This is a topic that comes up a lot on the internet, but I'd love to hear what my fellow Dogs are using!

Here are my questions:

1) What is your SHTF rifle?

2) Why did you choose this rifle?

3) Would you take something else if TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it) was going to happen?



Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. If you're feeling particular ambitious - please post pictures! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Either my Colt AR15A3 with a 4X beeman Air Rifle scope (rated for full automatic fire) or my L1a1 cause it's a battle rifle .308.

My reasoning: Cause they are what I've got.

OR I could use my 600 Mohawk. Goes without saying my sawed off 20ga mossy will be there somehow.

1)All I have is a Mossin M44, I like it a lot, but it is not a true shtf rifle.



2)It is what I got, and it was only $92

2.5) I honestly think the 7.62nato and similar sized rounds are needed to cover every possiable requirement for surviving TEOTWAWKI. 5.56nato and 7.62x39 are great but lose so much energy at longer distances. Also the 7.62nato gives more options in turning cover in to concealment.

3)My dream rifle would be a Springfield SOCOM 16, with a low power scout scope on a quick-detach mount and that is all I would want to keep the already heavy gun as light as possiable

3.5)My runner up to the socom would be a 16 in FAL patterned rifle, with same scout scope set up and a folding stock so the whole rifle could be dropped in a regular hiking backpack.

(Disclaimer, I have no SHTF or TEOTWAWKI experience these are just my ramblings, wishes, and opnions)

Thanks for the responses.

I'm torn as I have a few options...DSA FAL Para, Sig556, Colt AR15, Arsenal SLR-106FR (223 AK), Springfield M1A, Ruger Mini-30.

Each has its strengths and weaknesses, and I can't decide what's best.

Wow you do have some great options Arch.
What rifle is most reliable with only field maintenance?
What rifle do you have the most ammo and mags and a system to carry said ammo and mags?
Where do you live? will long shots say 500m plus be a possibility/necessity?
The AR, Ak, and SIG (mabey the mini-30) will mostly be the lightest to carry and therefore you would have less difficulty covering terrain steep or flat.
The M1A and FAL are no doubt battle rifles, but they weigh much more.
Is oal an issue, Will CQB be a possibility? in and out of buldibngs, a boat, a car etc. if so the shortest one you got may be best.
In a post-apocalyptic world (your area where you live) what round will be easiest to find 7.62x39, .223, or .308?
Dose the AK, Mini-30, FAL, or SIG fold? to be hid in a backpack or something.
If the M1A or Mini-30 are wood stocks then with lower-cap mags they will look less (evil) and not draw unwanted attention.

Tough choice.

Yugoslavian AK-47. Stone reliable.

Good choice HD. I also have a 7.62x39mm AK that is very reliable (forgot to list it above).

James Bond - those are the same questions I've been mentally debating for quite a number of years.

a .22 or a galil variant...for obvious reasons.

.22 allows easy carry of ALOT of ammo, fairly quiet, and easy to find.

a galil variant in .223/5.56 purely for reliability and ability to carry more ammo than a 7.62

plus, if needed to get food, a .22 wont destroy much meat

1. Bushmaster ar15, 20" barrel with flat top reciever, with aimpoint

2. .223 is common, can carry more rounds than .30 cal., very accurate rifle and light

3. Ruger mark III .22 cal pistol

Most likely my SKS, though I do have other choices. Reliable and capable of ten rounds at a time, it should handle anything that might present itself. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Realisticlly probably an Ar-15. I always have one at work. I have one at home. I have been using that platform for over 25 years.

There are guns I like better but the Ar is second nature for me.

M16A4 or M4A1. I am well accustom to both of these rifles since I train with them and carry them when in bad places. You didn't ask, but I'll take a 1911 for back up.

JB - Sure, it's a tad limited on reload and ROF, but that rifle is completely idiot proof (I oughtta know, I am one), and stupidly reliable. My M 91-30 Sniper goes bang every time I pull the trigger, and that's all it needs to do. Not my go to if the dead start walking, but it'll keep them off the perimeter no doubt. I love the fireball the carbines throw out!



Oh boy... where to start?

Had to upload a few new ones to photobucket, I repainted the M14, and added some killer glass to it, hehehe. Candace is only 2 components shy of being completely set up the way I want her (I'm sure I can find something else to bolt on though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

My Ideal perimeter rifle. I was also considering adding an offset rail and a MRD to her, tilt the rifle sideways and boom, tough actin' Tinactin, CQB capable. The SEI Vortex flash hider actually cut nearly 2 inches from the rifle overall, and she handles amazingly well in house clearing. Not unlike handling a full length M16, IMO. She's my baby, I love her, and She's going to be slung on my shoulder, period. She's also the only rifle I own that I've named, it'd be like leaving behind a daughter. I also updated the paint job slightly, added more tan and made the pattern irregular. Blends beautifully with my ACUs.


Just prior to mounting the glass:


My Sidearm of choice, my Custom Taurus PT-1911 in .45 ACP. I've got the factory bushing installed right now, because the aftermarket stainless contoured bushing adds a fair bit of weight up front and changes the way it points. It's great for recoil control, but I snap shoot a bit low for point of impact. I'd rather have a good point than a low impact in home defense. Primary mag is 7 rounds, +1 in the tube, Pow'r'Ball +p+ ammo. Secondary is 7 rounds of Remington Golden Sabres. Nasty on top of Nasty, hehehe.



And in the event of a lack of ammunition for my weapon of choice, I have options.

SLR-106F in 5.56, stock configuration. I'm torture testing this one, probably will never see a malfunction, it even eats the wolf steel cased crap no problems.


My SGL-21, Russian Saiga converted by Arsenal (I believe you also have one of these right Architect?), with a few upgrades. Krebs Custom Rear sight Rail and modified safety, and an M16 A2 stock (for now.) I'm going to drop in an M4 stock when I can afford it, but for now I make due with what I got for free, lol.


