has some good belt-sanding/grinding tips: Grinder Tips

I like the last one.


But, I can add a few:

- Wear eye protection

- Don't let the blades get too hot (* I don't personally let my blades get so hot I can't hold them at their hottest spots)

- Watch out for the static build-up! - I have to ground myself as I have very strong and jumpy reflexes - which is not good with a fast rotating tool and a sharp blade! Most of the time I don't have any problems. I guess certain types of weather might influence static more (????). I mention this as better to be prepared than sorry. Again, most of the time, it is not a problem. But, every now and then you might build up some static and get a light to a good shock. I generally get zapped from the metal parts of the sander like the work-top. Being shocked is my least favorite part of this tool. Luckily, it isn't a constant problem. But, somedays when you aren't expecting it....

- Learn how to use the platten for flat grinds - a slack belt will not do a flat grind. I like a lot of parts of knives convexed. But, some things are better flat!

- Listen for popping noises. - Usually means something is wrong with your belt. Turn the grinder off. A slightly damaged belt will often pop very quickly after. A belt popping in your face is very unsettling. A belt popping when you have a sharp blade on it is worse. Platten grinding is noticable rougher on belts.

- Don't breath the dust! It is my understanding that certain woods are toxic and micarta is very unhealthy to toxic. I try to wear a mask. I hate masks, but I hate how my lungs feel after it is filled with crap even more. If the weather is nice, set up your grinder outside and hook up a fan. .... Unfortunately, Vic and I have bad Mosquitos!!! Little Bastards! I hate Houston's humidity, but the mosquitos are even more annoying to me. - Fix those two things and Houston is decent enough. - except I would prefer to have some nice mountains in the scenery and near enough to play in. (sorry - tangents).

- Belt grinders make a mess.... just so you know.


I am sure there are other good tips, but I don't want to make this sound to intimidating or complicating. These belt grinders aren't much more complicated to use than a drill or power saw. I would say it is not as dangerous as a power saw for sure. But, it takes a little more practice because of the much more "Freehand" nature of using a belt sander. And you always have to keep in mind you have a sharp blade in your hand that you don't want to get caught and thrown by a fast rotating tool.

So, again, I recommend some practice on cheap stuff first. - Probably best to practice on some "DULL" stuff first as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


.



---------------------

Another post:



I don't know everybodies qualifications for use of tools, so for me to generally state that everybody should get one could probably cause some problems.

But, I personally highly recommend a belt sander to "those capable of using one".

So, as much as I empowered people to get one before. I further empower you to use your own judgement and be responsible for all effects of purchasing, owning and using such tools. Be carefull!!! - especially when grinding sharp knives and similarly sharp tools!!!

If you read certain posts over at Bladeforums and knifeforums, even the professionals talk about an occassional knife going flying!!!

They especially caution about using buffers on sharp blades!!!!!

The loose knit material is apparently notorious for grapping and throwing blades. I have read where many professional knife-makers are very apprehensive about polishing blades with a buffer because of the dangers. So, if anybody decides to tinker with buffing sharp blades, be VERY AWARE of the dangers!
Based on what I have read, I would probably have to recommend "NOT" using a buffer on sharp blades unless you are very experienced.

Other safety tips related to belt-sanders:

Hold the knife carefully.
Don't grind off knuckles.
Wear eye protection.
Wear masks.
Keep loose sleeves and similar clothing away from wheels and belts - as they can catch and quickly grap your arm or similar causing a knife to fling or similar.

Etc. etc.!

Short of having a professional knife-maker teach you, there really isn't much to substitute for lots of practice if making modifications to nice knives.

And just heads up - Pay Attention! - Look for possible issues.

---------

The platen is crucial for flat grinds. If you are cleaning up a blade with flat sides, you will need to use the platen to "maintain" the flat surface.

Not using the platen - when grinding with a flexed belt seems to be generally referred to as "Slack belt grinding" - creates a convex grind.

The more you push or the looser your belt is the more convex the blade will be.

More convex edges and/or more obtuse grind angles are sometimes better for very thick blades or blades to be used as choppers as the curve can add reinforcing strength to the edge. - personal preference and use (????).

More flat grinds and/or more acute grind angles are often better for smaller knives not heavily used for chopping and intended for sharp cutting.

Most of the typical do-it-yourself belt sander don't truly have much in the way of tightening the belt. The adjustment screw can tighten it some, but usually also controls alignment. So, your ability to tighten much isn't really there much.

So, sometimes you will need to alter the amount of pressure against the belt for different radius curves or flatter grinds on your convexing.

As Vic mentioned, the proper belts are easily the most realistic way to get a proper finish or proper edge. Felt or leather belts with compounds go even further. *Hint: only use one felt or leather belt per given compound. It is generally not considered good to use multiple compounds on one belt as you will get mixed results. Whatever color compound you put on your belt will eventualy turn black and make them hard to tell apart. I heard of a good way to keep them correct is to keep them in a labeled zip-lock bag.

I don't always have to remove the platen to do some slack belt grinding on my sander, but it depends on your platen (and how your platen is attached), size of blade and your technique.

The tables do just tend to be in the way for most anything related to knife modifications. The general concept of the table is to help give you a fixed angle against the platen - say for a 90 degree grind. But, most knife modifications involve a knife with a handle already attached and it is pretty hard to ever get much if any use out of the table. It is just in the way.

But, don't loose or throw away the table either.

Don't use a bench-"Grinder" on knives. The typical Bench grinders typically run at VERY high speeds. The high speeds WILL easily damage a heat treatment and would likely be dangerous with a sharp blade.

I think the typical hollow ground knife goes like this:

1) cut and rough shape blank
2) grind primary grind on belt sander with large prefessional knife-makers sized wheels
3) drill holes for handle
4) heat treat
5) Clean and finish blade after heat treat
6) add and finish handle
7) sharpen

** Notice sharpening is last and heat treat is after heavy grinding. I think most knife-makers seem to use belt sanders with various belts and compounds for sharpening.


Best tip I can think of for beginning with a Belt sander: Go slow!

Also, if you have a Drill press, I found a "Kit" with various sized drum sanding heads at Sears that has been pretty helpful for a lot of concave shaping - such as choils and handles and such. Something to consider.....

I already had a drill press and find lots of home projects I use it for. It can do a lot more precision than a regular drill press and it really helps free up your hands which can be very helpful.
But, a fairly cheap Delta drill press or similar would start at about $100 and go up. I have a counter-top model that I can move around, BUT it is still pretty heavy to move. I have been considering buying or building a table I can roll it around on, but it would need to be able to roll off and back onto the edges of my garage. And then I would need to take up floor-space in my garage.

I have lots of pretty expensive tools as I do lots of home renovation projects. Compressors, table saws, miter saws, nail guns and many other high dollar tools that make my drill press seem like a good deal. Heck, most little 12V, 14.4V and 18V cordless drills cost more than $100. But, not everybody will justify a drill press (?????).


Anyway, again, Good luck!


.

This thread is supposed to be about sharpening, but stripping blades and refinishing to satin is often a tie in.

Here is a great post by Vic from the past - #79719 - Sun Jun 24 2007 10:55 AM :



Tutorial: Stripping & Polishing Pics

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

Thanks again KG for your efforts in putting all this together! This is exactly what I need to be reading over before I get started with the new Kalamazoo. I haven't ordered belts yet but plan to do that today...(it came with one 80 grit).

I'm carefully planning the set up and placement to optimize everything. I can see how 'dry runs', i.e. standing at the machine, holding the blade in the work position, is really useful not only in understanding some of the finer points that you and others mention, but also in positioning the machine, setting up the work area etc.

To stray just a little...I'm thinking about changing careers...getting out of the plumbing buisness (why don't we have spell check?) and I thought after I get up and running with the belt sander about the concept of starting a sharpening service. Any thoughts? How to get started? The guy in the Aaron Brown clip seemed to have a nice little gig going.

This seems to be a good price, the least expensive I've found thus far, for a new Kalamazoo:

http://www.knifekits.com/vcom/product_info.php?cPath=49_115_207&products_id=309

crpoc,

that is probably the best price I have seen on a Kalamazoo.

Tango,



I hope there is some worthy info scattered amongst all of the rambling. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

80 grit is pretty agressive. I feel it is a little too agressive for edge profiling. It is more suited for moderate shaping and material removal.

In regards to belts: you could do some research, but research can be pretty time consuming.

What I would probably recommend is to put a little trust in the guys selling the belts and just "Ask" their advice.

I have read that certain types of belts have certain better characteristics for certain things. Some types of belts last longer, cut smoother, etc. I think I remember reading good things about ceramic belts, but I haven't tried them. They may be good for some things and not others (????).

