I did a little comparison today, just out of curiosity. I compared the Cold Steel Rajah II with the SODLE, the Condor Combat Machete with my DFLE, and even used a Fiskars saw and my Rat Trap. I was just testing out what tools worked best for some woods tasks vs their size and weight. I did some slashing, chopping, splitting, sawing and slicing. When I was done, I wondered how my new Scrapper 5 would do if it were my only tool. It did just fine. I took my baton and beat the S5 into a thick piece of hardwood to chop it in half.


Once my notch was cut, I turned the wood over and cut through the back, again using a baton.




Then I picked up a gnarly piece of wood and split it using my S5 and baton.




Then I used the S5 to cut some thin slices of wood for fire starting.



I'm impressed with this rugged knife. I think it will become my favorite fixed blade for my little hikes into the woods. This is a versatile knife. I'm quite sure I could skin animals with it as well. I like the thinner stock and superior edge holding of the SR101 steel. I prefer this knife to my YK or Mutts, and I like those. The mudder handles work for me, and the 5" blade is one of my favorite sizes for EDC.

Awesome pics Vic, I agree this should see a lot of time on my belt up in the woods.... (once I get my sheaths.....)

I agree. 5" is just right. The S5 makes a sweet belt knife. I haven't been able to beat mine. I've just used it around the kitchen.

Maybe the infi S5 might just replace my RMD... What a dilemma.

very cool vic... dig my s5

Sweet pics and comparison. I'm sure that convex edge you have on it helps with it cutting much better.

dammit i gotta stop clicking these threads.

Nice Vic! I really need to get a Scrapper 5 the more I look at these threads the more I want one.

I agree with ALL that and more. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

The S5 is a GREAT knife! In some ways I might prefer the S5 to my RMD. There are some compromises and they are BOTH GREAT. But, the lighter weight and general "Handy" size, shape, weight, design of the S5 is HARD to beat. And there just really isn't ANYTHING the RMD can do that the S5 can't.

If I could skeletonize the handle of my RMD to remove some handle weight (and drop the point on my RMD a bit - which I will probably do), then the RMD vs. S5 would even be harder to choose.

Still.... Both right at the top of the list. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

Mag, did you skip on the S5????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

.

Pretty much always the case. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

The Scrapper 5 came with a decent edge, but for fuzz sticks and such, a sharper edge is better. This is a rugged knife for survival or other hard use. It's light weight makes it a knife likely to be carried, and let's face it, a 5" blade can do stuff a 4" blade can't, so this knife is very competitive with the smaller 4" blade survival knives out there with about the same weight.

Well done Vic, and great pics! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Nice job and photos HD. I hope to get out with mine manana. I've been too busy to play with it as much as I want, but it hasn't stopped growing on me and it is just handy. I think I like the weight vs the RMD- and it might chop with more comfort. Might knock my Howling Rat out of rotation a bit- that says a lot!

...yes.

That's a shame.

This is a nice blade!

Great pics HD! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

Might want to .... ummmm .... look into fixing that.

INFI is great and all. I know a LOT of people are very excited about it. Which is great too. But, at almost half the price, looks like I will have to stick with my SR-101 and satin finish (done) myself. I LOVE SR-101 anyway and it is AWESOME in every way to me for a knife this size especially - short of corrosion. But, I will just keep dealing with that for the savings.

.

i don't wanna say infi's overrated, because i don't wanna be banned or flamed, but i think sr101 is better for anything smaller than a chopper. it also exceeds all requirements of a chopping steel.

however i would be sick to my stomach if i ever saw a battle mistress made from anything other than infi.

mythrial unobatnium?

YES!!! Knife-through-a-table pics!
Where are the car hood ones?

bring your car over!

How 'bout just a hood(not short for hoodlum)?

Ok, I think you just won the, "That's not a baton, THIS is a baton." award.

fastcamo, your sig rocks.

i have you guys covered with the car hood pics.

DMCG. accept no substitutes.

i can't believe i even considered selling this knife.

That's good, but a Cold Steel Tanto can go through car doors!

Lost your keys again?

BAM! That's how you do it!. Nice work. What did the car owner think?

car was headed to the heap anyway. scrap value goes no lower than $500, which is what was comin.

I think there is a Scrapper 5 out there willing to take on the DMCG's challenge.

hehe nice.... yea i wanna see a s5 lol

I think the government should make the "Cash for Clunkers" cars available to us for testing.

I have some old valve propane cans that i need to dispose of...... any one got a car seat?

i'd love a carbon v recon tanto. or sk5, if they made one.

Mag,

Check your PM box.

I was just kidding. SR77 is much tougher than Carbon V steel. But those old CS knives were pretty darned good in their day. Lynn might be the master of hype, and no real knife maker, but he got a lot of us started on "high performance" knives.

This is true HD

for anyone who is completely blind, ksjumpmd is one of the greatest guys alive.

Nice little review of what the S5 is up to. So, the BDLE is going to be regulated to the occasional carry?

Regardless of whatever happened because of this post, I agree with you 100% I think everyone else's S5 is worth more due to his generosity.

Good question. The little Bird Dog has been my favorite for carry, lately. I guess I just have too many great knives in the 4" to 5" size. Some, like my Fosters, Ritter, Benchmade Nimravus, BRKT Wet Enviro, and Fallkniven F1 just sit in a drawer. Others, like my SS4, BD, Bravo-1, Mountain Man, Ratmandu, DMDC, and Mora 2000 see at least occasioal use. After the confidence building tests I've done on the S5, I think it is THE ONE. I love this knife!

And the mighty RMD takes a hit!

I have searched in vain for a 5" knife I like better than the Ratmandu. The new RC-5 is just too fat and heavy. Same with the Busse BATAC. The Dumpster mutts are light and compact, but the handles are a bit cramped for me. I broke my BRKT Vest Pocket Bowie in half batoning with it. But this Scrapper 5 has all the performance of the RMD at lighter weight. And the mudder handle fits me about as well as the RMD's excellent handle. I rate this S5 at the top of the 5" knife heap. Now if Mike Stewart makes a 5" Bravo in CPM 154, that might compete.

I have a real hard time between the S5 and RMD, I like the lighter version but the RMD's handle is so nice

Yep. While the blade style is a bit different, I think the S5 is a SY version of the RMD. A 5" long 3/16" thick saber ground blade of 52100 steel just works for me. And the mudder handle beats the heck out of the small handles on the YK and DM, even if it isn't quite as nice as the RMD handle. My only compaint with the RMD is the weight. It's a heavy knife for its size.

Which scales do you have on your RMD? I had a G10 version for a short time and did not like it. I am guessing I would have liked the micarta version better.

I have both. The micarta handle feels better to me, but the black G10 looks better. The micarta one feels a little thicker, too.

I really like the S5 too.
The RMD has been in the drawer since I got this one, but I'm going to
have to really get the two out and check them out, side by side.

Has anyone tried that yet?

The G10 one I had, at least, seemed very smooth and did not seem to provide much traction. I have felt other manufacturers applications that provide much more grip.

I knew I was forgetting something. Why don't you do a little comparison for us?

yes, please! +1! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the review and great pictures HD. My entry into this addiction was CS. Master Hunter. After reading reviews on the then new Camp Tramp, I became a member of the Swamprat team. Feeding my addiction I then grabbed a few of Busse Combat. I watched Dan and Co grow now through the years and have many of his offerings.

I have almost sold my soul to the RMD. I look forward to getting my paws on the S5LE in infi. It will take one heck of a knife to bump the illustrious RMD from it's perch.

But, if someone like you, who so obviously tests his equipment can make such a claim, then the gauntlet is thrown back in Eric's court.