I really like toying with my firearms, it's a hobby right now, but it saves me a ton of money. I've never sent a firearm to a gunsmith for anything.

My M 91-30 sniper, well, most of it...



...and the rest of it: the lightswitch is chest high on me, I'm 5'7".


and I have a .22, great little meat getter.


If I had my way, I'd throw every one in the back of the truck and pop smoke. Candace is a certainty, she will be with me when the world ends, and it's a good bet the two AKs will be as well, since they'd allow me to use almost whatever ammo I could find. The 91-30 could stand in in case the glass failed on the M14, and the .22 would defintely help in potting small game. Can't use the rifles if you can't eat right? If I had to choose ONLY one, I could make Candace work for almost anything, including CQB.

I'm jealous of anyone with an M-14! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

El Caca,

I own three of the rifles in your post...

* Arsenal SGL-21 (7.62x39mm AK-103)
* Arsenal SLR-106FR (5.56x45mm AK-101)
* Springfield Armory M1A (7.62x51mm M14)

(The parenthetical info is for anyone reading this that is just learning what options they have.)

My SLR has the receiver optic rail though, and my SGL is bone stock.

All three are sensible choices.

Oh yeah, I'm shooting the SLR in my avatar (LOL)!

Yeah, I'm definitely a gearhead, always looking for some new toy to bolt onto a rifle. I'm REALLY happy with the Krebs Rail on the SGL-21, the M16A2 style peep sight at the rear of the rail is simply tremendous. I shot a ragged one hole group at 100 yds after zeroing the sights, with cheap yugo brass cased surplus. Couldn't be happier with the sights now, and it makes for a rock solid attachment point for an optic. Now, I just need to figure out which one I want...

ECF,

How does the Krebs rail affect field stripping?

I can't figure out how to post the images (how friggin' frustrating after an hour of trying - never again):

Armalite AR 10
Remington 700 VSF
Benchmade 172 (my TEOTWAWKI canopener).

Bill

MPete, I have am Rem 700VLS heavy 26 inch barrell and it will shoot even with cheap surples ammo! I could probably shoot the legs off a gnat at 13000 yards! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Skunkhunter - 3" groups @ 300 yards - with the vsf / heavy barrel. It kicks [censored]!
I'll never let it go.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

MP

Out of what you have...M1A no question! If shtf I want to hide...not engage. Then again if maybe I was planning on staying at my house I'd go with one of the others.

What can you get parts for? What can have work done to it easiest? Are we talking LA riots or head for the hills?

Imagine,

My plan is to stay put (bug in). However, something could happen that would require us to leave our suburban neighborhood for parts unknown.

I don't think parts will be available after TEOTWAWKI. There might be the occasional M4 / M16 magazine laying around some battlefield that everyone missed as they scavenged the site after the fact, but I'm going to assume that regular commerce (and weapons in particular) will be gone.

Hmm, so reliability is a must.

This all kind of makes you think... What would likely cause TEOTWAWKI?

Doesn't change it in the slightest. There is an AR-15 style detent pin at the rear of the assembly that pushes out, and allows a piece to be moved rearward, releasing the rail from the Dollhead, and the whole rail swivels up out of the way. It also maintains zero beautifully, especially mounted on a well built AK like the SGL. One complaint I have, being a shooter with glasses, is with the standard Warsaw length stocks, from the prone position the rear sight tended to tap my glasses just a bit under recoil. I planned on switching out stocks anyways, so it doesn't bother me, but for some it might be a pain. I actually completed the install with no workbench, no vise, and minimal handtools. All one needs to install it is some mechanical knowledge and common sense.

I have a bad feeling it will be a self fulfilling prophecy, someone with thier finger on a button thinking they're supposed to do it. probably at the end of the Mayan Calendar.

My theory: The guy who was writing the Mayan Calendar just got bored with it and went to do something else (or died?)

Reliability and simplicity are absolute neccessities for a TEOTWAWKI weapon. My AK tears down into a total of 5 parts field stripped, about 12 for a thorough teardown, and maybe 20 parts if I pulled apart the clockwork and internals too. It also offers a decent rate of fire, and a reputation of being bombproof. The fewer components there are, the less there is to go wrong.

El Caca,

I've owned AR15 type rifles continuously since 1984. In those 26 years I've had MANY other types of semi-auto "military style" rifles:

* AK47 (Bulgarian, Chinese, Egyptian, Hungarian, Yugoslavian)
* ArmaLite AR180
* Beretta AR70
* Daewoo AR100
* Daewoo K2
* FAL (DSA and Imbel)
* FN49
* Heckler & Koch HK91
* Heckler & Koch HK93
* IMI Galil 386
* M1 Carbine
* M2 Carbine (Class 3 - Full Auto)
* M1 Garand
* Sig Sauer Sig556
* SKS
* Springfield Armory M1A (Bush, Scout, SOCOM, Standard, Match)
* Steyr AUG
* Valmet 76 Folder* Valmet 76 Folder
* OTHERS

BUT....I could never let go of my comfort level and the superb ergonomics of the AR15 design.

Eventually, I sold all of my high dollar preban "exotics" and decided the AR15 would be my go-to gun for the rest of my life.

Then about a year ago my fears about the AR's "poop where it eats" design started to weigh heavily on me again. This has always been my main concern about the design.

That lead me to buy a couple of AK's (I was down to my Colt AR15's, DSA FAL and Sig556).

After the SGL21 and SLR106 arrived my first impression was very very high. A lot of the crudity of manufacture I had endured on previous AK's was absent, and the accuracy was much better than previous guns.

The AK's BASIC design still leaves a lot to be desired (no bolt hold open, crappy safety location / operation, and short sight radius). HOWEVER, having trained fairly extensively with one now, I can say that your assessment is dead on:

The idiot proof simplicity and bombproof construction are the reasons I've decided to keep my SLR106FR in the "goto" slot.