I wouldn't get overly worked up about the "type" of belts in the beginning. Just getting a good variety of grits to get the feel of and to experiment first is probably more relavent in the beginning.

Jerry Hossom makes some recomendations on his first post of his sharpening thread listed above. I would be pretty confident in his advice. But, you could ask the guys selling the belts. Explain what you are trying to do - then try to determine if they seem like they are knowledgable and giving knowledgable advice - good luck.

In case you missed it above, read this: Grinder Tips

-----------




That is a HUGE open-ended question......

Honestly, I don't think the answer is as simple as you might think.

Well.... my first advice would be to get your equipment and do some practicing! I don't see a problem with planning ahead, but you probably need to figure out how to do it first, then be able to be convinced your skills are good enough to sell! And sell as a "professional" at what you are offering.

I would probably advise to not quit your day job just yet. If you decide to try this, I would probably recommend doing it on the side for a bit to see if and how you can get it going prior to not having an income (????).

You are also going to need to learn and know how to "professionally" sharpen a LARGE variety and types of knives:

*** Kitchen knives come in a HUGE variety of styles and with a large variety of edge profiles and bevels. Some clients might want a specific bevel angle.
Can you sharpen a serrated bread knife? Have you seen the variety of serrations?

You can't sharpen all of these knives with a belt sander. You will have to know quite a few different sharpening techniques and be a proficient professional with a large variety of knife knowledge.

You would do yourself a favor by being knowledgable about a large variety of steel info and different knife maker info.

Might want to get knowlegable with all parts and terms related to knives and especially kitchen knives if that is "possibly" a large sharpening market: Kitchen knife forum @ Knifeforums

I would generally say it is best to be as knowledgable as possible about a WIDE range of knife information: types of knives, knife makers, types of steel, types of grinds, types of knives that require specific types of grinds because of intended application; Single edge on right or left side for right or left handed use?; etc., etc......

Do you know kitchen knife terms and styles of knives? Japanese terms vs. European? - Santoku vs. Sashimi (aka Yanagi); Nakiri vs. Usubo; Deba vs. Gyutou, etc., etc.......

If you get into kitchen knives, there is a LOT to learn and to offer to sharpen would likely require being very knowledgable about a bunch of knife info. Learning about Japanese knives is almost like learning about an entire culture.

I am NOT an expert. I have just seen a little and enough to know there is WAY more info that I don't know.

Certain chefs can be reasonably knowledgable about knives. But, their own little world of chef specific knives is a little different than field use knives. However, it would likely be in your best interst to know what you are dealing with and know how to speak "knowledgably" to prospective clients.

It may seem like over-kill on the service, but some of these Japanese knives actually (if you can believe it) can cost more than Busse INFI "varient" knives and they are intended to have very traditional and "specific" edges as they are often used for specific tasks.

If a chef or some rich guy with some $2,500.00 folded damscus hand-forged whatever hands you his knife and you put the wrong type of edge on it, you and your business "might" have some problems. Further, many collectors and users of fine cutlery take great pride in some of their knives. If damaged, it might be like wrecking somebodies Ferrari.

I am not trying to scare you, but the reality is sharpening knives "might" require a broad spectrum of knowledge and skills.

On the other hand, you "might" have a majority of cleintelle who just want there piece of steel sharper (????).

The guy with a Van and mobile sharpening like in Alton Brown's clip probably/"possibly" has the right idea if your intent is to focus on a "niche" area of specifically sharpening. You probably need to be able to go to your clients.
On the other hand, I can see where certain people might want to drop by a "Shop" to drop off business. But, my guess is mobile is best.
If you are a one-man show (likely the case), you probably can't run and keep a "shop" open for sharpening - and be mobile. Probably a conflict in hours of operation (???).
My guess is that the cost and over-head of maintaining a shop would out-weigh revenue justification for a shop. And I believe your main market would be catering to professionals in the field.

D&R Sharpening is a sharpening business run by a guy who I keep seeing doing a lot of posting on Knifeforums. I haven't had any discussions directly with him, but I have read a lot of posts by him. Check out his web-site: D & R Sharpening Solutions

....... Lot's of good info on his web-site.

Take a look at the inside of his van: Sharpening Van inside

There is some pricing info on his web-site. Having a web-site is pretty big these days even for a local market. I don't know, but I don't see a whole lot of demand for getting people outside of your local market to track you down for sharpening. But, it is possible.

Again, I have read some of this guys posts on knifeforums. He is pretty knowledgable and he uses MANY different techniques as application requires.

Knowing this info and building trust and credibility with clients is likely a make or break deal.

I keep referring to chefs as being a target market, but hair-stylists also have HIGH dollar shears - also requiring a VARIETY of different sharpening techniques. You would likely go to them as well.

Machinists and similar commercial trades have a variety of "tools" than need sharpening, but again, often very unique types of steels and VERY specific grind angles. New and wide base of knowledge required again.

I have no idea if any similar services are available in your area, but it is always good to know your competition in your market: If there is any competition, how they run their business and how you could do it better.
In the process of learning your competition, you should try to determine the market demands: who wants your service - who are you going to try to market your services to and how.
How much do you charge / "can" you charge?, what is your over-head costs - equipment, gas, insurance, etc. Does the business model pay enough to cover expenses and provide a reasonable income?

Alton Brown is a TV personality, but essentially a chef with a TV cooking show.

I would think that chefs - especially those at high end restaurants and/or high end hotels with nice restaurants might be a target client - possibly the "main" target for that type of service (???).

I have been to gun and knife shows where on "rare" occassion I have seen a guy with a setup charging $5.00 or similar to sharpen a knife. But, I haven't seen this often and I don't know how much it costs to have a table at a gun show. Maybe if considering this option, go to a gun and knife show and talk to guys there about "sharing" the cost of a table since you wouldn't need much space (???).

I tend to believe in being "Pro-Active" in marketing a business. Putting up a sign or an ad in the yellow pages or even a web-site isn't going to get you off the ground alone. All of these are worthwhile marketing efforts, but not much by themselves. Word of mouth is going to be huge. Business cards to hand out sounds obvious and simple, but are still a HUGE tool in my book. Spend a little bit of time designing your business card prior to ordering a box. Try to get the most relevant info well displayed on the card without being a jumbled mess. Sometimes a little "sales" pitch on the card can be good. Nowdays, you can print info on both sides of a card - maybe a price list on back. The information on the card and "How" the info is presented to the person who sees your card sometimes influences whether they even actually read the card.
If you have a good client, give them two or three cards and find your own best way to ask for referrals. Referrals are HUGE.

You would likely need to start out literally knocking on doors - such as restaurants. You might approach them with a flyer of some sort breaking down your prices. But, to get your foot in the door, you might "consider" offering a discount the first time to get them "Hooked". Any good chef is going to HIGHLY appreciate VERY sharp knives. Using sharp knives vs. dull is very addictive.

Similarly, there are a few outdoorsmen, hunters, etc. who would greatly appreciate sharp knives. But, my gut feeling is that the outdoorsman and hunting crowd is a harder sell. Outdoorsman mentallity is they want to do it themselves. But, there are quite a few who have been frustrated with their own inabilities to sharpen well and might concede to a professional. I just don't know how to market to hunters and outdoorsman in a local market other than a gun and knife show - hand out lots of cards and/or flyers.

Get to know all of your local knife shops for sporting knives, kitchen knives, professional use blades, shears, etc. Keep in contact, discuss ways to promote yourself at their place of business, maybe ask or arrange to be part of any big promotions with traffic where you can set up shop on a big promotion traffic day, etc. You want to be friends with local vendors and retailers who sell any product you might likely sharpen. But, I am referring to specialty stores, not your local general sports store.

Chefs - especially high end chefs, often take pride in their knives, but like Alton, they might maintain them by honing them on a steel, but often are not good at sharpening or don't want to take the time or are afraid of messing up expensive knives, etc. You have to find a way and be prepared to "SELL" the value of your services: Why do they want to "PAY" you.
Ask yourself the possible questions and prepare the possible answers in advance.



Sorry for my long reply.... I got carried away again. But, in my mind, your question really was HUGE. And I only feel I have scratched the surface. Any business small or big can be advised upon with book-loads of advice. But, I will have to wrap up that for now. Some of the above info might be sketchy and random, but hopefully will help with some of the thought process.

Good luck.

.

KG -
You've covered a lot of ground, and brought up some very valid considerations. I think I can do it if I start small, don't rush things and equip myself properly (tools AND knowledge) and market it properly. There's alot to learn!

I'm going to print out your post and read it over a few times...lots of good points there!

Thanks!
Mike

Based on a recent post, I thought I would add this post from another thread here - to help update this one:


I don't know if you will be heading down the path that includes stropping or not. There really is no "ONE" way. Many of the different methods can be sufficient or effective.

