RS,

I appreciate your faith and I hate to dissappoint. But, what I know about steels is a scratch on the surface compared to the pros who work with it, heat treat it and forge it.

I can name qualities I have experienced and read about in regards to use. I can discuss some technical info that I have picked up from more knowledgeable people than myself.
But, I can NOT say I know the MOST about this subject. Sorry.

Some of what "I" believe is JUST "My" opinion based on use experience and LOTS of feedback by others. - I try very hard to make sure I put value in the feedback I take to be worthy.
Obviously, I don't agree with everybody and not everybody is going to agree with my opinions. In spite of my efforts, I have come to conclude that not everybody is going to agree with me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And I have also (sometimes) been able to come to terms with the "Fact" that maybe it is O.K. ( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ) if not everybody sees things my way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


"I" like SR-101's edge properties.... a LOT!
"I" think SR-101 is PLENTY tough for "My" uses! - Obviously, some think they need tougher. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
"I" don't love the fact that SR-101 will rust, but I have learned to deal with it and find dealing with it VERY worthwhile and NOT that hard to deal with. And SR-101 is NOT the worst at corroding. Some VERY highly regarded steels are worse at corroding (like: 1095, 5160, O1, and others) and some VERY highly regarded knife-makers often use those steels because: in spite of being prone to rust, they offer so many EXCELLENT knife qualities: toughness, edge retention and ease of sharpening.

"I" believe SR-77 is AMAZINGLY tough. But, I find SR-101 to be PLENTY tough for me.
"I" can get SR-77 sharp and for certain big choppers, I find SR-77 to have "Sufficient" edge qualities and significantly better than most any machetes or similar tools I am used to dealing with. But, I prefer SR-101's edge qualities quite easily.

Considering combining toughness and edge qualities, I still choose my BR over my DFLE and my CT over the SOD. I did not buy the SOD because I believed my CT is sufficient for my needs and finances are tight. I would not have replaced my CT with the SOD and it would have only served as a back-up.
For those who don't have a CT and can't buy one on the secondary market, the SOD is a GREAT option. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> - But, I didn't need it.

I have my own limits and values when it comes to price.

I might think INFI to be the BEST all-around steel and honestly, I have quite a few pieces of INFI. But, I OFTEN can't justify the price of INFI.

If I had a lot more money, my "Value" system might be different.
If I felt my life were going to ABSOLUTELY depend on a given knife, I would lean towards INFI and make sure it is a knife design I will ALWAYS have around.

Right now, I would LOVE to own a Porsche Cayman. But, I can't even come close to affording or justifying that right now. But, if I had a LOT more money, I would love a Ferrari 430. But, that is just me and "MY" values. Everybody is different.

Knives are NOT that much different.

What one person considers excessive, another considers minimum and vice versa.

MOST people I know consider $40 - $50 a LOT of money for ANY knife.

.... I will just leave it at that. Different values for different people.....


For me, while I might consider INFI the BEST if price is not a concern, I find SR-101 to be one of the BEST values and VERY good at actually doing most everything I want a knife steel to do. For me, INFI might have a higher toughness than SR-101 and better corrosion resistance, but I don't find I need the extra level of toughness and the cost for the improved corrosion resistance is just a bit too high for me in many cases.

..... plus, it often "Does" come down to design for me.

I am STILL not going to get over Talon Holes and non-usable choils on most ANY smaller Busse knife. The SAR4, Meaner, AD and similar just don't work for me. Luckily, for me, on smaller knives, I am even LESS prone to feel I need INFI.

So, SR-101, A2, 3V are ALL VERY good with other designs to be had.

For me, INFI is a BEST value in the mid-sized knives that I might abuse. SARSquatch, SJTAC, FSH, NMSFNO are some of my personal FAVORITE justifications for INFI.

I like the SAR5 a LOT, but I need to do a fair amount of moddifying to it's handle to reduce handle weight and size.