I moved it there after using it in a carbine class, but started to wonder about my Sig556's superior accuracy and ergo's. I also started to think about the "keep the enemy at bay" capabilities of my M1A. However, reliability issues have made me decide against either of those designs.

In the end, the single most important feature of a gun is very simple for me:

It must fire. It must do so repetitively under adverse conditions. It must be simple and easy to maintain. It must require little maintenance.

The above is the definition of an AK.

Accuracy is important, but the sorts of engagements I envision myself in do NOT require gilded accuracy. I will try to avoid conflict at all costs so "reaching out" would never be an option for me. The only engagements I can see being unavoidable are all within the 200 meter range.

What do you guys think of Rock River's AR15?

Bill

Bill,

The price difference between a Rock River and either BCM or Colt isn't that big.

Buy a BCM (Bravo Company) or Colt. Daniel Defense makes a decent AR15 type rifle too.


http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p...amp;output=html

It will have to work....

I think that'll handle it's business just fine Smokering.

I am a fan, no doubt, of the AK design, but I won't downplay a well maintained AR. I was one of the few privates who never had a malfunction with thier weapon in basic, largely because I went into basic knowing to keep the thing clean. Even with a REALLY old worn out Colt M16A2, it still ran just fine, although the sears were pretty worn out and the three shot burst was more of a slow bap bap bap then a Burp like the newer FNs. A clean AR is a Happy AR. and with modern dry lubricants, the moondust in the middle east becomes less of an issue, and stateside I find debris malfunctions almost non-existant. Setting aside the beauracracy factor, the M16 isn't a terrible weapon, it just has a few kinks, nothing that can't be worked around. Hence why it's still around 50 years later.

Wanna know what Eugene Stoners solution to the extraction issues in the M16 was? Beef up the extractor clip, and add a second spring to it. No piston systems, no anti tilt bolt carriers, yada yada yada. I think if Eugene Stoner had that kind of confidence in his weapon, I can afford it the same.

Bill- A friend of mine owns a Rock River, I've shot it a few times now, and can't find anything bad about it, it's solid, doesn't rattle, and the only malfunctions it had were bad mags. They're a bit pricey for my tastes, especially for a DGI system, but a solid offering, and largely mil-spec parts. I particularly like thier proprietary rail systems, the half picatinny and half smooth handgaurds, they feel nice in the hand with the stock extended, and with the Magpul angled foregrip, it's FAST with the stock collapsed. Not a bad way to go if you want an AR.

El Caca,

Rock River Arms products are not mostly mil-spec. In fact, the following parts are NOT mil-spec

* Barrel material (4140)
* Standard without chrome lined bore (chrome is now an option though)
* Batch MPI barrel testing
* Bolts are not shot peened
* Batch MPI bolt testing
* Receiver extension is 1.17"
* Receiver extension is 6160 extruded
* Castle nut is not staked
* Gas key is improperly staked
* Standard twist rate is 1/9 (1/7 is optional)

Those are just the issues that pop into my head.

The price difference between a BCM or Colt and RRA is about $150-200. I'd spend the extra money.

I've owned 15 Rock Rivers and 27 Colts. I still have two Colts.

I stand corrected, I didn't know that many things weren't mil-spec. Thanks Arch

No problem El Caca - I wasn't trying to be a male sexual organ, but there is a lot of incorrect information about the various AR manufacturer's practices floating around the internet.



Thought of another couple of non-milspec RRA issue:

* Earlier rifles did not have the proper height "F Marked" front sight base - this makes setting the rear sight elevation difficult without replacing the front sight post.

* Rifle feed ramps instead of M4 ramps.

* Regular CAR buffer instead of H buffer.



I get asked a lot of questions about AR15 type rifles. Mostly since people around me know that I've owned and built them for the past 26 years. No AR "manufacturer" that I know of creates 100% of their own parts. Most "AR manufacturers" are actually "AR assemblers". They make some of their own parts, but outsource the majority of the actual manufacturing. Therefore, there are only two ways an AR Company can by competition in a saturated market:

1) Cut cost on assembly and quality control.

2) Buy seconds or lower quality components.

I guess there is a "third" strategy, but its more subjective:

3ish) Market products to a specific market niche. For example, Remington's AR (which is built by Bushmaster) is marketed toward hunters. Rock River Arms markets its products toward the aestetic or "tight tolerance" market.

No civilian AR15/M4 product is 100% milspec, because:

A) It has no giggle switch.
B) It does not have a removable flash suppressor mounted on a 14.5" barrel.

Some "milspec" issues are more important than others. For example....

* Proper barrel steel - this doesn't apply as much to civilians because they do not have full auto capabilities.

* MPI barrel testing - this is very important because it will detect imperfections in your barrel's structure. These imperfections typically won't affect a hobby shooter while running 90 rounds through his rifle at the range, but it might be an issue for a volume shooter or someone that is forced to "abuse" his rifle in a SHTF situation.

* MPI bolt testing and bolt shot peening - CRITICAL ISSUE!!!! The M4 bolt takes a beating. You need the best!

* F-Marked front sight - this is necessary for proper elevation adjustments.

* 1.14" 7075T6 forged receiver extension - if you bend / dent / or break your "buffer tube" the AR will not run. The milspec tube is stronger.

* M4 feed ramps - this helps cycle reliability.

Two more CRITICAL issues:

* Properly staked gas key

* Properly staked castle nut

I will tell you who builds one of the best AR's for the buck aside from BCM is Spikes. I have gotten some components and lowers and these guys are impressive.

You can spend a ton for a quality AR but you don't have too.

MB, agreed.

I've not used Spikes products, but I know people who have (and are very pleased).

A "tier one" M4 build should not cost more than $1000 in today's market.....

