Apocalypse.

The word evokes images of biblical end times, nuclear holocaust, and other cataclysmic events. However, in the context of this post it means the collapse of civil society. Here's the caveat: I'm not going to disclose WHAT or WHO causes the collapse or the extent, severity, or duration of it. Having created this ambiguous framework, I'd like to hear what everyone chooses for their firearms needs.

Here are the rules:

1) You do NOT have to own what you select. You can select a "dream gun". For the purpose of this thread NO CLASS 3.

2) You're allowed ONE FIGHTING long gun and ONE handgun. However, if you can also ADD a "pack gun" (take down rifle, hunting handgun, etc).

3) You're encouraged to add accessories (optics, lights, whatever).

4) You have explain your selections.

OK, ONE "Long" gun, one Hand gun and One "Pack" gun.

After long and thoughtful deliberation here are MY choices.

ON THE RUN
1. Long gun:
Beretta CX4 Storm 9mm Carbine.(Yeah I know)
OK, NOT exactly a long gun, but my thinking is as follows. First off I think that we should be the rabbit, NOT the wolf. We should be planning on NOT being seen, and NOT being heard. It will have at most a 2 power optic on it, but I am planning (the Lean Chop House stole the optic money this month) on getting a Lucid HD7 gen III red dot that has 4 different reticles. The Carbine is already home to a tactical flashlight. It has high firepower capabilities (20 round mags) and has a long enough effective range for a "duck and cover" weapon.

2. Handgun:
Beretta PX4 with 4 inch barrel. Same caliber as the rifle, meaning carrying the same ammo AND uses the same magazines. Commonality in two areas. Plus won't have to worry about possibly getting the wrong mag and wrong round. Again, be the rabbit. Close in high Capacity firepower. POSSIBLY augmented with a second weapons light.

3. Pack gun:
.22 Rimfire, The ruger 10/22TD with AT LEAST 10 mags augmented with some kind of 2-4 power sight. Right alongside that would be a 550 (or 525) bulk pack of long rifle ammo.(did I mention the magazines would all be loaded as well) This would be a small game (or even deer size)getter, and COULD work in a defensive situation if needed.

Well There you have it, MY choices and reasoning behind them. Now Mind you this could change at any time, but I think this would work pretty well.

I like Randy's philosophy with regards to ammo and magazine commonality.

1. Long gun:
Glock hasn't come out with a pistol caliber carbine yet so my pick is a Mech Tech carbine conversion kit for Glock in 10 mm combined with a Glock 20 frame. The only accessory I would add is a sling and maybe a light. I like Glock for their reliability and 10 mm because you can hunt with it.

2. Pistol:
Glock 20. Maybe a light. Reasons are reliability and 10 mm because it has good penetration for 2 legged critters.

3. Pack gun:
Ruger 10/22 takedown. If we could make this an NFA item then it would be integrally suppressed. No accessories. Reasons are portability and the amount of ammo that can be carried.

Iron sights for everything. Reasons are durability and I don't want to depend on batteries for my optics to function.

I made my selections based on the assumption that I am bugging out. If I were bugging in then my long gun selection would be different.

I do not own any of these firearms.

You both surprised me. I did not expect to see pistol caliber carbines. Usually everyone jumps in these threads with an AR15 or AK47.

Randy's set with the ubiquitous 9mm. If you can't find 9mm then the world has come to an end.

The 10mm is my favorite handgun cartridge. In fact, I ordered a case (1000rds) over the weekend. Hopefully the reassurance of 10mm popularity will continue. I'd like to see more FULL STRENGTH (180gr at 1200 FPS) ammo on the shelves!

I'm going to let this thread ride without mentioning my long gun and handgun choices (for a while anyway). However, I will say the 10/22TD is my hands down choice in a pack gun. The TD version is MORE accurate than the fixed (sporter weight) barreled versions. I've owned a number of each. I do have Tech Sights on my rifle, because they're bombproof and more precise than the factory irons.

I've tried both versions of the sight (TSR100 and TSR200). The 200 is what I settled on, because they're more adjustable. Hope this doesn't violate any forum rules:

Tech Sights TSR-200 CLICK ME!

With WalMart bulk pack Federal 36gr HVHP my TD with TRS200 sights can flip shotgun shell hulls around at 30 yards (standing / supported). That's a head shot on a stationary squirrel or rabbit.

I could do this one as a fantasy experiment but that would be just that. So I will go with the reality of what could be put together here in/for such a scenario.

The rifle, a Remington 7615 with a 1.5-5x Leupold illuminated or (one of the Trijicons in a similar range but that uses the no battery illumination) along with a bunch of 10 round Magpuls. I would add the Mesa Leo stock adaptor and tube with a Magpul CTR. The Remington is as accurate as needed for both hunting and self-protection, it is available, legal and .223 is one of the most common rounds used out here so in addition to what I would own for it there is ample opportunity to scrounge.

For a sidearm it would be a Glock 17A (A for Australia which = a little more barrel to meet our minimum length requirements). All the reasons one would generally own a Glock. It is the handgun I am most familiar with. In a pinch you can also scrounge G22 magazines (the most common Govt issue handgun here) and run them in the 17. Familiarity with the 17 also means that a scrounged 22 is not a big ask to operate. I must also say that this is a tie with an unlikely contender, my 686. The .38/357 is the most commonly used handgun round here still, you have two different rounds available to use and the revolver is plenty reliable.