I am and have been interested in owning a Fusion Battle Mistress. But, I love the Res-C on my BR and DFLE for a chopper that even though I consider micarta nicer, I like Res-C for Feel and Function quite a bit on some knives. While I might be proud to own a FBM, I believe when I need it, I would reach for my BR. So, I have not justified a FBM. I did justify a NMFBM (really just a knee-jerk purchase... ), but I got what I expected, a VERY heavy knife that I don't expect to use. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> -
The NMFBM is nice and impressive, but there is NO DOUBT when I need a chopper sized knife, I will still reach for my BR and not the VERY heavy and cumbersom NMFBM.
For that amount of weight and size, I will reach for a WAY cheaper axe over such a high priced knife. I assume there is a good chance I will have to sell my NMFBM some day. For now, it is a queen.

In regards to the "technical" aspects of certain steels, I understand a fair amount, but even I have a LOT to learn and a lot yet I don't understand about hardening, tempering, quenching, annealing, normalizing, decarburizing, Austempering, Austenite, bainite, pearlite, martensite, marquenching, etc. etc. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I may understand many of the terms to a point, but with SO many different steels and SO many different variables among the chemstries of the different steel and what the "intended functional goals" of a given steel might be, and how to actually achieve these processes and end results..... I am "BELOW" novice/amature. Sorry. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

As a user, some of that is just WAY more simple to be left to the makers. And for us users to decide and compare by testing the end results.

If I were to become a knife maker and consider myself "worthy" of knowing ALL about knives, I would feel compelled to learn as much as I could about heat-treating and forging.

But, quite honestly, I think there are a LOT of worthy knife-makers who can make GOOD to GREAT knives and still not have to even get all caught up in that. Sometimes, it is easier to just design, grind, shape and build the knives from well-known quality steels made by respected steel forgers (such as Crucible) and let some other master of heat-treating do the heat-treating.

I am certain Busse does not forge their own steels, but rather has their steels forged for them. Still, I am sure Jerry is VERY knowledgeable about the forging process and how to get what he wants. I am certain he doesn't simply rely on what a forger recommends to him. With years of experience and "MAKING" thousands of knives, you can get there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
But, Jerry obviously heat-treats his steel. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> And I am certain he has "MASTERED" multiple techniques with multiple types of steel for maximum performance. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> And yet, I assure you, even Jerry would tell you there is always some way to make something better. But, better "MUST" be defined by intended use if nothing else.

I have done some of my own field testing. But, I honestly don't do tests like Noss.

I have read a bunch. But, most of what I read compares existing steels. Not about how to work with all or even some of the many types of steels to get certain end results. The book of info would probably fill all the forum pages we have typed over the last 2.5 years! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

I will have to refrain from attempting to learn that, let alone explain it. Sorry.

However, I do know that different steels are better suited for different types of hardening processes.

I assume there are MANY variables on how to perform the different heat-treatments as well.

Some steels are water, oil, salt quench hardened.

Some steels are air hardened. - in A2, the A stands for air-hardened.

If air-hardened, I don't know of a way to differentially heat treat or create a temper line/hamon.... although, it seems possible that there might be a way and some day somebody might (?????)

Hamons and temper lines go way back historically with the Samurai swords.

I think SF has done a very worthy job of outlining some of those techniques. So, for simplicity and since I have been typing a bunch today, I won't try to add too much.

The folding of the steel is not directly related to the temper or hamon. But, more to compliment the temper process and "add" another step of combining desirable end results. The folding can help in toughness and distribution of Various steel properties through the blade. Research San Mai steels and get a sufficient feel for the benefits. However, folding and San Mai is a combining of qualities. Sometimes these qualities are contrasting compromises with the intent of gaining best of both worlds. Depending on alternatives, this can and often has provided the end result being best of both worlds.