And we're all winners.

Yikes! A gauntlet thrown in Eric's court? Talk about mixed metaphors. Yeesh.

No gauntlet. The Ratmandu can do anything the Scrapper 5 can do and maybe a bit more with its full tang construction. It's just a matter of preference. The Scrapper's Res C handle is lighter, but you can beat on the Ratmandu's full tang handles without harming them. I like them both, but it's nice to have a lighter knife sometimes. And then there are those pesky squirrels who eat Res C.

I am like you on this S5 Vic. The S5 (now satin and convexed with some other minor tweaks) is at or near the TOP of my 4.5" - 5" heap right now. It just offers a GREAT blade shape, Incredible steel, awesome fit, feel, ergos (and balance after the Res-C mods) at a lighter weight comparable to most 4" bladed knives and can do about anything as well or better than most any knife in it's 5" bladed size catagory. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />



--------------------




I agree with both of you on the RMD as well.

I actually prefer the blade "Shape" of the S5 more with it's arched spine and dropped point. I find this blade shape more versatile for task/chore type uses. I actually dropped the point on my S5 just a bit more.

The RMD is still an AWESOME knife and a worthy contender to the S5 and I DO like the fit/feel/ergos of the RMD's handle, but I also feel the S5 is just as comfortable and just as capable a knife at a lighter more carry friendly weight.

But, while I like the feel and function of Res-C, I do like the nicer looks and quality of micarta. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

The two best improvments I feel that could be made to the RMD would be to "skeletonize" the RMD's handle/tang to cut weight and have it's blade shape a bit more like the S5's (Mini SJTAC shape) - arched spine/dropped point. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" />

* For the record, my favorite Bark River (although a shorter 4.0" Bravo length blade) is the Canadian Special:

With Vex:



The BRKT Canadian Special might look odd to some and some won't be able to deal with it's lack of a guard, but for me it works like a CHAMP and feels like a natural extension of my hand (nice satin/convex grind and sheath as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/paperbag.gif" alt="" />)

In many ways, the S5 is like my Canadian Special (to me), but with choil, a larger/longer blade and Res-C.

The VEX is also VERY nice for it's size. But, I am REALLY liking this 5" blade on the S5 "WITH" it's light weight. Most 5" blades are just a bit heavy.
The S5 with it's 5" blade length on a knife that weighs comparable to most 4" bladed knives is AWESOME!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" />

I have said it before and I will say again:



When I worked on my Bog Dog II concept, I was originally think about a 4.5" blade. But, I now I would rather have the Bog Dog II concept with about a 5.0" blade. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Concept Rats!!! - Rat Jack & Bog Dog II

I would still be VERY interested in the Rat Jack concept as well!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" /> .... and would also WISH for the Rat Jack concept to ALSO have the skeletonized tang! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

I am VERY willing to bet Jerry could make a LOT of sales on those two. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> I WISH he would!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

.

+1

I have both and concure. My G10 feels narrower and is more rounded/radiused.
My micarta feel fatter and is more square.

But, the G10 still weighs about 1 ounce more.

Along with "Wishing" for a skeletonized tang on my RMD, I have always wanted to round/radius the scales a bit more.

It has been on my list of things to do for a long time. But, I just haven't spent much belt sander time in a while.

.

that's one of the better vex pics I've seen

Thanks.

I don't usually get good quality pics. But, sometimes get "Lucky".

This is my personal favorite of the Vex though:



I LOVE the linen micarta!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> Gorgeous to me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" />

I think I had a good outdoor lighting day. Outdoor (natural) lighting seems to work very well "sometimes"! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


Here are some others:

Various in hand angles:











Compared to HCLE with different grips aligned to show more handle and usable blade of Vex in a smaller smaller package vs. two grips of HCLE.

* Other than the HCLE's handle being a bit small for me, on a knife sized like the VEX and HCLE, I think NO choil is a much better option IMO.
I just don't need to choke up on a 4" blade. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />









-------------------

As much as I LOVE the S5 for it's little bit extra size and all-round abilities, the VEX is IMO probably the BEST smaller 4" or so knife from ALL Busse and kin choices I have handled. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" />

The S5 is probably better IMO for woods/trail/camping all-round use.

But, the Vex is probably a better choice for those looking to EDC a fixed blade or just want a little lighter and smaller blade.

Even with linen micarta, the Vex is lighter because of it's thinner steel and over-all size.

I haven't been able to use my Vex much. Just a bit around my house. But, it is a SLICER by design and came pretty sharp. I believe once I get a "Great" edge, the Vex will be a MEGA slicer!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

But, the S5 is much more robust and tougher steel. And SR-101 gets NICE and sharp!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

Between the S5, Vex, M9LE, Waki, NMSFNO, Regulator, re-release of DFCG in desert color and such, we have been given some GREAT knives in recent months. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I have to include the Killa Zilla. I couldn't afford nor justify with it's WAY high price. But, I was fortunate to see and handle in person and even if too high priced for me and IMO, it is still AMAZING! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Some of the new guys have come at an "Opportune" time! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />
And us older guys are lucky to still be around. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

"Classics" have been recently released. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" />

.

Ouch. The SRKC HCLE is one of the few from them I own and don't like much. That blade should have/could have been 4". Eric produced a few 4" HCLE's that sold at Blade, but I could not get ahold of one. Maybe one day I'll sell the 3.5" HC, but it's tough for me to part with any steel. Not counting the metallurgy (154CM), it's the knife that should have...for it's given purpose.

I have both the 3.5" and 4.0" HCLE's and I do prefer the 4.0". But, I think they are both good as far as "blades" go.

My issue with the HCLE is the handle. It is just too short for me and doesn't quite fit my hand or feel good in my hand. Also, neither the 3.5" or 4.0" HCLE need a choil. They both would be WAY better with a longer better fitting handle and no choil..... That is what the Vex offers! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

The Vex has about the same blade length as the HCLE 4.0 - the Vex actually has about a 3/32" longer blade (just under 1/8"). But, without the choil, even with more blade, the Vex offers a much better fitting handle length while still being shorter oal.

Outside of the handle, it is actually amazing how close the 4.0" HCLE to the SS4. There are a LOT of similarities between the HCLE's blade and the SS4's blade. Same length from choil to tip, same edge shape/curve and just small differences in grind height and spine shape that are less a factor.
So, I can't bash the HCLE's blade and I actually feel the choil on the HCLE is even a bit better than the SS4's. Further, the HCLE was satin, which I WAY prefer (although, my SS4 is now satin after a LOT of work.)

But, the SS4 has a handle that FITS!!!!... feels good, balances well, etc.

And without a handle that fits or feels right, the HCLE in either sized blade just can't do it for me. And I don't see a worthwhile solution for fixing either handle. I would have to grind the tang down to make it hiden or partially hidden and completely rebuild the scales.... which isn't going to happen.

For some reason, I can't sell my HCLE's either. But, neither is a user and I don't see either being used. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


The HCLE reminds me of the Fehrman Peace Maker (which I sold one I had) - Great build quality and finish, good blade shape and design, great steel (I might slightly prefer 3V over 154CM for some reasons), but Fehrman's small handles doen't fit me worth a FLIP!
Conversely, Fehrman's Last Chance (which I also sold the one I had) has a very nice and comfortable handle, but REDICULOUSLY big and chunky for it's blade length. And VERY handle heavy - which I personally hated in the Swamp Rat M6. And NEVER was interested in the ASH1CG or BATACLE which are also to heavy/chunky vs. size for my preferences. IMO the handle on the Last Chance is suited for a VERY large chopper - such as the Final Judgement (probably - as I don't have the Final Judgement and have never handled. But, it seems like an ideal handle size for a large chopper - NOT for a 5.5" bladed CHUNKY-as-heck knife - IMO).