Finally a pack rifle, well that would have to be my Brno Mod 2 (CZ). It has been shortened to 16 inches and is topped with a 4x Leupold, it is more accurate than I and will happily put food on the table all day long. If I were to make one modification it would be to replace the timber stock with a factory CZ composite one.

CZ rimfire rifles are accurate. Period. I think a person would be hard pressed to find a more accurate PRODUCTION rifle.

I very much regret selling my CZ452 in 22LR and CZ452 Varmint in 22Mag. The 455 just isn't the same rifle.

Andy, if you went with your 686 would you couple it with a lever gun in 38/357? I assume lever actions are legal down under?

I think that most folks knee Jerk reaction to an End of the world situation is based upon the Media (TV, Movies, books...) Gun and Run mentality. That's OK as long as you can get up after you've been killed, once the cameras have stopped rolling that is. BUT I still feel that in a REAL Bug Out situation, you will live longer KNOWING you are the rabbit in a world full of ravenous Wolves.

I once (well OK, SEVERAL times) have read a book called Tunnel in the Sky.
"Tunnel in the Sky is a science fiction novel written by Robert A. Heinlein and published in 1955 by Scribner's as one of the Heinlein juveniles. The story describes a group of students sent on a survival test to an uninhabited planet, who soon realise they are stranded there. The themes of the work include the difficulties of growing up and the nature of man as a social animal."
Full Wikipedia Synopsis:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_in_the_Sky

Anyway, in one part of the book the main Characters sister is a commander of some Scouts (military type) and she said when she sends someone out on a scouting only mission she will ONLY allow them to carry a knife. That way they know they must rely on Not being seen and Not being heard. Whereas if they had a firearm of some sort they would be more inclined to use it to get out of a situation instead of an intelligent withdrawal. This has ALWAYS stuck with me.

You are correct about CZ rifles mate, mine is a 1982 Model 2 that I bought new in 1983, the barrel was shortened and it has had a trigger job. [censored] thing just shoots so well it is not funny. it is in a slimline European type stock so it is also much lighter than many of the newer versions in an "American" stock - so to speak.

Lever rifles are legal here mate but I put great stock in the additional power/reach of a rifle round over a pistol round. I would still most probably stick with either the .223 or if just to reach into the safe now and pull out a hard hitting repeating riles, it would be my 30/30 Trapper. It wears Lyman sights and I can happily smack hogs out past 100yds with it all day long.

Different environment Andy. I live in a small town where any "Shots" would be of a limited range. Also our "Bug out Bivouac" is in a heavily wooded area, where even in winter the "Shots" would be of a rather short distance (Probably under 75 yards, heck actually under 50). The Range and the I feel necessity, of remaining unseen and unheard makes the 9mm Carbine and pistol more conducive to this type of mindset. These are my thoughts and they may be flawed if ever needed to be proved, But...

Randy,

Please note: I didn't say anything about bugging out. That's part of the challenge. People are far too quick to want to run out of their house with (maybe) 72 hours worth of food on their backs. This is a recipe for disaster. (Pun intended).

HOWEVER, whatever the event, there MAY be a need to leave your home. Therefore, firearms selection becomes more complicated.

I totally agree. I'd like to use a 308 / 7.62x51mm as a primary rifle, but the ammo simply weighs too much. I have several top of the line 308s (License Built FAL and FN Scar-17) but they're "specialty rifles". The Scar is light enough to be used in a scenario like the one I've created for this thread. However, the ammo and steel magazines are very very heavy.

Pictures always make a thread more interesting. Here's my Scar-17...

Yes mate, .308 is my favourite round, pretty much bar none. In MY part of Australia there is nothing that can't be taken with it. BUT ammunition is heavy (less so the firearms themselves). That is why for me .223 is a workable compromise. I have two .308s in the safe at the moment, very different takes on the same theme, my Sako AII custom that is my hunting rifle of choice now and a Steyr SSG with a Leupold MkIV (6.5-20x) on top.

An interesting aside and other reason I raise the .38/357 686 is that with the .38 WC rounds that I have LOTS of (they are what I shoot most of in competition here) I can happily take all manner of small game reasonably quietly. Still the .22 is a better game get'er.

My current list is out of guns I have.
AR
16in BCM SAMR barrel, 15in BCM KMR rail, vltor mur, lantac enhanced BCG,
Raptor charging handle, AAC black out flash hider, aimpoint pro, Magpul pro Long range folding sights and Surefire 6p Defender LED on a scout mount.
Lower is a rock river with their match trigger, stock is a MFT minimalist,

Pistol. My g19 LAV edition,

Pack gun, Ruger MK 3 hunter with Burris FF3

If I could pick any rifle I'd try a scar heavy with a 1.5-6 optic
And the rest would stay the same.

I'd love to be able to suppress all of my options.

Originally I did have a stay at home selection as well, but removed it for brevity. I guess I could go ahead and list a Stay At Home battery as well.

BUGGING IN


Long Arm:
I would LIKE to list my AR15 or .308 but in actuality I think it would be one of my assault shotguns. Again, due mainly to range of under 70 yards in any direction (don't plan on standing out in the middle of the street, which would give me a clear shot of just one block). The shot gun with slugs is a very formidable weapon (Yes, even in 20ga). And that coupled with buckshot would do to keep folks out of our yard and beyond. Plus I have a FEW rounds stockpiled.