But, again, I personally LOVE full convex or even partial convex on flat grind. And, I personally really find stropping the best way to get a hair popping edge.

It takes a little practice and know-how. But, so do most techniques.

Research is good.

I recently built myself a new strop bat (with some leather scraps help from a fellow forum buddy here - Thanks Brian).


My strap bat is pretty big at about 22.5" long and with the strop surface area about 13" x 3.1875".

Honestly, the handle doesn't realy have much value. I could have left it off. But, I like the size of the surface area. There are a lot of strops out there with a small width of 1.5" - 2.0". They work, but I like the larger area for larger knives.

I just glued and clamped together some scrap pieces of Kempas hardwood flooring leftover from re-flooring part of my house. I used some brad nails and screws in some hidden places as I tend to over-build my projects. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The slats are solid hardwood and were nice and flat. (* This Kempas is some VERY HARD / TOUGH heavy duty wood! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> )







It doesn't need to have different levels and bevels and such, but.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> :




With compound (needs some heat and smoothing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />):



I picked up my compounds from DLT Trading Co


The Black does about 90% of the work with the green just doing the final touch up to the edge.

In most cases, the key is to not push down on the knife and just let the weight of the knife be enough - unless the blade is very light.
If you push down too hard, you cause the abrasive to rise back behind the sharp edge and dull the edge instead of sharpen. It takes patience and time.


There are some pretty good videos on YouTube about stropping.

I still love this video from J. Neilson. J. Neilson uses a power-strop / belt sander method:

Quick & easy knife sharpening - J. Neilson - Notice very little flex in the belts when sharpening.

I currently use my belt sander for just shaping and reprofiling. But, with the 220 grit, I get a bunch of the shaping of the edge done. I still want to upgrade to some better/finer grits and some leather strop belts some day. But, I am holding off for a better quality belt sander still. (some day <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)


Since Bark River makes all of their knives with a convex edge, there are a lot of good threads/posts on the Bark River forum (at Knifeforums.com) about stropping.




I like to keep my compound flat on my strop, but I don't like to use my knife to flatten the compound as it will abrade any given part of the knife intentionally or not.

So, I keep a cheap 3" - 4" putty (spackling) blade near my strop to help keep my strop compound level and flat.
Putty knives can be had for $3 - $4 at any hardwear store.

But, any cheap piece of "FLAT" / square edged metal will work.

I also have some metal rulers from Wal-Mart that are about 1.25" wide and good thickness and nice edges for about a $1.00. They could be cut in half or thirds and work VERY well!

Spines of various saw blades should work well such as Reciprocating or Jigsaw blades, old scrap hack-saw blades, etc.

Just any scrap piece of metal that has a pretty good flat square edge that can scrape.

I like to hold the metal blade with both hands on either side of the strop and draw (pull) the blade across the strop at just slightly forward of 90 degrees like you would draw a burnishing or scraping blade across flat wood.

I keep my strop on a pan or lid to catch the crumbs when I do this.

I don't like to mess up my blades or spines of my knives leveling my strop.

.

Knifeguy you are the man!

i am a sharpening nut. I like convex edges for some types of knives and standard edges for others.

One of the most useful tools I have is the dremel with little circles of sandpaper.

I have about an hours worth of videos on sharpening with a belt sander posted here. There might be something useful in there.

BTW, I just picked up one of those KMG's <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hey Knifeguy,

That is one fine looking stropping paddle!

Thanks BrianA!

wow

i think my brain is going to explode!


awesome info in this thread

Mine, too. If I had known it was this complicated, I would never have started using a belt sander. The information is all good, though. I have only ruined a few inexpensive knives while learning this stuff. It is easier to do than it is to describe accurately. Like walking. We do many things instinctively without really thinking about it. Like I naturally feel that more pressure on the belt means more convex and also more heat and more material removed. Also the closer to the wheel, the less flex and less convex. My full convexed ASH1 took me 8 hours. The math formulas to describe the exact shape of the final grind are mind boggling. But the process of doing it was very organic and natural for me.

Thanks Unsub.

I have heard from multiple knife-makers that those VERY high speed Dremels can cause hot spots on the thin edge of a blade and potentially damage the heat treat (?????????) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I would be careful with that thing.

.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


Those are VERY good vids Brian - You Da Man. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


We need vids of that KMG in action!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

.

Yes. I like it. Many thanks for your help. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


Now I just need a Kalamazoo or a KMG. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" /> - some day.....


.

Ummmm ... sorry for a bunch of long posts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


It isn't complicated once you get the hang of it. But, I think a bunch of people would likely mess up knives in the beginning without practice and a few tips.


Like riding a bike, once you get it, you get it.
I don't want to scare people from using a belt sander. I just don't want to hear people are ruining $$$$$'s of knives.

Vic, even you will admit, your first attempts were not exactly pretty.... nor were mine. The best advice by far is to practice on a few junker cheapies first. Different sizes and different belly types.


Watching videos like Brian's is easier and less intimidating than my long posts.

At least I don't do (or describe) long mind boggling math formulas! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



.

I like your long posts just fine, KG. Like I said, good information. Get some cheap machetes and go for it!

KG,
your post are very informative.


keep up the good work!

I am also a fan of knifeguys posts. It would be different if they were long winded AND bad info but it is all pretty useful. I was "into knives" for a long time before I learned how edges actually work and how much better a sharp one really is.


About the Dremel while you can heat up the work going to fast with the wrong bit using it for polishing at a speed that won't rip the disk of 200 grit sandpaper up is pretty hard. Even thick 60 grit disks don't heat up enough to hurt the heat treat.

It has been a little while since I bought my KG, but I swear I paid $199 for it. I bought it local and Production Tool Supply. There was one near where I worked and I didn't have to pay shipping. I am not sure how much shipping is on them, but it can't be tool cheap.

Long way of saying, you might want to look in to the more "commercial" tool supply companies (like Production Tool).

I am glad you liked those. Now looking back there are probably a few tweaks I would do, and some little details I forgot. But, they were a lot of work! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> I really don't want to go back and re-do them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Come on now..... Now that you have a KMG, you have to make a video of you doing something with a knife on the KMG. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

You don't have to redo "all" of your vids. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

.

If I do a KMG video, it will be a whole knife grind <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Not just a simple sharpening <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Brian

Even better! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

.

Put down that fishing pole, Brian and get to grinding! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I kept looking through my posts trying to find a particular link to a stropping tutorial and couldn't find the link. I have referenced this link for a few years now. It is a great tutorial and used by MANY or Knifeforums and quite a few other forums:


CONVEX SHARPENING THE BRKCA WAY By Reid Hyken aka: Sharpshooter

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

Thank You KnifeGuy !! That is great info- appreciate very much <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

wow this is all the info i need thanks KG!!!

i wish i could read it all now but work calls!

have a great day guys!

Nick,

For $200, you can “get into the game” very well. Amazon sells the Delta SA180 for about $114 with free shipping last I checked (it changes…). A good leather belt will probably run about $25 - $35. A handful of various grits on decent quality belts and a couple of abrasive compounds will take you to about $200 or so. With that set-up, you will be able to do a LOT!

But, practice on some cheap junker knives at first is always highly recommended.

I am a big advocate of using a belt sander for sharpening and “reprofiling” my edges.

I don’t have the SOD, but I have and have had many other Busse and kin knives.

Busse and kin knives have a mentality of shipping their sharpened edges fairly obtuse. Since Busse and kin have developed such a reputation for hard use/abuse knives and since there is a fair amount of the people who use Busse and kin knives who want their knives to show no or very little edge damage or edge deformation even when pounding their Busse and kin knives into cinder blocks. Over the years, I have seen quite a few posts from people who took their new Busse and kin knife of whatever steel out and beat on harder than steel materials and then posted with surprise on how their Busse “failed” (in the owners mind) because it had a little ding or roll. The reality is that INFI, SR-77, SR-101 are all very tough, but they will still ding and roll with certain abuse even with a very thick obtuse edge because there are many other materials that have a higher hardness including other steels or various rocks and minerals in nature. But, Busse steel has a very good reputation for not chipping out. Although, there have been a few exceptions. In any event, those thick obtuse edges are tough edges, but still just don’t make great slice cutting edges.
You “Can” make an obtuse angle “sharp”. Many shearing machines have close to 90 degree angles. But, while “sharp” edges can accomplish many types of cutting tasks, obtuse edges don’t make the best slice cutting edges. Finer thinner angles will slice through material easier.
With knife steels there are compromises. If you want a thin slicer, it won’t be as tough. If you want Uber-tough, you tend to have to compromise in some of the slicing potential. SR-77 can be re-profiled to have a much thinner edge than typically ships from the factory. And this thinner edge will slice better and still be “reasonably” tough. But, it will roll and deform a little easier. There are a lot of factors to consider when reprofiling a blades edge. But, basically, if you are doing your own knives and do it often enough with lots of knife use, you get a feel for what type of edge profile you like and what is best for your uses.
If you beat the snot out of certain knives, you should probably consider leaving the bevels on those knives a little thicker. If you have certain knives with harder steel that you only use for dedicated slicing, you can typically make those bevels more acute to optimize slicing. Just know that the thicker edges won’t slice as well and the thinner ones will get damaged easier if abused.
In either case, a convexed edge as you would develop by using a belt sander, will cut very well. I personally prefer a convexed edge on most of my knife edges and especially my field use knives. I think a good convex edge can offer a good balance of edge toughness with good slicing ability. Some fine slicing knives might be slightly better served with an acute flat edge grind, but for most any real world use – especially field use and for larger knives such as the SOD, I consider a convex edge ideal. But, opinions vary.