For comparison:

Fehrman Last Chance = 16.0 ounces; .25" thick; 5.5" blade; 11.0" oal

----------------

Similar Busse overly HEAVY "TANK"/Anchor knives:

BATAC-LE.......= 16.3 ounces; .25” thick; 5.00” blade; 10.75” oal
M6.............= 16.2 ounces; .235" thick; 6" blade; 11.68" oal
ASH1 – CG......= 21.0 ounces; 0.320” thick; 6.4” blade; 12.0” oal

---------------

Other much more reasonable proportioned knives:

S5CG................. = 6.75 ounces; .185” thick; 5.125” blade; 10.125” oal
Ratmandu (G10)........= 11.0 ounces; .189" thick; 5.3125" blade; 10.5" oal
Ratmandu (micarta)....= 10.0 ounces; .189" thick; 5.3125" blade; 10.5" oal

SAR5................. = 11.0 ounces; 0.200” thick, 5.0” blade; 10.0” oal

Desert Jack (stripped)= 10.0 ounces; .175” thick; 6.0” blade; 11.25” oal

DMCG..................= 9.0 ounces; .270" thick; 5.25" blade; 9.75" oal

Scrapper 6 LE.........= 12.7 ounces; .268" thick; 6.25" blade; 11.44" oal

SJTAC(stripped)...... = 13.0 ounces; .187” thick; 6.375” blade; 11.875” oal

Skinny ASH (ASH1).....= 15.25 ounces; .1875” thick; 6.4” blade; 12.0” oal



IMO, Fehrman would make great knives if he could get his handle sized and general proportions sized right. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> - and the HCLE is an unfortunate casualty of an undersized handle that just does NOT work for me.

If the HCLE had the handle length of the HRLM, but slimmed down a bit in width and height, the HCLE would have been great.

As is, the Vex BLOWS the HCLE away for me. The Vex's handle fits and feel great even if slender in width. The Vex is veyr confortable. And I actually prefer the Vex's blade shape and more dropped point / shallower bellied edge. The Vex just works: Great design, GREAT Fit, Feel Finish and ergos, great balance, nice weight, good steel and it is "ALL knife", no waste. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif" alt="" />

For a smaller Busse and kin knife, I have not seen any better than the Vex. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

But, for the next size up and a bit more all-rounder, I think the S5 might be the new champ! .... until Jerry makes a skeletonized handled RMD in SR-101 with more dropped point. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />


..... or make the SHBA with-OUT a choil and with a skeletonized tang!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Normal choil at top and IMPROVED/Fixed version at bottom. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />




.... The SHBA concept without choil and skeletonized tange and the RMD with skeletonized tang and dropped point (both in SATIN) are two Grail knives HIGH on my list. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

.

Rat Jack and Bog Dog II look SUPER! Those are great concepts. Your like reading my mind! Yes, skeletonize - even simplified holes could work well.

I never really got to see any good pics of the vex so I stayed away from it, now after seeing your pics KG. that looks like the blade I'm after, so I guess my search is on, I had a chance at the ganza but didn't take it from what I saw of it before, I have the 3.5 HC and want just a little bit more blade. So thanks for the pics. I do want a vex now!

SR-77 is better for that...try making a hole like this with the S5. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

KnifeGuy, both of those blades pictured remind me a bit of the SAR4s. Personally, I am not big on choils. I do see how they "can" make sharpening easier.

The reason I sold my Game Warden is because the choil was always snagging on tissue when cleaning deer. The year I had the GW, it was used on around 10-15 deer and when you're cold bloody and tired the little things like snagging kinda grate on you.

I wish maybe I would have just kept it for an EDC though sometimes. But again, a folder works for most my day-to-day GW sized tasks. The SAR4 would be about the best all around hunter Busse has made IMHO. We will see...

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ... Which "Both"????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Are you talking about both SHBA's: one with choil as produced and my photo-chopped modified version without?


Seems like a small modification and they are pretty similar. But, the "Improvement" is HUGE IMO. I am not even sure if I would be interested in the SHBA at a GOOD price if it had the sharpening choil. Whereas I would be ALL OVER the SHBA with no choil. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />




If so, I agree to some extent:

Not my pics, I don't own either, but somebody else (can't remember whom I harvested these pics from) thinks the SAR4 could be converted into something similar to the SHBA.






...... Only problem is that it looks like it would be hard to get rid of the choil. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

.... But, at least by removing a LOT of the handle, the mods would improve the weight and balance of the SAR4. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I personally WAY prefer the SHBA over the SAR4. But, STILL don't want the choil.





Hmmm, I must need therapy..... for me, just seeing that dang choil in pictures and "Thinking" about it GRATES on me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


Personally, I HATE small non-functioning choils that are only intended for sharpening and not big enough for a finger choil - ESPECIALLY on smaller knives.

I WISH Jerry would change his fixation on these sharpening choils on smaller knives. Just drop them period. And if a "Finger" choil is justified on "Larger" knives, fine, but make it functional and preferably closer into the handles. Many of the choils on larger knives have historically been pretty far out from the handle and eating into the functional blade - which is a double-negative. Too much reach when choked up doesn't feel as natural <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" /> and too much wasted blade. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" />

I guess if sharpening on a stone or similar, a sharpening choil might be something "Some" people want.

*** BUT, Jerry's sharpening choils are WAY too large for just sharpening choil and yet still way too small for finger choils on certain knives like the AD, GW, Meaner, SAR4, SHBA and many others.

And "I" would STILL rather NOT have a sharpening choil and I personally don't find a need for a sharpening choil.

Sharpening choil pros:

1) Helps prevent rubbing stone, belt, strop or similar sharpening device up against guard. ... THAT IS IT! No other pros! ... Not even aesthetics IMO if designed well. I think my photo-chopped/modified concept of the SHBA looks WAY nicer than the actual knife with sharpening choil.
Similarly, I think my photo-chopped/modified concept of the AD without choil looks WAY better (AND more functional!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />)



But, I would MUCH Rather deal with some rubbing when sharpening and scratches caused by such. If I intend to use the knife (which is the "Idea"!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> , the improved functionality of the knife is MUCH greater value than the annoyance of some rub marks on my guard on a "USER". I have a LOT of knives where the sharpened edge goes right to the plunge line. Over time, typically the edge at the plunge line gets a little sharpened radius at the plunge line. So what!..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> - Still cuts GREAT!... and doesn't snag.

If the plunge line AND sharpened edge were to go right up to the guard (or Talon Hole) like on my photo-chopped SHBA, the guard/Talon Hole serves as a stop/guide for the material when push cutting and a stop that doesn't snag in most other cutting situations. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Sharpening choil cons (WAY more Cons than Pros and each cone individually outweighs the single pro of a sharpening choil IMO):
1) Snags material when slice cutting as it rides up and fall into choil
2) Or similarly, but still Snags material when you are push cutting up close to blade that falls into choil <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
3) Wastes otherwise useful blade area
3) Pushes sharpened blade area too far away from grip - ESPECIALLY Jerry's over-sized sharpening choils! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />



The GW, AD, Meaner and even the SAR4 should NOT have "Sharpening" choils AT ALL - IMO.

The GW and AD with their short blades should not have ANY choil period.

I personally feel the Meaner, SAR4 and SHBA would be better served without ANY type of choil at all, but I can appreciate where some people might like a useable finger choil to choke up on. The SAR4 is debatable. A finger choil might be fine if the Talon Hole were dropped (or considerably smaller) and it had a "Small" guard.