Pistol:
9mm for sure. I have a few I could draw from so if there were a problem with one of them I would have redundant backups. And again, I have quite a few rounds for this caliber.

Pack Gun:
AR15 for it's light weight in case I DID have to go outside for something and high rate of sustainable firepower. This would be a backup to the others I feel without compromising the "Firepower". It is the carbine length AR15 A3 with a 2 power Beeman scope that is VERY tough. I sort of wanted to list a pistol here, but decided since I was at "Home Base" there wouldn't be all that much need for another one whereas SOME reach and rate of fire would be more desirable. And for Foraging the Pistol OR AR would either one suffice as I would be checking out other houses in the area (There are only two couples younger than us on the block and unfortunately the others are all in their 70 or above) so their ability, even with all of us helping out they would probably be rendered ineffective in the first round of outbreaks unless there were time for us to "Band Together" in the sturdiest house with a basement.

Gun Dog - very solid choices.

Randy - I try to like shotguns, but can't warm up to them. Excluding inside the house, I prefer the capacity of a rifle. Effectively, this means a semi-auto with detachable box magazines containing a minimum of 20rds each. I do keep a Benelli M2 Tactical with a SureFire Forearm Light (and enough US made parts to comply with 922r thus allowing me to have a full length magazine) next to the bed for those unfortunate enough to breach Fortress Architect.

(I also keep a LWRC IC-Enhanced with Aimpoint T1 and Glock 19 with TLR-1 beside the bed. A man needs options).

GD - I have a Scar Heavy (have had several actually). They're great guns, but 7.62x51mm is a battlefield round. If you're in a friendly urban area over penetration could be an issue (along with the weight of ammo). If you get a Heavy don't use a variable power optic on it. The rifle is known for damaging them. Google "Scar eats optics". You'll find a lot of internet chatter, but I've seen a Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x with the guts rolling around inside, courtesy Scar-17.

ETA: I have a Trijicon TA11H-G on my Heavy, and think its about perfect. Regarding over penetration / suitability of the rifle...

US houses are made easily defeatable materials. This is a consideration if a "small scale problem" crops up. In a full on WW3 / TEOTWAWKI I'd like the penetration offered by the mighty 308.

1. Long gun.
My choice would be a quality AR (BCM) 16-inch barrel with a mid-length gas system. I would run it with the same setup I always use. Sporting an Aimpoint with iron backups. The Aimpoint over Eotech due to battery life. Much less to worry about with an always on optic with a year battery life. A forward mounted hi output light and a smaller low output light for navigation and low signature.

The main reason is I am familiar with them and I can work one exhausted and mostly asleep. I have used and trained with them literally for decades. Caliber is adequate (barely) and I can defend or take game, and have reasonable capacity. Plus ammo is pretty easy to find.

2. Handgun.
A full sized Glock probably a G-22 with a WML Surefire 300. Again it's a matter of familiarity. I have carried a Glock of one flavor or another for decades. With a G-22 you can carry a 9mm barrel and mags and also use 9mm ammo if you have it. So it is fairly adaptable without adding much weight.

3. I would probably throw in a 22 pistol, a Ruger 22/45 as a pack gun. A suppressor would fit in nicely with this setup. Assuming that I would have to carry all three guns and ammo another long gun just seems to add too much to the ounces = pounds. Pounds = pain equation. I think a Ruger take down would be better, but weight wins it for me on this front.

I sold the pictured BCM yesterday. I too prefer a midlength (9") gas system to a carbine (7") for obvious reasons. I've been trying to sell off my DI guns since I currently have a mildly concerning love affair with LWRC's piston system. I'll keep one Colt 6520 and 6920 (the 6520 is a great lightweight KISS CAR and the 6920 is iconic).

If I were selecting a DI rifle for WROL / TEOTWAWKI it would be a hammer forged BCM Midlength. Period. I've owned 3 BCM Mids (2 HF and 1 Non HF). They've all performed flawlessly. I cannot say that about the countless other DI ARs I've owned (including Colt).

IMHO, it is impossible to beat (overall) a Glock. I say "overall" because they are guns with better ergos; more accurate; more attractive finish/design; etc. However, there isn't a more durable, simple to use, easy to maintain, reliable and reasonably accurate handgun.

Selecting guns that you MAY have to rely on until the end of your days is a challenge.

While on the home front, I have my basic AR with a Vortex red dot and x2 magnifier with iron sites for back up. Have some quality hunting rounds to help put venison on the table and anything bigger than deer is rare in CT. Love my CZ 75bd, so there's my pistol.

If I need to go for a walk though, the AR stays and my CZ 22lr is coming.

But...wife is here too, so in reaility she is going to carry something!

This thread makes me think I should have a 22 pistol with optics. I love my buckmark, shoot it every week and pretty well- but doubt my ability with it to put meat on the table on a regular basis with iron sites.

I use to keep a Ruger Mk2 Competiton Target (6-7/8" slab side barrel) with a Leupold scope in my ruck. I could hit stationary clay pigeons at 35yards.

I now use a 10/22 take down with improved iron sights. I can hit shotgun hulls at 30 yards and a rabbit target at 50 yards.