With practice, the right belt sander and the right belts/grits/abrasives, a belt sander can be MUCH faster at reprofiling and sharpening knives.

The general public has it fixed in their heads for centuries on using stones for sharpening. For those who insist on using stones and want a fixed angle, there are some great sharpening jigs on the market. Some people have relearned the art of stropping. I built and still use my strop a lot. I can use my strop easier inside the house. And there are some great ideas out there for creating pack-worthy mini strop kits for field use, hunting, camping, survival, etc.
I generally only use my stop for fine tuning and only because I still haven’t yet upgraded my belt sander to what I want. And since I haven’t upgraded my belt sander, I don’t want to waste money on certain belts for my current belt sander/grinder. I have been dying to get some quality leather belts for power stropping on my belt sander. If Busse and kin would stop taking most all of my money, I might be able to buy an upgraded belt sander. While a 1”x30” is cheap and can do a LOT, I still recommend saving your pennies for a nice Delta SA180 or better. (Check Amazon.com)




My concern is not heat build-up as I have a good feel for that and I don’t think it takes much practice to get a feel for. Just knowing about how to keep an eye on heat build-up and following through with a couple of simple practices, makes heat build-up reasonably easy to keep in check.

My much bigger concern is “Control”. I want clean lines and don’t want goofed up spots on my blade.

If you slightly dig a belt into a corner of your blade just slightly wrong, it can take a LOT of balancing and steel removal to make a blade look decent again. It is a lot easier to avoid messing up your blade by just edge sharpening. But, I have used my machine for lots of significant modifications on many types of knives including folders. Little details and even big grind changes can both be hard to get right with cheap equipment.

In regards to heat build-up: coarser grits don't necessarily heat the blades as fast as finer grits. I can understand why you might think this.

Coarse grits obviously remove more material and much faster and they can develop heat quite rapidly, but the tendency for most people if you use a finer grit is to hold the blade on the finer grit longer and harder to try to remove more material. Doing so will develop heat VERY fast. I think it is common for many to think that if you are removing a lot of material, you are generating more heat vs. not removing much material doesn’t generate much heat. But, this is not how it works.
Coarser grits can literally “Cut” off the steel with less friction. Finer grits have more and more contact and more and more micro-abrasion “Friction” that generates a lot of heat (sometimes very fast) even if not removing so much material. Most people wouldn’t think a buffing wheel with compound would generate much heat – they would be VERY wrong.

Probably, the two most common things to watch out for – especially for beginners are:

1. Not to let the heat build up to much and damage temper. But, just knowing to watch out for this makes this fairly easy to prevent. Knowing to watch for it, and using a water dunk.

2. Destroying nice grind lines. This just takes a lot of practice, familiarity with grits, how to angle and move your blade, etc. But, coarser grits can and will do much more damage faster if you mis-align your blade or otherwise grind it improperly. In many cases, you can get good enough to deal with a higher speed machine just by getting good at how to angle and move the blade with the right pressure in concert with a given machine’s speed. But, in many cases, variable speed would be a very nice option.


For me, I would probably be fine in most cases for 90% of my grinding with a Delta’s full speed. My current grinder only has one speed. But, I have talked a buddy into the SA180 and used it a bit. It does seem faster. But, it also seems much easier to control. To me, to keep my grind lines smooth and straight, the control factor out-weighs speed.

My cheapo Delta 1”x30” has too much belt movement and too much belt curvature. I have accomplished a lot with it and with a lot of experience and familiarity with it, I have produced some decent results. But, I am VERY confident, I could produce even better results faster and with much more ease with a better tool than my cheapo 1”x30”. And I am confident the much higher end Delta SA180 is about 4-6 times better quality than my cheapo Delta.

However, even with the higher speed of a Delta SA180 being fine for me in most cases, if I want to “hone” with very fine grits and leather belts, I think slower speeds offer even more control.

But, I have not seen variable speed belt sanders for much less than $2,000.


I don’t have a Delta SA180 (yet???), but if and when I get one, I might be interested in trying one of a couple of attempts I have seen to modify belt speeds by adding multiple sized pulley’s. See:

Delta SA180 Belt Pulley modifications



Regardless of grit, I recommend a few things:

1. Keep in mind that the heat build-up between a belt grinder and knife steel is through friction and more importantly “AT” the point of friction. In most cases, people are doing most of their grinding “AT” the thinnest part of the blade (the edge). A thicker part of steel can “dissipate” heat. But, a thinner part cannot so easily. If you feel heat in the upper thicker parts of the blade like the spine, the thin edge that you are creating the heat at would have been MANY times hotter. Which brings the next point:

2. Always keep a bowl of water dunk close to your grinder. You will have to practice to know how and where is the best/ideal place to keep you water dunk. *Don’t use glass - I actually used an old very thick glass vase once because it was handy. I thought it was solid and thick at about ¼” thick glass and it was deep enough for my blade, after about 10 dunks, the glass cracked and then fell apart making a big mess on my workbench and shop. The dunk bowl needs to hold water at least as long as the blade and some extra inches of water can be handy as well. Sometimes, I will reshape choils, thumb ramps and such and will dunk a portion of the handle a few inches beyond what I am grinding. Ambient temperature water will cool the blade down VERY fast – within often within a second or two and many times faster than air cooling. When I first started using my belt sander, I didn’t always have a dunk handy. Even then as now, I like to keep the blades cool enough where I can tough and hold any part of the blade – especially at the areas I am grinding. Waiting for a blade to air cool so you can keep grinding takes WAY longer than a dunk. Especially for beginners (until you get a good feel for how various belts build up heat and how heat dissipates on various blades), I recommend dunking after every 1-3 passes or so. With practice, you will get a feel for friction vs. heat build-up and when to dunk.

3. Don’t hold any blade stagnant against the belt – most any grit can “burn” into any blade if held stagnant. If you “Burn” the blade, you have most likely damaged the heat treatment/temper to some degree. A “burn” mark will often be some sort of discoloration in the steel – black, blue, orange, etc. depending on the type of steel and severity of the burn. If burned (damaged temper), the blade can *Plus, holding a blade stagnant against a belt will ruin your grind line. If you have a bad ding or roll in an edge, you will still have to grind it out across the whole length of the blade by running the full length of a blade across the belt. In some cases, you can feather/taper a blade on and off of the belt, but that requires more practice and can still mess up your grind lines if you don’t have a lot of experience. By keeping a blade moving, you don’t generate “spot” heat and you help the heat distribute and dissipate more evenly.

4. I am sure there are more things to recommend (?????), but practice is best.


As has been said in many of the previous posts about using a belt sander/grinder for the first time, start with a CHEAP practice blade. Further, I would recommend trying to start with various size and shaped cheap practice blades to familiarize yourself with blades comparable to what you will actually be wanting to work on. Flatter edges are easier to work on. Curvier blades with lots of belly and recurves are trickier. 3” – 5” blades are easier, larger 7.5” + blades require steadier movements. Small little blades can either be easy or hard (?????).

Depending on what you are doing, sometimes it would still be advised to use the coarser grits – at least to a point.

Below, I will attempt to break down how “I” use the various sanding grits. *** But, keep in mind that how they are used can vary depending on type and hardness of steel, size and shape of knife, your experience level, your belt sander/grinder and it’s speeds, etc…

The common belt grits are:

40 - VERY coarse - for fast material removal - best for serious blade shaping, knife “Making”, fast reprofiling and similar – One should probably be pretty experienced before using this grit as a blades “shape” can be VERY quickly altered and made to look like a mess if you don’t have a feel for it. Great for quickly taking heavy dings out of machetes, axes/hatchets and such before progressing to finer grits. I don’t often use this grit for finer quality knives.