The SS4 is basically a Meaner with a usable finger choil (The SS4 is WAY BETTER than the Meaner IMO!)
And the SAR4 is jut about as long in blade as the S5 which has a finger choil.

The SHBA is 4.5" in blade and I think it would be better without a choil.

The RMD has a 5.25" blade. I think I might drop the point on my RMD to be more like my S5. When I drop my RMD's tip, I will loose right at about 0.25" and my modified RMD will have RIGHT at the same blade length as my S5.

I will take either the S5 or RMD ANY Day and EVERY day over the SAR4 or SHBA if those Busse's have the over-sized sharpening choil - which they do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I passed on the SAR4 mainly because of the choil: too large for a sharpening choil and to small for a finger choil.
But, while I have not handled the SAR4, I am concerned about the handle size, weight and balance.
From comparing pics of the SAR4 to the RMD and knowing how well the RMD's handle feels and balances, I am quite concerned that the SAR4's handle will be too heavy for my preferences.

In comparing dimensions:

Ratmandu (micarta)....= 10.0 ounces; .189" thick; 5.3125" blade; 10.5" oal
Ratmandu (G10)........= 11.0 ounces; .189" thick; 5.3125" blade; 10.5" oal

SAR4 LE (micarta).....= 14.0 ounces; .220" thick; 4.875" blade; 10.75" oal
SAR4 LE (G10).........= 15.0 ounces; .220" thick; 4.875" blade; 10.75" oal

So, about a 1/2" shorter blade and still 0.25" longer oal. Some of that is RMD with "Functional" finger choil vs. SAR4 with worthless sharpening choil. But, most is LONG and HEAVY handle in the SAR4. Also, the .220" tang is going to add a lot of weight in the handle. Based on specs and pics, it seems obvious the SAR4's handle is WAY heavier than the RMD's.



Then if that wasn't enough, I saw pics of the SAR4 compared to the Skinny ASH. And realized the SAR4 with a 4.875" blade weighs as much as my HR or Skinny ASH which are both PLENTY chunky IMO and offer WAY more function than the SAR4.

Hell Razor.......= 14.75 ounces; .1875” thick; 6.625” blade; 12.75” oal (est.)
Skinny ASH (ASH1)= 15.25 ounces; .1875” thick; 6.4” blade; 12.0” oal

Also, I have large hands and find the Skinny ASH's handle to be "Plenty" roomy.
But, the SAR4' handle appears like it would be more suitable to fit a SARSQUATCH! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />







Hmmm.... to each their own. I still do NOT want a sharpening choil, but I think the SHBA is a better design than the SAR4 by a good margin in my book. Eliminate the choil on the SHBA like shown in my photo-chop and skeletonize the tang and re-release the SHBA with these modifications at a "Reasonable" price... or just sell it in SR-101 at half the price of INFI. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> ... and I think you have a pretty good winner. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Also, the SAR4 costs WAY more than my RMD and I think the RMD is a WAY BETTER knife design. I "CAN" modify my RMD to have a bit more dropped point. And I might research into having the tang skeletonized by a local water-jet cutter if I can get it done cheap enough.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

My RMD already blows the SAR4 away IMO, but with those Modifications and still way cheaper = No comparison IMO.


So, I passed on the SAR4 for MANY reasons.



I am a folder for EDC guy. Sure, some fixed bladed knives have better feel or proportions than many folders. But, I have some very nice folders that fit and feel fine. Sure, a fixed blade is tougher. But, I don't pry with my folders and have never had a folder break. I know their limits and haven't needed to surpass those limits. Whenever I can, I try to use the appropriate tool for a job. And folders are not meant for some of the things I see people use them for (prying, screwdrivers, etc. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />)

But, folders are VERY convenient for carry. They carry WAY more compact and easier. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> And so many good folders open VERY easily with one hand these day. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> So, folders are really a no brainer for EDC for me.


I never had a GW. But, I did have a Rat Warden and I couldn't stand the handle on the Rat Warden. I didn't like the skeleton frame without scales (*** although - I do SERIOUSLY wish some other knives had skeletonized tangs - under scales <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />)
The Rat Warden handle just did not fit or feel worth a crap to my hands.
And from comparing pics, the GW and Rat Warden had very similar handle shape and size.



For me, if I want a small utility / Skinner knife, Busse just honestly doesn't have a good option smaller than the Vex - IMO.
Honestly, since I carry folders for EDC and prefer 4" blade or larger for trail and woods, I don't really carry much smaller than the Vex. But, I own a few.
And Bark River totally "Dominates" over Busse for design in this catagory. Sorry.

The Mini Skinner 6.375" oal and Mini Northstar 7.125" oal are both much better IMO than the GW at a small fraction of the price and come satin, full convex and with a sheath. I had to just slightly grind the index finger groove forward for a bit more room on my Mini Skinner. But, now a great fit for it's size and better fit in handle with similar sized cutting edge in a smaller package vs. the GW.

And even WAY better still (as much as I LOVE my Canadian Special) is my Lil Canadian which is a 7.125" version of my Canadian Special. The Lil Canadian is EASILY my favorite sub- 8" fixed bladed knife. Full four finger and VERY comfortable grip (much more secure and roomy than the GW), Great shaped 3.125" blade with more usable edge than the GW - again, full convex, satin, A2 blade and again with a sheath.

Considering the GW is about 7.0" vs. the Lil Canadian at 7.125", they compare and the Lil Canadian SPANKS the GW IMO. The Lil Canadian (as with the Canadian Special) is (like the Vex) ALL function! No wasted space frills like the smaller Busse blades with sharpening choils and Talon Holes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Mini Northstar, MPLE and Lil Canadian:



Then for other 6.5" - 7.5" oal options, there is the Highland Special 7.625", Woodland Special 6.87", Imp 6.125", Kephart Companion 6.775", Mini Kephart 7.6", Custom Canadian Special (a bit larger at about 8.15", but great knife - I have 3 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />), etc.

The Spyderco Mule is a little larger and good general design, but build your own scales project blade. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

The Greco Dangler at about 6.875" is a good design even if not as nicely finished as many others.

I am sure I could go on.....

I have TRIED to offer ideas and suggestions to help improve Busse and kin smaller knives (I would LOVE to see the AD/BAD without a choil!), but..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" />... I guess Jerry sees things differently. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

.

Quote:
The SAR4 would be about the best all around hunter Busse has made IMHO. We will see...


No way, its too bulky,, K.G. explained it real well

Well... I am just posting "My" opinion based on "My" perspective and logic.

I can't say that nobody else would think it is great - in fact many people have posted on the Busse forum how much they like it. Sometimes I don't understand other people... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />, but such is life.


Also, different people have different definitions of "Hunter" or hunting knife (????)
When I think hunting knife, I think of a knife that needs to be good at skinning and game processing "First" and other tasks and chores second.
For me, while I view many/most of my knives first as camping, trail, woods-bumming knives, I consider many of them "capable" of skinning and game processing in a pinch or secondarily. But, that isn't such a challenge IMO either. Most any knife that can cut could process game in a pinch. I can process game with a box cutter or a sharp machete if I needed to. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

But, I think certain knife designs "Excell" at skinning and Game processing. I consider a good skinning and game processing knife somewhat of of a specialist type blade that "can" do other things. But, excells at it's primary function first.


I think people get the INFI bug and loose reasoning. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/loopy.gif" alt="" />. On paper (computer monitor <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), the SAR4 has nice flowing lines and I could see where some might think it is sexy (if not always looking for functional flaws like myself.)