Eventually I'd like to add a TacSol upper with a RMR Sight on a Mk3 frame.

I'm about thinking about adding an AR pistol to my armory. Essentially a MK18 with a pistol tube and brace since it falls under my CCW.
If I do another AR rifle it will be a LWRC. Only reason I'd have another DI upper is for 3 gun.
I'd like a .308 battle rifle. But my gun fund is broke till some time in 2016.
Some how I got 2 shotguns 3 pistols and a rifle in 2015.
I'm thinking of parting with 2 guns to open up other options in my armory.
I Haven't fired my Ruger GSR in over a year. And my 870 tactical isn't a gun if grab first for any situation.

GD, I had a GSR and was very disappointed in it. As a non-shotgun person...ditching an extra 870 (everyone should have at least ONE shotgun) wouldn't hurt either.

A military grade semi-auto 308 would increase your versatility while a piston AR wouldn't. I wholeheartedly prefer piston guns, but a 556 piston doesn't increase mission capability over a DI 556. A quality piston will run: longer; cleaner; and cooler, but its still a 556.

For most users there is nothing wrong a top quality DI AR (BCM, Colt Defense, etc). There is a steep premium associated with an equal or superior quality piston AR. There is a very steep premium for gilded edge technology (read: FN Scar).

I'm blessed and fortunate enough to have acquired a few pinnacle level rifles (FN Scar-16, FN Scar-17, LWRC M6 Individual Carbine - Enhanced, etc) however, I would not feel poorly armed if all I had was a single BCM or Colt DI AR and a Glock 9mm.

The cost on the Colt 6920 M4 is historically low, and defeats any argument for "hobby grade guns". Colt M4s can be had in the low $800 range.

Currently, there isn't an excuse NOT to buy a good AR.

Unless you can't ...

Interesting story, I have a work colleague that I live very much I have given her each season of The Walking Dead to watch, the one theme from our discussions is how differently we view the world. I see much of the bad that is played out in that series among the survivors (the walkers are just bit players) as being quite indicative of human nature, how some people will just go entirely feral and prey on those around them, how some will be nothing more than prey and some will walk the line much like the central characters in that show do. How the "good" people will have to do (with our eyes here in reality) appear to be bad things to survive. My friend is a realist but does not understand why "they can't all get along and work together.

If the rules went out the window here it is a sad indictment that those who are most prone to doing great bad will be the better armed, they all ready are.

^^^ hah! They are illegal in CT now too...I would live to have an AK...illegal too!

There are places you all can move to where some of your God given rights are still somewhat intact.

Amen^^^

Fun and thought provoking...

Rifle: Vepr in 5.45 x39mm, way more effective penetration than 5.56 NATO yet similar ammo weight with reliable combat proven mags up to 45 rds. TA-50 3x green ACOG on a RS Regulate 302/AKOG side mount which allows cowitness of irons with normal cheek weld yet very comfortable lower cheek/upper chin weld for the glass. And FYI to avoid being fleeced by dishonest marketing ploys: the Vepr's were not banned like Saiga's were, so they are still easy to obtain as the highest quality and most accurate AK made yet they don't look like an ak if you leave them in factory walnut dress with a 5 or 10 rd mag. They are marketed as hunting rifles, but run like battle rifles.

Pistol: Since for this exercise class 3 is not an option and for now the ignorant members of our society somehow think a man's right to protect his hearing via sound suppression somehow is a taxable privilege while requiring mufflers or restricting exhaust brake noise in many jurisdictions, I will forego the suppressed FNP45 with RMR for the very hot loaded Coonan .357. If I can't make it quiet, I will go for the loudest blazing flashbang I can get while maintaining very low recoil and excellent accuracy. Make them feel the shock and awe crap long enough for me to get to safer places since I clearly am somewhere I have no business being having to rely on my pistol in the first place. Simple night sights are more than sufficient. 200 grain 357's at over 1500 fps can be used for hunting bigger game, yet very low powered 38's can give you quiet single shot pops without ejecting cases for the times that might be handy.

Pack gun: Use that weight for Ammo/mags for the other two... after all, if you are wearing a pack and need more than two boomsticks per man you better get a bigger army fast Rambo.

I'm with with MB on the Glock 22 and quality AR15 except the AR would be the pack gun. I'd want mostly pistol/sbr length uppers in pretty much any caliber that would fit on the one lower. That's from .22lr to 6.8 or whatever folks use to reach out with an AR15. I'd treat it like a take down rifle and use each upper for specfic tasks. Would think I could keep .223 and a .22 conversion in a pack and keep the rest of the uppers stashed away for when needed. If I was to "bug out" it would just be with the .223 upper and hopefully at least a .22lr conversion kit.

As for the Glock I'd want every conversion option that would fit on the 22 frame including .22lr. I've just seen way more Glocks than any other handgun so if I only had one my chances for finding compatible parts would be higher than my with M&P. I prefer the M&P and I'm actually considering getting a used .357 Sig so I run it with .357 Sig, .40, and 9mm barrel.