80 - Pretty coarse - still pretty fast material removal - still good for blade shaping and fast reprofiling, but offers more control for most novices compared to 40 grit. This grit will become a must have grit for heavy edge re-profiling or ding fixing and is still a good grit for fixing heavy dings in machetes and such. But, 80 grit can still mess up a blade fast if not experienced. So, I would still recommend starting with 120 – 220 on nicer knives for novices.

120 – Fairly coarse – moderate material removal – still a grit for shaping and reprofiling. Not really for sharpening.

150 – Fairly coarse – very similar to 120, but slightly finer

220 – Medium grit – can slowly/slightly reprofile and quickly sharpen, but not a keen edge (IMO)

320, 400, 600, 15 micron, 9 micronblack, green, white pink polishing compounds, all perform varying levels of sharpening and polishing.


For a good source for Belts see:


Lee Valley Belts

Jantz Knife Supply

Texas Knife Supply - Sanding Belts

Pop's Knife Supply - Sanding Belts

I think it was Snotpig who had good luck with the premium belts from here:

McMaster-Carr - Sanding belts


There are some other belts sources and types of belts I have seen recommended, but I wouldn’t be the best source for advice. I actually had some other links at one time, but can’t find them.

---------------------------------

When using your belt sander for reprofiling and coarser grit belts, Vic, myself, Mike Stewart and many others will grind the edge into the rotation of the belt. This technique allows you to better see the edge as you are grinding and results in a better edge grind and/or edge profile.

I believe Vic and Mike actually do a lot of sharpening that way to. But, it gets trickier with finer grits (which have thinner paper).

The thicker heavier grits and belts are much more forgiving to an edge. I have yet to cut through a heavy coarse grit belt. But, the thinner belts can be cut just a little easier than I like - especially, certain cheaper belts or well worn belts. I don’t think the belts cut so easily just by the blade’s edge cutting into the belt at a perpendicular angle. I think what happens is if the blades edge is just slightly angled and catches the corner, it slices through the belt in a fraction of a second – Basically, the belt pops and flys around the wheels a bit - VERY fast and fairly unsettling. I haven’t been hit by a belt or hurt, but I suppose it could do some damage. Also, when a belt is worn and/or frayed, I think they are more prone to being snagged by a blade’s edge. Or certain cheaper belts have a lesser quality lap joint that can be snagged by a blades edge.

Maybe Vic can chime in and add more input. BrianA is also quite skilled and knowledgeable about belt sanding as some others around here. But, hopefully, I at least addressed your question about heat vs. grits and speed.

.

That's a GREAT post KG, thanks!

From another thread:



Bob,


Hmmmm Lansky (and similar fixed angle jig systems) vs. mouse pad (and similar convex or strop type systems) are a little like vinegar and water to each other. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Some problems with Jigs vs. Stropping and/or belt sanders:

Jigs require constant angles.

Stropping and belt sanders create convex edges with inconsistent fluid curves.

The two don't mix well.

-----------


You "can" convex edges that were at fixed angles pretty easily. But, then it requires a lot more work to get the edge back to the fixed angle because you will have to sharpen with the jig through the convex back to the jig's angle. That takes a lot of time and effort - unless you have some good coarse diamond stones. Again, quality and variety of stones help a lot, but also can cost a lot.

Same with stropping. You can strop a fixed angle blade, but it will convex the angle which takes that much more time and effort to get an angle back to a fixed angle.

Basically, for time and convenience sake, if you use a fixed angle jig, it is generally in your best interest to "maintain" that fixed angle. To do that, you really need to only use your jig because any efforts by hand on a free sitting stone, a strop or belt sander is just not going to maintain that angle.

Also, I personally use and like slightly different angles on different knives. I like my choppers to have a little thicker and stouter edge than my kitchen knives or folders or small slicers, etc. With a jig, you have to constantly change and set different angles. Again, for me, this was all just a hassle and jigs (for me) are just too darn slow and tedious.
With some practice, a belt sander is more about knowing some approximate angles, feel and similar. It might have a little steeper learning curve, but it quickly becomes so much faster and easier.


There is NOTHING wrong with sharpening jigs. But, if you like and want to use a jig, it seems to me you are best off “sticking” with a jig and not messing up your consistent angles by also using a strop type method….. unless you are experimenting with both systems on different knives and have certain knives set aside and dedicated to certain sharpening methods.... That would be learning! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Jigs can all help you create RAZOR sharp edges. But, the jig is only a PART of the sharpening equation. Maintaining a constant fixed angle is what the jig helps you do. But, you have to set the angle and/or figure out a knives existing angle – which can be tricky. How and where a knife is mounted in the jig can change the angle a bit as well. Learning how to use your jig and set up all of these angles is a big part of becoming proficient with any jig. For me, that just became a hassle. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Proper grit is another KEY part to sharpening with ANY system. And can be an expensive part – especially for certain jig systems.

While most stones probably last longer than most belts, the stones can cost MANY times more than comparable grit belts. In the end, along with being much faster and easier (IMO), I think a belt sander with belts is actually cheaper.

Keep in mind that many stones will actually hollow out over time which will affect the critical angles of a jigs intent - most noticable if changing from a hollowed out stone of one grit to a flat stone of another grit while trying to maintain the same angle. It won't work too well.

The Apex Pro is highly regarded sharpening jig/system. But, it is pretty expensive. And the stones that you have to buy for the system add up very fast – especially if you want a variety of grits.

If you are interested in a sharpening jig, I am confident, that the Lansky and Apex Pro are both effective. And you can learn a lot about edges by lots of use and familiarization with different sharpening techniques.

From the “Jigs” I have come across, I really liked the EZE Sharp Sharpening System (Jig)

See: Doing it EZE - posted by Trumby on Swamp Rat

The EZE Sharp was/is a heavy duty built jig. As far as jigs go, I think it was pretty versatile. Except, like other jigs, you have to have good quality stones. I was about to drop a lot more money on more stones for my EZE Sharp system....

But, then I started using my belt sander for sharpening. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I already had my belt sander prior to buying the EZE Sharp, but never considered using it for sharpening. I used it for shop/woodworking stuff. I saw where others used belt sanders on Knifeforums or somewhere... Maybe Jerry Hossom's post or something (????). I tried it and found how FAST it was. .... and how fast you could change an edge for the worse if you didn't understand and have a good technique. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

You can quickly appreciate the value of "Practicing" on cheap knives.

I only used my EZE system about 7-8 times before starting to use my belt sander. Then I shelved my EZE system. Eventually, someone contacted me to buy it. So, I sold it.


You can quickly spend lot more money on jigs and stones for the jigs than if you were to buy a decent belt sander, some good belts AND a leather strop with compounds.... even a bunch of cheapo knives for practicing on the belt sander can still cost less. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Since they both require a different type of skill set for the most part to learn how to use properly, I don’t think I would say that using and getting familiar with one system will help so much with another.

But, maybe you want to master a variety of sharpening techniques/methods.... And be a "Connoisseur" of sharpening.

--------------

In regards to your inquiry about: you spotted “one” at JRE (??????),.... you had been discussing Lansky and homemade mouse-pad system. Most mouse-pad systems use sandpaper and can work very well. But, I think the mouse-pad systems inevitably lead to a leather strop – which JRE sells a very functional strop bat that I assume you were referring to.

Like this: JRE Industries - Strop Bats

I don’t have one of JRE’s strop bats. But, I have dealt with Dan at JRE. He seemed very helpful and friendly to deal with to me. And I have seen some posts in regards to others saying JRE’s strop belt was well made and a good design.

JRE’s price of $35 for a 4-sided and pre-loaded strop bat with (I am sure) good quality strop leather on a Red Oak bat, seems like a VERY good price/deal.

Notice JRE states: “We can make The Strop Bat any size you like. Custom size Strop Bats are NOT a problem! Just call us or email us with your specifications.”

Personally, I like a little larger strop bat. My strops leather surface area is about 13" x 3.1875" – But, mine is probably larger than needed.
I still like a surface area larger than 1.5" width as it helps with larger knives (IMO). But, in all fairness, you could easily strop a 10” blade on the “9 - 10 Inches long by 1.5 inches wide” like the strop surface area of JRE’s strop. The length is definitely not a problem.
But, personally, I would probably still opt up to a 2.5” wide strop or at least 2” wide which would still be plenty good and better/more versatile than 1.2" wide.
I don’t think most people would appreciate much gain in going up to 3” wide over 2.5” width. But, I think 2" has some advantages over 1.5" and 2.5" has some advantages over 2.0".
I don’t know what Dan charges for the custom sizing. But, I am pretty sure the prices would be fair and reasonable.