BCM Blem Lower Group = $265 Delivered
BCM MidLength Upper Group with BCG / CH = $535
MagPul MOE Hanguards = $35
LMT Rear BUIS = $75 (average ARFCOM pricing)

$910 for an AWESOME AR type rifle.

If you want to buy a factory built "tier one" you should be able to get it for $1100ish. There have been a couple of Colt 6920's for under $1100 recently online.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You don't see a lot of people rocking the G43 as a SHTF gun.

Niiiice! I would be afraid to use that in all but the most DIRE situations though, it's such a valuable rifle. That's a beauty though Pit, no joke. 8mm Mauser has a lot of punch up close too, with a nearly 200 grain projectile, and it wouldn't be too terribly difficult to find I'd venture, it's a pretty common hunting round around here. People use a lot of sporterized Mausers at the ranges around here.

Surplus 8mm (7.92x57mm) is still widely available. Unfortunately, its all corrosive. A friend had a G43 back in the 80's. There are very rare.

They had one on the shelf for a while at my local mom & pop Gun Store (where I purchased every firearm I own), and it was selling for a little over 2 grand. It was in amazing shape too, stock had the original finish, practically intact, and only a few nicks and scratches. The Nazi proof marks were fully intact as well, and very clear. I would have loved to have owned that rifle, its historical value was tremendous.

Its been bugging me that I had not posted any tools yet, so here's a few samples.
If I was to go mobile, these would probably go in the truck.

If moving about in an urban enviroment one of these would do. Tough to choose.

If I made it to the hills and needed more range and Big Game ability this would do.

For me, if I had to move (BO) AR would be hard to beat. I prefer a pencil barrel with light weight accessories. Lots of ammo can be carried for it. If I am bugging in, I think it is hard to beat the FAL. Lots of punch for the size.

Doc

Nice toys Hooker!

What ammo can you guys find for less 7.62x39 or 5.56/.223? I've noticed .223 has come down alot.

Best deals seem to on 7.62x39 right now.

I'm digging that Norinco Hooker, nice rifle. I don't think I've seen any of those for sale around here. come to think of it, I've never even seen any Chinese AKs for sale around town...

a few questions for you, I can't quite read it, but does that mount on your second AK (Polish?) say Guntech? I've never seen that mount before. Is it solid? How much did it run you? I'm in the market for one for my Arsenal SLR-106, no other mounting solution will work for it so upper handgaurd rail it is.

And how does the 40 rounder for your FAL run? I've heard there are sometimes issues with lack of spring tension in that length mag.

Wally world has a smoking deal on 55 grain FMJs in .223, I think 4 ten spots for 100 rds in a value pack. The pricier ammo is going to be the Mil-spec 5.56, though I don't know why, I prefer my .223 A-MAX ballistic tips to mil steel core penetrator. Unless the russians or chinese invade us, I honestly don't forecast fighting armored infantry.

7.62x39 new production is really cheap right now, as long as you buy it by the case. CtD has good prices, although I noticed Wolf ammo went up. It all depends on where you look and what type of ammo you're buying specifically. MIL-surp russian ammo tends to be stupidly cheap, but it's corrosive.

Can anyone tell me why 5.56 NATO green tip is so popular and almost a dollar a shot??? I can't for the life of me figure out why people buy it up like hotcakes, when any 62 grain varmint round will do as well if not better ballistically.

The Chinese AKS is a "pre ban" B West import. Pretty rare, I understand. The second AK is an Lancaster/armory USA, 1982,Polish or Romanian, not sure, would have to look it up.
The Guntech USA mount was picked up at the fun show for about 20-25 bucks. It fits pretty snug but I had planned to drill and tap some set screws to lock it in. Well, as it turns out, it sits so high that you can't get a propper cheek weld,and it blocks the iron sights, with the red dot removed. So its gonna go into the junk box soon. I'm convinced the hot set up would be a Burris FastFire mounted between the stock and reciever. It would need to be on a picatinny for fieldstripping. If they don't make a mount soon, I'm sure I could fabricate something.
The magazine in the 18" AZEX/Imbel FAL is a 30rnd. Canadian L1A1 mag. Works well but sometimes hangs up a little when removeing from the mag. well. Needs to be fitted a little.

Right now? R-25 in a .243 win because that's what I have. I am saving for a FN SCAR-17. I handled one the other day and almost went back home and emptied my safe to see what I could trade in to get one.

Any opinions on the FN SCAR-17?

If I had more ammo, I'd love to bring along my Remington 700 in .257 Weatherby. It's the gun that I shoot the best at longer ranges. 300 yard shots are becoming easier and easier on coyotes and like sized targets.

Thanks hook, I'll learn from your experience and say no on that one., I didn't pay 900$ for the AK to not have back up irons. I don't know how easy it would be to find, but for a short while Larue Tactical was producing what they called the AK Irondot. It was/is a replacement rear sight unit with rear sight blade and provisions to mount a Burris Fastfire. It was DIRT cheap too, 289$ if I'm not mistaken, with the mini. I guess it didn't sell as well as it should have (it allowed for cowitnessing of the iron sights too), and they stopped selling on the website. Might be able to track one down on the secondary market though, but no telling how much it'll cost. I REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted one, but by the time I had saved up enough, they had yanked it... So I bought my Deregulator with the money and blew the rest on ammo, hehe!

The rail I have installed on my SGL-21 might be something you'd be interested in Hook, but it's a tad pricey. I've referenced it some 3 times in this thread already, so I won't repeat myself. Don't want to sound like an advertisement.

K- I love the Scar-17, the newest releases have an ambi charging handle now, instead of one you could switch back and forth, and I really wish the Army would remove thier heads from thier 4 points of contact and issue them to us. 40,000 rounds with no lube and a big fat goose egg for malfunctions? Come on?! no brainer! The price point is the killer for me though, ain't no way no how I'd be able to get one until the price comes down out of the upper atmosphere.

