Gideon,

Along the lines of "Respectful" debate <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> :




I have to “respectfully” disagree with at least part of your comments about the relevance of the different choil shapes on the S5.



I VERY much disagree with that.


Good photo-sketch for comparison by the way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />:



You say:


And


And




So, I am trying to piece all of the above comments together in my mind.

On one hand, it sounds like you are saying: you don’t care for or need the S5 to offer small detail / small utility function because you always carry a smaller knife to handle those chores…. And since you don’t need the S5 for smaller utility task/chores you don’t intend to ever use the choil so you don’t care how it is shaped or where it is placed (?????? – if I am interpreting that correctly ?????)

Fine – I guess. To each his own......

*****But, nowhere did I get the sense you felt the square choil was “Better” in any way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> You just seem to imply it just doesn’t matter to you since you probably won’t use it (?????)

I guess any way I slice it, the ONLY reason I can figure that you would be O.K. with the square choil over a much ergonomically improved closer in and rounded choil is that you like the aesthetics of the square choil (???????) – Again, to each his own. I prefer Fit, Feel & Function as my first priorities still. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

------------------

******** AND quite honestly, I actually "PREFER" the aesthetics of the closer in rounded choil over the square choil anyway. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

------------------

But, even for those who would for some reason choose aesthetics over Fit, Feel & Function, I will never understand that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

For anyone who would chose aesthetics as a priority over Fit, Feel and Function:

******** That is about as sensible to me as choosing uncomfortable “Fashionable” shoes over comfortable functional shoes for hiking! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/loopy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


Also, in regards to the S5 not being a “woodcraft” blade. To some degree, I agree with you. However, in many ways I DISAGREE with you. I have an Aurora and a couple of other worthy Buschraft/Woodcraft blades. One of my favorites is actually my Canadian Special (after some slight rounding of the belly of the handle). I LOVE that knife. I agree that the “Traditional” shape of a Woodcraft/Bushcraft knife does have relevance and some advantages vs. other designs when used for “Certain” tasks. However, the S5 isn’t trying to be a Woodcraft/Bushcraft knife. And even if it isn’t, the design is STILL a design that can handle MOST if not all Bushcraft/Woodcraft tasks and quite well. While a traditional Bushcraft/Woodcraft knife might slightly excel at some tasks, in my opinion, I can also see where the S5 might excel at other tasks. So, design changes = compromises & variety. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

I like the Blade shape of the S5 a LOT for MANY my uses! And I like the Mudder grips paired with the blade. I mentioned a long time ago that I would love to see that blade shape attached to micarta as well. But, I wanted the tang skeletonized to save weight and offer improved balance. I don't generally care to have overly heavy handled smaller knives. The Mudders are light in the handle and comfortable. So, a VERY worthy option! And I am VERY confident the S5 will balance VERY well in the hand... although, I would still like the skeletonized micarta version someday as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" /> ... Maybe it is coming in the "Rodent Series" in the next few years or something. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

However, whether the S5 is Bushcrafty / Woodscrafty or NOT is irrelevant to me.
I still view the S5 as a VERY worthy and functional knife. And what “IS” relevant is FIT, FEEL and FUNCTION. And for my part, I think the choil is the one thing that can definitely be improved upon over the prototype – to offer improved FF&F. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

I appreciate aesthetics and I admit that “both” aesthetics and FF&F are all subjective. But, for my part, FF&F are FIRST priority – For a user, Aesthetics are a bonus if I can get them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

For me, there is NO question that a smaller guard that brings the choil in closer and with a rounded choil vs. a square choil are BOTH relevant to a significantly improved Fit, Feel in my hand and Function in use. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

And, while you say the S5 is not a “Woodcraft” knife and imply that the choil shape, size and distance from the handle is irrelevant, I disagree with that too.
To me, it still comes down to being a USER. While you might not have any intentions to use the S5 for ANY Bushcraft chores, as a USER knife, I can't imagine not having a situation where I want to choke up into the choil from time to time. And if so, I want the choil placement, shape, design to be as ideal as possible.

I personally ALWAYS get annoyed with most any choil that is too large or too far away from the handle or doesn’t allow me to have the blades edge right close to my hand when choked up.

Sadly, my list of Busse and Kin knives with choils that I have had to modify and live with being less than ideal is longer than I like. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
And even sadder, is the number of Busse and kin knives that I have had to pass on or have had to get rid of because I did NOT like the choils. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" />

**** If done wrong, a choil is a feature that can significantly detract from a knife in many ways – IMO! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" />

I can often live with or modify a choil on 7” or larger knives enough to be
"O.K." with. But, even then, I often wish it had been done right to begin with.
However, if a 5” or smaller knife has a bad choil, it tends to be a thorn in my side when I use it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbdn.gif" alt="" />


While I might find a way modify or improve the square choil on the S5 to live with it - if the S5 is going to have a square choil, I am certain I would always be wishing it had been done right to begin with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

IMO, the closer the choil is to the handle, the better. IMO, the Bog Dog and SS4 WERE DONE RIGHT!!! – And about as good as they can be. I have NOT had to make modifications to those two and I LIKE how they are. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" />

Interestingly, the MPLE has a unique small choil like I have never seen that works very well for its size and on the MPLE. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> But, I wouldn’t want that mini choil on the S5.

If I am going to have any choil at all on my knife, I want it done right – as comfortable as possible, with as little blade edge waste as possible. Otherwise, I will inevitably always notice and wish that it doesn’t fit and feel just right and wastes potential function.

The main problem with less than ideal choils is they are often hard to modify/fix to make right.

I might not like the thumb ramp on the S5 - not sure yet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> But, if I don’t, I know that removing that little ramp is a VERY easy modification to fix. Unfortunately, NOT the same for a choil. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I have mentioned I have a Bog Dog and an SS4. I actually frequently choke up on those two knives and use the choil. The Mudder grips are very conducive to choking up into the choil. But, part of that is having a choil that fits and feels right to choke up into.

The S5 will have a beafier blade than the Bog Dog. I wouldn’t be surprised if the S5’s blade is a bit longer than the Bog Dog’s blade as well. But, any way you slice it, the S5 will be a good bit smaller and lighter than the S6 and the S5 will be much more of a utility use knife (Woodscrafty or not!). As such, for my part, I want as IDEAL a choil as possible in Fit, Feel and Function. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crossfingers.gif" alt="" />

.