Also, INFI is VERY unique in using Nitrogen in the hardening process. The only other steel I know that uses something along this line is H1. But, considering how many different steels are used for MANY industrial uses beyond knives that I am not familiar with, I would assume there might be other options (??????).

Jerry is VERY secretive about how he creates his steel for VERY ligitimate reasons. If certain people knew how to do what Jerry does, someone would likely try to duplicate what he does.

I could mention more technical terms like Gas and liquid carburising and nitriding and on and on. While some of these terms apply to "SOME" steels hardening processes, the truth is I don't know how Jerry does a lot of things to ANY of his steels. And these terms and processes may or may not apply and many combinations and variables of the processes may very well likely be used (??????) How Jerry heat-treats and creates his steel is a mystery for a reason. I could speculate. But, I don't think it is worth my efforts to speculate too much. I don't know and I would have to write pages with half of it being disclaimers and 95% being purely speculative optional scenarios.


It is my understanding that INFI is Air hardened. So, I assume this is one of the main reasons INFI does not have a temper line. With it's use of Nitrogen and it's amazing combination of properties: extreme toughness, excellent corrosion resistance, ease of sharpening and ability to hold incredibly sharp edges, INFI currently rains KING IMO of the BEST all around steel with the best combined properties.

Are some steel more corrosion resistant? - Yes

Are some steel capable of getting and holding a sharper edge? - I think I know of a few.

Are some steels tougher? - Not sure and not that I can say definitely. The only thing close is likely SR-77. But, toughness is a factor of hardness as well. So, I think it is ONLY fair to say tough at comparable hardness levels and with the ability to actually hold a functional sharpened edge. SR-77 is tough, but INFI has better edge properties.

I am getting carried away and need to leave it at that.

I have a bunch of other things I need to get to.

.

RS,

I wasn't trying to get on your case or give you a hard time or "Pin" you for your comments.

I appreciate that you have a LOVE, appreciation and desire for SR-77 and that you support SR-77 with "conviction".

I agree with Dan, I applaud your conviction! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

And I understand that you are not trying to bash SR-101 or say SR-101 is bad. But, sometimes you are SO enthuesiastic about how much you think SR-77 is better and how you discuss what you consider the values of SR-77 to be vs. SR-101 that it "sometimes" comes across poorly for SR-101 when you discuss SR-77 vs. SR-101. Sometimes, the way you word things might sound like you are saying SR-101 "Rusts like crazy" or SR-101 isn't NEARLY tough enough or in the same leaque of toughness as SR-77.

Other times, you are very good about clearly stating simple facts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

But, when it comes to "Facts", I just wanted to point out that YES, while SR-77 is more corrosion resistant and all tests we know of indicate that SR-77 is a bit tougher, these "Facts", while relevant, are only relevant in a small way compared to the big picture.

SR-77 may be tougher, but SR-101 is still PLENTY tough for most. A LOT of people have BEATEN the snot out of SR-101 AND pryed with SR-101 and they still hold.

Corrosion resistance may very well be a worthy factor to consider for some.
SR-77 may be more resistant to corrosion, but not by a huge difference. Both will rust and I think it is VERY fair to point out SR-101 is noticalby more corrosion resistant than MANY very popular knife steels. I just wanted to point that out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Some people like yourself obviously want to KNOW their knife is tougher or as tough as you can buy... even if they might not apparently need any tougher than SR-101. (Point in case: you own and use SR-101, but you haven't broken it either.)
But, if it comes down to just wanting to "Know" you own and use the "toughest", you are right. You are "Full within your rights" to have your preferences. I am fine with that.

I am just trying to make sure that for those who are here on the forums and don't yet know how to compare both steels, they have as accurate a comparison as we can provide.

Sometimes, "our" convictions (including my own) can be misleading - even if we don't intend to be misleading.

In the end, both steels are AT THE TOP of the knife steels in the industry in toughness. But, neither is stainless.

My attempt was just to be "More" clear and accurate as possible about the "Facts". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />





Well said. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />





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