The SAR4 scales have "Appealing" style! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> -

I can see where the SAR4's handle shape with it's flared butt might be comfortable, but I would always be thinking: "What a FAT, overly-long and HEAVY handle" (like the SAR5). And like the SAR5, I will always be thinking about how I need to chop and grind it down. - which I will do on my SAR5 some day. But, I was able to get the SAR5 at a "Reasonable" price..... what was it around $167 with micarta?... I will stop my price comparison considerations there.

The blade on the SAR4 "IS" at least convexed and satin. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

And although I personally prefer more of a drop point on most of my knives, I prefer a dropped point because most of my knife use is for task, chore, woods-bumming uses (not terribly unlike SAR type uses <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ) and I find a dropped point excels for my uses over a trailing point or similar designs with lots of belly and a high point.

But, for skinning, I think that blade shape with a trailing, sweeping high point and belly works well. Or even a tighter radiused belly than the SAR4. However, for skinning, I think the SAR4 is WAY heavy. I like a secure knife for game processing, but nimble and "Skinny" blade - not fat, chunky and cumbersome.
But, I also like a knife I can manuever my hand around in MANY different holds. I don't use a pinch grip hardly EVER in woodsbumming, but I use it often in skinning.

Personally, for skinning and game processing, I like a slender and lightweight knife - blade AND handle. Length can vary depending on game. But, I still prefer slender and light-weight.

I have to be honest again. While I am a HUGE fan of Busse and kin for toughness and field use blades, when it comes to game processing designs, Busse and kin doesn't excell so much. And while many woods-bumming knives can cross-over and do will for game processing/food prep, there really are not many Busse and kin blades that I feel "Excell" at "Dedicated" game prep. In all fairness, I am not sure that is Busse's target. They tend to target the military/EXTREME/survival audience a bit more. And also different people might have different preferences for such a knife.

In any event, I honestly think Bark River, Dozier and many other offer MANY choices better suited for game processing and skinning compared to Busse offerings.... unless you define hunting knife as a knife intented to stalk and kill your prey with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think the Howling Rat I & II can both process game well - although a little tall for my preferences in a processing blade. I don't have the MUK, but it should be pretty good. The Vex should be pretty decent, but it's dropped point (which I prefer) is actually good for woodsbumming and "decent" at game processing IMO.

Actually, while I have slammed the HCLE's handle, I have "Missed" the HCLE's calling. The 3.5" HCLE is actually a pretty darn good game processing knife IMO. And probably one of Busse's better options for that. I use the handle a LOT different for game processing and it's blade is well suited for it. But, I still think the handle could have been better and still be a better knife over-all with a better handle.
The HCLE fits and feels good in a pinch grip. I actually think the 3.5" blade HCLE is better for game processing compared to the 4.0". But, the 4.0" HCLE is better for more versatile uses.... if the handle was better.

Fastcamo, try holding that HCLE as you would for various skinning or game processing task - in multiple hand holds. In those types of uses, while I would still think the HCLE would be better served with a better handle, the feel of the HCLE improves. What do you think?

For the record, anything I like about the HCLE, I still prefer the VEX for all-round versatility use. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But, the HCLE does have more belly and edge sweep with a higher point which is just a bit better blade profile for skinning IMO. - When you get to processing meat or food in general though, I still prefer the Vex. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

And probably one of the BEST looking "skinning" blades I have seen from Busse is (ALMOST!) the recent HACK (not the pitiful Bear Cub. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />) But, the HACK is WAY to thick and chunky at 0.25" (or 0.22" ????) thick. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> That knife should have been about 0.15" thick <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />...... and I would have bought one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I liked the Hack's design and shape. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> ... But, NOT it's thickness. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" />
The blade shape on the HACK does NOT benefit from being a fatty. And for it's size, it is a fatty. That knife should be more slender and a slicer. 0.15" thick INFI is "PLENTY" strong, tough and stout and no thin box cutter.

Back to the SAR4: I can sort of understand a "SAR" knife being heavy-duty and tank-like to a point - although generally still without having a lot of the weight wasted on so much extra handle that you don't need (like on the SAR5 as well), but I do not understand that sweeping curved edge on a "SAR" knife. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

"Conflicted" knife IMO. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


-----------------

Most of the SAR guys offered their input and had ideas. I was honestly surprised that Jerry's SAR4 didn't look anything like what the SAR guys had been asking for.
Personally, considering the knife was intended for them, I wish Jerry had listened to the SAR guys a bit more. Jerry is obviously a genious at many aspects of knife-making and marketing.
But, the SAR guys "USE" knives like crazy and have a VERY good feel for what they want and need.
Personally, I think the SAR guys had it RIGHT!
I only know part of the story. I had a few discussions with some of the SAR guys back when Jerry was posting concepts and "Asking" for input - especially from the SAR guys.

In the end, I am not sure what caused SAR designs to go in different directions. I as honestly dissappointed. But, in the end, the SAR guys collaborated with Bill Seigle.

Hope it is OK to mention and post their knife and pics here.








<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> Great design! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />


----------

Personally, I obviously think the RMD is better than the SAR4, but I would also take the SAR5 and HRLM easily as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> .... not to mention, the "other" pure function SAR4 design. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

Not a full blown or significantly large enough sampling to call scientific yet. But, over on the Busse forum, there is a thread with people comparing the SAR4 vs. the SAR5.

So far, 9 of 10 chose the SAR5 over the SAR4 . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

A FULL 90%!!!!

Again, not a significantly large sampling yet, but still a pretty staggering lop-sided vote so far. And that is without the SAR5 even being satin and the SAR5's scales are not nearly as pretty and fancy and no melt-down on the SAR5, and Jerry stating how much he hated the SAR5 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.... yeah right. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> , etc. etc.


See: SAR5?

.

I just typed a huge post that was lost...dang it.

Sigh, long story short...

The blade on the RMD is the same as the SAR4 length wise because of the larger choil on the RMD.

I had a Koster Muk in .25" 3v and it was a chunk, the weight didn't bother me much. It was great for skinning but bad for everything else. The cutting edge was right there by your finger kinda like on the SAR 5s and it looked like an accident waiting to happen.

Personally, I like a little point for my cleaning duties, too much is bad though.

I like the Seigle, SAR4 and HG55 handles styles because the work for any hand size. A finger groove or pomel in the wrong place is a pain. Handle sticking out the back still works if its shaped right.

The SAR4 just looks like it might be a good all around hunting blade. I have a little knife that looks like the miniNorthdar with a guard that is great for most of the cleaning duties, great for boneing, but too fragile to pound though the pelvis.

The GW was great for everything but didn't have enough handle to really latch onto when cutting through the ribs/sternum. There was that snagging choil issue too. Also, even though it worked a little more blade length would have made things easier.

I'm just trying to not have to bring three knives into the field with me.

I've never handled either but I hope to soon. Just from looks though I have the same problem with the SAR5 as the Koster Muk.

Ugly doesn't really bother me because they are both pretty ugly.

I prefer the SAR4 though and again I bet it has as much cutting edge as the SAR5.

I prefer the SAR5 to the SAR4 as well. I prefer the S5LE to either.

Why?

I prefer the S5 to the SAR5.

I have done that MANY times now. Considering how long some of my posts are, that can suck BIG time! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I try to "copy" before hitting my Continue button - especially on long posts. Then I can just past back into a new post if it won't continue.

Sometimes when I hit the back button, my post is still there.
But, a few times, it has dissappeard.

... sorry you lost your post.

.

I don't always mind chunky knives. But, I don't generally prefer them unless I want to bash stuff with the knife. Thinner is just more nimble and tends to cut a bit better. With a good convex edge, a thick knife "Can" cut fine, but starts to not be as good if cutting deeper.