As for a long gun I'm going to say a 14" Remington 870 12 gauge with a set of caliber adapters. Again I own and prefer a different make/model but I've seen a few more 870 shotguns and clones than Mossbergs. I would want the 870 if there was no chance of ever seeing any new parts ever again. I'm picking a shotgun more for the idea if surviving as an opportunist than for fighting. I think with a decent selection of adapters and a variety of shells all stuck in a bandolier I could just rack in whatever is needed. Anything from .22lr to heavy slugs or buckshot... I also like that you can top off the tube and mix and match ammo. If I knew what the day called for then I'd break out the AR and use that. If I have to expend a lot of ammo then hopefully the Glock will do. But if the world is crazy then I'd want to be able to adapt to whatever comes my way as fast as I can.



If it was only from why I own now... M&P 9, 10/22, and I have no idea what I would use for a pack gun. Nothing I own other than a S2K fits in a pack. Hopefully I will have the upper for my AR lower in the next month or so I'd probably go with that. But this thread has me seriously considering purchasing a 10/22 take down of some flavor.

My 9mm carbine.

My intermediate caliber battle rifle. (5.56) mid length piston driven.

My home/base defense shotgun. (12 gauge)

And my personal defence pistol. (45acp)

Hunting/long range options.

308 bolt and 17wsm bolt

Nice toys Grease!

Thanks those are my go to proven weapons I have a few more that are just range or hunting toys but those are the few I would have to have available in a SHTF scenario. I own spare parts for all of them just incase I need to keep them up and running without the internet.

Oh and well over 4k 5.56 rounds with powder and materials to make probably another 3k
5k 9mm and reloading supplies to make another 6k
3k 45acp and another 2k worth of reloading supplies
1k 308 with another 1k reloading
and I need to build up the 17wsm rounds only sitting on around 500 of them so farm but I also own a 17hmr with around 750 rounds for it.

Overkill you say? Maybe but hey if you're going to be broke you may as well have plenty of ammo when you do.

Dang Grease, you gonna supply arms to one of them 3rd world countries?

Nah just like to plink and I figure might as well have enough not to worry about running out. LOL
My father also shares the reloading stores with me.

I consider you very fortunate that you can stock up that much.

That's a pretty good START! ......................................

Tomfucious say following about ammo:

A smart man buy it cheap
and stack it deep

A dumb man all talks
and buy only box
spend rest money on stocks

The smart man live another day
because when sun shine he make hay

The dumb man die a slave
all saved money no good in grave

Moral of Tomfucious's story...

Ammo is a commodity with intrinsic value while a fat pile of paper money is worth less than toilet paper when: A) they chose to set the value lower; B) people lose confidence it in.

PLUS, bullets are the gift you can give to ANYONE (that really really deserves it).

My thoughts exactly Arch I figured a pile of ammo and a few good guns was/is better than a few top shelf guns and no ammo. I would like to move to top shelf firearms eventually but I trust the ones I have and that is good enough for me.

Absolutely....

Some deserving people can be gifted cartridges....while others might deserve just the bullets

Lol always useful one way or another.

So here are my considerations for the one fighting long gun:
1. Reliability
2. Durability
3. Accuracy (out to 200 meters)
4. Easy maintenance
5. Magazine fed
6. Proven man killer
7. Weight
8. Availability of spare part
9. Availability of ammunition

While I love to pick a SCAR-16 or SCAR-17 for the ultimate fighting rifle, it would violate consideration #8. The only fighting long gun I would pick that meets all of my considerations is an AR-15 with an 18” barrel. The only ding on my list with the AR-15 is #4. I would forgo any sights in favor of straight iron sights.

As far as a hand gun, the Glock 17 is the only choice. No arguments allowed, my mind is made up, useless to challenge my decision, case closed. Unless…

My 308 (Remington 600 Mohawk), my AR15a3 and Beretta CX4 9mm carbine and the Beretta PX4 9mm decocker only pistol. The last two share the same magazine.

Oh and my Two Weatherby Tactical Shotguns, one a pump action the other a self shucker.

I could also throw in some other handguns from 22 up to 45acp.

I think the AR platform is about as easy as it comes for maintenance, no tools needed for 90 percent of it.

Very true. And you only need a few for the other 10%

If ease of maintenance are in your top criterion then you should very strongly consider an AK or FAL. After a lot of years owning, shooting, building, accessorizing, etc virtually every military style design I can say without any reservation that these two stand out as the easiest to work on and maintain. The only tool needed for the FAL (outside of a barrel or locking shoulder change which is a depot level repair) is something with a flat edge (rim of cartridge, knife, screw driver, coin).

DI AR maintenance is much more involved once you start getting into high round count sessions. Scraping carbon isn't neuro surgery, but it also isn't required by piston format designs.

Additionally, the AR design has a lot of small pins, springs, etc. While I've only experienced a dozen (or so) small parts breakages in various ARs...I've never experienced the same in an AK or FAL (because they don't have any).

While most people won't shoot a QUALITY DI AR enough to see it, there are other issues with DI. Dumping hot (dirty) gas back on your bolt increases fatigue. This is why I always kept a spare bolt in my kit when a DI AR was my "go to gun". I've seen a lot of busted boots in my lifetime.

The closed receiver design of the: AR, AUG, Daewoo, Sig 556, ARX100, Scar, etc makes cleaning inside difficult. Designs with an open top receiver (ala AK and FAL) are a breeze to wipe out (Pistons don't get as dirty in here).

The FAL and AK have their own issues (weight, accuracy compared to some other more modern designs, heavy ammo compared to 556, ergonomics (the controls) aren't nearly as convenient, etc.