I ordered a sheath for my Bravo 1 from JRE that is nowhere near as nice as some of Jeff’s (Rainwalker) sheaths. I would rather own one of Jeff’s sheaths, but this was a time crunch situation and the JRE sheath was inexpensive, very functional and good quality for the money. He actually didn’t have the sheath in stock, but he made it up the night I ordered it and I had the sheath like 2-3 days later – VERY fast. I don’t believe that type of speed is normal – especially for out of stock items, but if anything, I would say that Dan at JRE obviously tries to work with his customers to help them get what they want.

For the record, convex sharpening by hand on a strop is still slow and tedious - especially if significant reprofiling is needed. But, the great thing about having a manual (convex technique )strop is for touching up. A strop bat is a great compliment to a belt sanding technique. - *One doesn't mess up the other.

With the right belts on a belt sander, you can get a VERY fine hair splitting edge and have no "need" for a strop. But, having and knowing how to use the strop for touch ups can be good for those times when you don't want to go outside, into your garage/shop, etc. to crank up the belt sander.... even if it would still be way faster to go to the shop/garage and use the belt sander.

Sometimes I will strop a knife or two while watching TV or something. But, also, some people might want a portable "field" strop kit. - something that would mess up fixed angle jig sharpened edges.


For some other tips, I want to defer to a whole "Sub"-Forum on Knifeforums.com See: Knifeforums - "Keeping Sharp" Forum

There is a LOT more info there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

But, be advised, including myself and my own opinions, you will find others who are quite set and confident with their own opinions and experiences.

Many people, including myself, have spent a lot of money investing into different sharpening systems before settling on our preferred methods. Some people prefer jigs (?????) – my guess is those people may have tried a LOT of systems,..... but “PROBABLY” did not try using a power belt sander with decent belts, decent abrasives and strops. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In all fairness though, some people might still prefer a manual jig or just strop system because they can't get the hang of a powered system or might just be afraid of hurting themselves or their knives with a powered system. I can't say that any given system is wrong for any reason. They are just different. And I just happen to like the speed of a powered system and I prefer my end results as well.... But, that is me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

.

Thanks KG- I will look all of this over MANY times and adjust my thinking.I appreciate you taking the time to put up all this information and links.I must say that this shapening is as addictive as the collecting and other endeavors. I can say for sure that I am having a great time thanks to all the folks like you that share and make this an enjoyable place to be <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Glad to be of any help on "FEEDING the addiction". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Yes, sharpening can be an addiction. Cool, nice looking, well designed knives are a joy to look at and hold. But, the true "Function" comes from optimized "Cutting". While many of us strongly appreciate Busse and kin's Uber-Toughness, a knife is still (to me) a "Cutting" tool first.
Without being sufficient enough at cutting for my needs, toughness is not very relevant to me.
To me, cutting ability is still the "Primary" need for a knife. I love "SCARY" sharp! So, to me, optimized cutting ability (while being "tough enough" to handle the type of cutting chores) is what counts (to me) and makes a good knife a GREAT tool to use and enjoy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Sorry about your wallet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

.

Here is a link to a great post/thread with lots of general and specific info about knives, knife steel, sharpening, etc.

Knife Maintenance and Sharpening, Instructor: Chad Ward


*** By the way.... the above link is full of great info, but a long post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The link was originally posted on another thread by Chickenplucker <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

A great link with great info, so I added it here. (Thanks! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />)

One of the problems I have on my Delta SA180 is getting a convex edge that can be completely touched up with one pass - I have to make about three passes with each grit and blend the passes with one another. I'm guessing I don't take off enough metal on the back portion of the edge and am not using enough pressure. I'm wary of using too much pressure and rounding the edge however. I really need a tutor <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Alternatively, some good vids of your techniques (which really show how much belt deflection you should be getting to get cetain results) would be helpful.

Try using a strop for touchups. It works for me.

I don't know where along the belt you usually hold the knife, but try doing it about three inches below the top pulley, and don't be afraid to put a little pressure into the belt. Just be sure to keep the blade moving, don't stop and stay in one place. Try to make your passes in one fluid motion.

Also, as Horn Dog said, try just using a good strop with proper technique to keep your edges in good shape. If they get a little beyond the strop being able to bring them back, I think the 15 micron belt is a good one for resharpening for once you have your profile like you want it.

Always remember the blade is going to heat up faster with the finer grit belts than it is with the coarser ones, so keep that blade moving and don't make a bunch of passes without dipping it in the water <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Do not wait until it is HOT before giving it a dunk.

There's alot of great info here. I would just add that, when using cheap belts (Home Depot Alum. Ox.) on the 1"x30 grinder, it is best to dry the knife after each successive water cooling bath (at least the side facing the grinder), in my experience. I'm not sure if it loads up the belt or what, but they become much less efficient. I've also seen this in the ceramic alumina belts, but not to the same extent.

Before you think it's hot, dunk it. When in doubt, dunk it. ...It's alot easier to work with a cool knife (pun welcome) than it is to explain to the wife why you need a new one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ploarbare,

I don't really ever get a final result in one pass - not even when just trying to touch up a previously highly sharp / well convexed/profiled knife that just needs a touch-up.

When just touching up a knife, I still tend to just use a very fine grit and pass about 3-4 times per side and then 2 each, 1 each or similar till how I want it.

When reprofiling, I use more pressure. But, personally, when fine tuning I back off on pressure more and more till I am just lightly grinding. But, that is just me. I can't speak for everyone else. I am sure with different equipment, different belts/grits, different knives (sizes and hardness), etc. techniques could very. Plus, there is often more than one way to do something. I was never taught. I read, practiced and experimented.

If a knife needs a lot of work, it can take a LOT more passes.

I think it is possible to round over an edge. But, not always from pressure. Tightness of belts and angle of blade can be a factor.

Watch out on your tips. A VERY common error is to over-grind the tips. With the wrong technique on certain blade shapes, you can severely alter the tip's shape if you over-grind it - and it can require a LOT of regrinding to fix. So, just watch out for that!!!



I would like to be able to help you on the videos, but I don't have a video camera/recorder.

However, BrianA. made and posted a link to some of the best sharpening videos I have seen at the bottom of page 1.

See: The Backyard Bushman - Convex Knife Sharpening with a Belt Sander - By BrianA. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

+1





+1

But, there are some similar fine grit belts or even better, leather belts loaded with fine honing compounds.

I believe I have posted some info and links somewhere above with more info about honing compounds. These are essential for decent results with a leather strop (IMO).

Some common compounds are black, green, white and pink.

There doesn't seem to be a clear consensus on what grits they are. But, to me (and I am generally guessing here!!!):

Black seems to be around 400-600 grit (???)
Green seems to be around 800-1000 (???)
White seems to be around 1200-2000 (????)
Pink seems to be around 2500 +/- (????)


Again, just guessing bases on what I have seen. But, on a power tool like a belt sander, each grit will provide much faster results than compared to a manual strop.


**** Good quality belts make a big difference. The cheap ones from the hardware store "will" get a lot done. But, once you use good quality belts designed for use on "hardened" steel, you will notice a big difference.

You should know that most of the belts sold at hardware stores are intended for use on "wood". However, in a pinch, they will still work on knives. Just not as efficiently.

**** One little tip I believe I read on some other forum posted by a knife-maker (????). I can't remember who or when, but I have tried it with great results:

If you don't have a fine grit/micron belt, try taking an older belt, turn it inside-out and use the back cloth mesh of the belt to sharpen with. I did not have much success with the backing dry. But, I put some white compound on the back (green or black would work as well - just green and black are more coarse). The white compound on the backing/mesh of an old belt will give you a mirror polish. The right light touch will give you hair-whittling edges! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


******* For the record, while you can shape and sharpen edges with GREAT results by grinding edge first into the belts - as mentioned by Vic, DON'T grind edge first into the back of a belt. The backs of the belts have the seams too easily exposed for the blades edges. The edges will pretty much "instantly" cut through the seam and blow your belt. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I have blown/cut a few belts now. I have yet to be hurt by that, but I HAVE to assume it could be very possible - especially considering holding a SHARP knife. So, I try to avoid it and make sure I always have a secure grip on my knife. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> I don't want a knife ripped from my hand and slung anywhere. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

As always, be careful with power tools and sharp blades..... ANY power tool with sharp blades. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

---------------------


I just checked and some of my links have changed.

For some more strop compound info:



Bark River Compounds @ <a href="http://www.dlttradingcompany.com" target="_blank">http://www.dlttradingcompany.com[/url]</a>

http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com

http://www.classicshaving.com


I haven't tried them yet, but I am very interested in trying some of those diamond pastes at .25 micron and .50 micron. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I don't know how "Grit" compares to "micron". (????)

If anyone has a chart/comparison, I would love to see it posted. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

.