Thanks for the info. I'll keep a lookout for that iron dot. There has to be some better options out there. I have not been as in tune with the gun market latley. Kind of reached a saturation point on firearms and spending the extra funds on the Bussekin addiction.
Was very interested in the SCAR 16 & 17, but crazy prices presently. And waiting on more feedback of the new design. Some people seem to have concerns of the strength of the folding stocks. Debating letting one of the ARs go to fund it. The one FAL is a keeper though. It's just so sexy, IMO.

I fired a SCAR16 at a carbine class recently. It was the instructor's rifle, and he isn't overly impressed by it (nor am I). I find it funny that AR15 aficionados hate AR polymer lowers, but think the SCAR is the best thing since indoor plumbing (even though it has a plastic lower).

I've fondled about a half dozen different SCAR16's (no 17's yet), and they really don't impress me for the $2400 price tag.

I took my Sig556 Classic to the range last night (in the rain) and ran 170rds of Wolf ammo through it in less than 30 minutes. Lube was cooking off the barrel. I had zero malfunctions, and it took about 6 minutes to clean it (again - this was dirty Wolf ammo). This rifle was $1200 with Sig diopter sights.

Is the SCAR series 2x the rifle? I don't think it is.

Thanks for the input Arch. Would you consider a SCAR-17 a Tier 1 weapon?

Kuanomar,

I would not define the SCAR program as T1 yet. Only firearms that have exemplified performance over time (as to not be a statical anomaly) are Tier 1 to me. For example, the BCM MidLength AR15 type rifle is definitely Tier 1 as is the Glock 17 and Remington 870 Police (a parkerized Wingmaster - therefore no MIM critical parts found on the lower 870 models).

Internet conjecture and other sources (various magazines) have stated that "Operator Confidence" in the SCAR-16 was lower than expected as was the increased performance over the M4A1 SOCOM. Anticipated "Operator Confidence" was higher in the SCAR-17 mainly due to the cartridge. Many comments of broken parts on the SCAR-16 have been noted and the subsequent concern over durability is a factor.

Logically, it would follow that the SCAR-17 could suffer from some of the same issues. The SCAR-16 has been much more widely fielded, and therefore has to serve as the statical base.

I certainly appreciate your interest in a T1 7.62x51mm rifle! However, at this point the only T1 "308" is definitely the mighty FAL!

ETA: Only original Brazilian Imbel (imported by Springfield Armory during the 1980's), original Argentinian FSL (imported by Springfield Armory in the late 1980's), DSA manufactured before 2008 (full SA58 not their STG58 Parts Guns - remember ALL of their receivers are marked SA58 therefore you must investigate which parts they used to build the rifle! They will tell you on the phone if you have the serial number. The full new rifles have a lifetime warranty while the parts guns do not), and of course FN made FAL's (remember later FN FAL's used cast upper receivers - I would not purchase one of these) are truly "T1". I dismiss "FrankenFAL" builds from Enterprise, Dan Coonan, Century, IAI, etc automatically. The "Gunplumber" (Mark Graham at Arizona Response Systems aka ARS) use to build outstanding FAL's from quality receivers and parts kits.

Arch,

Thank you!!! Your response addressed the questions that I had and then some. I appreciate the time that you take to answer questions regarding firearms.

I have had several semi-auto .308's from DPMS, Remington (actually it was also a rebadged DPMS), and Rock River. I've handled the FNAR, M1A in various iterations, a FAL (I cannot remember who made it) and finally the SCAR-17. Simply based on ergos, the SCAR-17 felt the best.

However, if this is going to be a go to rifle, ergo's are only part of the equation. Reliability, accuracy and availability of ammo, magazines and spare parts important considerations as well. And your response addressed reliability very well.

I think that my main draw to the SCAR-17 is ergos and the ability to switch the barrel and have a .243 win (my favorite coyote cartridge).

I really should get an older FN FAL for a SHTF Battle Rifle. In fact, I most definately will. But, I have a chance at a killer deal on a SCAR-17 that I cannot pass on.

Thanks for helping me sort out my thoughts. This thread is a SHTF battle rifle thread so, you have helped me identify exactly what I need for that. Fret not, Arch, your response has not been in vain. I will pick up a FAL for my SHTF rifle. Now off to find gun plumber.

Kuanomar,

You will not get "gilded" accuracy from any FAL. They are "combat accurate" weapons that can benefit from one of the "refined" rear sight options available from DSA. As a "base unit" they are less accurate than a typical AR15 or M1A. However, excluding static "offensive / sniper" type activities they are more than sufficiently accurate for combat applications.

You mentioned an appreciation for 243. DSA makes (or made) a 243 FAL.

Arch, since you are our "Resident expert", and I mean that in the most flattering way, here is what I've got. WHAT (how good)have I got?
The receiver is marked
L1A1 sporter cal .308
Receiver made by IMBEL Brazil
Importede by CAI St. Alb UT.

I got rid of that stupid thubhole stock and put on the "regular" pistol grip and buttstock. I have also added the FN flash hider and a B Square scope mount rail. It has the regular post and wings front mount and a flip up rear mount.

If I remember correctly I paid $395 for it about 15 years ago. Is it worth having and do you think I got took? It shoots ok, but as you have said is not sniper accurate, but for a battle rifle I think it does ok. Now it can't hold a candle to my AR15A3 but then I don't expect it to.

Randy,

It sounds like you own a Century International Arms assembled FAL parts gun. Century's "bread and butter" has always been buying foreign surplus weapons (and importing them for re-assembly into civilian legal configurations - usually with a replacement receiver).

Your rifle most likely was is the following:

* Assembled by Century.
* Consists of a mix of used parts (from various guns, country of origin, etc. For example you have an INCH pattern barrel and a METRIC pattern upper reciever).
* Was built on an Imbel (imported from Brazil) upper receiver.