However, they reign supreme on durability, ease of maintenance and repair.

I often think an 18" barrel FAL with a Para rear sight is the ultimate MadMax Situation gun. It is not, however, the rifle I've chosen.

...... I would agree... or in my case an L1A1F1 with a Hythe rear sight and British plastics.

After applying my stated criteria to all the fighting long guns prevalent in my area, it really comes down to the AR-15 or the AK-47. When you factor in the military long gun of choice, the AR-15 pulls way ahead (ammunition and spare parts).

I don’t think any realist can argue that the AR is superior when it comes to reliability, and durability compared to an AK. As a person that takes no joy in cleaning or maintaining firearms (it a chore that need to be done), the AK still tops the AR platform. Then I thought what good are those superiorities when you don’t have bullets available to shoot? And even an AK will break down sometime in the future, and where will I get parts then?

My concerns with the AR-15 and maintenance is that amount of moving parts and their sizes (where’s my ejector spring?) along with the trend of lighter and shorter barrels. I realize that you don’t need to do a complete tear down very often for a normal cleaning, but this is the Apocalypse firearm where talking about. Sooner or later it will happen. And shorter barrels are great for urban combat, but at the expense of decreased accuracy at longer ranges. How many of you see yourselves fighting close up in an urban environment after the Apocalypse? I can’t begin to express how much I HATE urban combat or combat in cities.

Another thing I’m wondering about, how many people are still proficient with iron sights? What happens when you bump/drop/bang that top of the line scope into uselessness or your batteries run out? Do you then learn how to shoot using iron sights? Do you expect your target to be at such great range that you’ll need scopes to engage? Or is it to supplement weak eye sight?

I would shy away from any accessories that where not mechanical (larger charging handle, free floating handguards, etc.) or anything that required batteries. I really do subscribe to the Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) theory and try to keep points of failure to a minimum.

Arsenal's SLR106 is a 5.56x45mm AK. I've used them in classes and can vouch for the model as long as you use gen 2 mags.

I personally don't subscribe to the "scrounged or traded for" gun parts or ammo idea. Who, in their right mind, would turn loose of ammo? The person who they trade it to could use it to take everything they have.

Ammo and parts are something you buy and store BEFORE something happens.

The dependence on optics is a concerning trend. Optics are force multipliers and have their place, but bombproof back up iron sights (read: NO PLASTIC SIGHTS) are critical.

Regarding "found ammo"...

The Liberator pistol was designed to help the French "find" ammo...and real firearms...on the body of the enemy.

I agree with never trading ammo, and would command an extremely high price for any firearm, even if it was inoperable.

But I would absolutely pillage any personal remains and place that challenged my welfare or welfare of anyone in my group. And the chances of coming across AR-15’s and 5.56 (or 223) ammo would be much higher than anything else.

Excellent point on the emphasis on not using plastic iron sights.

My next question probably needs its own thread but…

Arch, for a non-armorer type, what spare parts (and priority) would you advise for stocking stuffers? Are the nickel boron products (bolt carrier group, firing pin, etc.) really worth the money?

The NiB carriers definitely are easier to clean and have a natural lubricity that decreases the need to run a dirty AR soaking wet.

Spare parts for an AR (assuming your gas key is properly staked):

Bolt
Firing Pin
(2) Firing Pin Keepers
Cam Pin
Buffer Retainer and Spring
(2) Extractors and Springs (with black O rings)

(The above are the parts that seem to fail the most often)

Next:

Trigger/Hammer/Disconnector with springs and pins
Gas tube and pin (crush yours and it's a single shot)
Charging handle with latch

ETA Long Term:

Action spring
Full Lpk

Found my list of "take along" spare parts...

Ruger 10/22 Repair Kit (Vacuum Sealed)

(1) Ejector
(1) Extractor Kit (Extractor, Plunger, Spring)
(1) Firing Pin Kit (Firing Pin, Rebound Spring)
(1) Sear Kit (Sear, Spring)
(1) Spring, Hammer

AR15 Repair Kit (Vacuum Sealed)

(1) Bolt, Complete with Rings
(1) Buffer Retainer Kit (Retainer, Spring)
(1) Ejector Kit (Ejector, Spring)
(1) Extractor Kit (Extractor, Spring, Spring Plug, O-Ring, Pin)
(1) Cam Pin
(1) Firing Pin
(2) Firing Pin Keepers
(1) Spring, Disconnector
(1) Spring, Hammer
(1) Spring, Trigger

You're far more likely to run out of ammo before you'll need any of these items. The likelihood of losing something in the field is greater than breaking something in a properly maintained rifle. Remember, how much ammo can you carry with you? Its HIGHLY unlikely you're carrying enough to wear out a quality rifle. Now, a shelter-in-place situation could see parts breakage.

This leads me into another related comment...

You should have two of anything you consider primary. If you consider your 10/22 a primary firearm then you need:

Trainer - this is the rifle you shoot, practice with, haul around in the field.

Emergency Reserve - this is the rifle you test, sight in, and then clean and store with your gear. This is a low round count rifle reserved for an emergency.

Personally, I don't want to have to depend on: A) a high round count weapon; B) an untested weapon. Redundancy addresses both issues. Obviously, if you choose an expensive design (AUG, SCAR, etc) you're going to be saddled with a high investment cost. ETA: This is where a high quality DI AR15 shines. Currently, Colt ARs are in the $800 range. You can buy two Colt M4 Carbines, (20) 30rd Mags, and 1,000rds of ammo, and an Aimpoint PRO for the price of a plain FN SCAR-16 (5.56 version). Alternatively, you can buy (2) Colt M4 Carbines, (20) 30rd Mags, and 2,500rds of Ammo for the price of the same SCAR.

(2) Colt M4 Carbine = $1700
(20) 30rd Mags = $200
(2,500rds) Wolf Ammo = $625
____________________________
Total Package = $2,525

Street Price of a SCAR-16 is $2300-2500.

Based upon price point vs quality, it is nearly impossible to beat the Colt 6920 (M4 Carbine). Here are my recommended Colt M4 Set Ups based upon three budget levels:

LOW BUDGET

Colt 6920 M4 Carbine = $825 +/-
LMT Fixed A2 Rear Sight = $80
PRI Big Latch (charging handle latch) = $25
SureFire G2X LED Light = $55
Viking Tactical Offset Light Mount = $24
MagPul Rail Section (to mount the VTAC to) = $5
2pt Sling = $25
(10) 30rd Magazines = $200
Total Weapon System Cost = $1,239


MID BUDGET

Colt 6920 M4 Carbine = $825 +/-
Troy Flip Up Rear Sight = $100
Aimpoint PRO Optic = $375
PRI Big Latch (charging handle latch) = $25
SureFire G2X LED Light = $55
Viking Tactical Offset Light Mount = $24
MagPul Rail Section (to mount the VTAC to) = $5
2pt Sling = $25
(10) 30rd Magazines = $200
Total Weapon System Cost = $1,634

HIGH BUDGET

Colt 6920 M4 Carbine = $825 +/-
Troy Flip Up Rear Sight = $100
Aimpoint T2 or M4S Optic with LRP Mount = $700
PRI Big Latch (charging handle latch) = $25
SureFire 600 Scout Light = $200
KAC RAS Rail System = $150 (these are getting cheaper)
2pt Sling = $25
LMT SOPMOD Gen2 Stock = $150
MagPul MIAD Grip = $30
(10) 30rd Magazines = $200
Total Weapon System Cost = $2,405

You can have a fully functional Tier-1 Fighting Rifle for as little as $1,239. This was the BASE COST of a Colt 6920 M4 Carbine a couple of years ago.

For a while LWRC had a program where you get a rifle and a aimpoint T1 in a package that was an amazing deal. I don't know if it's still going though.

I bought one LWRC when they were giving away the Aimpoint T-1. You had to buy a new M6 Individual Carbine and have your FFL file out a form and mail it with a photocopy of the 4473 to LWRC. About three or four weeks later they'd ship the T-1 to your FFL for pick up.

My T-1 came with the riser and LRP mount. I was very pleased. The rifle I bought had an AAC muzzle device (added $100) and was factory Ceracoated (added $150) so out the door for a new LWRC M6 IC Enhanced with 14.5" spiral fluted barrel / pinned in place AAC 51T flash hider / Patriot Brown Ceracoating AND a NIB Aimpoint T-1 with LRP Mount was about $2300.

The free optic dropped the price of the rifle to around $1,700.

The promotion ended August 31st.

I bought my other LWRC (remember I preach redundancy in primary arms) three days before the promotion began. LWRC would not give me an Aimpoint for that one

Darn. Why do you like their piston system so much?

The bolt carrier assembly stays cool to the touch, and relatively clean. The maintainenance routine is pretty simple...occasionally wipe down the piston and swab the bore.

Why is their piston system better than others?

It works.

Lol can't argue that. I was curious about the mechanical and component advantage.

I also love my piston gun. I and a few of my buddies run the adams arms set ups and have great luck with it. No baked on carbon is a huge time saver on clean up.

Number of successful designs using DI (Direct Impingement) = 3

French MAS40, Swedish Ljungman, AR10/AR15


Number of successful designs using DB (Delayed Blowback) = 8 (if you count the G3 as five designs: CETME + G3 + HK93 + MP5 + CETME L)?

French FAMAS
German STG45
CETME / German G3 (and variants)
Swiss SIG 510

Number of designs using Piston = All the rest

The Swedish AG42b was a wonderful rifle to shoot. NOTHING much made sense about it but it was accurate, reliable and a dream to squeeze off rounds in. Compared to an AR it was a dream to clean as well. If you however think "Garand Thumb" is a serious injury "Swede Finger" is a whole higher level of pain/injury !!

Andy,
I've owned two Egyptian Hakim's in 8mm (7.92x57mm). I agree with your assessment. However, the Hakim (Egypt's AG42b Clone) had a muzzle brake that was deafening.

I kept one Hakim just to run people off the range. If another shooter was being inconsiderate (wanting to walk down range after every shot, etc). I'd get the Hakim out and would empty the 10rd mag. By the last round, the offender was usually packing his kit.

ETA: Egyptian Thumb is no fun either. It took a minute to figure out the safety lever situation. At first, I kept getting the bolt locked into the dust cover.

For those who have never handled a Ljungman or Hakim...

The action consists of an openly reciprocating bolt and a dust cover. Each comprises 50% of the exposed action. At the rear of the receiver is a safety lever. If placed on safe, the bolt will lock inside the dust cover. If you then place the rifle on fire, it pushing out a little toggle. If you move the bolt/dust cover slightly to the rear it releases the bolt with A LOT OF FORCE.

DO NOT HAVE YOUR FINGERS IN THE ACTION AT THIS TIME.

IT HURTS. A LOT.

Unbelievable I found a video of this! Start at 1:25:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBKfpDXYBbo

It is, frankly, amazing what you can find on the internet. When I owned my last Hakim, I don't think we had internet access available except in the university computer lab

I miss my CETME but it was a hungry beast and 308 isnt cheap.

That's part of why I'm going to part with my .308

I am seriously debating a 308 AR or a M-1A. I don't know if I will but it would be nice,.

Let's see, .308.......Check
A .223/5.56...........Check
Shotgguns.............Check
45acp.................Check
40S&W.................Check
9mm Carbine...........Check
9mm Pistol(s).........Check
38/357................Check
32acp.................Check
22lr..................Check
.177 adult air rifle..Check

I think I'm good on my firearms battery.

That's probably what the BATF thinks too!

I never said I STILL had those.

MB - Scar17 is your play if you want a 308. If optics aren't on the table my second choice would be a FAL.

Save yourself a lot of grief and don't fall for the sex appeal of the M1A. They're like redheads...

They are full of mystique and turn heads every time they walk in the room. There aren't nearly as many out there as a brunette (Scar) or bleach blonde (AR10) which just adds to the sex appeal. What you don't know is....

They're fun to look at, but come with so much baggage and attitude ... You never actually get to enjoy them. You end up spending all of your time trying to to get them to do what every brunette does ... Function normally.

AR10s are the bleach blondes of the gun world.

That fake blonde hair looks great, but it's completely superficial. They're hiding something with it. Best case its hiding a flaw like their true age. Most importantly, it proves they know they have a fundamental flaw and have to hide it.

SCAR17 and FAL are the brunettes of the gun world.

They definitely lack the exotic sex appeal of a redhead, and the over commercialized appeal of a bleach blonde. However, they're dependable and usually more intelligent. They're the type most men end up with after wasting a lot of grief and money trying to make the other two options work out.

Great post! LOL!

Oh you're gonna be in trouble now Gary!

Oh and like Ray said, it's a good post. Very informative and entertaining!

Looks like its time to start reloading Skunk.

I think some of the new gen of AR10s are true blondes but you do have to be careful and check the roots also stock up on replacement parts because there are still variations.

I agree with most of this assessment, especially the redheads, but noticed you missed a category.
So what fills the world majority Raven slot?
For me it would be a Vepr or barring that, Saiga, with CSSpecs mags for the .308 version of 3rd world simple yet reliable that is also super easy to work on if needed. The Vepr as a .308 AK is as accurate as any FAL or M1a I've shot, if not better with same optics. I would feel perfectly comfortable with no spare part beyond just an extractor that I would likely never need if I had to go for the long haul with one, with or without optics.

I still prefer the smaller caliber of 5.45 for weight savings on ammo with the same weapon design. If I need to take a shot longer than the effective 500 meters, I will either find a way to get closer or just pass on the shot. The 54r version is quite a thumper too, but magazine options are very limited for now.

Forgive my myopia...

Raven = FAL

Correction....

Redhead = M1A
Bleach Blonde = AR10
Brunette = SCAR
Raven = G3
Natural Blonde = FAL

Lol perfect

Nice.

I miss my G3 she was fun but heavy and expensive to feed. ;-) How did that moped joke go?

7.62x51 / 308 is very expensive, but I think demand is decreasing because prices are too. I recently saw "milspec" 7.62x51mm NATO FMJ for $8.75 / 20 rounds. This was brass case ammo.

$437.50 / 1000 isn't "cheap" but it isn't that much more than quality brass case 5.56x45mm.

I shoot Wolf 223 all the time, but haven't had the heart to buy any steel case 762NATO. Now that brass case prices are dropping I might be able to get some use out of my Scar-17 or FAL.

The decrease in price is what is sucking me back into the 308 battle rifle idea.

Not much a person cannot handle with a quality 7.62x51mm.

Been thinking about getting a bolt gun chambered in .308. I have an old Remington 788 that shoots straighter than I do, but lately I've been wanting something more modern. I'll be staying away from the Ruger GSR thanks to some of the stuff I've read here. I'll probably go with something made by Savage.

I have enjoyed all my savages I would also recommend the howa rifles.

I had a Howa-made Weatherby and I agree.

I saw Daniel Defense now has a .308 AR pattern rifle

Savage has there own version of a scout rifle. It looks interesting.

I have been on a bit of a warranty kick lately. I wanted a Savage 116 in .270 until I found out that Savage only gives 1 year to the original owner. While it's maybe not a deal breaker it does make me think I should look elsewhere first.

I have no personal experience with Savage rifles, but know several shooters who swear by them.

Adam - you're right to stay clear of the Ruger Scout.

I always liked the Remington 7 in 308. Super light and compact but very accurate. I had one in CDL trim - it was very classy.

If I were in the market for a 308 bolt action today, I'd be looking for a Winchester Classic Featherweight Stainless.

That would be answer rifle Architect

In a bolt gun...

Sako + Tobler + McMillian + Leupold ....