Thanks for the tips - I'm going to practice some more on the cheapo knives and refine the technique a bit. I'm still working on figuring out edge angles (I feel like mine are kind of obtuse, but they seem to work reasonable enough).

Knifeguy - am I correct in reading that you're taking 3 to 4 passes on the touch ups per side in order to go over the full height of the edge? If so, that makes me feel a bit better. The sad thing is, I don't have any cheap 1/4" thick knives to practice reprofiling on (the closest would be the DMDC).

Horndog - as for stropping, I do have some leather belts from Lee Valley, but I haven't obtained any compound yet. I'll probably go with white for most use. The leather belt seems to "flap" a lot, requiring a bit of pressure to keep it from doing so.

One other issue I have is belt deflection when starting at near the choil causing an uneven gring (metal not being taken off in that region). I've watched brian's videos and have tried the "false start" method, but with variable results.

Well, off to more grinding. And working on a sheath for a yardkeeper <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For touch ups, I seldom use the leather belt on the grinder. I use a paddle strop from KSF and green compound that came with it.

I highly recommend the green chromium oxide liquid and powder, as well as their Diamond Spray from Hand American . I have used the compounds from Bark River and just about everywhere else, and while they all work well, none of them are in the same league as the Hand American products. You really don't need the Diamond Spray unless you want to just get ridiculous with your edges, and I only use it on hand strops. The green chromium oxide liquid and powder I use together on my leather belts as well as hand strops and it is very nice!

You need to be careful with the leather belt and don't put a lot of pressure on it or you will round over your edge. If you will try working with the knife closer to a more supported area of the belt(just below top pully or above the platten if you use one) you don't get as much "flop" action in those areas.

I'll give it a go:

180 grit = 80 micron
230 grit = 60 micron
280 grit = 45 micron
320 grit = 40 micron
360 grit = 35 micron
400 grit = 30 micron
500 grit = 20 micron
600 grit = 15 micron
900 grit = 12 micron
1200 grit = 9 micron
1500 grit = 5 micron


NOTE: There are slight variations in grit/micron conversions amoung different manufacturers of abrasive products. The properties I listed above will be very close for the most common seen in the US.

well, i suck at sharpening SR77 steel. I'm used to sharpening carbon steel. I can get any of my other knives hair popping sharp, but this SOD is stumping me. Part of it i think, is i want hair popping sharp, but i use the knife as a chopper so maybe a more blunt edge is better.

My SODLE came reasonably sharp, but I like a more acute convex edge. This edge is still plenty strong for chopping wood (not concrete) and slices quite well. I use a belt sander. It can be done. We have the technology.

Well I think my EZE Sharp might be sold so I am looking at the belt sanders locally. I believe lowes has the Deltas. There are several belt sanders out at a shop of my dads but it is a decent drive and I would like to have a decent set up at home instead of driving out there all the time.

I've cleared a spot in the garage so I'm half way there.

Thank all of you guys for taking the time to post this great info.

Okay, the EZE Sharp was great but now its sold. So I called Lowes and they no longer carry the Delta 1 x 42 belt sanders. I called Home Depot and they had 4 x 3? belt sanders. Harbour Freight doesn't carry anything I think I am going to want. Sears has some belt sanders? Anyone know about them?

You can do a surprising amount with the harbor freight 1" x 30" sander.

I was looking at sharpening equipment from a local supplier and found this.
As I'm a real noob when it comes to sharpening, could I get some advice from
people about the usefulness of this? I think it's more for sharpening chisels
and such.
Thanks all.

It's a Delta Sharpening Center.
This is the write-up for it:
Model 23-710 Delta Industrial Model 23-710 Sharpening Center 1/5HP, 120V motor;
5" diameter, 120-grit aluminum oxide dry wheel, 8" dia., 1000-grit wet wheel,
tool rest base, sliding tool holder, water tank, tool rest, eye shield, wrench
and instruction manual. THE DELTA DIFFERENCE • Powerful 1/5HP 120V induction
motor for a variety of sharpening jobs. • Standard-equipped sliding tool holder
secures lathe turning tools, carving chisels and plane irons; may be used on
wet or dry wheel. • Cast-iron construction minimizes operating vibration for
increased accuracy. • Tool rest base supports the sliding tool holder for
steadier, safer sharpening; adjusts for height and tool angle, and may be
mounted to either the wet or dry wheel. • Dry wheel tool rest adjusts to
compensate for wheel wear; protective eye shield deflects sparks. • Water tank
has adjustment knob for regulating water flow. • Wet wheel has front and rear
splash guards for retaining water spray during operation.. • Base holes for
mounting machine to work bench. • On/off rocker switch has clear plastic, water-
resistant cover. • Balanced 8" dia., 1-000 grit wet wheel for fine grinding; 5"
dia. dry wheel grinds nicked, scratched and pitted tools without damaging
temper. Motor • 1/5 HP Wheel Diameter • 5", 8" MOTOR • 1/5 HP MOTOR CONTROL •
On/off rocker switch WHEELS • Diameter: 10"(254 mm), 5"(127 mm) • Type:
Aluminum Oxide Dry, Wet • Face: 2"(51 mm), 1"(25 mm) • Hole: 1/2", 0.70" •
Speeds: 3450 rpm, 400 rpm OVERALL DIMENSIONS • Width: 16"(406 mm) • Depth:
21"(533 mm) • Height: 13"(330 mm) WEIGHT • 42 1/2 lbs. (19 kg)

how hard is SR77 steel? i think all i'm doing is polishing it....hahhaha

DOTD, nice machine, but as my old pops pointed out to me, more suited for grinding chisel and planer blades. I would get a belt sander myself......

keep in mind i suck at sharpening so i dont know what im talking about in that regard...ahahahaha '

About the only belt grinders I can find here are the 1" X 30" belts. Only
problem: Can't get anything finer than 230 grit belts.

I thought that because this stone was 2 speed, with the slowest being about
400 rpm and a nice fine grit, that it might be ok. I can get one of these
locally for about $200.

I guess i'm just not seeing how you would sharpen a knife on that? looks like a jig fixture to me (is it removable?)

dont get me wrong, thats a nice setup, but i'm not sure (please someone with more experience correct me here) its useful for knives?

again, i could be wrong..... lol

CHEERS!

It's used primarily for chisels and woodcarving tools that have rounded
bevels. The sales guy that was showing it to me said that the jig could
be removed so that it could be used free hand.

I'm not sure about it, but like I said, my choices are limited to what's
available locally unless I go to out of town to find one.

See here: Lee Valley Tools

Thanks Andy.
I found a belt grinder (without motor) for about $90 on there, and
belts up to 9 microns. That is really cool.
I'm going to order that from them next week.

$90 seems high for one without a motor.

Hey Dave, can you not get a Delta SA180 belt sander up there? They usually have them on Amazon or some of the other websites for reasonable prices. I'll be more than happy to handle the shipping for you if that's the problem.

I am going to send you a PM about belt sanders, belts and what not...

In the U.S. it might be, but not up here in Canada my friend.
That's actually pretty reasonable.

Cheers.

Hey Dave, I just sent you a PM with a bunch of info concerning belts and what not.

Delta discontinued the SA180! There isn't another 1x42 belt sander in town. Harbor Freight has the 1x30 and that might be what I'm going to get.

I hope 1" x 42" belts will still be around. I just recently got my Delta. Practicing on machetes with the 1x30 was how I learned to grind. I finished up a machete for a dog today. He wanted the swedge sharpened. It finally stopped raining about an hour ago, so I worked on the swedge in the remaining light of the day. Here it is unsharpened.

And finished.

I thought that was because they were planning on a new model. At least that was what my local dealer told me.


Sure there is. Kalamazoo Industries. You won't find out at Home Depot, but you can find them at places like Product Tool Supply.

I think 1x42 belts will be around for a long time.

B

S.H., Glad that the EZE Sharp was able to give you a couple years of good use. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> But, the belt sander system is so much faster and easier - if you have a decent belt grinder and good quality belts - then "after" you get past the learning curve. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

All of the Lowes and Home Depot's around me have quit carrying "Any" bench-top belt sanders quite a few months ago now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
I haven't seen any "good" options (for knife modifying/sharpening uses!) at my local Sears either. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I looked at Sears.com.

They have a Craftsman 2"x42 for about $129.99. While at a quick glance, a 2"x42" such as that Craftsman might seem like a good option at a good price, I can't recommend it for knives as 2"x42" is HARD to find worthy selection of belts for. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I actually have NOT come across any of the good belts for 2"x42". 2"x48" is a size with a few belt options.