THE BAD NEWS <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" />

1) Century has never been known for quality control. In fact, they are known for the opposite.

2) Your parts might or might not have been in sound condition before Century refinished your "build".

3) You probably did NOT replace the necesarry foreign made parts to LEGALLY permit the conversion you described. Section 922r states that a firearm (made / imported after '89) cannot be comprised of more than 10 foreign made parts.

Per 922r the FAL has the following parts:

1) Magazine Body
2) Magazine Follower
3) Magazine Floor Plate
4) Receiver (Upper)
5) Barrel
6) Bolt
7) Bolt Carrier
8) Op Rod
9) Gas Piston
10) Hammer
11) Trigger
12) Sear
13) Muzzle Device
14) Buttstock
15) Handguards
16) Pistol Grip
17) Trigger Housing (Lower Receiver)

You can have any TEN of the above parts of foreign origin and be legal. However, the moment you introduce #11 you are in violation of manufacturing an illegal weapon.

THE GOOD NEWS <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

A) It is nearly impossible to foul up a FAL build. Literally anyone can do it.

B) Your "Type 3" Imbel upper receiver is the heart of the rifle, and considered by many to be the best FAL reciever ever made.

C) You've owned it 15 years, and it hasn't gone KABOOM yet so you're likely okay.

Probably looked like this originally?


This is a typical Century Arms L1A1 Sporter from the described time period:

Why Yes it did. How'd you do that? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's not the most accurate. I had a scope on it but it wouldn't stay zeroed so I took it off. It shot ok without the scope and I have I figure a couple hundred rounds through it and the only Kaboom sent a projectile out the little end! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thank you.

later to the party but it is always changing. Now that I have my Para FAL set-up the way I want it I think it is it for now. Then again, it could be an AR, or a lever gun in a couple different flavors. A lot of it depends on the situation and time of the year. Carrying a MBR vs an AR is a lot of difference.

Jeff - agreed. There is a huge difference between lugging around a MBR and a LW M4 type.

My SHTF/TEOTWAWKI rifle would be one of my FAL clones, probably my R1.
My reasoning is I have spare parts kits to keep them running for quite awhile, plus they'll reach out and touch someone with power to spare. I bought my fair share of surplus ammo back when it was plentiful and cheap along with a quite a few magazines.
That rifle is accurate and utterly reliable.
Sidearm would be a Colt Double Eagle .45acp
Knife has to be my ScrapYard Regulator.

DJ, that sounds good.

DJ,

The Colt Double Eagle is a rare bird, and oddly enough I saw a used one in our local Gander Mountain THIS WEEK!

Your FAL choice is honestly VERY VERY hard to argue with. If I were stronger or ammo was lighter - I probably wouldn't own anything else!

Architect, the DE indeed a rare one and I found it laying used in the display case at Grice Gun Shop in Clearfield Pa about 10 years ago. It had only been there a day or so and I knew it wasn't going to be there for very long. Needless to say, I jumped on it.
I'll bet that one you saw at Gander Mountain was pricy....
The FAL bug bit me about 15 years ago and oh baby, it bit hard. I started out with a Century L1A1 that wasn't very reliable. To make a long story short, I had it rebuilt on an Imbel reciever and she really shoots now. I bought 2 more Gear-logo Imbel recievers and had a South African R1 built by Arizona Expert Arms in 2000 then a year or so later I found an absolutely beautiful German G1 kit. I had AZEX build that one for me too.
I have AR's but the FAL is my "go to" rifle.

I have been putting quite a lot of thought into this over the last 2 years. I noticed that when our family went to Disney World this summer that my Maxpedition fanny pack was searched in every crevice, every time we passed through a gate. People with much bigger bags were barely glanced at. It kind of made me think. If I am bugging out am I going to be walking around holding my rifle? Would this make me even more of a target from whatever law enforcement may be left, not to mention gangs of bad guys that might want to take what my family has? As I understand it, during Katrina they were disarming citizens (I wasn't there though). For that reason I have kind of stopped considering anything that can't go into a pack as a bug out rifle.

I have trained with the AR15/M4 style for years so that feels right to me. I have never had a malfunction with an M4 or AR15 including a 1000 rd carbine course where I intentionally did not clean the action of my Bushmaster for the week long course, only added Break Free, because the instructor made me mad by putting down my Bushmaster. I have also been to their armorers school and have spare parts so that helps ease my mind. I never liked the feel of the AK but to those that do, I can see why you would take it.

Although I really like my Sigs, I would probably take a Glock for SHTF. primarily for lighter weight weapon and next because of durability and ease of parts replacement.

Hey DJ, Like your sig line.

Mine could be "Proud Air Force Retiree"!
(Now Tom and JJ will probably jump all over this, but they're only jealous,they were/are Marines!)

Thanks SkunkHunter! My son just got promoted to Staff Sargeant and transfered from Nellis AFB to Dyess AFB in Texas.
When he was at Nellis, during a Red Flag, he was working with a Marine Squadron and he says they sorta adopted him....

Adopted by a bunch of Marines! NO!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I retired an E6. Refused to put on E7, I WANTED OUT! Tried to get out at 19 and they wouldn't let me. POLITICS! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> (I retired in '94, 20 years 1 month and 16 days).

Sorry for the hijack, you can have it back now.

Ok, imagine this. Suppressed 22 semi auto.

IF you're bugging out, you DO NOT want to be spotted by others any more than necessary. By having a "mouse" gun you will quite possibly be more in a Stealth mode. That is good. You can carry a lot of 22 ammo for the weight. And if it's suppressed you can "get the job done" and still be stealthy.

What do Y'all think? An idea that has promise or total whacked out?

Now this is assuming (yes I know what it does) you are NOT going to have to Fight your way out every step of the way.

SkunkHunter, that's a totally realistic idea. I belong to a website dedicated to the FAL and this topic is discussed a lot. Many of the guys there have talked about a suppressed semiauto .22 in their BOB's.
I work about 22 miles from home and I'm more worried about getting home than I am bugging out. I'm assuming that I'm going to have to leave my truck and hike home. I've considered an M4gery for a "get my butt home truck gun", a Marlin .30-30, a .22.......I figure an AR or an FAL is gonna attract alot more attention than a .30-30 and if I'm trying to get home, I don't want to attract any attention. I live in rural Western Pennsylvania and I see lots more .30-30's than I do FALs. And the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a suppressed .22, for all the reasons you stated.

There was (IS) a book by I think Robert A.Heinlein titled "Tunnel in the Sky". Futuristic time where people travel to "land rush/homestead" new worlds. Bunch of high schoolers taking a survival class. As the LAST test,they Are sent to a primitive world for supposedly a week. YUP, it all goes south. Kids book, but if you read it and look at the survival aspect, got some things in it that will make you think.

ANYWAY, the "stars" sister is a military leader. She says whenever she sends out one of "her girls" on a recon mission, all she gives them is a knife. They KNOW knife fighting, but with only a knife they are more "stealthy", depending on remaining unseen and not confrontational. Kinda makes you think don't it.

Oh and the suppressed 22 as a Bug out rifle. Makes a lot of sense to me. You KNOW others will be armed with larger weapons than you, and you KNOW you need to concentrate on not being seen, or using VERY close range tactics ONLY WHEN THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION. You become the rabbit, not the badger.

DJ, the FAL bug bit me in 1997 back in the FAL FILES blue board days. I just recently started looking around there again.

As to the suppressed BOB/BIB I think it makes a lot of sense for the following reasons:
A. Quiet, why draw attention to yourself if not needed.
B. .22lr is better than a sharp stick, and quite a bit of ammo can be carried.
C. A .22lr suppressor can be used on a pistol or a rifle that is threaded for the same pitch. A Marlin Papoose, Henry AR 7 Survival, or any other breakdown rifle can be stowed in a backpack easily.

Now I needed to talk the wife into a combo set-up for my b-day.

I think my first FAL foray was around '97 as well. Since then I've owned 20 or more of them. The two I have now are both older DSA factory assembled, and I wouldn't let them go for any price.

Regarding a SHTF suppressed 22....

1) When I was collecting Class 3 weapons my friend/SOT Dealer ordered a bunch of S&H Ruger Mk2 Integrally Suppressed handguns. If you held the action (bolt) closed with the thumb of your firing hand the only thing you could hear was the mechanical (firing pin) and then "crack" if the round wasn't a sub-sonic. I wanted one of these BAD, but had bought three machine guns in the past six months and didn't have the funds. Since then I've sold all of my Class 3 items, but would have kept the Suppressed Ruger.

2) My wife could have any firearm she wanted for a 'SHTF' scenario. She chose a stainless Ruger 10/22 for any event that requires us to leave our home. Its light, accurate, reliable, she can carry lots-o-ammo, and perfect for putting food in the pot. (My wife has a Colt 6520 - AR15 - for home defense).

I'm glad I brought this up. I thought I might get stranded out on a limb with the post. Glad you guys think the same way (for SOME situations). Glad to know I wasn't out in left field.

I'm a huge fan of suppressors. Oddly, countries that strongly restrict gun ownership often do not restrict suppressor ownership /use. Several years ago I studied this topic, but don't know if my info is still up to date.

I've always felt a suppressed 22LR handgun would make an ideal "SHTF" pack gun, because you can hunt with it undetected. I'd still want a full-power rifle, but having a 22 in the ruck allows you to hunt / carry lots of ammo for little weight.

Worst Case Scenario = Liberator Pistol.

The United States made tons of "Liberator" 45acp handguns and air-dropped them in Europe during WW2. The purpose of the cheap / crude Liberator was simple....you used it to liberate a better gun from the enemy. A suppressed 22LR could be used as a Liberator if all else failed....

I remember reading an extended article about the Liberator many years ago in a gun magazine. Yup, crude. Effective YUP! Use what ya got to get what ya need!

Getting a suppressor is really easy here. 200 stamp and the sheriff signs off on it. Easy enough.

I think that it is pretty much the same here in Missouri now. Strangely enough, for years here in Missouri you could own a fully automatic weapon, but not a suppressor. Now you can own both AND we can CCW now for the past several years.

I guess if I was going to head for the hills today I'd grab my .308 and 10/22.

Can't argue with those choices. BUT one of lazi's double belly kel tech shotguns would be nice. Man, 14 shots without a reload, ON A SHOTGUN!

I got to hold a Liberator pistol a few years ago. I do believe I would only want to shot it once and liberate a better weapon for use...............just like it was designed for.

I would think that the "recoil" would be a handful!

Yes sir, that is what I thought when I held it.

Here is a LONG READ (with pics <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) about my newest SHTF carbine....

http://www.scrapyardknives.com/ubbthread...;vc=#Post465588

My SHTF or TEOTWAWKI rifle. G1 kit built on an Imbel Gear logo reciever

That is a great choice there DJ. The G1 does have some interesting history--I bet she runs like a bat out of hell.

Oh yeah! She shoots like a house afire. There were quite a few G1's came in that went from Germany to Turkey and had been beat to death. This one wasn't one of the Turkish rifles. It doesn't have matching numbers but it was beautiful inside and out when I bought the kit.
I had it built on an Imbel Gear logo reciever by Derek at AZEX.
She's a gorgeous rifle.

I guess since I sold my AR15 that mine would be my 10/22. Quiet, accurate and I can carry plenty of ammo.

10/22 is a great survival rifle. Personally, I wouldn't want to be "only armed" with a 22LR for SHTF defense, but it certainly beats throwing rocks.

I'm a firm believer in 22 rifles or handguns for general survival purposes. I've never heard a valid argument to the contrary.

I think it best to carry a centerfire rifle and keep a 22LR handgun or take-down type rifle in your ruck. The handgun could be carried on your hip for fast access (when dat tasty wabbit woefully wonders acwoss ywo paff). Otherwise, it (or a folding stock 10/22 or Marlin 70 Papoose) can ride in or on your BOB.

Arch, what do you think about the old AR7 Explorer, or the newer remakes of it? I had one back in '77 I think it was and like an idiot, got rid of it!

PLAN B

If you're a "pair of survivalists" you can distribute your load. My wife and I have this plan:

Architect = AK47 or AR15 or FAL
Architect = Ruger MkIII (22LR Handgun)

Mrs. Architect = Ruger 10/22 with Leupold Scope
Mrs. Architect = Glock 19 (9mm Handgun)

We can both defend ourselves, forage for food while armed (handguns), and hunt for food.

We can also EASILY pack over 1500 rounds of 22LR ammo between us.

Randy,

I don't care for the AR7. I've owned an original ArmaLite and a newer manufactured (Charter Arms). The accuracy was poor, and they were both unreliable.

A Marlin 70 Papoose weighs only 3.25 pounds and breaks down easily to a VERY SMALL package. It is accurate enough to hunt rabbits and squirrels if you don't constantly assemble and disassemble it. The cost a little more than the AR7, but its money well invested. Marlin's micro-groove barrels are phenomenally accurate for their price point.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/selfloading/70pss.asp

I read this article 6 or 7 years ago, and it made sense to me.....

http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/224survivaltg.htm


EDIT FOR CORRECTION: The Marlin Papoose only weighs 3.25 pounds. I had originally posted 4 pounds above because when I had one in my ruck it had several mags and extra ammo in the pouch I stored it in (weighed in at exactly 4.0 pounds).

I had forgotten about the Papoose and that it broke down. I just thought it was a "kids size" rifle. Thanks.

It isn't adult sized, but I think its the best "pack 22" currently offered.....

1) Stainless steel barrel
2) Comes with sling swivels
3) Magazine feed
4) Semi-auto
5) 16" micro-groove barrel (accurate)
6) Decent sights
7) Easy to mount a scope on
8) Light weight
9) Quick / Easy take-down with no parts to loose

I don't own one right now, but its on my "must buy" list. They use to make a blued version that can be found on the secondary market for a lot less money. However, a new stainless model is only about $200 so I'd rather spend the extra and get the corrosion resistance.

Eventually I'll buy one and make the following modifications:

A) Add a sling with quick-detach swivels.
B) Add a Leupold VX2 2-7x33mm scope (only adds 8.5 ounces)
C) Wrap the barrel with 550 paracord.

SIDE NOTE:

Mounting a scope on the receiver of a "take down" rifle can be an issue as the barrel is removed from the receiver making "maintaining a zero" difficult. The solution is to mount a EER (Extended Eye Relief) scope on the barrel itself. Since the 22 has very little recoil, a handgun scope could be used for this purpose (or a standard "scout scope").

I've yet to investigate the cost of having the barrel drilled / tapped for a scout mount. They might make a mount that friction fits into the rear sight dovetail, but I wouldn't trust it to maintain zero without some sort of "screw" that applies friction to the barrel (thus holding the mount stable).

Silver Solder?

I figured somebody had "scout mounted" a scope on a Marlin Papoose. Twenty seconds of google searching yielded this...

http://www.scoutrifle.org/index.php?topic=578.0



4.25 pounds with scope, mount and magazine.

The bolt on mount above only cost $8.50 on amazon. If mounted in a manner to prevent "slippage" it would make a simple set up.

Just figured out a way to hold the mount in place....

Use a rear sight dovetail blank (sticks up above the surface of the barrel). This could be the "key" that you index the mount too.

This take-down set up is just plain classy....



A quality mount like the one depicted (combined with a quality scope) would make a Marlin Papoose a formidable "stew pot" pack rifle.

You talked about the "stock" not being adult size. I found out about 3 weeks ago that the SHORT 20ga I I have is NOT illegal! Our Chief deputy looked it up in the state statutes.

It's sweet. 16/12 inch barrel with a shortened butt stock with a semi-hard rubber pad. He said it qualifies because it is longer than 26 or 26 1/2 inches. Maybe now I can put it back together.

Heck with the marlin, I like the lever gun! I AM IN LOVE!

Haha, with my luck it's probably a 600 Nitro express! You know, that nice Whitetail round. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The lever gun is a Marlin too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> .

Randy,

Federal law (National Fireams Act of 1934) defined the legal minimum shotgun barrel length as 18".

For a rifle it is 16" with an OAL of 26".

Under the National Firearms Act (NFA) it is illegal for a private citizen to possess a sawed-off modern smokeless powder shotgun, i.e. with a barrel length less than 18 inches (46 cm) and an overall length less than 26 inches (66 cm), without a tax-stamped permit from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which requires a background check and a $200 fee for every transfer. However, if the weapon was manufactured by a licensed builder, with a short barrel and no stock, the transfer fee is $5. [1] (Short-barreled muzzleloading blackpowder shotguns, in contrast, are not illegal by federal law and require no tax-stamped permit, although they may be illegal under state law.) As with all NFA regulated firearms, a new tax stamp must be purchased before every transfer. Inter-state transfers must be facilitated through a Class III Federal Firearms Licensed (FFL) dealer while intrastate transfers may be between two persons.[6]




http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode26/usc_sec_26_00005845----000-.html




(a) Firearm
The term “firearm” means
(1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e);
(6) a machinegun;
(7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and
(8) a destructive device. The term “firearm” shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector’s item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.