As far as weight preferences though, I do try to keep in mind that everybody has a right to their own opinion. To each their own and so on.





I am not familiar with which Koster you refer, but in regards to the SAR5, the integral guard effectively created by the blade is "AS Large" and effective at preventing my finger from sliding over the blade almost as well as most guards on knives of similar size.

But, I am used to using knives without guards and with much less guard than the SAR5. One of my favorite smaller knives is my Canadian Special. I also like the Aurora and many similar knives without any guard. It works for me. And I just know what I can and can't do.

But, I can appreciate where some people might feel they need a gaurd.




I agree. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> But, for skinning, processing, cleaning and similar, I often find that a high point is about as good as a lower point for those tasks.






I agree. I feel similar about thumb ramps, thumb recesses and similar. Sometimes they work, but usually at a cost of not being universal for a larger number of people. And tend to restrict hand movement for various holds. So, while I "sometimes" like a given finger groove, recess, or similar (Canadian Special is a good example), I often just like simple for versatility even for my own hands. As is, the Canadian Special works even if I move my hand around a lot. The grooves on it are not sufficient to prevent hand movement, but do offer good control.

The Seigle has a index finger groove. I don't know how it is. I haven't handled. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />





To a point. But, it depends on how much. I am a stickler for details on many things including knives - obviously.

I have much more issue with things that detract from function. Too much pommel is more of a balance issue, too much length, too much weight. All reasonably minor. But, if it serves no value, I would rather not have it in use or when carrying around. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" />

I can honestly say the SAR5 has too much pommel hanging out IMO. It weights the handle too much IMO. I have a plan in mind for mine. I can fix it.

The SAR4 EASILY looks to have more handle than I prefer.


The RMD has a great handle size. But, I wish they had put the lanyard hole at the back/bottom rather than the back top of the handle. I can't figure that out for the life of me. My only speculation is that Jerry didn't want the RMD to be "TOO" good as to outshine his Flagship Busse-INFI line. But, lanyard hole isn't a big deal either - for me. It still works. And for me, the RMD EASILY outshines most of the Busse-INFI line.... Until he releases something without that sharpening choil. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" /> ... For me, the SHBA without choil and with skeletonized tang would be VERY close to the RMD in value to me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

To each their own again. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

+1

I prefer the S5 and RMD both over either the SAR5 or SAR4.

I can "Make" the SAR5 decent. Mods to make the SAR4 to my liking would be too extensive to be worthwhile.

The S5 and RMD are both dang good from the factory and "Minor" mods make them world class. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

Balance, feel, weight, good blade shape/design for MOST tasks = VERY versatile. Will skin and process game well - even if not the best.

SAR5 is good, but would be better with a bit smaller and lighter handle.

SAR4 is too thick, too chunky, has a USELESS sharpening choil, too long and heavy a handle, likely has poor balance (IMO). Personally, I don't really like the jimping. I haven't handled it, but I don't think I like the cut-out or they way it is done. But, it looks like a tank of a knife that might give you a good urge to grunt like Tim Allen when you hold. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ... But, I think I would find lesser satisfaction in use. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" />

.

Fair enough.... so do I. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

And I like my modified S5 even significantly more than the standard S5.

But, when I modify my SAR5, it will be a much better knife and a worthy contender.

There wil be notable differences between the SAR5 vs. S5 - mostly choil vs. no choil - which also equates to S5 longer over-all vs. shorter SAR5. But, the SAR5 actually has a bit longer cutting edge.... So, compromises as usual.
Also micarta vs. Res-C mudder.

But, they will BOTH be VERY good with some tweaks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

I take that to mean you prefer a guard. And you are implying neither the SAR5 or Vex have a functional guard.

I will disagree.

While neither have a conventional guard, both have a functional and effective guard from the shape of the blade helping to prevent fingers from sliding forward.

The both offer "Secure" and reasonably safe grips.

Some guards do offer more safety - if that is what you need. But, I wouldn't say either the Vex or SAR5 are guardless by my definition. They just provide "Guard-like functions" differently. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

.

Imaginefj,

If you like the SAR5 except for the lack of guard, having somebody add a guard to something like the SAR5 is very feasible.

Outside of just bolsters, there are generally two type of attachable guards: those with a single hole that go over a hidden tang (not what you want) and those with a slot cut from above that is mounted from beneath and pinned. This could be added to the SAR5.

There are many guards to chose from. Some are pre-shaped. Others are just blocks of various metals (nickel-silver, aluminum, brass, stainless, etc.) that need shaping.

Remove the scales. They will need to be ground back behind the guard to fit.

A 2nd hole could be drilled above the Talon Hole (which is flat in the Ricasso, to pin a guard.

To much else to explain, but basically just re-build the SAR5 with a guard.


.... For that matter, many knives can be modified or altered many different ways.

Res-C handles could be modified to hidden tang scales, etc.

.

I just like the blade shape better. I have never used either, so my preference is only based on appearance.

vic
I agree, the size is perfect.

I like mine and hope to use it this summer. I just got back from camp and am heading back out in a week.

I been there on that snag issue.... small choils will definitely snag on tissue..and cold bloody hands hurt enough.. no choil knives work okay... but I have had the handle slip to low...(remember the cold)and then the handle can get slippery..and you know that can get you a cut hand....I actually like a no choil 4-5" blade with a lower guard.... keeps the blade from going in to far.... second choice .. a bigger choil with smooth edges doesn't catch as bad, but allows a choke up point and keeps a low thrust off the handle.(and slipping) ....while not a skinner, I can see the S5 being pretty good...as long as the handle doesn't get blood slippery....blood is weird on handles (you already know this).... I haven't slicked a res-c or a mudder....but I will soon enough on some pork....

Doc

How do you feel the SS4 works in comparison to these knives for skinning, dressing, etc.? It seems like it would make a decent hunting companion. Thoughts?

While in recent years I have not hunted much, I used a Buck Lite on most animals from squirrels to wild hogs. I am pretty sure a good sharp SS4 with that usable finger choil would make a fine skinner. I think the Bird Dog and Scrap Muk would be great skinners, too.

If I'm doing a long post, I write it in Word, then paste it here when I'm done. That way I can't lose it.

Andy, how long before we start terra-forming Mars?

Probably never... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You sure??

No, nothing is certain but death & taxes...but death doesn't get worse every year. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Not as a general rule. But death can be worse, if we trust Oscar Wilde. “Biography lends to death a new terror.” So play it safe and never get famous.

+1

I don't hunt nearly as much as I used to. I also used to hunt a lot of squirrels and wild hogs, but mainly deer.

I also think the SS4 would be very sufficient at skinning, cleaning and processing game. Mostly depends on the game and the user.

Imaginefj mentioned certain knives not being tough enough to "pound through the pelvis". When I grew up skinning/processing/cleaning deer, we just used a hatchet for that. I personally do NOT ever use my knives to split the pelvis. Granted certain stout Busse knives will whack right through the pelvis and I know many people feel the need to cut or break the pelvis bone. But, that bone is typically much harder than wood and will chip or roll most knives quite nicely. To me, it isn't about whether my knife is tough enough to do it. It is about not wanting to sharpen out my chips and rolls out of a good edge if I can do the task with another tool. Or equally bad: now trying to skin and process game with a dull knife. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

***Further, I have found that you can clean deer "Without" breaking the pelvis bone. With a thin/sharp knife (and if being careful), you can cut the intestines out and around the pelvis without contaminating the meat. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I don't hunt much at all anymore. But, if I did, one thing I would probably do is research online to find more tips and tricks about game processing. I assume most of us learned from our parents or similar. And while some of us may have learned some good techniques. I would bet we could all learn a little bit more from the pros who do it a LOT. Same as we learn about knives around here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

One thing I will say about cleaning, skinning, processing game: the knives for such tasks work WAY better if their edges are VERY sharp.
Very few Busse and kin edges come sufficient for my preferences from the factory for these types of chores. .... Luckily, Busse and kin knives "Can" be sharpened and optimized by the owner to work well. Unfortunately, even if recent blades have been better, they generally still don't come so good that I don't feel I need to improve them still. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I frequent Busse and kin knives because I love the toughness of the steel and many of the designs are very nice or at least very close to what I like - short of coatings and edges. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
But, the "Usage" mentallity for most Busse and kin knives "Generally" appears to be more geared towards toughness "first" and survival skills more associated with chopping and prying with "Cutting" being a bit lower on the priority scale. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Other companies that seem to have this focus are RAT, Ka-bar and similar.

Again, luckily, there are MANY Busse and kin knives that can have their edges optimized for cutting and do VERY well once well sharpened. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I have to concede that companies like Bark River, Fallkniven and Marbles seem to put more focus on their knife designs being used for cutting and edges well suited "From the factory" for "Hunters" and woodcraft. Their edges are "OPTIMIZED" from the factory for cutting. And Hunters need edges to "Cut" first. Chopping and prying is secondary and often just intended for specialized chopping and prying tools..... which makes sense to me.

We recently have discussed George Washington Sears. When in the woods, he carried a tool for chopping and wood-type work and a tool for game/food prep and a folder for whittling or other fine tasks. In the woods, the idea is/was not to interchange these tools and that each "blade" or edge had a specific task. And if you notice, his axe was double-bit one for tough chopping and a second for finer detail wood trimming, his Muk and his folder had two more edges = "5" specialized edges - Not one blade to do it all.
*** And this is from a guy who pushed extreme minimalizm to the max. He typically carried less than 26 pounds and 10-16 of those pounds were a canoe! ... with a significant remaining portion being rations and other minimal gear. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> Shows how much he valued a variety of edged tools! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Obviously, the number of blades and specialized edges and justifications for each person can vary. But, I agree with this general principal. Most blades are compromises at best. They tend to be good at some things and not others. IMO, it is not "Best" to try to get one knife to do everything.
Using the blade you want to prepare food with to chop fire-wood isn't ideal. Even AMAZING INFI will get dull and "significant" amounts of sharpening in the field is a PITA! Light touch-ups are all I want to deal with in the field.

So, while I often only carry one fixed knife while hiking (... but, actually probably two or three on most "Real" hikes as I often still carry a folder or two), around camp or if hunting, I would have quite a variety of knives to choose from. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

---------------

I learned how to skin and clean squirrels from my dad and learned how to skin/process deer from my dad and uncle.... Over time, I think I have learned to value what I learned from my uncle on how he used his knives more - otherwise the techniques where similar. I don't remember what brand my dad's most used skinning knife was. But, from doing a quick search, it had a VERY similar blade to the Ka-Bar Skinner, with cheap thin brass guard, stacked leather (althouth my dad's was a more simple oval handle) and with aluminum round pommel. This Ka-Bar Skinner is very similar, but has a funky shaped leather handle with finger grooves - otherwise pretty similar:



I sold my dad's in a garage sale because it was rusted to heck. I guess I am not very sentimental about some things. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Anyway, it was obviously some sort of high carbon and had been poorly stored in sheath for quite a few years since it's last use prior to him passing and me finding it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> The stacked leather was pretty bad and the brass had turned the leather sheath all kinds of nasty green. His old Buck 110 folder did the same - which had also been in it's leather sheath. You can polish the brass back pretty nice and easy. But, the leather ... not so well. Had it been in decent shape, I would have kept it. But, I honestly didn't care for it's style and didn't want to try to salvage it.

The first knife given to me when I was a kid - from my dad, for hunting, was a Buck 118.




I never gave it much thought, but there are some similarities between what he bought for me and had for himself in that both have long skinny blades with a little sweep at the tip.

Now I know a lot of hunters like this and I assume this is what my dad liked. But, I have found this is not my favorite style blade for game. If my Buck 118 had a thin blade, it might have been a decent filet knife. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> And in all fairness, I could skin and process game with it. But, it just isn't my personal favorite either.


I believe his reasons for feeling such a knife was "ideal" were probably flawed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think a LOT of makers, publications and so forth advertise certain knives as "Hunter's" and "Skinners" and so forth that are not necessarily ideally suited for such specific tasks as capable of doing a variety of things decent and not doing much of anything well.

The thing is, I don't personally feel the Buck 118 was well designed for much else either.

While I like 4" + blades for most of my hiking, camping and woodcraft type uses, I also like more spear-point to shallow bellied blades for most of my NON-skinning/game processing uses.

While for game skinning and processing, I have found I actually like 4" to sub-4" blades with good bellied edges either short and tight or sweeping edge curves for skinning and processing.

But, maybe a bit of theory: Maybe my dad came more from the mentallity of 1 knife to do it all and made do with his chosen knife. My dad only had a "Single" fixed bladed hunting knife since I was a kid till he died! And I would guess that knife was older than I am. In the late 70's or so (???), he bought a Buck 112 that I saw him mainly use for task use and an old Case 3 blade folder that I never saw him carry or use. I just found it after he passed away (????).
Actually, at "Camp" for cooking and such, he just brought and used kitchen knives. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. He liked to cook and had a HUGE canvas Duffel bag he carried all kinds of "HEAVY" kitchen gear in. Cast iron and such. We mostly base camped and hunted out of a truck. My dad wasn't so much into hiking. Hiking for my dad was just from the truck to the deer blind and back and gear for that hike was warm clothes and a gun. Or to scout blind locations. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

My uncle on the other hand (my dad's older brother) had quite a few knives, but his chosen knife for skinning game was the spey blade (very small blade) on his Case folder.

While I don't use a folder to skin and process game (too messy to clean), I did learn that you don't need much blade length at all to skin game. For certain processing tasks, a bit longer works better on deer meat, but for skinning, when just using the Buck 118, I found that I was just using the tip and tip belly/sweep for most everything I did. And if you notice the Buck 118, the tip and belly are WAY out far from the handle and most of the blade was long and flat without curve. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />
Over the years, I have learned I skin game much better with a shorter blade usually 3.5" to 4.0" and I found I have a LOT more control with such a blade.

A VERY large proportion of the knives I own are more for trail/camping use and not skinning.
But, I do have a few I consider very worthy for skinning/cleaning and processing deer and other game.

Here are a few I consider to be very worthy for skinning and processing game:



They all have good edge belly curves for skinning. Blades for processing meat can vary a bit more for me.

I probably would favor the Bark River Fieldsman II first (the Barkie with guard), followed by the short Marbles - I don't remember the model. But, many of us were able to pick up those high carbon Marbles blades from DLT for $25 a while back! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> - Thing about the Marbles blades it that to mee both of them are great for skinning and processing and neither are good for my other uses - so very specialized IMO. Although, if I dropped the point a bit on the larger one, it would be much more versatile to me. And third would probably be that short Bark River - Mini Skinner. The Custom is a Jerry Hendrix (not Jimmie) and is very nice - although "UNFORTUNATELY" hollow grind <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" /> and more of a large caper and great for cleaning most any game, but I rank the others better at skinning deer.

The SS4 and the Highland Special (larger Barkie without guard) are very versatile all-rounders. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I have been disappointed in the HCLE for it's too small handle. I wish it were better. I keep thinking maybe I will grind the grip area about 3/16" forward into the guard and create a bit more recess at the back for my little finger for more grip and that might fix it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> But, outside of the handle, the rest of the blade and knife is highly suited for skinning and processing game IMO. It is GREAT in the choked up or pinch grip. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />
If the HCLE had a better handle, it would also be a very versatile all-rounder. And maybe my modification will improve it still... "if" I do the mod. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

IMO, the SS4 is a bit long in the normal grip. But, works and balances well for skinning and processing if choked up or in pinch grip. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

The Howling Rat has lots of belly, but a bit too tall a blade and a big longer and larger over-all for my preferences for skinning and dressing game. Even still, it would be a pretty darn worthy choice with it's shape and light, nimble balance. I just prefer the others a bit more. Maybe I would like the HR more on larger game like Elk or something (????). But, I haven't skinned an Elk yet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

While I don't personally like the handles on the Swamp Rat Warden or the GW and I really don't like skelly handled knives, the blade shape and size of the two Wardens is pretty darn good for "skinning" - "IF" they didn't have sharpening choils that snag so easily. And while I criticize the HCLE's handle, I the the GW/RW have even worse handles.

I mentioned before, but the newest Hack from Blade and the recent Ganzaaa "looks" like it would be a GREAT skinner - it has a good blade shape and profile. However, it is too thick and chunky IMO. So, it coul be great "IF" it were about 0.10" - 0.15" thick and NOT 0.22" - 0.25" or whatever it is. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />

I can clean a deer or small animal with most any knife, but ideally something with a 2" - 5" blade that is not too tall or too thick.

For that matter, I "Can" skin and process game with many different styles, shapes and sizes of knife. But, I have preferences for certain tasks.

I "think" a lot of people carry a larger knife with the mentallity of the larger knife being more of a multi-task tool. - Which it is.

But, for me, cleaning, skinning and processing deer or other game are different semi-specialty tasks. And I tend to justify specialized tools for certain tasks - especially for larger game like deer.

Now days, hunting deer isn't cheap. With most people paying THOUSANDS of dollars for gear and so many people even having 4-wheelers dedicated for hunting and so forth. I don't really understand why you couldn't or wouldn't have 2-3 dedicated knives for certain skinning, cleaning, processing tasks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I don't know about everyone else, but I have historically ALWAYS brought my game back to camp (especially deer) for skinning and processing.

For deer, I would often clean the internals where I dropped him to lighten the load for carrying/hauling to a truck trail and then tail-gate the body back to camp. Camp was typically far in Central Texas.

I generally cleaned the internals with the deer on the ground and tried to keep debris from getting on the meat.

But, we always hung our deer from a tree to skin and process. But, I have seen others wrestle around on the ground on a trash bag or similar. Looks like a big messy PITA hassle that way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


--------------------


I am getting carried away with stories, but the point I was trying to get at and is obvious by the HUGE variety of styles, shapes and sizes of knives called Skinners or Hunters is that there is a LARGE variety of type and game for skinning and processing and there is obviously a LARGE variety of techniques used for the process.

---------------------

Side note:

I don't mind saying one thing I hated about my Buck 118 was my inability to get it sharp. I carried a dull knife growing up and it frustrated me like crazy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I was "Taught" to use a "Good Arkansas" stone and given "ONE" of those little 2 inch pocket stones in a leather sheath. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" />
I actually sliver cut the tip of my left index finger off while holding the stone and sharpening as a kid (taped the tip back on and it healed nicely with a round scar. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> )

But, getting blades sharp was a MAJOR PITA as a kid....... Thanks for the years of sharpening frustrations Dad and uncle! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I wasn't a stupid kid and I knew about different grits and abrasives for sanding wood, but sadly it took me quite a few years to figure out to use different grits to sharpen with. I guess I just had it "programmed" in my head that a knife was ONLY supposed to be used on a sharpening stone. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" />


I remember about 18-20 years ago going to a gun show and a guy there had a booth for sharpening. Any knife: $5.00. He had what I would guess I remember to be about a 2"x72" rig of some sort. I am pretty sure he had a leather belt and know I remember him using some compound on the belt. About a minute or less later, he handed me a VERY sharp knife. I think a light-bulb went off. After seeing that, it left an impression on me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So, as I grew older, I put more effort into learning FAST and EASY ways to sharpen and get good results.

I wish I had a computer and internet back then with Bladeforums and such to have learned much of what I know know. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

------------------


Anyways.... I need to move on now.

.

I use the knife to split the pelvis and it makes gutting the deer alot faster, say...less than 5 minutes. What I do is with the deer's belly facing me, the head up, is just kinda tap the knife with a log or rock into the top of the pelvis. It generally splits the majority of the way down and with your feet on the legs you lift up on the tail and it spits the rest of the way. Then the all the guts, lungs, heart etc come out in one glob when unzipped and I use the windpipe as a handle to drag the whole mess out. It makes for a quick clean with very little blood and mess. You know the drill. It has never damaged an edge of with any of the knives I've used. The little knife I was referering too is my only custom and I just don't want to baton with it.

Another thing that makes the whole cleaning process easier is a good shot. If I'm not pursuing a trophy that means a headshot. I used to think that the practice was crazy and not "sportsman" like for some reason. Now, I think it makes great sense. I've never had a headshot deer run off. I have recovered deer that ran 60 yards with jello for a heart. That might be easy tracking some places but the cover here can get so dense it is easy to lose an animal.

Also, a miss on a headshot is a clean miss. Not that I advise taking shots where you think you might miss.

I hang my deer to quarter them, then to a stainless table to process. Quartering them on the ground is a pain.

From the left I think the 1st, 3rd and 7th blades would be my choices for all around, if you can only have one, "hunting" knives. Reminds of of that scene in Rambo...officer:"what is this for?" Rambo: "hunting" officer: "what do you hunt with a knife" Rambo: "name it".

,

We used a big saw to split the hogs in half.

I've seen people use those roofing hammers with the little hatchet on the back. I'd be in guts or bladder for sure.

A spine shot will drop them in their tracks....every time....

Doc

Nice post. Thanks!

>>> Here are a few I consider to be very worthy for skinning and processing game...

I think the Vex would be terrific for this.

The first knife given to me when I was a kid - from my dad, for hunting, was a Buck 118.



[/quote]

I pretty much disagree with your selection of skinning knives...the Buck 118 and the one your father used are far superior....skinning knives need an upswept blade... I already know we differ in opinions, but I have skinned enough hogs and deer to trust my past teachings and experience...

One thing we can agree on, is that Buck's can be very difficult to sharpen.... their steel early on was very hard....but once you got an edge it would hold up well...later years it was much easier

The best gut opener and skinner ever made is the Wyoming knife.... you may disagree...but thats okay... It has a gut hook, and a short upswept blade.... I can skin a deer or hog faster with that knife than anything else I have ever used....and believe me, I have used a bunch... quartering, butchering, de-boning, etc.... are better left to those knives you depict.... but for gutting and skinning.... sorry, I humbly disagree...

YMMV

Doc

I am not going to baton with any knife....waste of time...


oops... said it again..

hehehehehe
Doc

Lol, I don't really consider it batoning really...just kinda assisting in starting a split in the pelvis.

I think the knives I picked had the most sweep, but you are refering to KG.

Hopefully, I can add another 50 deer to the count of chopped up critters this season. 30 something is my all time record for whitetails quartered in one season. I think it was 33 but I lost count. This season I think I will attach a little stick to my sheath and notch it every deer I clean.

Heck, getting any deer is a privilage.

I got that.... I do it while its hanging....I actually use a meat saw in the field to quarter the animal after skinning....I cut vertically while it hangs and then cut the backbone on each half....PDQ...the put it in the icebox...

Doc