******* Belt size is a VERY worthy consideration when considering which belt sander to choose for knife modifications and sharpening. The best choice by far for belt selection is 2"x72" belts. But, this belt size is cost prohibitive for most people as 2"x72" machines tend to be very expensive. See more below.

The second best choice for good belt selections for knives is 1"x42".

1"x30" is a distant 3rd. VERY few options in 1"x48" that I have come across.

Texas Knife Supply offers a proprietary sized 2.5"x48" belt sander that appears to be a decent machine. But, I have not seen 2.5"x48" belts anywhere except at Texas Knife Supply. I assume Texas Knife Supply has the belts made for their machine. (??????) Considering the unique size, I consider the machine a potential dead-end if Texas Knife Supply decides to quit carrying belts.
However, for those interested, see: Texas Knife Supply Belt Sander

Sears also shows Wilton brands. Sears shows a Wilton 1"x42" model #4002 that looks VERY much like the Delta SA180. *** I wouldn't be at all surprised if they are exactly the same or made in the same place with only very subtle variations. But, the Wilton 1"x42" sells for over $300 vs. about $130 or so for the Delta SA180. So, I would have to recommend searching for a Delta SA180.

Sears also shows a Wilton 2"x42" that again seems like a better value and more machine for the money vs. the Wilton 1"x42", but again, you just can't find a worthwhile selection of belts suitable for working metal in 2"x42". That belt size is just going to offer belts more suitable for woodworking. Although, while not nearly as good as quality belts from online knife-making sources.

Sears and many other hardware stores often offer 4"x36" or 6"x48" belt sanders and such, but these wide belt machines are not generally very versatile for knife-making and again, you just won't find belts suitable for sharpening. I have one I have owned for years for woodworking. They might have some value in flattening out spines or helping to shape handles, but they are just not the best option for most general purpose knife modifications and sharpening.

I assume some local Sears hardware stores "might" possibly carry options other than what is shown online (??????), but based on what is shown online, I don't think Sears has any worthwhile options for general knife modifying and definitely not the best choices for knife sharpening.

There are still a few good belt sander options online through other retailers though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


As Vic says, the little 1"x30" Harbor Freight is a decent / Cheap option. And there are a few sources for decent 1"x30" belts suitable for sharpening and modifying knives.

But, again, the best selection for belts is going to be in 2"x72" and 1"x42".

2"x72" belt sanders are often VERY nice, much higher quality build, very heavy and very expensive. The machining industry uses that size as a common standard size. So, lots of options, but generally because of being geared to the commercial use industry, the 2"x72" machines tend to be too expensive for most of us knife enthusiasts to justify. Variable speed is an option I wish I could afford that is often available on many 2"x72" sanders. But, most of these machines cost around $2,000 - $2,800 or so. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" />

If you don't want to spend, $2,000+ for a belt sander, Grizzly sells probably easily the best "economy" 2"x72" belt sander - Model # G1015 combo 2"x72" belt sander with a buffer on the other side. But, most will probably consider $469.00 shipped ($395.00 + $74.00 shipping) pretty high still.

Grizzly G1015 Belt Sander



The Grizzly G1015 is a very worthy machine and used by MANY knife-makers. The machine also has quite a few modifications and aftermarket parts posted around the web to help make it perform even better for knife-making/modifying, etc.

********* For anyone who uses the Grizzly G1015 or any machine with a buffer on knives, be VERY careful with buffers and knives!!!!! Most knife-makers who know about buffing will tell you that a buffer is the most dangerous tool around knives. The Grizzly has a 14 amp motor at about 1 H.P. - it is pretty stong and heavy duty - like a good table saw motor. Buffing wheels have a serious history of grabbing blades and throwing them - often resulting in serious injury. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

As Brian mentioned, Kalamazoo is another company providing a Great option for belt sanders for knife making and modifying. The 1SM is a quality built machine with 1"x42" belts.



Knifekits.com sells the Kalamazoo 1SM for about $230. See: Knifekits.com Kalamazoo Belt Sander and attachments

Some of the attachments available for the Kalamazoo are pretty inticing for modifications. The Swing plate and horizontal finishing attachment would be great options for modifying handles, choils, folders and MUCH more. But, $230 for the sander and another $200+ for attachments might be a bit much for most people (?????)
Although, for just the base sander, $230 will get you a great basic sander still. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

But, for those who want to keep their machine costs to closer to $125-$150 and have a decent selection of functional belts to choose from, the Delta SA180 is still pretty hard to beat as the most feasible/versatile choice and by far the best bang for the buck for most people.


Delta SA-180




There are links above to some worthy modifications (belt speed/pully mods)! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

DotD,

I ran across this machine a few years ago now. I was somewhat interested as it offers "wet" grinding. So, I researched and considered. But, this and the similar (but much more expensive) Tormek Sharpener are more suited for chisels, planes, etc.

I am sure they can get blades sharp. But, they are less versatile and much more expensive.

For the record, I can get pretty good push-cut edges on my chisels with my belt sander. ... and (probably) much faster than those dedicated machines. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Not to mention availibility for relatively reasonably priced replacement belts and belt grit options for belt sanders vs. those VERY proprietary shaped, very few optinos and VERY expensive stones. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

.

DotD,

I mentioned on an earlier post a few good places to find belts for belt sanders that are much more suitable for knife grinding/sharpening.

Most of the 100, 150 and 220 grit belts are aluminum oxide and geared towards woodworking.


Knife-maker vendors are the best sources for a large selection of quality belts and belts geared towards working with hardened steel.



For "some" good sources for Belts see:


Lee Valley Belts

Jantz Knife Supply

Texas Knife Supply - Sanding Belts

Pop's Knife Supply - Sanding Belts

I think it was Snotpig who had good luck with the premium belts from here:

McMaster-Carr - Sanding belts


.

SCORE! I ordered a SA180 from Ace Hardware, for drum roll please...109.99. It should be here Friday no shipping. Also, Delta has a 5 year warranty too so that is a big plus. So now I need to order a few belts.

Well, I'm taking the drop! I went to the Kalamazoo website, and requested a quote on their basic 1"x42" belt sander, and the quote back was $230USD.. shipped. So, I'll save up and not spend any cash on drinking for the next few weeks, and order this and have it sent to me. Then, I'll follow the other link you guys put up to Lee Valley, and order some micron and leather belts for it. I'll practice doing convex edges on a couple cheap Cold Steel machetes I have, and see how I do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

I can't afford to purchase much from the US these days. The exchange rate on
the dollar and the high cost of shipping items just plain makes things much
to expensive for me.

Lee Valley is in Canada, so I'm going to get belts from them

Cheers

Do you really spend 115 a week on booze <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />? Sounds like a Busse man.

My SA180 "should" be here Friday and I ordered several belts that "should" be here Friday or Saturaday.

I have stacks of lessor quality kitchen knives to practice on, a few cheap hunting knives of my brothers and then on to my SOD. My wife will be so pleased to have sharp cutlery. I'll be pleased to not spend 4 hours making them sharp <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

You guys forgot to tell me not to get my fingers to close to the belts.


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

Yow!!!
I'm hoping that this isn't an X-ray of "your" hand...would make me re-think
getting this belt grinder <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Nope, not me, but it is the image I think of every time I think about getting one.

Note I said a few weeks, not a couple! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> $230USD comes to about $290 CAD; so I save for 5 weeks, not spending the roughly $75 I spend a week hanging out at the Ranks (Drinking mess) after work with the guys, and I'll have the cash to buy the belt sander and pay for the duty on it as well.

I like my beer, but can't afford $115USD a week! Yeesh, you'd think I have stock in Busse Incorporated to afford that! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I can't wait to get it and start practicing my skill at convexing on a sander. The ability to buy leather belts to put on it as well has me drooling, thinking how much easier it'll be to strop an edge back onto my blades! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Knife Guy, thanks for posting the link to Brian's site.


Brian, I have watched all of your videos! Thanks for taking the time to get all that info up.

The method of moving from hilt to tip is very similar to how you would on a sharpening wheel too.


Leather belts must be soexpensive as only a certain animal has that circumference <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

[/quote]




Leather belts must be soexpensive as only a certain animal has that circumference <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. [/quote]

Oh Vey! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

DAAaaaang!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> GREAT score / GREAT price..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> ....... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Ted.... you always seem like a great guy...But,...... "PLEASE" DON'T show me that type of stuff!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />



Although, fair warning to all. Be carefull with power tools and sharp blades. They "CAN' be dangerous.

.

Oh Vey! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]

+1 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

Your welcome, but Brian deserve's the credit. He did a GREAT job with his videos. Brian has helped me on a few sharpening ventures as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

Eh, you ought to be able to grab a Texas snake and use that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Any chance you can provide a link???? - I pulled up Ace Hardware and couldn't find it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />